Talk:Fez, Morocco

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Fez, Morocco/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mertbiol (talk · contribs) 08:36, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Initial comments

This seems like a very well written article. On an initial read through, there are two unreferenced sections towards the end of the article - Sport and Notable people. Before I provide detailed comments, I would ask the nominator to add citations to these two sections. Thanks and best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 08:36, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@Mertbiol: Thanks for taking this review. I added sources to the sport section. It's my understanding lists of notable people who already have Wikipedia articles do not require additional sourcing so long as their connection to the article is easily apparent. ––FormalDude talk 08:57, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @FormalDude: Can you point me to the policy which says that "lists of notable people who already have Wikipedia articles do not require additional sourcing so long as their connection to the article is easily apparent" please? I have not come across this before. My feeling is that each entry should be expanded along the lines of:

• Abdelkrim Rais (1912-1996) - Writer and musician, director of the Academy of Music of Fez, born and died in the city^[ref]

which makes clear the individual's connection with the city, without a reader needing to click away from the article. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 09:02, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

That's just what I see in practice at pretty much any article of a place that has a notable people section. ––FormalDude talk 09:07, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi @FormalDude: Here are some US cities with articles rated at GA - Everett WA, Galveston TX, Edmonds WA - all three have fully referenced "Notable people" sections. Can you provide some examples of GA or FA city articles which have an unreferenced "Notable People" section please? Mertbiol (talk) 09:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

You're right. I've updated the section. ––FormalDude talk 10:29, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you @FormalDude:. That looks good now. I will remove the "citations needed" template. Mertbiol (talk) 19:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Lead section

• Per WP:LEADCITE, citations in the lead section should be avoided. Reference 4 and should be moved to the Demographics section and the claim "It is the second largest city in Morocco after Casablanca" should be duplicated there. (The population given in the Demographics section is from 2014, whereas the one in the lead section is from 2020.)

Not done. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and direct quotations, should be supported by an inline citation. Fez being the second largest city in Morocco is a possibly moot claim. ––FormalDude talk 20:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Note: In case it's worth clarifying this, I think Fez is sometimes described as third largest (or less) because if you measure metropolitan areas then the twin cities of Rabat and Salé together are the second largest instead, but because they're split into two different municipalities (I'm not sure of the exact administrative terminology) then the Fes municipality has a higher population than either one and comes second. (This looks to be true with the numbers at List of cities in Morocco.) Also the lead sentence says "2020" but the citation is the 2014 census (and I may be wrong but I think there's not been an official census since 2014). R Prazeres (talk) 07:36, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest you rephrase "Fez is situated at a crossroad connecting the important cities of different regions" to "Fez is linked to several cities in different regions." or similar.

Done. ––FormalDude talk 20:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest you rephrase "and 387 km (240 mi) from Marrakesh to the southwest which leads to the Trans-Saharan trade route" to "The Trans-Saharan trade route may be accessed via Marrakesh, which is 387 km (240 mi) to the south west." or similar.

Done. ––FormalDude talk 20:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest that you start a new paragraph with "Fez reached its zenith in the Marinid era"

Done. ––FormalDude talk 20:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest you rephrase "These buildings are counted among the hallmarks of Moorish and Moroccan architectural styles." to "These buildings are characteristic of Moorish and Moroccan architectural styles." or similar.

Not done. Fez, in many cases, is the place that Moorish and Moroccan styles originated from, so I'd say 'among the hallmarks' is verifiable and objective wording. ––FormalDude talk 20:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest you split the sentence starting "Fez largely declined..." into two.

Done. ––FormalDude talk 20:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• "University of Al Quaraouiyine" links via a redirect to "University of al-Qarawiyyin".

The University is also properly referred to as "Al Quaraouiyine". ––FormalDude talk

• Again, as per WP:LEADCITE, please move references 5 and 6 to the main text.

Not done for same reason as reference 4. Significant claims requires inline citation for verification. ––FormalDude talk 20:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• I am not sure that the fact that the city's "nicknames" are shared with Cyrene in Libya is sufficiently important to include in the lead section. (If there was a comparison between the two (e.g. in terms of their architectural styles) in the main body, then that would be OK I feel.)

Done. ––FormalDude talk 20:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 19:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Etymology

• Should "Fes", as alternative spelling of "Fez" and "Fas" be included here?

 Done ––FormalDude talk 21:49, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• Please provide more details for Reference 8 "The Travels of Ibn Battuta"

 Note: @Mertbiol: I'm having trouble verifying that "Legends say Idris I of Morocco used a silver and gold pickaxe to create the lines of the city." ––FormalDude talk 21:49, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

@FormalDude: If it helps, I have some sources that can address this (both French though): Gaudio 1982, p. 26, and Bressolette 2016 (I have the Kindle version so unsure about page number). Both report that there are multiple different versions of a story involving a pickaxe, not just one (they don't include the version currently described in the article but they provide others). If you want, I can update this part to explain that briefly and add those sources. "Ibn Battuta" is a 14th-century primary source and probably shouldn't be cited like this anyways unless we're actually quoting him directly. R Prazeres (talk) 06:48, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

@R Prazeres: That would be great. Thanks for your assistance. ––FormalDude talk 06:52, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Done. Feel free to tinker with the new wording as needed. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 07:06, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest that rough dates are given for the period of the "Idrisid dynasty".

 Done ––FormalDude talk 21:49, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "During Isidrid rule" to "During this period," or similar to avoid repeating "Isidrid".

 Done ––FormalDude talk 21:49, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest you rewrite "It wasn't until" in a more formal style.

 Done ––FormalDude talk 21:49, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• Would "cities" be a better word than "agglomerations" in the final sentence?

 Done 100% cities is better. ––FormalDude talk 21:49, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 20:04, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

History: Foundation and the Isidrids

• References 12 and 14 require page numbers at the end of the first paragraph.

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• The break between the first and second paragraphs seems to be in the wrong place. Would the break be better placed after "in conflict with one another", so that paragraph 2 focuses on the population?

