Talk:Université de Montréal

Gilles Brassard

I seriously think Gilles Brassard deserves to be in the list of famous alumni and faculty. To start with he is both alumni and faculty of UdeM. His name is one of the Bs in the BB84 protocol for quantum cryptography. He is an ISI highly cited researcher. This can also be confirmed by simply typing his name in google scholar where you will find half dozen articles with more or around a 1000 citations. Finally, and not surprisingly, the Canadian Federal government created an award with his name http://www.nserc-crsng.gc.ca/Prizes-Prix/Brassard-Brassard/Index-Index_eng.asp. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.199.153 (talk) 01:56, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

U de M

Shouldn't this be at Université de Montréal instead of University of Montreal, just as the Université du Québec à Montréal has a French title instead of the English University of Quebec at Montreal? Darkcore 20:57, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

To my knowledge, nobody calls it the University of Quebec at Montreal; but people do call it the University of Montreal. However, I wouldn't strenuously object to moving it to the French title. - Montrealais

It should be University of Quebec, Montreal / University of Quebec - Montreal / University of Quebec Montreal

If University of Montreal is moved to Université de Montréal (to which I would not strenuously object either), the Laval University would need to be moved to Université Laval (if only to be fair). - Grstain 10:43, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

• Talk:University of Montreal — University of Montreal → Université de Montréal – It should be renamed becuase Université de Montréal is the more common usage in English - 132.205.45.148 19:24, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 23:26, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Update: The page now begins "The University de Montreal", which is a little ridiculous -- either Université de Montréal or University of Montreal, but not this weird bilingual mix! 142.151.171.34 (talk) 12:27, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy for article titles is to use English. Reliable sources in English call it University of Montreal, and the university itself refers to itself as the University of Montreal on the English language version of its website. Requesting the move. MyPOV (talk) 17:58, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Errors

The article contains some errors, the university was founded in 1878 (this year is the 125th anniversary), although it was not independent before 1920. What about the Longueuil campus?

Second-largest??

I haven't found any other source indicating that it is the second largest French language university in the world. The French version of the page doesn't mention this either. - Gdm 16:45, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

u de m?/

U de M ussually refers to Universitie de Moncton, not Montreal. Just thought i'd mention this as it is confusing.

Assessment

I have assessed this as Start Class, as it contains more detail and organization than would be expected of a Stub, and of mid importance, as I believe that the topic plays a strong role in Canada. Cheers, CP 14:47, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Please note that the coordinates in this article need fixing as:

• "Université de Montréal" is not the same as "Université du Québec à Montréal". These coordinates are those of "Université du Québec à Montéal" (aka UQAM).
  • I replaced the old coordinates with those of the french version of the article, which I assume to be correct. --m3taphysical (talk) 18:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Confirming coordinates currently in article and removing geodata-check tag. Gregbaker (talk) 07:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Article title

Université de Montréal, University of Montréal or University of Montreal? Discussion here. Skeezix1000 (talk) 15:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• We are using Université de Montréal because that is the university's official English name. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Religious/Biblical institutions

I have now removed claims that the Institut Biblique VIE and the École de Théologie Évangélique de Montréal are part of and/or affiliated to the university. Sources tend to indicate that these institutions only maintain limited agreements with the university [1][2], allowing them to share courses and offering credit with the university's department of religious studies. From what I have seen, the university officially recognizes two schools (Polytechnique and HEC). Please state your sources if you believe I'm wrong. --m3taphysical (talk) 20:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Article expansion =

I'm currently working to expand and complete any information missing in this article. It seems I'm one of the few who regularly adds information. I'd just like to make clear that it isn't my intention to monopolize edits. Feel free to criticize or even undo my edits as you see fit. --m3taphysical (talk) 01:49, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you, M3taphysical - Keep in mind that while the university's English name is Université de Montréal, the departments seem to have official English names distinct from the French. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Endowment discrepancy

In the french version of the article, endowment is said to be 1192,5 millions (including affiliated schools [HEC Montreal, Ecole Polytechnique]) source : http://www.umontreal.ca/udem-aujourdhui/fr/faits-et-chiffres/index.html

This english version sets the endowment at 142.5 millions which is not even close to reasonable for an institution like UdeM. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.85.5.19 (talk) 19:53, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

How is the endowment not reasonable. The majority of university endowments in Canada are around that area or lower. As for your source, I looked at it and all it states is nothing about the endowment figure, it only brings up the school's entire operating budget, and its entire revenue fund (I'm assuming this is where the figure of 1,192.5 comes from). While the revenue of a university includes the endowment, the revenue is not entirely made up of it, as it also includes tuition fees, government operating grants, etc. The latest endowment figure provided by the university is actually $133.938 million, down from the 2008 figure. However that drop was nearly universal in Canada as almost all university endowments went down since the financial crisis. I've fixed both the French and English pages. The annual report with the endowment figure can be found here: http://www.direction.umontreal.ca/recteur/documents/rapport-annuel/rap_an2009en.pdf (page 12) Leventio (talk) 18:14, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Userbox?

