Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram/Proposed decision

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

Active arbiters

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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@GoldenRing: it appears the number of active arbs listed on the talk page conflicts with the template on the proposed decision page. 129.22.99.147 (talk) 16:55, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

 Fixed – bradv🍁 20:12, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Will the WMF / T&S honor the result?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Jimbo made a comment that he fully supports the Arbcom to make a binding decision here, but have you (the Arb Com) received a committment from the WMF that they will honor the decision? I've rechecked the Board and Katherine Maher's statement but there is no mention that they would accept anything. I was not able to find any additional statements since Maher's. I am not sure many would support the ban to remain in place given the quality of the evidence submitted. Mr Ernie (talk) 07:14, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I fully expect WMF to honour ArbCom's decision, regardless of what it is. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:27, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

From the board statement. We support ArbCom reviewing this ban. We have asked T&S to work with the English Wikipedia ArbCom to review this case. We encourage Arbcom to assess the length and scope of Fram’s ban, based on the case materials that can be released to the committee. While the review is ongoing, Fram’s ban will remain in effect, although Arbcom and T&S may need ways to allow Fram to participate in the proceedings.

I've always taken "review" to mean "assessment with change if necessary", which fits nicely with mention of length and scope - length could be reduce to zero or time served, or indeed indefinite, scope works with more tailored arbcom solutions. So, no, I've seen no commitment outside this statement, but I take this statement as that commitment. Worm^TT(talk) 07:57, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Also, I can neither imagine Jimbo walking back from his commitment to support any decision ArbCom makes nor the WMF going against Jimbo's explicit wishes in this case. Regards SoWhy 08:10, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

the WMF going against Jimbo's explicit wishes in this case He has no legal right to dictate policy to the WMF, and the WMF treating him as their agent by tacitly endorsing his "personal guarantee" is rather frightening from a corporate governance perspective. It makes me seriously wonder what, if anything, the community-elected board members and executive director even do.
The more serious question, and one that I expect will go ignored given the general lack of interest in process, is whether the Foundation will accept and respect all the findings, rather than merely the result. The way the Board Statement is written, I honestly expect the answer is no: They're supporting review of the ban. Not anything else T&S has done, not anything else they have done, etc. So a finding that T&S engaged in misconduct or harmed the community? I expect it'll be ignored. A principle that the community requires public evidence wherever possible? I expect that will be ignored as well. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 22:12, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

More relevant question may be whether the community (to be specific, the 40-50 or so who have vociferously campaigned in this case), will be willing to accept anything other than "time served" and formal restoration of Admin. rights. Leaky caldron (talk) 13:32, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Nobody should be supporting a 1 year ban, given the evidence posted. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:52, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I Oppose a "time served" finding. That finding implies that the ban was justified but too lengthy. Assuming that there isn't some other evidence that we haven't heard about, the T&S ban should be vacated, not converted to time served. While the actual effect on Fram being able to edit is the same either way, vacating the ban sends a clear message to T&S that converting to time served does not. Then again, if Arbcom does decide that they would have given Fram a short block if they had gotten the case first, time served would be correct and vacated would be misleading. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:53, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I strongly feel that the result should be accepted whatever it is. ArbCom is empowered to make these kinds of decisions. --Yair rand (talk) 22:39, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Outside of decisions directly about Fram, I will be very interested in whether any principles or constructive findings about the WMF's actions in this case could be at least a starting point for discussions between WMF and the community regarding primary jurisdiction over the handling of conduct issues on en WP in more general terms, because that is clearly what is needed as a next step. Otherwise we will just be back here again soonish, and another unappealable WMF ban for a conduct issue would create a further crisis for many editors. I think WMF's aggregation of additional powers outside its previous scope needs to be pared back to what it was before; dealing with child protection, legal issues etc, but not conduct issues the community should deal with. This will need to happen alongside a discussion about how to better define and enforce community standards of conduct around incivility and harassment. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:02, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Comments by Hlevy2

Word limit on comments (outside of Arbcom proceedings)
If the Arbcom wishes to place an increased emphasis on civility, that goal is not furthered by artificial word count limits. In many cases, Fram correctly views the position of another participant in a discussion as wrong. Rather than curtly pointing out the error, a more polite approach would be to provide reasons, examples and perhaps a more wordy phrasing. Regardless of Fram's writing style, this would be a dangerous precedent to set, because once the word count limit is applied more broadly, talk page, ANI and other discussions would go from being a collegial discussion to a telegraphic tweet war. We do not want that, and civility involves the potential of wordiness, including phrases like "with all due respect..." and "I hear what you are saying but..." and "I understand your position to be X, but Y is a better view." Perhaps the ArbCom should impose a minimum word count requirement rather than a maximum in order to assure more polite modes of communication. However, since there are no findings of fact related to Fram's word count conduct, I am not in a position to judge what was intended. Thank you for your consideration. Hlevy2 (talk) 14:54, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Redacted Materials and Objectve Standards
FoF6 says, "These unredacted materials show a pattern..." If Arbcom never saw the unredacted materials, you probably mean "These redacted materials...." I am also troubled by evaluating redacted materials where the name of the complainant is withheld. It is impossible to find "harassment" without evaluating the conduct of both parties and whether the wikihounding was centered on related matters or following an editor to unrelated matters. If BLP are involved, then Fram and other admins are held to a higher standard to act quickly to prevent harm to third parties. Also, if the editor or subject matter is the subject of special enforcement, discretionary sanctions, or other restrictions, that would be relevant, although potentially hidden by redacting the names. Finally, all FoFs should be framed in terms of the Arbcom looking at the facts objectively, rather than from the subjective point of view of the unnamed party feeling harassed. The finding of facts and principles should be consistent and emphasize an objective standard for evaluating an admin who tries to solve the problems created by a chronically problematic editor. Many thanks. Hlevy2 (talk) 23:09, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

To your first sentence: the unredacted portion of the partially-redacted materials shows this pattern. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:31, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Kusma

Remedies 2b and 2c - clarification?