Not done: I think the split between the first and second paragraph can stay the same, as the first paragraph describes strictly the foundation of the city while the second one describes its subsequent early development. However, I've also deleted the sentence there about "in conflict with one another" because that issue is mentioned in more details later. Hopefully this makes the progression of the text easier to follow. R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• Reference 16 at the end of the first sentence of the current second paragraph requires a page number

 Done (Removed citation since first one covers same info more relevantly.) R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• The first sentence of the current second paragraph is very long. Could the expulsion of the Andalusi families from Coroba and Kairouan be covered in a footnote?

 Done: Didn't footnote it but divided the sentence into multiple sentences, and integrated a later sentence into them in the process, with citations adjusted. R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest you remove the sentence "The area was blessed with water flowing everywhere."

 Done + Note: I deleted this whole paragraph. It's a little superfluous and out of order, and personally I feel some of the numbers should undergo more verification, which can be dealt with on the main history page if needed. That incidentally took care of some of the next points. R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• "suqs" should be wikilinked to bazaar

See previous response. R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• "The city grew quickly and by the late 900s, it had about 100,000 inhabitants." Which city? The rest of the paragraph is about both Madinat Fas and Al-'Aliya.

See previous response. R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest you rephrase "Upon the death" to "Following the death"

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest you delete "dynasty's" from "dynasty's territory"

 Done + Note: Instead of "dynasty's territory" I just put "region". I felt "territory" on its own was unclear, "region" hopefully makes clear it's the surrounding territory. Maybe "Idrisid territory" or something like that would be better? R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• References 22 and 19 at the end of the fourth paragraph require page numbers

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• Reference 14 at the start and at the end of the fifth paragraph requires page numbers

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• Please clarify what is meant by an "ephemeral Fatimad takeover" would "brief period of Fatimad rule" be better?

 Done Did some additional rewording around the sentence. Let me know if it needs more work. R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest you rephrase "was responsible for many important infrastructural works necessary to accommodate Fez's growing population" to "was responsible for improving the city's infrastructure" or similar.

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest you rephrase "water distribution infrastructure" to water distribution system/network" or similar to avoid repetition of "infrastructure/infrastructural"

 Done (Reworded to "water supply system".) R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest you change "Thus, the two cities became increasingly integrated into each other" to "The two cities became increasingly integrated" and remove "increasingly" from the second half of the sentence.

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest you change "allowed for easier traffic between the two shores." to "allowed for easier passage between the two." or similar

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• References 12 and 27 require page numbers in the final paragraph of this section.

 Done (Removed one of the citations as it didn't seem to add any information to the others.) R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest you remove "however" from "A decade after Dunas, however, between 1059 and 1061"

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 20:29, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Just to help out, I can carry out these changes myself and also for the rest of the history subsections (as well as the landmarks section, as needed). Much of the content there was added or revised by me at some point and I have most of the referenced sources at hand (the lack of page numbers is my fault too, for that matter). Assuming there's no rush, it may take me a few days or more before I get the chance; I'll keep an eye on any future comments on the other sections.

One minor question (maybe for @Mertbiol:): it may be easier to just convert some of these citations to sfn format now, but I'm wondering if doing that means that all the other references would need to be converted as well for consistency? (If so, then I'll avoid converting them unless there's consensus to do so as that would be a lot of work.) Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 21:22, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi @R Prazeres: Thanks for your message. Yes, I'm happy to let you and the nominator work on the referencing. There is no rush - I will give you both the time and space that you need to complete the task. I think for GA, you don't need to worry about using sfn format - consistency is more important. I will hold off on adding any further comments for the moment - please ping me, when you are ready for me to continue.

I think it is worth mentioning at this stage, that I am a little concerned about the size of the history and landmarks sections, which together account for almost 2/3rds of the article (when measured by character count). As you have indicated on the talk page, both sections focus primarily on the medina, with comparatively little about the more modern parts of the city. Given the existence of the History of Fez, Timeline of Fez, Architecture of Fez, Fes el Bali, Fes Jdid etc articles, I fear that this main article as it stands may not satisfy the "broad in its coverage" criterion. Perhaps the history and landmarks sections need to be cut down and sections dealing with the modern parts of the city expanded. (The Economy section is a good example - it is currently only two paragraphs, the first of which deals with the historical economy.) I would be interested to hear your thoughts at this stage. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 22:01, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I think parts that talk about the old medina can likely be moved to Fes el Bali. ––FormalDude talk 22:30, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, Mertbiol, that sounds good. For what it's worth, here are my thoughts: For the balance of information on the page, yes I still think ideally it should contain more information about the new city, although it may be difficult because the new city is mostly of local interest it seems and there's a lot less information published about it. Maybe searching through more local Moroccan media would help. It may not have many substantial landmarks but it'd be nice to maybe have an overview of its neighbourhoods for example. And yes, I think some of the history can be cut down since there's a page corresponding directly to that. It could just focus on the main events/changes. I'd maybe consult the talk page though before cutting the landmarks section significantly because I think general readers expect an overview on that page (at least that's my guess), but everything there is indeed covered in Architecture of Fez (which could even be renamed "Landmarks of Fez" for symmetry). R Prazeres (talk) 16:55, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Update: Implemented the feedback above. Added page numbers to everything I could. I also did some other minor clean-up along the way, in some cases did some more general rewording, and as mentioned above I even removed some less needed (or potentially less verifiable) statements.Feel free to let me know if there's anything I should revisit. If I have time later today I'll try going through the rest of the history sections and do some cutting and/or add missing page numbers, but if I don't do it today then I'll just wait until the next feedback arrives and do it then. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Update again: I've updated citations and added page numbers to the second history section ("Golden Age..."). I've also made some very minor cuts to non-essential details in the rest of the history section. That's all I have time for today though, so I'll wait for the next round of feedback before I do more. R Prazeres (talk) 21:46, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @R Prazeres: and @FormalDude: There are some more comments below. Mertbiol (talk) 10:12, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

History: Golden Age

• For the sentence: "Under Almohad rule the city grew to become one of the largest in the world between 1170 and 1180, with an estimated 200,000 people living there" the reference does not support the date range 1170-80 and simply says "During its heyday in the 12th century, Fez was briefly the world's largest city, with 200,000 denizens." I would suggest changing to "During the 12th century, the city was one of the largest in the world with an estimated population of 200,000." or similar.