Are there userboxes for Wikipedian UdeM alumni? A category? Most universities have them, but I can't seem to find them for this one.LeadSongDog come howl! 00:38, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

What happened?

I was entering the university's programs of study, and, suddenly, all of the information below was deleted. I tried to undo the changes, but everything remains because there is a website (which was previously on the article) that is on Wikipedia's blacklist and that must be removed. Help! --MaxAMSC (talk) 00:56, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

The problem was that the domain shanghairanking.com was put on the spam blacklist, apparently. Because this was linked externally from the template {{Canadian university rankings}}, it prevented any article including this template from being modified. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 03:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! --MaxAMSC (talk) 03:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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Requested move 21 December 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 02:40, 17 January 2020 (UTC) Update: Here is a supplementary for my reasons for closure. Jerm (talk) 16:22, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Supplementary

I ended up edit-conflicting with your close here, just as I was going to add a detailed policy analysis that likely would have resulted in an firmer closure. I believe it should be relisted, instead of RMNACed as no consensus, since a) the policy arguments of one side are actually much stronger (though less emotional) than the other, so a consensus is in fact likely to emerge, and b) all that's going to happen with an nc result is that it will get re-RMed again later, rehashing the same arguments. It is better to just settle the matter now, even if it takes one or more relistings. I'm not going to get into whether something at WP:RMNAC can possibly be interpreted to suggest the close was "faulty", much less go challenge it at WP:MR; I think the close was in good faith, just kind of short-term expediency-oriented (at the expense of long-term efficiency), plus (as a pagemover myself) I find RMNAC to have drifted off into WP:BUREAUCRACY and WP:CREEP land. I don't wish it on anyone, unless they're actually incompetent or are supervoting. >;-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:13, 17 January 2020 (UTC) @SMcCandlish: The RM was already in the backlog which is my reason for performing the closure, but stating that one group presented a better argument than the other is entirely your own interpretation on the matter. The only thing that matters is that their arguments were based on policy which both groups have demonstrated. And yes, I did exclude Alex’s additional vote. His first vote wasn’t difficult to interpret. Though he did not name any specific policy, it was quite clear his argument was to go according to what primary sources show per WP:PRIMARY. I’m only mentioning his vote because he’s the only one to have not name a specific policy. Overall, the arguments were presented according to policy and the number of votes from both groups are even via No consensus . Jerm (talk) 12:37, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

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Université de Montréal → University of Montreal – I believe this to be an uncontroversial application of Wikipedia's WP:USEENGLISH policy for article titles. Reliable sources such as Times Higher Education refer to the university by this name, as does the university itself on its English language website. For more detail, see the naming discussion under heading "U de M" above. MyPOV (talk) 18:09, 21 December 2019 (UTC) —Relisting. Favonian (talk) 22:00, 28 December 2019 (UTC)—Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 01:21, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. English usage is divided. CBC News, The Montreal Gazette and The Toronto Star all use "Université de Montréal" and "University of Montreal" interchangeably. A Google Scholar search actually turns up more results for the French spelling compared to English, even when requesting English-only results. Per WP:CANFRENCH, the proper name of the institution in French should be used if there is no unambiguously preferred term in Canadian English. Surachit (talk) 04:08, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
• Support - I'd use what the university uses in its own official communications in English - if their English website calls it University then that's what we use. This isn't a situation like Parti Québécois where the organisation has a strong preference for one language over another, so it's more like a "usual" interlanguage issue like fr:Université d'Oxford versus University of Oxford.

As for WP:CANFRENCH, it says to use what an English speaker would most likely recognize as the usual name of the subject in actual usage. If Canadian usage is divided, then I'd suggest WP:CANFRENCH is saying to use the en.wiki WP:COMMONNAME, which across all users of en.wiki would be the English version.Le Deluge (talk) 12:59, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. The university explicitly uses the French name in its own official communications in English. This is already addressed in the nametag in the page source code. Alex 00:21, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
  • A link to a communique published in French is not very persuasive basis regarding what they use in English. --В²C ☎ 00:16, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
    • Comment: The communique actually does outline what the user is stating though (albeit in French), in Article 4: Le nom de l'Universite de Montreal (bottom of the first page), where it states, Il ne doit être ni modifié ni traduit dans une autre langue dans les documents officiels émis ou publiés par l'Université, même si ces documents sont rédigés dans une langue autre que le françiais.