These sections seem to make slightly different findings of facts (which don't belong here anyway), but isn't the remedy the same (confirmation of desysop, allowing RfA)? Or does 2b say that a Fram RFA should start immediately at the close of the case, and 2c says Fram is free to start an RfA at a time of his choice? —Kusma (t·c) 15:26, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I hope that my comments on the case page answer your question, but the idea was 2b is "refer desysop to full community " - effectively enforced reconfirmation RfA, whereas 2c is "confirm desysop, allow RfA". 2b doesn't require immediate RfA - Fram would be free to start it at the time of his choice, if ever. Worm^TT(talk) 08:43, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

@Worm That Turned: I don't see that as a fundamental difference, as we do not have a "community desysop" procedure that Fram could be referred to. —Kusma (t·c) 09:45, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Scope of ArbCom's authority
I believe it would be a lot better for ArbCom to fully own the outcome of this case and to demonstrate independence from the WMF. By not resysopping while some are admitting they would not support an ArbCom desyop (see SilkTork here), ArbCom is endorsing the T&S decision as "correct", no matter whether this is called 2b or 2c. Shouldn't WTT's argument "If we take the WMF out of the equation, a ban would likely not have happened - therefore the correct decision is to vacate the ban completely" also be applied here to mean "If we take the WMF out of the equation, a desysop would likely not have happened - therefore the correct decision is to vacate the desysop completely"? If it is not, then ArbCom should say clearly state that they are desyopping and be more precise in their reasoning (if it is for "behavior that is unpleasant, uncollegial, and arrogant" then a lot more admins need to be desysopped). —Kusma (t·c) 09:45, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Closure for Framgate and another WP:RFA
Independent of the question whether a desysop and RFA is fair to Fram, ArbCom should consider what is likely to happen in any future RfA. The community does not really know whether Fram has been desysopped for a cause the community finds convincing or because of (insert WP:ABF here). It is highly likely that the issues dodged by T&S not revealing anything will resurface again during RFA. Is it really wise to start another community discussion of this while keeping most of the underlying issues swept under the rug? —Kusma (t·c) 09:45, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Learning from this case: When does hounding start?
It is rather sad that we don't get any more concrete guidance on what is and isn't hounding out of this case, so we can learn how to be better admins and editors. Did Fram hound LH? Did Fram hound Cwm? Did Fram hound Jaguar? Did Kusma hound Jaguar? On a more constructive note, how can we support admins when they find issues in an editor's contributions so they don't get hit with unfounded accusations of hounding? Can we turn scrutiny of an editor's contributions into something more collegial than adversarial? —Kusma (t·c) 09:45, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Some good questions on WP:HOUNDING. The wording "This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance, or distress to the other editor", is probably not useful, and could be tightened up. The aim of following someone who is editing inappropriately may not be to cause distress, but to make and keep them aware of their inappropriate edits, but if repeatedly making someone aware of their errors is not making them change their editing pattern, then continuing to make them aware is now becoming counter-productive and simply turning nasty. Any issue which cannot be resolved by one individual (admin or otherwise) within a reasonable space of time should be brought to the attention of others, otherwise it can appear to be hounding (willfully causing distress) rather than usefully attempting to address the problem. SilkTork (talk) 10:17, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Mendaliv

Moved from Hlevy2's section

• It's a horrible idea no matter how you slice it. Enforcement will be a nightmare, especially when it comes to litigating what constitutes an "issue". Lawyers lick their lips at something so pregnant with fact issues, because this is something that will net you lots of billable hours. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 14:58, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Moved from Kusma's section

My take is that 2c is an endorsement of the desysop, while 2b is a "no decision" on the desysop. Think of reviews of umpire decisions in sporting events: 2b is saying "umpire's call" or "ruling on the field stands", 2c is saying "decision confirmed". You're right though, the difference is something that belongs in a FoF. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:28, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• You've got to be kidding me. This page has had posts for weeks without this sectioned discussion enforcement. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:37, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• @Mendaliv: Welcome to the proposed decision phase of the case. Sectioned discussion on the talk page for this phase is the norm. My apologies for not enforcing it for nearly an hour after the PD was posted; I was in a meeting and didn't get the email. GoldenRing (talk) 08:32, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by ONUnicorn

Moved from HLevy2's section

• I agree; this is a pointless restriction that will do little or nothing to improve things, and in some cases may make things worse. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 15:17, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Seraphimblade

So, two things. First off, the Committee should not punt on whether Fram's desysop was warranted or not. Either uphold it and formally desysop him, or find it wasn't warranted and overturn it. Second, principle 2 ("Wikimedia Foundation role") contains a factual error when it says The Wikimedia Foundation (WMF), sometimes referred to as the "Office," is the legal owner of the English Wikipedia website and infrastructure. While the Foundation does indeed own the physical infrastructure, contributors own both the social infrastructure and content, and each author owns their own contributions to it. The ToU have always been clear that, while contributors agree to license their content under a free license, they retain their ownership and copyright interest of that content. The WMF does not own Wikipedia, just the servers it currently runs on. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 15:45, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Seraphimblade, I hope I've made my thoughts clear on the pd page on why I'd prefer to pass it to the community. From a process point of view, Fram hasn't had a fair shake. Yet, reconfirmation RfAs can allow the community vote individually on their own standards. If they haven't seen actual evidence of misdemeanor, they can chose to ignore it. Arbcom doesn't have that luxury, we've seen it, but should not be taking it into account under our processes. Worm^TT(talk) 08:47, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Vanamonde

A remedy restricting Fram's participation on noticeboards seems off the mark to me. It both hampers discussion and doesn't get at the heart of the matter. If the problem is that Fram is being overzealous in their investigation and enforcement of behavioral problems with specific editors, why not simply prevent them from taking multiple admin actions against the same user? If that's not enough; require Fram to disengage from any long-term behavioral issue they find, and to instead bring any such to the community's attention? Vanamonde (Talk) 16:21, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Bovlb

FoF #4 (Community-provided evidence) says The Committee was not authorized to post, and therefore did not post, the case materials provided by the Office or a summary of that evidence. Separate from the issue of public posting of evidence, I think it is important to state explicitly whether Fram was given any opportunity to respond to this evidence.