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 16:32, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• In the sentence "In the wake of this Abu Yusuf Yaqub founded Fes Jdid as the new Marinid administrative and military centre." the term "Fes Jdid" is used, but "Fes el-Jdid]] is more commonly used in the article. I suggest changing to "Fes Jdid" to make terms consistent throughout.

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 16:32, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I am a little concerned about the use of the term "golden age" to describe the Marinid period. The O'Meara thesis (p78) suggests a golden age from 340-750/930-1350, which suggests an earlier start. I don't have access to the other two references, but can I ask you to check that they do define solely the Marinid period as the golden age? If they do support the Marinid period as the golden age, then the O'Meara thesis should not be used as a ref, but if they too give a broader date range, I would suggest deleting this sentence entirely.

Response: I think there's a misunderstanding here: on p.78 the author is discussing a group of Islamic texts which I guess had a "golden age" of sorts during that period in terms of how many were written. However on page 16, cited in the reference, O'Meara states about Fez: "[...] the Marinid age is a golden age for Fes, branding for it an identity that persists long after the Marinid themselves have perished", and adds in a footnote below: "References to Marinid Fes as a golden age are numerous, including [list of sources...]". (I removed p.22 from the citation as it doesn't seem relevant enough.) Whether "Golden Age" should be in the subsection title that also includes the Almoravid and Almohad periods may be up to question; there are references to Fez's prosperity in the Almohad period (and more could be added if needed), so it could be ok in a broader sense, but maybe it's slightly confusing. it could just be removed from the title unless there's a benefit to "golden age" being easy to find among the sections. R Prazeres (talk) 16:32, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I would suggest combining/reordering the sentences: "In the wake of this, Abu Yusuf Yaqub founded Fes Jdid as the new Marinid administrative and military centre. Fez reached its golden age in the Marinid period. It is from the Marinid period that Fez's reputation as an important intellectual centre largely dates. The madrasas are a hallmark of Marinid architecture. Many of the principal monuments in the medina date from the Marinid period. The madrasas are a hallmark of Marinid architecture. Between 1271 and 1357 seven madrasas were built in Fez, which are among the best examples of Moroccan architecture and some of the most richly decorated monuments in Fez." to become "Following the revolt, Abu Yusuf Yaqub founded Fes el-Jdid as the new administrative and military centre. Under the Marinids, many of the principal monuments in the medina were built and the city established its reputation as an important intellectual centre. Between 1271 and 1357 seven madrasas were built in Fez, which are among the best examples of Moroccan architecture and some of the most richly decorated monuments in Fez."

 Done + Note: Since the "golden age" statement was retained, I've moved it closer to the beginning of the paragraph for now, but let me know if it fits better elsewhere. R Prazeres (talk) 16:32, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest deleting "in 1465" after "The 1465 Moroccan revolt".

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 16:32, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest linking sultan in the first sentence of the final paragraph of this section. It was linked in the lead, but this is the first mention in the main body.

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 16:32, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• The page number of the O'Meara thesis in the reference at the end of the sentence "They faithfully (but for a large part unsuccessfully) continued Marinid policies." is wrong - I think it should be p15 not p5. I am unable to verify that the Wattasids were unsuccessful (or indeed faithful) in their attempt to continue Marinid policies - I would suggest deleting "faithfully" and "but for a large part unsuccessfully", unless a supporting reference can be added.

 Done and added some brief and more specific details to contextualize their reign. (Anyone can feel free to tinker with the wording.) R Prazeres (talk) 16:32, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 10:12, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

History: Sharifan rule

• I suggest changing "In the meanwhile" to "Around the same time|

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I would delete "in the 16th century" from the end of the second sentence.

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "They later retook the city" to "The Wattasids later retook the city"

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "The Ottomans would try to invade" to "The Ottomans attempted to invade"

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest linking suzerainty in the first paragraph.

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "where Abd al-Malik's army" to "in which Abd al-Malik's army".

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "Abd al-Malik himself also died during the battle" to "Abd al-Malik was killed during the battle"

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest placing the list of forts and bastions "These include the Kasbah Tamdert... updated to serve as defenses in the age of gunpowder." into a footnote.

 Done (plus simplified the wording of this passage) R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest giving the dates of the reign of Ahmad al-Mansur.

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "After his death things only worsened as Morocco plunged into anarchy" with "After his death, Morocco was plunged into anarchy"

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "Otherwise, however, the city benefitted from a long era of relative peace. It remained a major economic center of the region even during troubled times." to "However, the city benefitted from a long era of relative peace and remained a major economic center even during short periods of conflict." or similar.

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest replacing "as well as to expand the grounds of the Royal Palace a number of times" and "undertook a series of extensions of the Royal Palace grounds" or similar.

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• Please replace "The sultans and their entourage" with "The sultans and their entourages"

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comma required after "After Moulay Slimane's death"

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "Within this new corridor, between the two cities, were built new gardens and summer palaces used by the royals and the capital's high society," to "New gardens and summer palaces, used by the royals and the capital's high society, were built within the corridor"

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "This had the consequence of also splitting" to "The expansion separated"

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I think the term "Europe-allied" needs explanation. Which countries in Europe were allied to Adelaziz?

Revised: From reading the source, it doesn't seem that Abdelaziz was directly allied to any Europeans, only that he was under European influence and popularly seen as such. I've removed that adjective as the sentence is clear without it. I've added some details right after to clarify what the role of Fez was in these events. I removed the last sentence about Ahmed el-Hiba as it may have needed some corrections but isn't strictly relevant to Fez. R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "and established itself" to "and established a command centre"

 Done R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest linking "pretension" to pretender.

