Talk:Takfiri

Some more information

From de Volkskrant, "Vrouwen rond Hofstadgroep worstelen met verhoor" [Women surrounding Hofstad group wrestle with interrogation], by Volkskrant reporters Janny Groen and Annieke Kranenberg, published 3 Sept 2005:

"Takfiri verklaren andersdenkenden tot ongelovigen die bestreden, of zelfs gedood moeten worden. Zij mogen onder geen beding meewerken aan welk westers systeem dan ook. Westerse democratie en rechtsinstellingen zijn door mensen bedacht; takfiri zijn alleen verantwoording schuldig aan Allah.

Mohammed B. heeft zich als een voorbeeldige takfiri gedragen. Hij werkte niet mee aan verhoren, boycotte het psychiatrisch onderzoek en wilde zich niet door een advocaat laten vertegenwoordigen."

My rough translation:

"Takfiri consider people of a different opinion as unbelievers who have to be combatted or even killed. They must under no condition cooperate with any Western system whatsoever. Western democracy and institutions of justice are invented by humans; takfiri only answer to Allah.

Mohammed B. behaved as an examplar takfiri. He did not cooperate with interrogations, he boycotted the psychiatric investigation and he did not want to be represented by a lawyer."

Mohammed B. is the murderer of Theo van Gogh (film director), and the article is about the attitude of women who had been in contact with Mohammed B., particularly his former girl friend, during the police investigation. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 12:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Is this group identical with Takfir wal Hijra, or are they different? It's currently difficult to tell. —Charles P. (Mirv) 06:18, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Takfir wal Hijra

Seems fairly clear to me that someone intended this article to address the Takfir wal Hijra and didn't know much about that movement, so filled up the article with imprecations. This article should be turned into a redirect to Takfir wal Hijra. I don't think there's any real info here that needs to be saved. Zora 18:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Takfir wal Hijra

I'm going to merge any useful material with Takfir wal Hijra and redirect this article within a couple of days, unless I hear objections from other editors. Zora 01:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

No! Takfir wal-Hijra is one specific example of a takfiri organization. This article should be about takfiris in general, not just Takfir wal-Hijra. GCarty 12:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm ... takfiri is just one of the names Muslims call each other ... like munafiq, hypocrite. What movements other than Takfir wal Hijra do you consider takfiri? Zora 12:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm, I'd say Al-Qaeda in Iraq and the Groupe Islamique Armé are also examples of takfiri organizations. GCarty 16:23, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Takfiri Philosophy

Picking up from the above discussion, I think the term 'takfiri' as used between Muslims is more than a generic insult... it has become an important philosophical distinction for Muslims. There are some interesting parallels in Western philosophy. I don't know how appropriate it is to mix between civilizations, but I added links to Consequentialism and from "The ends justify the means" as related concepts. Comments? Spir 07:28, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the article is not worded neutrally, but makes pro-saudi statements such as this here:

"The act of accusing other Muslims of being takfiri has become a sectarian slur, particularly since the outbreak of the Syrian Civil War in 2011, as when used by Shi'a groups such as Hezbollah to refer indiscriminately to Sunnis." I don't think Wikipedia should pick a side, it should try to refer to things objectively from a neutral angle, and the way how the article is currently worded, contradicts this. 80.110.83.124 (talk) 00:35, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Major rewrite

I distinguished between two ways that the term is used today: in a neutral way, to refer to followers of Takfir wal-Hijra, and as an epithet, to be flung at Wahabis and Salafis. I tried to give a neutral account of its use as an epithet. However, the bits I wrote desperately need quotes and references. It's nearly 4 AM here and I have to get up and go to class in six hours, so I'll leave it here. I hope that those of you quarreling over this article will be willing to fill in the blanks in the sections for your own opinions, and will be able to refrain from removing the sections for those who don't share your opinions. Zora 13:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

