Ceoil

Light and friendship for the paths ahead

Garrick's temple

[1] [2] In my top 1 [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] best of all [20] [21] [22] [23]

Picts

I'm having a go at improving the Picts article... illustrative images were on the list of things to do, I've started a talk topic on the article re Religion, prompted by the addition and removal of the Columba pic. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:10, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes have been watching. I'm thinking about starting a stand alone articLe on Pictish art, along the lines of Insular art. I have quite a few book sources that discusses stones and (individual) brooches, and see there is quite a lot of similar on JSTOR. But am unsure. Should it be a sub-section within Insular art? Ceoil (talk) 18:19, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Do you have the George and Isabel Henderson book? It's amazing for general Pictish art, and the book by Iain Fraser is by far the best on stones. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:24, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I have the Henderson's book, but not Fraser. Luckily have birthday coming up so will ask the mrs. Also have Youngs, "The Work of Angels: Masterpieces of Celtic Metalwork, 6th—9th centuries AD", two early medieval surverys by Rachel Moss, and a bunch of anthologies of the proceeding from the international conferences on insular art. ps, if you have any sources or pointers to expand on Insular_crozier#Scottish, would be very happy indeed (section is short, but took many many hours to build, and obviously is still only scratching surface). Ceoil (talk) 18:38, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Nothing particularly on croziers... the Hendersons may provide a hint on this regarding the flower symbol on the Dunnichen Stone which they say may "originate in the design for a pole top". Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:54, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Ping Johnbod. Ceoil (talk) 18:20, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

No, best by itself I think. The expensive Henderson book seems to be much the best source. Johnbod (talk) 03:52, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm working on the history section at the moment... not that you would have noticed! I've been putting together a map of the "tribes" listed by Ptolemy in my sandbox. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 10:37, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Pictland

Fib

Circin

Fortriu

Ce

Atholl

Dál Riata

Manaw

Cat

Sci

Orc

Northumbria

Britons

class=notpageimage|

Pictish and neighbouring territories, c.7th century CE.

Comparison of the distribution of Pictish symbol stones and cross slabs (top) with the distribution of the place name element pit-.

I've prepared a new map of Pictish territories to go into the article (looks very simple, but was a fair bit of work), along with an old map of stone distributions that I made a few years ago. What do you think? Any improvements that could be made? Catfish Jim and the soapdish 10:33, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Looks great to me - you could make it more compact by putting the Shetlands in a box, & plonking that in an empty bit of sea to the south. Johnbod (talk) 13:02, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Agree, looks great, and a huge improvement. Ceoil (talk) 20:46, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if you ever have moments where you start a project and a few hours in, really regret having started? This took far longer than I had intended. It's not as complete as it maybe will be in future (there are recorded examples that have since dropped the pit in favour of Gaelic bal), but this will do for now. Thought I would combine it with the Pictish symbol stone map for a new section on Geography... thoughts on formatting? I'm going to box out Shetland but am unsure as to whether to present them both as relief maps or political, whether to use the Pictland map or save that just for the kingdoms... Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes I do know, only to my shame. You strike me as a trooper though, and although the road was hard and woeful..the result is really great and will stand, thank you v. much, you troubles will be rewarded in heaven if not here :) Ceoil (talk) 00:55, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the raw data from here and replaced it with the finished version. I've stuck with relief maps for both. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:01, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

That's some serious piece of work. Well done. Ceoil (talk) 00:28, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Working on a couple more possibilities before inculding it... "Pit-" is such a good fit in terms of correlation with the stones, it certainly has a P-Celtic origin, and it is called a Pictish place name element in certain books, but it's clear that most placenames containing it were coined later than the Pictish period. It was "borrowed" by later Gaelic speakers in the previously Pictish speaking region. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:50, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Animals underfoot