Sentence was removed as per revision described two points above. R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 10:14, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Note: Revisions above are done but when I have a chance I'll go back and add the page numbers to citations in this section too. I'll post a quick update here when I do. R Prazeres (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Update: I've now added page numbers everywhere I can to the citations in all the history sections. When we get to the landmarks section, I can do the same there. There were a couple of exceptions: Touri et al 2010 ("Maroc andalou : à la découverte d'un art de vivre", also available in English) I only have in Kindle format, which doesn't provide page numbers, and Aouchar 2005 ("Fès, Meknès") I unfortunately don't have with me anymore. I'm hoping this isn't significant, as they mostly support statements that are obvious or easily verifiable (e.g. that Fassis migrated to Rabat and Casablanca, or that the Alaouites restored monuments) and/or they're accompanied by other reliable citations. If it is a problem, some citations could be removed probably without too much of an issue. R Prazeres (talk) 18:53, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

History: Colonial rule, independence, present day

• I suggest that this section is split into two - the first part on the colonial period and the second on the post-independence period.

 Done. ––FormalDude talk 09:20, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

• The end of the first paragraph does not flow properly - there is a jump between the 1912 riots and the move of the capital to Rabat. Did the transfer of the capital occur in response to the riots, or was this unconnected? What year did the transfer of the capital take place?

 Fixed. ––FormalDude talk 10:12, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

• The second paragraph feels a little repetitive - it’s stated at least twice (and hinted at a third time) that the policy of preserving the medinas and building villes nouvelles next to them was deliberate. Could this paragraph be shortened?

 Done: I cut one sentence that was redundant. ––FormalDude talk 10:12, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

• The first half of the third paragraph appears to substantially repeat the themes of the second. Could this also be shortened?

Not done – please clarify: Not seeing anything blatantly repetitive. What are you concerned with specifically, @Mertbiol? ––FormalDude talk 10:26, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Removing the sentence in the preceding paragraph has eliminated the excess repetition and has resolved this issue. Thank you Mertbiol (talk) 17:05, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest deleting "–which were forced to remain stagnant in terms of urban development and architectural innovation–".

Not done – please clarify: Why is removing that text an improvement? ––FormalDude talk 10:26, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

@FormalDude: The full sentence reads: "Scholar Janet Abu-Lughod has argued that these policies created in Morocco a kind of urban "apartheid" between the indigenous Moroccan urban areas–which were forced to remain stagnant in terms of urban development and architectural innovation–and the new planned cities, which were mainly inhabited by Europeans, and which expanded to occupy lands formerly used by Moroccans outside the city." This is a very long sentence (58 words) and and includes three relative clauses (beginning with "which"). The sentence should be rewritten or divided into two. The fragment which I suggested removing - "which were forced to remain stagnant in terms of urban development and architectural innovation" does not really make sense and appears to repeat part of the preceding sentence which includes: "it also had other consequences in the long-term due to stalling urban development in these heritage areas."

It is up to you how you resolve the poor grammar and repetition in the sentence beginning "Scholar Janet Abu-Lughod...", but my suggestion to remove the fragment "which were forced to remain stagnant in terms of urban development and architectural innovation" would seem to be the easiest way of resolving these issues. Mertbiol (talk) 17:05, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done I reworded the sentence in a way that I believe resolves your concerns. ––FormalDude talk 00:08, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "In July 1930, the Al-Qarawiyyin's students and other inhabitants participated in protests against the Berber Dahir decreed by the French authorities in May of that year." to "In July 1930, the students and other inhabitants protested against the Berber Dahir, decreed by the French authorities in May of that year."

 Done. ––FormalDude talk 10:26, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "In 1937, the Al-Qarawiyyin mosque and R'cif Mosque were some of the rallying points for demonstrations in response to a violent crackdown on Moroccan protesters in the nearby city of Meknes, which ended with French troops being deployed across Fes el-Bali and at the mosques themselves." to "In 1937, the Al-Qarawiyyin Mosque and R'cif Mosque were rallying points for demonstrations against a violent crackdown on Moroccan protesters in the nearby city of Meknes, which ended with French troops being deployed across Fes el-Bali, including at the mosques themselves."

 Done. ––FormalDude talk 10:26, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "After Morocco regained its independence in 1956 many of the trends begun under colonial rule continued and accelerated during the second half of the 20th century." to "After Morocco regained its independence in 1956, many of the demographic and cultural changes begun under colonial rule continued."
• I suggest changing "In this period" to "From the 1960s to the 1980s, a period known as the Years of Lead," or "During the repressive reign of Hassan II (1961-1999) or else make it clear exactly what is meant by "this period".

Not done – please clarify: Which text do you want changed specifically? I don't think it says "in this period" in that section. ––FormalDude talk 10:26, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

@FormalDude: The first sentence of the second paragraph of the Independence and present day section begins "During this period". (Apologies I mistyped this as "In this period".) It is not clear what is meant by "this period" and the sentence then goes on to talk about the reign of Hassan II and the Years of Lead. "This period" could mean either of these periods, or the period under discussion in the previous paragraph. You need to clarify which period you are talking about in this paragraph. Mertbiol (talk) 17:05, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

It was meant to imply the post-independence period generally but I've gone ahead and removed that initial part of the sentence and reworded to simply focus on Hassan II's reign and the Years of Lead (a period within his reign, if that's not clear). Feel free to revise that wording again as needed. R Prazeres (talk) 17:30, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

• (See previous comment) Either give the dates of Hassan II's reign or the dates of the Years of Lead.

 Done. R Prazeres (talk) 17:19, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

• Could the section on the 1990 protests be cut down (maybe to only two sentences)?

 Done: information about the protests itself has been condensed but some more general context was added (including limited aftermath details as per comment below), with paragraph slightly shorter overall. R Prazeres (talk) 17:19, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest deleting "in turn" after "protest and rioting".