For Admins, please take a look at the history of the article. Users such as User:Sun shinez forever, User:No problem 1254, User:Dreamz rosez, User:Heats of heaven, and possibly many others, were created as a revertign machine for this article. Not to mention his many random IPs. They are probably sockpuppets of a radical user with an obious agenda. As User:Zora said: The article is being used to attack religious groups with which the editor does not agree. --AraLink 06:05, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as the one who protected the article: This was a long-running content dispute with no attempts having been made to discuss it on the talk page. Some versions probably had WP:NPOV problems but the point of protecting the article is to force the feuding parties to come to some agreement on a version which represents all viewpoints. Once you feel that has been achieved, place a request for unprotection at WP:RFPP. —dgies^t_c 06:24, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Takfiri Salafists

That is the term I see most often as synonymous for Al-Qae?da or quasi AQ. here is a quote of its use from a random google search

• It is takfiri Salafist (Sunni) extremist ideology that menaces the world. Shi'ite extremism is a different animal entirely -- and much more amenable to control by religious hierarchies. Sunni Imams, conversely, are freelancers. That's why it can legitimate an apostate group like al Qaeda.[1]Godspeed John Glenn! Will 01:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Please rewrite

I saw the word takfiris in an article and having never seen it before, wondered what it meant. So I came to Wikipedia and sad to say I still don't know what the word means. I hope that you will rewrite the article to make the word more comprehensible. Sbowers3 22:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

No Muslim Scholars use the term “Takfiri-Salafis”.

The terms “Salafi” and “Takfiri” are mutually exclusive terms as far as the Ulema (Scholars of Islam) are concerned. The only ones that commonly fuse those terms are some Non-Muslim researchers/writers.

Using this term may confuse readers, as the Salafi scholars, students of knowledge, laymen and laywomen are the harshest critics of Takfiri ideology. The Salafis use the Qur’an and Sunnah as the daleel (proof) against this sect of chaos and destruction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.66.106.71 (talk) 03:19, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

All of the Salafis do not have Takfir. some of them have and some does not have. Takfiri Salafis simply means any Salifi who commits Takfir. and there are many scholars use the term. Ahmadi 15:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Hezbollah is not a Takfiri group

at the end of article it has called Hezbollah as a Takfiri group and this link is mentioned as the source. I checked this link and could not find any evidence for this claim that Hezbollah is a Takfiri group. I am going to remove this claim from this article within a couple of days, unless I hear objections from other editors. evidence from sayings of Hezbollah leader (Sayyed Hasan Nasrullah) is needed to can consider Hezbollah as a Takfiri group unless this is a baseless accusation. Ahmadi 15:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Completely agree. Hezbollah is fighting Saudi Takfiri group, so it makes no sense to claim that Hezbollah is a Takfiri group. 80.110.83.124 (talk) 00:36, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

It doensn't matter if a Shia group mentions other groups as Takfiri, or viceversa. To keep the neutral point of view, it's sufficient to mention that it's used by many groups (whether Sunni, Shia, etc); also, the source included is indeed unrelated. --92slim (talk) 20:37, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Hezbollah is a Shia group, and the Shia doctrine teaches that Sunnis are not Muslims. (though they will deny this and lie) In this sense Hezbollah should be on here. But the whole word 'takfiri' is nonsense. Takfir is something you do, not something you are. Sunni make takfir on Shia, Shia make takfir on Sunni. Neither should be described as 'takfiris' because takfir is a verb not a noun.

oh and before someone comes and says: Shia dont make takfir on Sunni!!!here is the evidence, okay so this following quotes are from the major historical shia scholars