FoF #6 (Evaluation of Office-provided case materials) is unclear on the issue of whether any of the alleged "borderline harassment" occurred after the "second private conduct warning". The phrasing suggests not, and that the ban was enacted because the abuse of the Committee was seen as a violation of the warnings, but it is not stated explicitly. I understand that the Committee is treading a fine line here in terms of revealing the content of the Office document, but I think this point cuts to the heart of the case because it bears directly on whether this was an issue that the Committee can and should handle.

Remedies #1b (Fram's 1 year ban is disproportionate), #1c (Fram's 1 year ban is justified), and #2c (Removal of sysop user-rights) are implicitly supported by FoF #6 (Evaluation of Office-provided case materials). This is important to note for a number of reasons:

1. As I understand it, Fram has had no opportunity to respond to the underlying evidence.
2. Per ARBPOL, basing decisions on such secret evidence is arguably outside the remit of the Committee.
3. At least one arbitrator has indicated (as part of a support) that the summary provided in FoF #6 is overstated.
4. Another arbitrator supporting FoF #6 has indicated that the public evidence should be given greater weight.

Remedy 3 (Fram restricted) seems unsupported by any finding of fact, or any evidence I have seen. In my experience, arbitrary restrictions of this type often lead to "gotcha" enforcement that does not serve the project. I'd rather see Fram reminded or even admonished about specifics.

Bovlb (talk) 18:02, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

We weren't allowed to give Fram anything more than the brief summary of the T&S evidence posted on the evidence page. I believe we've stated this publicly multiple times during the case. They responded to the summary in the evidence phase.

If your point 3 is referring to me, I don't think the summary is overstated. I think that terms like "harassment" and "abuse" are contextual and subjective. Personally I think they are little too strong in this case, but I can understand why others might see it differently, and more importantly some targets of Fram's behaviour did consider it as harassment. – Joe (talk) 18:31, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

@Joe Roe: Thanks for responding.

I believe we've stated this publicly multiple times during the case. — No doubt, but I meant that it is important to state this explicitly in the FoFs, analogous to #4's the Committee posted a summary of the community-provided evidence, as well as Fram's reply to that evidence.

I don't think the summary is overstated — You are, of course, the ultimate arbiter of what you meant to say, but I feel that phrases like "I would not call", "I don't consider", and "a little too strong" support the idea that the summary is overstated, in the sense that it is stated too strongly or is exaggerated.

Cheers, Bovlb (talk) 18:59, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• Regarding the "borderline harassment" that occurred after the second conduct warning - I believe the argument is that Fram's actions towards the committee and members in that period constituted similar behaviours - however, I don't recall any actions towards other users in that period, I'd have to double check. Worm^TT(talk) 08:53, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Mr Ernie

Would the Committee explicitly cite the evidence on the basis of which they support the de-sysop of Fram? This can be used as the (incredibly low) new bar for which cases regarding admin behavior can be brought before the committee. I've in mind half a dozen or so admins who should expect to be de-sysop'd quite quickly. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:19, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

As always, remedies follow from the principles and FoFs. Speaking for myself, I'd highlight principle 1, 5 & 6 and FoF 1, 5 & 6 as the reason for supporting remedy 2b/c.

Not to be pedantic, but we are also talking about whether to resysop Fram. They've already been desysopped by the WMF and we're now asked to consider whether to overturn that action. I've seen enough evidence of incivility that I'm not comfortable doing that without confirmation they have the community's support via an RfA. I'd have a higher bar for desysopping on ArbCom's initiative. – Joe (talk) 18:57, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

The well is too poisoned in this case for Fram's reconfirmation RFA to have any chance at succeeding. ArbCom needs to make the statement that the WMF desysop was not valid, and that it is up to the community to make the case Fram should not be an admin. You can't say the 1 year ban was unwarranted and vacate it, but uphold the WMF desysop. If Fram runs a reconfirmation RFA there would be many oppose votes saying the WMF removed the tools and that's good enough for them. If you want to proceed with upholding the desysop then please explicitly cite the behaviors from the evidence phase that support such an action. Citing a few generic FoF's isn't good enough. Mr Ernie (talk) 08:51, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Mr Ernie, there are some very broad strokes in that comment - The WMF removed the tools as part of a ban, which has since been vacated. They've made very little song and dance about the tools, and have seemed far more concerned about the ban in general. At the same time, having spent far more time reading discussions around this issue than I'd like, I've seen a general feeling from the community that the issue was far more about the process than the outcome. There have certainly been some editors who believe Fram to be an excellent admin, but equally there have been many who do not. The community should be able to make this final decision we saw it with Floqenbeam - the community has it's ability to make a considered decision, and it shouldn't be left to a few individuals. Worm^TT(talk) 08:59, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Cryptic

Is Remedy 3 (Fram restricted) meant to be 500 words per issue, or 500 words per issue per venue? It seems to me that both readings create perverse incentives - if the former, it encourages a malfeasant editor to stonewall Fram on user or article talk until he's out of words, so that he can't escalate to ANI; if the latter, it encourages Fram to escalate prematurely. Plus, either way, there'll be admins lining up to include the mandatory {{ANI-notice}} as counting against the 500-word user talk limit, not to mention the abhorrent and unreadable practice commonly seen at WP:ARC of keeping under 500 words by removing previous statements. —Cryptic 18:21, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Future Perfect at Sunrise

Clerks: please do not change this section into a "Statement by Fut.Perf"

Where has this horrible fashion sprung from, of enforcing comments in personal section format? This is a talk page, not a statements page. We talk here. That's the way this community chooses to provide feedback on things, by talking them out, in threaded dialogue. I can see no advantage in enforcing this exceptional format, other than as yet another demonstration of power by the arbs and their clerks. If the committee doesn't want to hear the community talk, they'd better say so up front. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:24, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Hey Future Perfect at Sunrise, I appreciate your concerns about the format. I also saw a comment above by Mendaliv about sectioned discussion, and it's clear that there's some frustration about the change, so I hope I can be somewhat helpful in my explanation.