 Done. R Prazeres (talk) 17:19, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest changing "particularly symbols of wealth such as" to "including" (the end of the sentence makes it clear that the hotel is a luxury hotel).

 Done. R Prazeres (talk) 17:19, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

• What was the outcome of the 1990 riots - were there any changes in government policy?

Added a brief mention of the government's response and the opposition's reply, but I've found very little else about it in reliable sources. I've personally heard from Fassis that there were other consequences but that the subject has been somewhat taboo in Moroccan media, which might explain why it's hard to find out more. R Prazeres (talk) 17:22, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 12:01, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Geography

• Please change "much large Ville Nouvelle" to "much larger Ville Nouvelle"

 Done ––FormalDude talk 09:03, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

• Would it be better to say that "North west of the Middle Atlas mountains" (or similar) rather than "Located by the Atlas Mountains"?

 Done ––FormalDude talk 09:05, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

• The subdivisions section mentions the "prefecture", but this is the only occurrence of this term in the whole article as it stands. Are the boundaries of the prefecture and the city the same, or does the prefecture also include satellite towns etc? (See also comments on the next section.)
  

 Done: I've added some specifications to that effect, but see also my next comment below on the missing section. R Prazeres (talk) 19:32, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 12:05, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Missing section: Local government

Per WP:CITSTRUCT, a city article should have a distinct section on the structure of local government. (My personal feeling is that the governance section is best placed following the geography section, but I will the positioning up to you, as opinions differ.) The prefecture is mentioned in the Geography section, but nowhere else, and this needs further explanation here. Does the city have a mayor and/or a council? How long and the mayor's and councillors' terms of office? How many representatives does the city send to the national parliament? etc. I hope that this information would be relatively easy to find online.
Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 12:05, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

FormalDude might know more, but I've personally had some surprising difficulties getting a clear explanation of this so I'd welcome any help or further work. Hopefully there's an easy way to find out and I've just missed it. If helpful, here's what I know:

For the official census, the most relevant unit is the "prefecture", which encompasses the whole city and some satellite towns. When the census compares major cities, these are the administrative units it refers to. As far as I know, prefectures have their own governors and correspond to an actual administrative unit, if not necessarily to a "municipality" per se.

The census subdivides the prefecture into various urban "arrondissements" and rural "communes". What's not clear is if these two terms also correspond to actual administrative units or if they're just statistical divisions. One of these divisions, "Mechouar Fes Jdid", is labelled a "municipality" while the others aren't, and it's not clear to me why. This French Wikipedia article says that there are two urban municipalities (a.k.a."urban communes"), "Mechouar Fes Jdid" and "Fes", that make up the city of Fez -- not counting the nearby rural communes that are also inside the Prefecture of Fes. There's a local election for the position of mayor happening this month, and this article about it says there are 6 "arrondissemments" which make up the city and that elect the mayor. (It sounds like they elect the mayor indirectly by voting for parties that occupy seats on a Council.) So I can infer, but not confirm, that the 6 arrondissements listed on the main page (i.e. Agdal, Saiss, Fes-Medina, Jnan El Ouard, El Mariniyine, & Zouagha) probably make up the municipality of Fes, while Mechouar Fes Jdid might be its own separate municipality. (The latter might have a special status due to the presence of the Royal Palace, I'd guess.) A lot of this sounds like the administrative divisions in France, but I'm not sure if it is indeed modelled on that.

Side note: There was reorganization of Morocco's administrative divisions in 2015 (see here). I'm not sure if it affected anything at the prefecture level, but it might be worth checking that any information being added is up-to-date with this.

Looking forward to any clarifications, R Prazeres (talk) 19:29, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

It looks like Fez just recently elected a new mayor according to this https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2021/09/344513/rnis-abdeslam-bekkali-becomes-new-mayor-in-fez ––FormalDude talk 00:14, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I've posted a notice of this discussion at the talk page of WikiProject Morocco in case there's anyone there who could help with some of these questions (link here). Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 17:24, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Demographics

• I suggest moving the table in the Geography: Subdivisions subsection to here.
• The lead gives a population figure from 2020, but 2014 figures are given in this section. Please update.

Revised: After my comment on the same issue for the lead section above, I looked at the census sources again and it does clearly show and state that Fez is the third largest city (prefecture) by population. I've changed the lead statement to reflect that and removed the unsourced estimate for 2020. If a current unofficial estimate of the population is desirable, there are sources which give projections (e.g. [1], [2]), but I don't know if they're considered reliable. R Prazeres (talk) 17:56, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 12:05, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Current status of review

@Mertbiol: can you provide feedback on the next sections while we continue looking into a Government section? ––FormalDude talk 05:38, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

@FormalDude: Thanks for your message. I would prefer to wait for you to produce a "Government" section before I give you further detailed comments. If this section is not going to appear imminently, then my feeling is that it would be best for me to fail the nomination, to let you work further on improving the article without the pressure of a short review timescale and then you can renominate for a new reviewer.

Can you let me know if you will be able to write a Government section by 24 October (which will be four weeks after I flagged the need for that section) please? If that is not realistic, then I think it is best to fail the nomination on the grounds that the article does not meet criterion 3a (i.e. does not address the main aspects of the topic). (I think there may also still some missing page numbers for some of the refs.) Please let me know how you would like to proceed. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 07:10, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

That's fair enough for me, I've started drafting the section below. ––FormalDude talk 06:34, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Government section

This is what I've got so far. Maybe R Prazeres can help flesh it out.

Fez is governed by a city council, known as the communal council of Fez. The city council is responsible for electing a mayor.

In 2021, Abdeslam Bekkali, a member of the National Rally of Independents (RNI), secured the position as the new mayor of the city of Fez on September 20th. Bekkali succeeded Driss Azami El Idrissi and was elected by the Fez City Council with 60 votes out of a total of 91.

