Not many people can lay claim to attempting a “citizen’s arrest” of the nation’s banking bosses. But it’s par for the course for Michael Moore, the controversial film maker whose latest documentary on the financial crisis takes a harsh look at capitalism — and Wall Street banks like Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America and JPMorgan Chase.
In “Capitalism: A Love Story,” which had its New York premiere this week, Mr. Moore contends that capitalism has failed to create the kind of just society the country’s founders envisioned, and that the big banks have essentially co-opted the government.
Mr. Moore spoke with DealBook yesterday about his film; below are edited and condensed excerpts from the discussion.
In your film you point out the deficiencies of capitalism. What economic system do you think is best and why?
Well, we haven’t invented it yet. Here’s what I don’t think works: An economic system that was founded in the 16th century and another that was founded in the 19th century. I’m tired of this discussion of capitalism and socialism; we live in the 21st century, we need an economic system that has democracy as its underpinnings and an ethical code.
Before you made the film you sent out a call to Wall Street professionals to be whistleblowers, but there didn’t seem to be any new information in the film which had not already been reported. Was Wall Street not very forthcoming?
When I asked for the whistleblowers to come forward, I kid you not, I received 22,000 e-mails. Now, obviously not all 22,000 of them work on Wall Street. But I could have done four more movies on the information that was given to me or things that were said to me, but it didn’t really relate to the thrust of the story I was telling.
It isn’t so much about what’s new – I think a lot of people know that this is going on, but its more about doing the kind of follow-up that doesn’t happen in journalism these days. Part of my job is to read the paper, watch C-Span and show things that haven’t been shown or were buried.
In the film, you march up to the headquarters of nearly every major Wall Street bank and financial firms to make a “citizen’s arrest” of the chief executive. Do you really believe the chief executives of the major banks should be locked up?
I wasn’t going to convict them. I just do what policemen do when you have a suspect, when you think something is amiss – the police have a right to bring you in. And that is what I would like to see happen.
Morgan Stanley actually called the police and I asked the officers to take over and handle the arrest for me – naturally, they refused.
What role do you think Goldman Sachs had in the financial crisis?
It appears they have a lot to do with it – I don’t know and you don’t know, but I’m calling and other people are calling for an investigation of this.
The Justice Department needs to investigate how Goldman Sachs was able to steer things in such a manner through their former employees in the Bush administration, so that in the end Goldman’s competitors have disappeared and Goldman is left standing.
To allow for Goldman to essentially double-dip where they got their $10 billion in the TARP money but that they also got to collect another $10 billion in insurance money from A.I.G., which is essentially our TARP money – how did that happen?
Some people might say: “Well Goldman paid the money back – with interest.” They just posted a second quarter with record earnings. I don’t know if I am as smart as Goldman, but Cyrus, if you give me $20 billion today and I hang on to it for 9 months or so – I can see what I can do with it.
There is a scene in the film where you mention that Goldman Sachs employees were a big source of President Obama’s contributions during the last election cycle. Do you believe the President was wrong to take that money?
I really see an audience of one for that scene (President Obama). I want him to know that we know that Goldman was his single-largest contributor and what he does with that is his choice – he can choose to side with them or with us.
It seems that a lot of the anger over the bailout and the crisis has eased as the markets have recovered. Are you concerned that the government will not step up and reform the financial system?
First, the market recovery is a bit of an illusion because the other shoes haven’t dropped yet like the massive credit card debt that can never be repaid and the commercial real-estate bubble.
Of course they are not going to revamp the system. The banking industry and these financial institutions have been lobbying and spending millions of dollars in the last year to guarantee that no new regulations have been put in place.
Real change will only happen when the people demand it and the people are going to have to demand more than a few new rules at this point.
So how can the people ‘rise up’ in your view?
By electing representatives that have this one piece in their platform: The removal of money from our political system. You literally have to take money out and publicly finance elections like other western democracies. When we remove money, our political leaders will listen to us and not Wall Street.
You equated the bank bailout to a heist in the film. What do you believe would have happened if the banks had not been bailed out?
Well, it shouldn’t be an either or. What we should have done what we did in the 80s during the savings and loan crisis — the government should have taken receivership of these banks and financial institutions and sifted through who has to stay and who has to go. But what we did was write blank checks to everybody.
You mention in the film that the United States may have experienced a financial coup d’etat. What did you mean?
Wall Street, the banks, and corporate America, has been able to call the shots here. They control our members of Congress and they get what they want. I mean, 75 percent of this country wants universal health care, but it looks like we aren’t going to get it again — how does that happen? Well it happens when the health care industry spends a million dollars a day on lobbyists. That’s how it happens.
So until we get the money out of politics, the coup d’etat that has taken place by those with the money are really running the democracy.
— Cyrus Sanati
Comments are no longer being accepted.