Proposed decision talk pages are normally sectioned in almost every case. The reason it wasn't before here is that there wasn't a proposed decision. Arbitration pages exist to help the committee reach a fair, well-informed decision; in that process, community comments are highly valuable and deeply appreciated. We also know that these disputes can cause tempers to run hot; almost by definition, arbitration cases are centered on disputes that the community has been unable to resolve. The sole purpose of the PD talk is to provide comments to arbs to help them reach the best resolution possible; true debates serve no good purpose here. Non-arbs aren't your audience – I wager you'd agree that arguing with and convincing non-arbs on this talk page of your positions doesn't do you all that much good, since it's the arbs who'll be voting on this. And over many years of doing this, the committee has found that the most helpful comments for the arbs do not come in the form of threaded discussion. Is it possible to have unproductive heated arguments with sectioned discussion? Sure, but in our experience, it's much harder.

I think I speak for the clerks and the committee when I say that we don't give a damn about "power". It's an internet website, for Pete's sake; you must have a really low opinion of us if you think this is the only way we can get some sort of power rush. The arbitrators and clerks I've had the joy of working with over the last four and a half years have been good people, dedicated people, who do this difficult job because they believe in it. From what I can see, the job of an arbitrator is deeply unpleasant and the members of the committee do it because they think the work is important; anyone who wanted to do it to feel power wouldn't last a moment in the position.

Please know that out of respect for your request, I will not be changing your section title name. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 18:53, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm here now reading this page because I value the input of everyone. As Arbs our role is to make a final, binding decision. How we reach that decision is up to the individual Arb, but I don't think any of us reach a decision without taking the community's views into account. And we may change or amend a decision based on comments made by others: other Arbs, other community members, parties to the case. Having sectioned comments works better. As Kevin says, having a threaded discussion which can dissolve into an argument is not helpful. Folks can comment on each others' comments within their own section, so there's no censorship going on, just a method of organising feedback that has proved to work well. I hope that satisfies your query. Also, I hope as we move forward on the civility front, such comments as "yet another demonstration of power by the arbs and their clerks" will be universally found to be unacceptable. SilkTork (talk) 20:54, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by WBG

• Echo SBlade that the Committee should not punt on whether Fram's desysop was warranted or not. Either uphold it and formally desysop him, or find it wasn't warranted and overturn it. Joe's reply in the regard to Ernie is awful. ∯WBG^converse 19:13, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by 28bytes

• Why are there desysop PDs but no admonishment or reminder PDs on offer as alternatives? 28bytes (talk) 19:06, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

  There are 3 levels of desysop PD, restore, pass to community, desysop. This isn't the same as a normal "Desysop or oppose", where an alternative should be put forward. That said, I have been seriously considering an admonisment / warning remedy, which I may throw up soon. Worm^TT(talk) 09:02, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

• I encourage everyone, and especially the arbiters, to read and consider Newyorkbrad's comments below. NYB's workshop proposals were excellent and the committee is really missing an opportunity to bring this mess to a satisfactory conclusion by diverging from the sound principles, findings of facts, and remedies he offered there.

• I urge the committee to avoid any remedy that references "time served", as that would imply a 3-month siteban is an acceptable sanction supported by the public evidence, which it most definitely is not. Vacate it. 28bytes (talk) 22:46, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• Given finding of fact #5 ("...does not reflect any conduct for which desysopping would be a proportionate response"), the only way remedy #2c ("Removal of sysop user-rights") makes any sense is if the committee intends to desysop Fram (or "decline to resysop" him) based in large part on the secret T&S report that the community cannot vet. I sincerely hope the committee will not use this case to prop up the T&S desysop while at the same time acknowledging that the public evidence does not support such a sanction. 28bytes (talk) 02:43, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

• I'm also not thrilled with GorillaWarfare voting for a desysop, the entire public justification for which is the overturned blocks of two editors, one of whom is GorillaWarfare. (Remedy 2c lists only "The behaviour shown in the case materials" (which I presume is all private/secret) "combined with the overturned decisions mentioned in the community evidence", of which only Martinevans and GorillaWarfare are listed.) Considering that Fram's ban is widely considered (rightly or wrongly) to have been at least in part the result of having scrutinized the edits of someone connected to the WMF, it seems like preserving the appearance of impartiality could be given a little more consideration here. 28bytes (talk) 03:29, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

  I was a bit torn on whether to abstain on that FoF or not, because I happen to agree that Fram's block of me wasn't desysop-worthy (or worthy of any other sanction). I would have preferred it not have been included at all, especially since it's explicitly not supporting any remedies, though I do understand that the drafters wanted to be clear that tool misuse was no factor in the outcomes of this case. I had hoped that my comment about WP:ADMINCOND would make it clear that my vote was based on the conduct issues and independent of any tool use, as would my longer comment on the ban remedies. As for recusing on that particular remedy, it would be bizarre to feel impartial enough to vote on whether to impose the strongest sanction (siteban) but not so impartial that I could vote on a less severe sanction (requiring RfA before regaining sysop tools). GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:54, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

  Re it's explicitly not supporting any remedies; it's used to support remedy 2c, though, unless I'm misunderstanding? 28bytes (talk) 04:14, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Almond Plate

I would like to see the option of a Topic Ban from addressing other users' qualities and behaviour. Almond Plate (talk) 20:39, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• (@Jbhunley) It seems very unlikely that the person you mention filed a complaint. There are far more prominent candidates, none of which have been mentioned even once in this entire case. Almond Plate (talk) 00:47, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
• (@Jbhunley) It's not what has been communicated that tells the tale, but what hasn't been communicated. Since I believe that T&S and ArbCom have kept silent for good reasons I won't say anything more, but it didn't take much research. Almond Plate (talk) 01:52, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Ken Arromdee

"The behaviour shown in the case materials, combined with the overturned decisions mentioned in the community evidence, fall below the standards expected for an administrator. Accordingly, the committee declines to reinstate Fram's sysop userright." And two committee members already support this one.