––FormalDude talk 06:34, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

After R Prazeres asked for help at WikiProject Morocco, I've started collecting sources for this section, and may be able to add something to the article as early as tonight (if not, then this weekend), incorporating the info above (although I don't think the precise tally of votes is necessary). I should be able to answer at least some of the questions posed by Mertbiol. I can also shed more light on the distinction between the city and the prefecture: I've been meaning to write an article on the latter for the longest time. Morocco is notorious for having one of the most complex systems of local government in the world. Cobblet (talk) 14:15, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the section you added, that's a big a help. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 23:47, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Landmarks

In general there seems to be a fair bit of overlinking in this section and also a fair amount of repetition of material from the History section. Please also check that page numbers of sources are given where necessary.

Medina of Fez

• Please remove links to Fes el-Bali, Isisdid dynasty, Fez el Jdid, French Protectorate of Morocco, medina, Dar al-Makhzen (Fez) – all of which have been linked to earlier
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• Please change "Fes el Jdid" to "Fes Jdid" for consistency with earlier sections.
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest removing "founded by the Idrisid dynasty", "in the late 8th and early 9th centuries" and "in the 13th century" from the first sentence, as this has been covered extensively in the History section.
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest removing "originally founded by the French" from the second sentence, as this has been covered extensively in the History section.
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest removing "enormous" as a descriptor of the size of the Royal Palace. If possible please give a quantitative measure of the area of the palace (in e.g. acres/hectares).
  •  Done. Added 195 acres and a source. ––FormalDude talk 07:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• Please add a reference to footnote b.
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest starting a new paragraph with "Fez is becoming an increasingly popular tourist destination".
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest changing "proclaimed" to either "designated" or "declared".
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest changing "World Cultural Heritage Site" to "World Heritage Site".
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Places of worship

• I suggest changing "Among the oldest mosques still standing today" to "Among the oldest standing today" at the start of the second sentence.
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:29, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• Is the descriptor "highly prestigious" for the Mosque of al-Qarawiyyin helpful? In what way is this mosque "prestigious"? There may be a better term to use or it might be best to leave this out altogether. (From the dates given, it is obvious that it is the oldest.)
  •  Done. I don't find the descriptor necessary. ––FormalDude talk 07:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest ending the second sentence with "the Bou Jeloud Mosque from the late 12th century" then I would add a third sentence to say "The Mosque of the Kasbah en-Nouar may have been founded in the Almohad period but was likely rebuilt much later." Might it be appropriate to put this new third sentence into a footnote?
  •  Not done. It seems more clear to me the way it is now. ––FormalDude talk 07:29, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest starting a new paragraph with "A number of mosques from the important Marinid era" and delete the word "important".
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:29, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• Please remove overlinking (e.g. Marinid, Fes Jdid)
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:29, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest removing "(exact date unconfirmed)" – it is clear that the date of construction of the al-Hamra Mosque is approximate.
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:29, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest ending the first sentence of the new second paragraph with "the al-Hamra Mosque from around the same period" then creating a new sentence "The Bab Guissa Mosque, was also founded in the reign of Abu al-Hasan (1331-1351) but was modified in later centuries." Again, please consider putting this new sentence in a footnote.
  •  Done. I have not put it in a footnote, but if someone would like to, that's fine by me. ––FormalDude talk 07:29, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• Please delete "(New City)" from the sentence "The Ville Nouvelle (New City) also includes many modern mosques" and add a reference at the end. (It might be worth adding the names of some important mosques in the Ville Nouvelle in a footnote here.)
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:29, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I've added a quick mention of the Imam Malil Mosque to this sentence, to provide an example and also because it's the largest one and seemingly the most important one (e.g. the king has made public appearances there). R Prazeres (talk) 23:11, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

• Please de-link Mellah.
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:29, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• When were there only 150 Moroccan Jews in Fez? Is this after independence or is this today?
  •  Done. Fixed tense. Source says 150 remain today. ––FormalDude talk 07:29, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest rephrasing the third and fourth sentences of the third paragraph to read "The Church of Saint Francis of Assisi, the only Catholic church in Fez, was established in 1919 or 1920, during the French colonial period. The current building was constructed in 1928 and expanded in 1933."
  •  Done. ––FormalDude talk 07:29, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I will comment on the rest of the Landmarks section in due course. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 12:06, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Madrassas

• Neither reference [9] nor [123] support the claims that Fez is a regional religious capital and that Fatima al-Fihri founded the Madrasa of al-Qarawiyyin.
  •  Done: Simply removed the "religious capital" claim as it's already more or less stated and sourced in the lead and it's not necessary here. Added sources for the foundation of the Qarawiyyin and made minor correction to date. R Prazeres (talk) 18:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest deleting "(13th-15th century)" in the third sentence, as it is clear from the History section when the Marinids ruled Fez.
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 18:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest moving the information about mosques founded by Abu al-Hassan in Salé and Meknes to a footnote.
  •  Done: I just removed this, it's not essential and reads fine without it. R Prazeres (talk) 18:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest removing the adjective "famed" from the description of the Bou Inania Madrassa.
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 18:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest rephrasing the penultimate sentence of the section to read "The library of al-Qarawiyyin, which holds a large collection of manuscripts from the medieval era, was also established under Marinid rule around 1350" or similar to improve readability.
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 18:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest rephrasing the final sentence of the section to read "The largest madrasa in the medina is Cherratine Madrasa, which was commissioned by the Alaouite sultan Al-Rashid in 1670 and is the only major non-Marinid foundation besides the Madrasa of al-Qarawiyyin" to improve readability.
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 18:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Fortifications

Since there is a separate article Fortifications of Fez and much of this material has been introduced in the History section, my feeling is that this subsection should be shortened to perhaps half the length. I suggest that you revise this subsection and then I will take another look once you have reduced the amount of repetition.

