Talk:Rafael Tolói

Requested move 17 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Reasonable arguments have been put forward on both sides, but the evidence does not unambiguously point to the "right" answer. No such user (talk) 13:34, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

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Rafael Tolói → Rafael Toloi – Appears to be the correct spelling of the subject's name. The websites for his current club and national team spell his name without the diacritic. The subject also spells his name without the diacritic on his Instagtram page. Mattythewhite (talk) 15:46, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 17:12, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support might be a 'Westernisation' (for want of a better term) of the name, similar to Erling Håland becoming Erling Haaland, but if that's what sources/the person are using, then so should we. GiantSnowman 17:15, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose UEFA.com. And pretty much all sources in Portuguese languague, which is his mother tongue. We all know that "foreign" media are careless about diacritics. The Replicator (talk) 17:19, 17 June 2021 (UTC) P.S.: And there's the part concerning Portuguese grammar. The stress is on the last syllable, so that requires the diacritic. Social media has no value on this. The Replicator (talk) 17:26, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nomination and GiantSnowman. Although the Portuguese surname "Tolói" is rendered with a diacritic in Portugal, subject's native language is Brazilian Portuguese and he plays for Italy. Thus, in the same manner that President Carter's National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzeziński dropped the Polish diacritic in his surname, the Brazilian footballer is not using the diacritic that other Portuguese speakers with this surname may continue to use. His choice should be respected and the diacritic should not be forced upon him. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:58, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

@Roman Spinner: What you are saying about European/Brazilian Portuguese is not true. I didn't make a distinction there nor did I mention European Portuguese at all. You can see the diacritic in Brazilian sources. Plus, UEFA.com uses it. The Replicator (talk) 20:04, 17 June 2021 (UTC) P.S.: "His choice"? Did you ask him? Once again, social media is not reliable. The Replicator (talk) 20:06, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

@The Replicator: As pointed out in the nomination, his "current club and national team spell his name without the diacritic. The subject also spells his name without the diacritic on his Instagtram page". I don't see how all three of these uses are possible without his support and participation. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:31, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

@Roman Spinner: Well, that's very naïve of you. Club and national team, that's laziness, and as you might expect, it's not the player's job to update data in their websites. Social media is not reliable. And isn't UEFA above both clubs and national associations? Would UEFA make up that diacritic? The Replicator (talk) 21:39, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

If the person becomes widely known in English-language sources without the diacritic, then the page can be appropriate to move. However, I see no clear preference in sources to use or exclude the diacritic. The fact that he plays for Italy does not mean we should ignore his proper name, the same goes for Thiago Alcântara, who was born to Brazilian parents and represents Spain internationally. Though in Spanish the name is "Alcántara", we use the native spelling "Alcântara" in the title. S.A. Julio (talk) 00:37, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

@The Replicator: No naïveté on my part. Rafael Toloi has lived in Italy for years — he is an Italian citizen. Italians do not generally use accents or diacritics in their names and Toloi may feel that by accenting his name he is also accenting the fact that he is still more Brazilian and South American than Italian or — perhaps those are not his motives. All we can see is that he is expressing his views on an Instagram page that has his unaccented name although many users of Instagram do use accents and / or diacritics in their names.

Furthermore, he was chosen as the team captain (with unaccented surname), while a number of the team's players, who originate from around the world, are listed below him with accents and diacritics in their names, thus accentuating the fact that the team has no issues with players displaying pride in their national origins within the orthography of their names. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:27, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

@Roman Spinner: Once again you are making assumptions and talking about his choices, which may or may not have taken place. The Replicator (talk) 12:49, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

@The Replicator: No assumption that Rafael Toloi is of Italian extraction and is an Italian citizen and that Italians don't add accents or diacritics to their names. It is also a fact that he issues public statements under an unaccented name. As for making assumptions, it is those who see surnames such as "Díaz". "Šerbedžija", "Brzeziński" or "Tolói", which use accents or diacritics in their native forms, and automatically assume that bearers of such surnames, who are citizens of countries that have a different orthography, are nevertheless inclined to inscribe their names in those names' original forms. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:36, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I don't think a player's name on social media should be regarded as the most authoritative source, for example Sergio Agüero's Twitter does not have a diaeresis, though clearly his surname is spelled "Agüero". S.A. Julio (talk) 22:06, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

And that makes a big difference in pronunciation. The diaresis there indicates that the "u" is not silent. The Replicator (talk) 23:11, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. From what I understand about accents, its use would be appropriate in his native Portuguese. I have also seen the accent on his jersey, similarly to his teammates whose names also have diacritics. However, his name is spelled without the accent on the club's official site, in contrast to his teammates. I would agree that the mainstream media is unreliable with this—for example, Gazzetta dello Sport has omitted the accents for Pašalić and Iličić—though I would consider the official club website a pretty reliable source for this. Net of everything, I'm not entirely sure one way or the other, though leaning weak support in light of some of the more reliable sources omitting the accent. ComplexRational (talk) 22:43, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

@ComplexRational: In light of you being more or less on the fence, I think that UEFA's stance in particular is more authoritative. The Replicator (talk) 23:11, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support. There seems no doubt as to the spelling of his common name in English. Its spelling in Portuguese would only be relevant if there were no English sources, and there are lots of them. Andrewa (talk) 18:07, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I see no clear indication that the common name in English is "Toloi". Many English language sites ([1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]) and news articles ([8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13]) use the Portuguese spelling. Just because he gained Italian citizenship does not mean the correct spelling of his name should be disregarded. László Kubala played for three national teams, the last of which was with Spain (who he earned the most caps with), though we use his native Hungarian name in the title (not "Ladislao Kubala"). And the name used on social media should not necessarily be considered authoritative, for example see Sergio Agüero's Twitter and İlkay Gündoğan's Twitter. S.A. Julio (talk) 15:16, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per the arguments put forward by S.A. Julio. --Leyo 09:02, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per arguments of S.A. Julio Piotr Bart (talk) 14:45, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.