So let me get this straight, evidence that neither Fram nor we can see or respond to shows problems, while evidence that we can see and respond to shows negligible problems, and committee members support punishment based on the evidence that we can't see or respond to? This amounts to basing the punishment entirely on secret evidence. Ken Arromdee (talk) 20:56, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Chowbok

LOL @SilkTork. "Anyone who claims we enjoy the arbitrary exercise of power will be promptly punished".—Chowbok ☠ 21:00, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Seren Dept

I don't have much to say about the case, but I read these all the time and I think the sectioning enhances community voices rather than silencing them. This way I don't have to search through a (typically interminable) discussion with a thousand indents, mostly paired with tangents, to figure out what one person actually thinks, or to refer to it after the discussion has taken place. Threaded discussion is vulnerable to distraction and derailing, and favors the loudest voices. If you want to hear from a wide sample, it helps when everyone has their own slot. Seren_Dept 21:02, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Newyorkbrad

I understand that the Committee remains limited in what can be disclosed from the Office-provided evidence. However, some of that evidence is the basis on which some arbitrators are voting to uphold Fram's desysopping. In general, except in extreme circumstances not present here, the Committee would not desysop an administrator without his or her having received some form of prior warning that his or her conduct was problematic.

Here, as correctly noted in the decision, Fram never received a formal warning from this Committee, although in a couple of instances there were comments by individual arbitrators suggesting a change of approach. Fram did receive the "conduct warnings" from the Office. In 2018, Fram suggested a willingness to reflect on the input he had received. Without having seen the Office-provided evidence, I would be hard-pressed to see a case for desysopping unless Fram engaged in serious misconduct after his having received these inputs rather than before. This is particularly so because while I have had my own disagreements with Fram and have not always appreciated the tone of his "voice" expressed to me and others, his goal throughout all of these matters has plainly been to ensure the quality of the encyclopedia we are working to create and maintain.

I anticipate the response that the community can decide whether Fram retains our confidence as an administrator by resubmitting himself to a new RfA. However, since non-arbitrators still do not and will not have access to all the evidence, this will be a problematic exercise. In addition, I anticipate that a new RfA for Fram would be bitterly divisive for the community. Among other concerns, I anticipate that the RfA discussion would likely become another platform for further wiki-political and wiki-constitutional issues that, while it was important that we discuss and come to consensus on in June and July, are largely played out at this time.

Unless there has been serious administrator misconduct by Fram in relatively recent times, which based on the public information I am frankly not seeing, I suggest that a reminder remedy such as the one in my workshop proposals would be a more proportionate result than confirmation of the desysop. It also bears emphasis that Fram has already been prevented from both editing and adminning for three months, which in and of itself is a substantial sanction, which will have occurred and cannot be undone whether or not the Committee ultimately agrees or disagrees with it. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:22, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by arkon

Just gotta say that any 'time served' votes won't line up with the evidence that has been shown to the community, which is kind of the whole point of this. Arkon (talk) 21:14, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Tryptofish

I want to sleep on it before offering some more substantive comments, but I'll just point out something minor for now. Partway through the FofFs, the header font size changes. It should be made consistent throughout the whole decision. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:39, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Tryptofish, fixed. – bradv🍁 21:46, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:48, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Ammarpad

I will echo other commenters above to say remedy 3 is not warranted, unfeasible and would not solve what it intends to. It also seems to not be supported by any Finding of Facts, so unclear how it crept in. There are more people out there who post more annoying wall of text than Fram had ever. I think what would be better than this is a remedy similar in design to Remedy #1.2 of GiantSnowman. The remedy should limit how far Fram can pursue an editor for infraction. For instance, it could say Fram could only do that once or twice, whereafter he must brought the attention of other admins to the issue for them to independently determine appropriate way forward. – Ammarpad (talk) 21:55, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I have had that in mind since quite early on, and am still wondering if I should propose such a remedy. However, what is giving me pause is that in this situation Fram is already desysopped, so we are not essentially in a position of deciding to vote to desysop him, we are in a position of deciding to vote to resysop him. If this were a regular case, given the evidence before us, I would not choose to desysop, and would look for a nuanced solution, such as the GiantSnowman one. However, in these circumstances, I feel an open dialogue between the community and Fram as regards his ongoing behaviour is probably the most appropriate solution. In a RfA I would support Fram if he could demonstrate that he has taken on board concerns about how strident and relentless he can be at times, and would be willing to back off. One incident which I'd like, in an RfA, to discuss with Fram, is when he used his admin tool to edit through full protection on an ArbCom page and revert a sitting Arbitrator [1]. I'd like to get his thinking on why he thought that was acceptable, rather than raising his concern with the Arb in question or with the Clerks. I think an RfA would give the community and Fram a more open opportunity than an Arb case to work through issues like that. People would be free to question, quite neutrally and directly, rather than the more awkward system here of presenting evidence. Presenting evidence implies we are looking to either damn or praise Fram. Asking questions is more in line with finding out what Fram himself was thinking. I think ArbCom cases could involve more actual dialogue between ArbCom and the involved parties than it does at present. SilkTork (talk) 23:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Jehochman

Using insider terminology is unwelcoming to newcomers. Please replace "wikihounding" with "hounding". The general principle is good. We should avoid throwing around the word "harassment" because it's an accusation of a crime, which is defamation per se in most jurisdictions when it's an untrue accusation. It is far better to use more specific terminology such as "hounding", "outing", "badgering", "baiting", "insulting" or "pestering". Jehochman ^Talk 23:04, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• I see a hole in your logic. If you don’t desysop based on any findings of fact, Fram is free to get his bit restored by any bureaucrat. Maybe WJBscribe will give it another try. Could you please either desysop properly, based on evidence you can cite, or else vacate the out of process desysop? My review finds that the evidence supports nothing, or at most a warning. We don’t desysop for one or two routine mistakes. As currently written 2b and 2c are non sequiturs. Also, GorillaWarfare should not be voting on this case since it’s now partially about her. Jehochman ^Talk 10:21, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Beeblebrox

Speaking as one of the people who went on strike over this, I am dismayed that the committee isn't leaning further in the direction of "undo everything the office did and call it a day". This wasn't a day in court for Fram, it is a second secret trial with invisible evidence. This isn't supposed to be how our processes work, with secret rules that nobody knows, evidence nobody can see, and no chance to face one's accusers. These are considered fundamental rights in any sort of proceeding with real interest in justice, and I strongly feel arbcom should basically declare a mistrial in this case and re-instate Fram.