I've done some cutting to the section, so it's significantly shorter now and should be less repetitive. Feel free to review it. R Prazeres (talk) 16:48, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Tanneries

• I suggest that you combine the first two sentences to read "Since the city's foundation, the tanning industry has been continually operating in Fez and is considered one of the main tourist attractions" or similar.
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 18:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest linking hide to hide (skin).
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 18:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Tombs and mausoleums

• Please delink zawiya, Zawiya of Moudray Idriss II, Zawiya of Sidi Ahmed al-Tijani.
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 20:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• Ref [134] requires page numbers
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 20:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest you rephrase the first sentence of the second paragraph to read: "The old city contains several major historic cemeteries which formerly stood outside the main city walls, namely the cemeteries of Bab Ftouh (the most significant), Bab Mahrouk, and Bab Guissa" or similar.
  •  Done, but adjusted wording to reflect the fact that the cemeteries still stand outside the walls, not formerly. R Prazeres (talk) 20:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest you combine the second and third sentences of the second paragraph to read: "Some include marabouts or domed structures, containing the tombs of local Muslim saints (often considered Sufis), for example the Marabout of Sidi Harazem in the Bab Ftouh Cemetery" or similar.
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 20:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest you rephrase the final sentence of the second paragraph to read: "The ruins of the Marinid Tombs, built during the 14th century as a necropolis for the Marinid sultans, are close to the Bab Guissa cemetery" or similar. (If they are mentioned in the Landmarks section, there is no need to tell the reader that they are "well-known landmarks" today!
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 20:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Additional note: I've also moved this section up to right below the "Madrasas" section so that the subsections describing religious sites/structures are all grouped together. R Prazeres (talk) 20:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Gardens

• I suggest rephrasing the first two sentences to read: "The Jnane Sbile Garden, between Fes Jdid and Fes el-Bali, is the oldest surviving garden in Fez and was created as a royal park and garden in the 19th century by Sultan Moulay Hassan I."
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 20:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest replacing "were also accompanied by" with "also had".
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 20:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• Could "an area once known as al-'Uyun" be deleted?
  •  Done. Deleted, since more details are found at Fes el-Bali. R Prazeres (talk) 20:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Funduqs

• I am not sure it is necessary to include "foundouks" in the title of this subsection if also appears as an alternative to "funduqs" in the first sentence.
  •  Done. Agreed. R Prazeres (talk) 20:20, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest you rephrase the second sentence of this section to read: "These commercial buildings housed the workshops of artisans or provided lodging for merchants and travelers" to improve clarity.
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 20:20, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I would rephrase the fourth sentence to read: "The Funduq al-Najjariyyin was built in the 18th century by Amin Adiyil to provide accommodation and storage for merchants and now houses the Nejjarine Museum of Wooden Arts & Crafts" or similar. (It's obvious that it's famous if it's the first mentioned funduq in this subsection.)
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 20:20, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• Please also delink Funduq al-Najjariyyin.
  • Comment: Maybe this was in reference to an earlier version of the article as I only see one link to that page currently. No action taken. R Prazeres (talk) 20:20, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 18:11, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Hammams

• I suggest rephrasing the first sentence to read: "A number of historic hammams (public bathhouses) survive and continue to be used by local people."
  • Partly done: I've simplified the second part of the sentence using that wording but I've left the first part as is, since the wording reflects what the cited sources say about Fez (and Morocco) being distinguished by its exceptional preservation of hammams.
• Refs [142] and [145] require page numbers.
  • Comment: The numbers have changed during previous edits so I'm not sure which ones you meant; I've added page numbers for the article/chapter in one of the references (Terrasse 1950), while another (Sibley 2006) has no page numbers provided on the document (possibly because it's a conference paper, I'm not sure). Since they're all relatively short articles and available online (I've added a link to Sibley 2006), this doesn't strike me as a problem. R Prazeres (talk) 18:55, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• Please delete the word "notable" at the start of the second sentence.
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 18:55, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• Please rework the phrase "notable decoration" in the fifth sentence.
  •  Done. (Rephrased to "...feature more decoration.") R Prazeres (talk) 18:55, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest rephrasing the sixth sentence to read: "The hammams are identifiable from the exterior by the domes and vaults above their main chambers" or similar.
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 18:55, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I would suggest deleting the final three sentences starting "The warm and hot rooms were heated using a traditional hypocaust system..." as the content would appear to apply to all hammams and not specifically to those in Fez.
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 18:55, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Historic palaces and residences

• I suggest moving this subsection so that it appears before the "Gardens" subsection.
  •  Done. I was thinking the same. R Prazeres (talk) 19:19, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• I suggest you rephrase the fifth sentence to read: "The Jamai Palace was converted into a luxury hotel, known as Palais Jamaï, in the early 20th century."
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 19:19, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• Please make it clear that the Dar Batha museum is an archaeological museum.
  •  Done. Worded it differently as it's as much an art museum as an archeological museum (some pieces are from archeological surveys but many of the artifacts are just pieces from existing mosques and madrasas than were moved here for better preservation). Please feel free to further improve the wording as needed. R Prazeres (talk) 19:19, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• Please find a way to avoid describing the ornate gates of Dal al-Makhzen as "renowned".
  •  Done. Rephrased slightly to emphasize instead that the gates are the main thing feature of the palace which visitors can see. Again feel free to re-adjust wording as needed. R Prazeres (talk) 19:19, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Fortifications

Thank you to @R Prazeres: I think this subsection works much better now. Just a couple more comments:

• I suggest linking to Battlement – possibly from "crenelated walls" (i.e. [[battlement|crenelated walls]]).
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 18:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
• Please delete the phrase "Along with the city walls and gates," at the start of the first sentence of the second paragraph.
  •  Done. R Prazeres (talk) 18:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Additional landmarks

I suggest adding some of the following, which are in the Ville Nouvelle (they could be grouped together under one subheading in the Landmarks section or placed into a Culture section):

• Al Houria Cultural Complex
• House of the Qur'an
• Maison de la Culture
• French Institute Library
• Avenue Hassan II and Plaza de la Resistencia

Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 17:01, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I've started a new section on this, with initial information on Avenue Hassan II, its main plazas, and its main colonial-era landmarks. If you have any reliable sources that provide information on the other landmarks (including ones named above), it might be helpful to mention them here and myself or anyone else can use them to expand and revise the section. R Prazeres (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

PS: I've found some basic information at the Regional Council of Tourism website, but since it's sort of a promotional site it would be nice to have other sources. That would also help judge which places are more notable than others and worth inclduing. R Prazeres (talk) 22:20, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Culture section

Partly to address the suggestions in "Additional landmarks" above and also since most city articles have one, I've started a new "culture" section. I mentioned some of the cultural institutions suggested above (plus a couple more), and briefly covered major festivals (the World Sacred Music Festival is a fairly big deal or the city so it makes sense to include it). I'll add anything else I can if I find more information, but please do review, revise, and expand as you see fit. I hope this is helpful. R Prazeres (talk) 03:26, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Picking up the review again

After deliberately leaving this article for a week, I have read through it again in its entirety today. I think it is now very close to GA status. I am satisfied that with the additions by @R Prazeres: and @Cobblet: that the article now meets Criterion 3: Broad in its coverage. There are just a few more issues to address:

• The wording of the final two sentences of the "Language" subsection of the "Demographics" section is too close to reference [94] for my liking - please rephrase;
• There are a few errors in the references "External link in |website=" - please correct these;
• Please make sure that Ville Nouvelle is consistently italicized throughout the article.

With these minor issues, I will now place the review on hold. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 19:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I've reworded the two sentences in the "Language" section, italicized all "Ville Nouvelle" occurrences, and updated the External links section. For the latter though, I wasn't sure what you meant. I updated the ArchNet link and used the regular link syntax (instead of the citation format that was used), and I've removed the two other links since they're dead and the archived versions aren't useful (since they're just homepages and you can't go anywhere else). Please clarify if the errors are still present, or if you were referring to something about the in-text citations/references?

PS: I haven't found any other "official" site for Fez, but if anyone else knows it please add it. The only official-sounding websites Google finds, like this (French) or this (English), are clearly just more tourism portals, not actually websites for the municipality or prefecture. There is a page about Fès at the regional government's website here, but no link to a more local page that I can see. R Prazeres (talk) 17:34, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi @R Prazeres: Thanks for picking this up. It's references [174], [177] and [182] which are still giving the error "External link in |website=". Could you have another look please?

Thanks Mertbiol (talk) 17:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh, that makes more sense, sorry. Yes I've fixed those now. R Prazeres (talk) 17:50, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Final Verdict

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   Well referenced.

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Well referenced.

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   Well illustrated.

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   Well illustrated.

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

I've very much enjoyed reviewing this article. It has been a longer review than average, but I think the article as it stands is significantly improved from the point of nomination. A big thank you to @FormalDude:, @R Prazeres: and @Cobblet: for the work that they have put in. Good job!!! Congratulations and best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 19:14, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Likewise a big thank you to FormalDude for the nomination and the work you put in, to Cobblet for the help, and to Mertbiol for taking the time to do this careful review. This article has come a long way since I first started looking at it a few years ago and this process has been a big help. Cheers everyone, R Prazeres (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much Mertbiol for your diligent review. And thank you to R Prazeres and Cobblet for helping move this along! Great work. ––FormalDude talk 22:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Image of people

Hi FormalDude and FrauHole, I think the issue raised in this edit (now reverted) is legitimate. The image comes from Flickr, from an author who regularly marks their photos as freely-licensed, but just because the children wanted to have a picture taken at the time (which is something I've encountered often when traveling) doesn't mean in concrete terms that they have consented to have their picture on Wikipedia too. I think it's reasonable anywhere to assume that when you agree to let a private individual take a picture of you, you're not necessarily thinking about them licensing it for public use on a high-traffic website. I'm especially keeping in mind that they are children, without their parents present at the time most likely, so it's even more iffy. They might actually be happy to have their picture here, but we can't ask them either way. I don't think the guidelines on privacy address this situation specifically, but I think there's an common-sense ethical question here beyond the legal technicality of licensing. I prefer to err on the side of caution. What do others think? R Prazeres (talk) 15:02, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree. If it were adults, no problem. Children may not even be aware of the implications of a stranger taking a picture of them, let alone putting it online.-- Ideophagous (talk) 15:32, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

An alternative image with adults has been added in its place. Thanks, FrauHole. R Prazeres (talk) 05:30, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Art section

The art section is a little lacking, but I'm struggling to find good sources to expand upon it. Any help would be appreciated. More content about the Académie des Arts for example could be beneficial. ––FormalDude (talk) 18:35, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I've added a short bit about zellij, as the corresponding article already mentions the importance of Fez in this regard. There are other traditional crafts that may be worth mentioning, but many of them are also regional traditions so it may be hard to find information specific to Fez. It would indeed also be good to know more about local contemporary artists and/or performance arts (theatre, if significant, or music). R Prazeres (talk) 18:51, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, scrap that last part; I forgot that there's a music section already, so this section is more about visual arts. R Prazeres (talk) 18:53, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Images removed

I have removed the following images for copyright violations. Posting here in case anyone can remedy the copyright issues or find a freely licensed alternative.

• File:Abdication of Abd al-Hafid of Morocco (1912, Le Petit Journal).jpg – Published in 1912 with an unknown author, it cannot be assumed that 70 years have passed since the author's death.
• File:Gare de Fes 2011.jpg – This rail station was built in 2009 and copyright lasts 70 years after the death of the architect.

––FormalDude (talk) 02:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Not a big deal if we leave it out anyways, but the first one should be fine. For anonymous or collective works, it goes into public domain after 70 years (both in France and in the US). A 1912 newspaper should fall under that, and it's been marked as PD in Commons for a while. R Prazeres (talk) 02:47, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Good catch. I've updated the license for that image and restored it to the article. ––FormalDude (talk) 21:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)