It basically states the name of the institution should not be modified or translated in any of the university's official documentation, even if said document is not in French. In saying that though, Wikipedia isn't an "official document" of UdeM so that doesn't really apply here (though it does clearly demonstrate that formally speaking, the institution only recognizes the French name). In saying all that, the common name of the university in Canada is more often than not Université de Montréal (though anecdotally speaking English Canadians usually refer to it by its French acronym UdeM, rather than any of the full English/French name), but if were talking about the global English community, I'd probably wager the common name would be University of Montreal. I honestly have a preference for French name (as thats how it presented more often than not in English Canada), but I understand the global common name argument, so I'm pretty neutral on this issue. Leventio (talk) 00:51, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't know the authority of that document, but I don't think it's much, as I provided a counter-example in my !vote comment below. --В²C ☎ 01:27, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

And "officially documents" probably applies to business contracts and the like, not to general publications to the English speaking public. Just look at the Scholar results! [3]. --В²C ☎ 01:32, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Scholar actually turns up more results for the French name if you use quotation marks. 113k results for "University of Montreal" versus 515k results for "Université de Montréal". Surachit (talk) 02:15, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

... Just look at the url. It comes from the Secretary General's office of the university, which is an office that is charged with ensuring the administration of the university adheres to the governing legislation of the institution (their site in French but the office's homepage is here). So when it refers to "official documents" from the university, its referring to official documents from the university's administration/front office (e.g. the Board of Governors). As for Google Scholars/academic papers in general, universities will rarely impose their internal standards on their academics (it sort of goes against the principles of academic freedoms... which is usually an important tenet of any university...). This is why the administrations of universities, and its faculties are usually governed by two separate bodies (in UdeM's case its the Board of Governors and the University Senate respectively). Also the search result you presented for "University of Montreal" also brings up "Universite d'Montreal" in the second result... so its clearly conflating the two if you don't specify (which as Surachit noted above, specifying would actually yield more results for the French name). Just a quick shadow-edit but I'm not suggesting that this is a standard we should follow (as I said earlier, Wiki is not an arm of UdeM), I'm just clarifying what the source of the document is. Leventio (talk) 02:36, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. As near as I can tell the university itself uses the English spelling in their English communications[4] ("A new study led by the Sainte-Justine University Hospital Centre and the University of Montreal, along with..."). --В²C ☎ 00:16, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

The university uses both titles in their English communications, browse through the search results of umontreal.ca/en. A couple examples: [5] ("a new study conducted at Université de Montréal suggests...") and [6] ("The Université de Montréal (UdeM) held the official opening ceremony today for the Science Complex"...) Surachit (talk) 02:26, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I'd just like to point out that if this article does get moved, it's going to break consistency with every other Francophone university in Quebec, all of which currently have article titles in French. If the consensus is to WP:USEENGLISH, then the Manual of Style should be modified, because the example given at WP:CANFRENCH seems to be directly contradict that:

For many current institutions (hospitals, universities, etc.) in Quebec, standard Canadian English usage is ambiguous and not clear-cut: some English speakers refer to the Université du Québec à Montréal, while others refer to the "University of Quebec at (or in) Montreal", while still others simply use the acronym UQAM (you-kam). In such cases, title the article with the proper name of the institution in French

In other words, I don't see why this article should be treated differently than Université du Québec à Montréal. UQAM and UdeM both get referred to in English media interchangeably by their French titles and by their English translations. Surachit (talk) 02:08, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Each one should be considered on an individual basis in terms of how it's referred to most commonly in reliable English sources. That's more important than using either the French or the English consistently for all of them. --В²C ☎ 17:25, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support - given that the English name is in common usage, WP:UE dictates that we should be using that one. Also Montreal is quite a bilingual city with a sizeable English-speaking population anyway, so it's not automatic that everything would be in French there, and those English speakers are part of the natural en-wiki community.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:49, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Oppose. The French name is regularly encountered in English media. I’m not sure why you’re bringing up the anglophones in Montreal here because Quebec English is famous for incorporating French terms for local institutions all the time, like régie, subvention and UQAM. Alex 23:19, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

You already !voted above; you don't have to "oppose" each individual comment. Dekimasuよ! 01:21, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - This request aspired to be an "uncontroversial application of Wikipedia's WP:USEENGLISH policy". But clearly it isn't uncontroversial in light of the multiple policy-based oppose !votes. WP:CANFRENCH#Institutions burdens the nominator with demonstrating the existence of "a single standard and generally accepted English name for the institution". Certainly you have ventured an alternative English name but is it "generally accepted"? Not on the evidence of this discussion. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 11:38, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.