I'd like to be clear that this isn't about Fram and how much we all love him, it's about the right way and the wrong way to do things. Don't be afraid of T&S, I think they got the message that they made a serious error here, don't compound it by following their lead. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:09, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by GMG

@Newyorkbrad: without his or her having received some form of prior warning that his or her conduct was problematic

If you don't consider (at a minimum) three ANI threads and three Arbitration requests to be an indication that there might be problematic behavior that needs to be addressed, then I'm inclined to think this represents a failing of ArbCom to be corrected, and not a noble precedent to be upheld. We can't treat our users as nuanced decision makers when they are faced with every-day issues, and yet treat them in problematic situations as brain dead robots who need punch cards filled out in sextuplet with a big glowing rubber stamp in order to realize there is some error. That defies common sense. There is no user for whom, in their fourth ANI thread, the most experienced among us jumps to their defense, saying that they were never explicitly admonished in the previous three, that further disruption would result in a TBAN, therefore TBANs should be off the table.

If you don't consider all of this mess as fair warning that there may be some problematic behavior that doesn't seem to have made an impact either: When is it not necessary to correct problematic edits someone else makes? Oh right, when they "feel" harassed, boohoo.

"Boo hoo" ... Boo hoo indeed. That's disgusting, and none of us ought to be in the business of defending it. If overly bureaucratic processes are defending it, then overly bureaucratic processes are the problem, and if we can't fix it then the Foundation should step in more and not less to fix a problem we apparently cannot. GMG^talk 23:17, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Comment by Jbhunley

Not the hill I would have chosen but as good as any I guess

Like everyone else here I do not want to cause Laura Hale unnecessary distress and like others I did not want to present counter-evidence to the portion of the T&S material which resulted in Frams warnings re her. I had hoped that ArbCom would not fall back to using the 'unknowable' to sanction and desysop a long serving and good faith editor. Since the voting is showing that the 'secret' evidence is being used to support a finding of 'desysop and time served' I want to ask ArbCom if they have independently validated the claims? Examined the motivations of the editor who, by all publicly known evidence, got the T&S investigation going? I hate to be able to focus only on a single person but it is reasonable to say she is, even if not primary, central to this case. (Out of politeness, sensitivity and brevity I'll skip that but I can put together as much evidence as you want to support this.)

A cursory examination, the minimum which ArbCom should have done, shows:

• Per meta:WikiWomenCamp/FAQ/Biographies/Laura Hale "She is the Wikipedian in Residence for the History of the Paralympic Movement in Australia project" Since her user page has been deleted I can not quote the time she says she ceased working as a WiR but I think it was 2012 +/- a year or so.
• Per the tender on Wikiversity as a Copy Writer she was budgeted $100.00/hr for "Wiki authoring, editing, uploading and formatting".

This matters because much of the conflict between her and Fram revolved around her editing of Paralympic athletes. We saw in the linked evidence that Fram suspected her of being a COI/PAID editor; asked her about it; and she said she was not. Whether this was true at the time is dificult to prove but there is direct evidence (Since she disclosed this relationship on-wiki this is not WP:OUTING unless you really want it to be) that Laura Hale continued to edit Wikipedia on behalf of the Australian Paralympic Committee. In fact their 2017-2018 Annual Report ^[2] says quite clearly, on p.54 under 'Knowledge Services':

• "Wikipedia articles about every member of the 2018 Australian Paralympic Team and 2018 Australian Commonwealth Games Team. Wikipedia articles created through the Australian Paralympic History Project continue to be collectively viewed around 120,000 times every month. This rate was exceeded considerably during the PyeongChang 2018 Paralympic Games and Gold Coast 2018 Commonwealth Games"
• "Patricia Ollerenshaw, Greg Blood, Ross Mallett, Laura Hale and Graham Pearce remain major individual contributors to the Project."^{emp. mine}

Now, there has been much gnashing of teeth and rending of cloths that these secret bans can be abused by paid editors to bully anyone who challenges them. That was probably seen as hyperbole by most yet here we have, at least the very strong appearance, of this not being something that might happen but rather something that has happened.

Maybe those complaints to were not about protecting a $100/hr job but it sure looks like it and because of the structure of this process both the community and ArbCom have not been allowed the opportunity to find out. Regrettably some of ArbCom are basing their decisions on this un-examined and un-questioned evidence. That is not right so I am now putting this issue up for the community and ArbCom to examine.

How much trust do you have in a redacted document which was produced by an arm of the Foundation whose Board Chairman has been alleged to have a personal COI with the complaining individual. Especially when that individual may have been making $100/hr for years from the work Fram was calling into question. I am glad I am not in your shoes but, if LH has indeed been being paid by the APC to edit up until 2018 or further, then the case should, at a minimum, be decided entirely on the public evidence and the appearance of potential improper use of T&S for personal financial gain should be taken up by the Foundation Board.

To be clear; I am not presenting this in an attempt to tarnish reputations or harass. Nor am I drawing any inferences or conclusions. I have no intention of presenting any material about linked accounts, even those disclosed on-wiki. Jbh ^Talk 00:30, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

• @Almond Plate: Well, from commons:User talk:Fram we have the text of what Fram says is a communication from T&S in March 2019:

  ""However, in the hopes of avoiding any future issues and in the spirit of Laura’s own request on her talk page, we would like to ask that you refrain from making changes to content that she produces, in any way (directly or indirectly), from this point on. This includes but is not limited to direct editing of it, tagging, nominating for deletion, etc. If you happen to find issues with Laura’s content, we suggest that you instead leave it for others to review and handle as they see fit. This approach will allow you to continue to do good work while reducing the potential for conflict between you and Laura.

  We hope for your cooperation with the above request, so as to avoid any sanctions from our end in the future. To be clear, we are not placing an interaction ban between you and Laura at this time. We ask that her request to stay away from her and the content she creates be respected, so that there is no need for any form of intervention or punitive actions from our end.

  Then from T&S, evidently after the ban was placed.