• Allama Abdullah al Mamqani wrote in Tanqihul Maqal (Major shia rijal book), Volume 1 Page 208 (published in Najaf): ": "The conclusion that is reached from the ahadith is that the ruling of kafir (disbeliever) and mushrik (polytheist) would apply in the hereafter upon anyone who is not a Shia Ithna Ash'ari (i.e. Twelver Shia)."
• Shaikh Yusuf al Bahrani stated in Hadaiqul Nadhirah, Volume 18 Page 53: "Indeed you know that the non shia has no share in Islam in any way, as we revealed in our book Shahab al Thaqib."
• Baqir Majlisi declared in Biharul Anwar, Volume 23 Page 290 (Published in Beirut): "Note that the terms shirk (polytheism) and kufr (disbelief) apply to one who does not believe in the Imamah of Ali (as) or his progeny, and gives precedence to others over them, proving that they are kuffar destined to reside in hell."

and from the modern scholars:

• What is meant by the term 'momin'(believer), is Shia Ithna Ash'ari only. . So whenever brotherhood is implied in religious interpretations, it must be kept in mind that non shias our by no means our brothers.Makasibul Muhramah by Ayatullah Khomeini, Volume 1 page 250
• It is a matter of basic common sense that there is no brotherhood or support/partnership between us shias and the non Shias. Misbahul fuqahah by Ayatullah Khoei, Volume 1 page 505
• The attribution of iman (belief) and brotherhood towards non shias is completely invalid. There are explicit and mutawatir ahadith which invalidate this claim, furthermore there are mutawatir ahadith from the Imams (as) mocking and cursing the non shias, as well as calling them worse than Jews and Christians, and filthier than dogs.Riyadul Masail by Ayatullah Ali Tabatabai, Volume 8 page 68

okay so those are just a few quotes from the historical and modern shiite scholars making takfir on sunnis

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.112.144.10 (talk) 10:25, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Takfiri as a movement - pejorative term or self-description?

(My understanding of this topic is limited to a broadcast of Aljazeera today and reading this article)

It seems to me Takfiri is used a lot by people opposed to them. Is there any group or organization that describes itself as Takfiri? The definitions given here seem to make that unlikely: if a Takfiri is a Muslim who says another Muslim isn't a Muslim, then obviously all Takfiri are wrong. So either the definition is different from the self-definition, or it is a term people don't self-apply. Renke (talk) 21:11, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

usually no Muslim describe himself as Takfiri. the first Takfir group in history of Islam were Kharijates. the Takfirs is known from sayings and practice of the Takfiri Muslims and not from self-describe. it is a bitter truth. it is not a pejorative term in fact but perhaps someone use it as pejorative term about Muslims who are not in fact Takfir. it is Movement mostly with political reasons like getting power and Takfir is a justification for killing the competitor. 151.242.27.38 (talk) 23:40, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism

Some with a 92.24.243.225 IP removed some parts of the article without discussing it in the talk page and telling the reason. I'll undo this, if no rational reason is presented.Mhhossein (talk) 19:04, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Takfiri as a pejorative sectarian term

As a result of reliably sourced additions to this article been repeatly deleted with no discussion, an incident at the administrator's notice board regarding this issue has been opened [2]. Please discuss the matter here as simply reverting accurate, valid, and referenced material from the article is not an option. Nulla Taciti (talk) 16:57, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Takfiri. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141021094218/http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/Files/Middle%20East%20North%20Africa/Iraq%20Syria%20Lebanon/Lebanon/153-lebanon-s-hizbollah-turns-eastward-to-syria.pdf to http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/Files/Middle%20East%20North%20Africa/Iraq%20Syria%20Lebanon/Lebanon/153-lebanon-s-hizbollah-turns-eastward-to-syria.pdf
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140723034556/http://al-aqeedah.com/images/books/asludeen.pdf to http://al-aqeedah.com/images/books/asludeen.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:57, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Kafir/Kuffar

The first paragraph of this page uses the words kafir and kuffar. Kuffar links to a page titled Kafir. Are the two not interchangeable for some reason or should they be synchronised? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akyuun (talk • contribs) 20:35, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Kuffar is a plural of kafir --Louis P. Boog (talk) 20:00, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Expanding

Expanding giving examples of takfir in recent decades. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 20:00, 19 December 2020 (UTC)