  "This decision has come following extensive review of your conduct on that project and is an escalation to the Foundation’s past efforts to encourage course correction, including a conduct warning issued to you on April 2018 and a conduct warning reminder issued to you on March 2019. ""

  Now, maybe Fram is lying but I'll take him at his word. Especially since no one has challenged it in all this time. Jbh ^Talk 00:59, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Guy Macon

I would encourage Arbcom to pay careful attention to the comments by Jbhunley. I was struggling with how to phrase pretty much the same thing, and he put it better than I could. These are issues that really need to be addressed. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:38, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Capeo

ArbCom needs to fully vacate this office action, which would included resysyopping Fram. I understand that Arbs have already said there was more to the private evidence than Fram’s conflict with Laura Hale, but the simple fact is the WMF’s first secret action was stepping in to defend Laura Hale, whose editing was decidedly substandard, and who was repeatedly evasive about if she was being compensated for editing. On top of that is the massive personal COI between Laura Hale and Maria Sefidari (aka Raystorm; aka WMF chairman of the board) that’s existed for years though never disclosed anywhere onwiki, even when Raystorm was telling Fram to leave Laura Hale alone onwiki. The admission of this COI is offwiki, so I won’t link to here, but I find it hard to believe ArbCom is unaware of it.

So we have the first flexing of the WMF’s new enforcement mechanism being used to create a secret one-way IBan favoring an editor that has a personal undisclosed COI with the chairman of the WMF board. An editor that was already shown to have another personal undisclosed COI in an Arb case by the way, yet somehow avoided any sanctions back then. The optics are dismal. No matter whatever else was in the T&S dossier, their first action regarding Fram was to protect Laura Hale, not anyone else who had contacted them. Just vacate all of this and remove this residue of problematic COIs and nepotism that the WMF clearly disregarded. If you feel that Fram’s incivility is problematic, and I wouldn’t disagree, then a “final chance” admonishment could be in order. As NYB points out, there have been no formal ArbCom warnings against Fram to date and I certainly don’t see a case for desysop based on anything brought to ArbCom prior to now. Fram’s going to be on the shortest of short leashes at this point. Capeo (talk) 05:23, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Barkeep49

I can't see all the evidence and so I am comfortable trusting the people we've elected, who can see all the evidence, to make a judicious decision. But I am confused by the reasoning that seems to be on offer from Joe, SilkTork, and GW around whether to restore Fram's bit. If I understand it correctly the thinking seems to be "We wouldn't have removed sysop from Fram, but we also don't feel comfortable restoring it." If that's correct, I'm coming up short of understanding it. By way of hypothetical: Crat A IAR desysops Sysop Z, Crat B reverses as out of order, and Crat C IAR restores and that is the status quo when it gets to ArbCom. Would we really get an outcome in regards to Admin Z of, "Well Crat A and C shouldn't have desysopped. But we're troubled by some stuff Admin Z did so we're not going to give the bit back." I just have hard time believing that is what ArbCom would say. If the intent of those arbs, however, is to let the community decide the issue, well fair enough. I would suggest the committee own it in a statement along the lines of "Given the widespread interest and attention in this case, ArbCom wishes to entrust the decision about whether to restore Fram as an administrator to the community in the same way that the WMF entrusted the Committee to evaluate the ban and deysopping." This seems in keeping with proposed Principle 2 and proposed Finding of Fact 3 and is admittedly basically proposed remedy 2b. If the feeling, on the other hand, is that Fram deserves to lose the sysop toolkit based on the totality of evidence well I will trust the committee. And if the feeling is that some sort of admonishment and review is right, then do that. I see nothing in the Board's or Katherine's statements that would indicate they're standing behind the desysopping in a different manner than the 1 year ban. Alternatively we (and maybe they) could think of the desysopping as part of the 1 year ban and thus fair game for ArbCom to decide. This is ArbCom's action and ArbCom, in the spirit of self governance that I and so many others wanted, will own that decision one way or another. As such, I hope they own a decision that they're proud of. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 06:13, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I could go along with something like "ArbCom wishes to entrust the decision about whether to restore Fram as an administrator to the community." My comment on the PD page was "the community should decide if they have confidence that he will adjust his behavior going forward" which, I think, is saying the same thing.

My thinking here is that the "behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others" aspect of WP:ADMINCOND aligns with WP:CIVIL's "Participate in a respectful and considerate way." This is a community ethos. We the community create the working environment and atmosphere here. We are all responsible for that. A body such as WMF or ArbCom cannot enforce a community spirit. The community needs to do that. And not just in this one case, but all the time, every day. It can be difficult even for naturally polite people to not get involved in making rude comments in an environment which tolerates such behaviour. We are social animals, and most of us tend to follow the same trends in clothing, food, music, and manners of speaking. Fram is a committed, hard working and skillful editor who I want back as an admin. But I want him back with the community's support, and with the community, not ArbCom or WMF, indicating that they want Fram to tone down his criticisms. SilkTork (talk) 09:07, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Ken Arromdee

"I can trust them to use the secret evidence" is, I think, misplaced trust. Not because they are untrustworthy, but because the very nature of secret evidence means that neither the subject nor the wider community is able to find flaws with it or point out context, and whether they can do so can make a vast difference in whether shaky evidence goes through, regardless of how honest the people evaluating the secret evidence are. Ken Arromdee (talk) 10:26, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Boing!

Firstly, I want to thank ArbCom for what they are doing here. In very difficult circumstances, you have made, I think, an extremely good job of this. I also hope that those who had been slagging off ArbCom as stooges of WMF/T&S, as following secret instructions from WMF, and as only intending to support the T&S actions are taking note.

Saying all that, I share the concerns of NYB and others regarding the desysop. Even if you think Fram has violated the requirements on admin behaviour sufficiently to lose admin rights, the desysop was done entirely outside of accepted processes, and I think it should be reversed for that simple reason. Should Fram's behaviour not be up to admin standards, I think that's something for the community/ArbCom to decide in the future.

Finally, I'm very disturbed by what JBH said above, and it does raise the question of impropriety by WMF/T&S - who absolutely needed to be 100% squeaky clean in all of this. Given the close contacts described, given the very specific warning given to Fram (which *was* centralised on Laura Hale, no matter what other complaints were made by others), I can't help feeling there's a good case for the involvement of WMF/T&S in the disciplinary action on Fram to be entirely vacated - the only exception I can think of is if there had been egregious and/or off-wiki harassment/hounding/whatever by Fram, which you say there was not. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:17, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I'll just add one other thing, that I think the T&S actions have severely damaged the trust the en.wiki community might previously have had in the team. I think that's a shame, because what they do in general is very necessary and the individual members of the team are all good folk (at least, those I know of from their wider activity). Though this case can not offer judgments on T&S, I hope the T&S team will reflect on what's happened here and consider whether they have suffered from a failure of leadership that has resulted in a case of authoritarian overreach. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:28, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

@Worm That Turned: While I understand the sentiment, I don't think remedy 2b makes any sense. It leaves the desysop in place and means Fram must run an RfA to get it back - exactly the same as 2c. If you genuinely want to hand the sysop question over to the community, I think you should restore the status quo ante and leave it to the community to decide whether to bring a desysop case, in line with standard accepted processes. Oh, and if the desysop was not voluntary on Fram's request, it's not a reconfirmation RfA. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:24, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Boing! said Zebedee, Reconfirmation RfAs do happen though - and the community is often willing to give a little leeway to them, knowing that the Administrator has made enemies. This is a place where consensus can work, that we have a process that will allow the community to have a proper say on Fram as administrator, not on the T&S action.

The fact is that the community had a chance to bring any evidence during this case, but declined to - largely because they just wanted to watch and see what happened. I doubt the committee would accept a replacement case in the near future regarding desysop - under a double jeopardy thinking.

I can see I'm shouting against the storm on this issue though - so I'll leave it as is. Worm^TT(talk) 09:26, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

@Worm That Turned: Yes, I know reconfirmation RfAs happen, but this would not be one - not if Fram has already been desysoped and forced to run again. And if the community did not bring up any evidence to support desysop this time, then give Fram the admin bit back. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:39, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

@Worm That Turned: (sorry for another ping). I think the key point here is that Fram did not lose the admin bit through any community-accepted process and that wrong should be righted, regardless of Fram's suitability as an admin. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:42, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

• Responding to the idea of resysop after 1-year - that would be endorsing T&S's right to impose such a sanction in the first place, and we have no community-accepted process that gives them that right. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:02, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Haukurth

I appreciate that ArbCom has had a difficult task here. They were handed a plane that was already on fire and asked to land it. I don't envy the arbs and I thank them for taking on this task and many other thankless tasks and doing them as well as they can.

I share the concerns expressed by many here that ArbCom could stand to address the issue of Fram's sysop status more explicitly and clearly. Fram currently doesn't have the bit because User:Maxim and User:Primefac decided to re-remove it on June 26 after User:WJBscribe had restored it on June 25. What would ArbCom be doing now if pro-bit crats had instead prevailed in that little back-and-forth? Shouldn't the result be the same either way? You have full authority to decide the outcome of the case. Haukur (talk) 08:46, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

If Fram still had the admin tool set we would be looking at a different scenario and would devise a different solution. Speaking for myself, I am responding to the situation we have in front of us, and given the circumstances, I feel it's in the best interest of the community moving forward if the community had an open dialogue with Fram regarding the admin tool set. I am realist enough to expect that a Fram RfA would result in a lot of Support votes in protest at what the Foundation have done, but I also have faith that a significant portion of the community would ask Fram pertinent questions as to how he would conduct himself moving forward, and that such questions from the community, which he values, would carry more weight with him than opinions or diktats imposed by bodies such as WMF or ArbCom. SilkTork (talk) 09:21, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

User:Gadfium's idea of granting Fram the bit back after one year has passed from the T&S action is interesting. I guess that would be the "ruling on the field stands" result, to borrow User:Mendaliv's formulation. If a permanent desysop was never anyone's plan that would be a weird outcome now. Haukur (talk) 09:57, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Dweller

I'm late to re-enter this party, but am puzzled by this. It seems unrelated to any Finding of Fact, and as such appears bizarrely random. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:54, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Iridescent

Is the SilkTork who just said My thinking here is that the "behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others" aspect of WP:ADMINCOND aligns with WP:CIVIL's "Participate in a respectful and considerate way." This is a community ethos. We the community create the working environment and atmosphere here. We are all responsible for that. A body such as WMF or ArbCom cannot enforce a community spirit. The community needs to do that. And not just in this one case, but all the time, every day. any relation to the SilkTork who turned up on my talkpage four months ago ranting and swearing like a drunken sailor on the grounds that I'd mentioned his name without his permission? ‑ Iridescent 09:22, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Gadfium

It appears at this time that arbs are reluctant to restore admin rights to Fram, but Worm suggested in proposed remedies 2c that Fram might have been resysopped immediately after the WMF ban expired had this case not proceeded. I suggest an alternative remedy of Fram being resysopped one year after the WMF action. There is precedent for an automatic resysop after a fixed time, some years ago with Slim Virgin.-gadfium 09:27, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I cannot state for certain what would have happened if Fram had sat out the block. I believe the T&S intention was to return the user-rights, but the community generally takes a dim view of blocked administrators. That said... I hadn't thought of the 1 year desysop idea, I certainly could support it. Worm^TT(talk) 09:30, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Ymblanter

@Opabinia regalis:, I am pretty sure in Proposed remedies 2c you meant "second choice after 2".--Ymblanter (talk) 09:30, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comments by WJBscribe

Wow. If someone's contributions to this project are problematic - say because they are poorly written, inaccurate, or fail to address our policies - our administrators should feel confident in challenging that person. Dealing with good faith but misguided contributors is a tricky area many admins shy away from. If there is no improvement in the underlying editing, they should feel comfortable continuing to challenge such contributors. I would expect to see a progressive escalation of the feedback/warnings being provided. If the problem contributor "doesn't get it", the problem may well have to be explained in blunt terms. If the problem contributor is made uncomfortable contributing as a result, so be it. I do not think that administrators should have to hold back from correctly challenging others because doing so might cause "distress". The integrity of the encyclopedia ought to be more important than giving everyone contributing a warm fuzzy feeling. If it had been shown that Fram had "hounded" (I use the term loosely) a good productive contributor with unfair or unjustified criticism of their editing, I could support sanctions. But that is not case contained in any finding of fact. The high water mark is apparently "excessively highlighting their failures" (my emphasis). For Fram to be desysopped (let us not pretend ArbCom isn't doing that whether 2(b) or 2(c) passes) for defending the best interests of this project too much / too strongly (?) is a sad day and I imagine will have a chilling effect on how other administrators deal with problematic contributors going forwards. WJBscribe (talk) 10:52, 6 September 2019 (UTC)