Hi, saw this and immediately thought of you and that tomb

John de Pitchford

ϢereSpielChequers 08:21, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh wow, in wood and he died in 1285, thats very early! Very tempted to divert to researching the Pitchford Estate! Ceoil (talk) 00:30, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Thought you might like that, I've categorised a huge number of photos from English churches on Commons, and this struck me as an unusual survival of prereformation woodcarving ϢereSpielChequers 11:18, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Its way earlier than what I've been reading about, and interesting in that its so formative for later styles (the niches are already in place). That the wood has survived for 700 odd years is really something. Ceoil (talk) 11:21, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Tomb at St Edith, Eaton

I've just looked it up in Pevsner's book on Shropshire, two short mentions, "well preserved" "7' long" and one of two late 13th century oaken effigies in the county. Definitely something to come back to after your celtic thing. Not sure whether we should be looking at an article on that monument or the general topic of Oaken effigies from medieval England. the other 13th century one in Shropshire is at Berrington, but we don't currently have any internal shots of Media related to All Saints Church, Berrington at Wikimedia Commons the geograph has some of the really interesting font but not the effigy. There's also a 14th century effigy at St Edith's which I suspect is File:St Edith, Eaton - Effigy - geograph.org.uk - 2246215.jpg (no dog or lion underfoot and the bier looks Victorian to me). ϢereSpielChequers 11:47, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

well now you have me hooked. The simplicity of the St Edith tomb and that little is known...line and sinker. Ceoil (talk) 14:15, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

This takes me back... I remember being terrified by the tomb of The Wolf of Badenoch when taken to Dunkeld Cathedral as a small child. Not because he was a scary person (he was) but because they turned him into stone along with his pet dog which they put by his feet. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 14:26, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Nice Jim, into my top 20 the charmingly named tomb of The Wolf of Badenoc goes. I would have been terrified also, in fact...[gulp!!] Ceoil (talk) 22:18, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Excuse me for butting in, but there is certainly something that can be written here. I think a key piece of research here is a 1909 paper by Alfred Cooper Fryer in Archaeologia, on "Wooden Monumental Effigies in England and Wales". [24] And a revised version of that paper from 1924. More recently, there is a nice doctoral dissertation (Proefschrift) on "Early Secular Effigies in England" from the Thirteenth Century here: [25] That includes a list of 213 examples, with images, several of which are both early with either effigy or tomb/box or both in wood. We have images of most (see below), many look to be in surprisingly good condition given their age. Mostly lions at their feet, I think, not dogs. Only three have the original wooden box - Pitchford, Westminster, and Salisbury. I've not included Pitchford again below, and we don't seem to have images for two in St Mary's, Woodford, Northamptonshire.[26]

• 
  William de Valence, 1st Earl of Pembroke, Westminster Cathedral (with copper plates and enamel)
• 
  William Longespée, 3rd Earl of Salisbury, Salisbury Cathedral (stone effigy, wooden box)
• 
  Robert Curthose, Gloucester Cathedral (reconstructed base)
• 
  Southwark Cathedral
• 
  Old Sodbury, Gloucestershire
• 
  Little Horkesley, Essex (1,2,3)
• 
  Danbury, Essex (1)
• 
  Danbury, Essex (2)

The tomb of William de Valence clearly shows the early use of blank arcades as decoration, that could be filled in by "weepers" in later examples. See the discussion on p.29. We don't have a good image of the extraordinary canopied tomb of Aymer de Valence at Westminster, which is said to be the earliest example of "weepers" in England.[27] Theramin (talk) 00:15, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Aymer de Valence

I hope to take my camera to the Abbey this year and I'll put Aymer on my list, but I think it might be too close to the High Altar. There has to be a reason why we don't have any photos of that specific monument considering how much we have from the Abbey. The lion v dog issue does remind me of the debate about the unsympathetic restoration of that part of Phillipe de Pot's monument. ϢereSpielChequers 08:18, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Dog or lion?

Looking at the Wolf of Badenoch's "dog" it does appear to have a mane... Catfish Jim and the soapdish 09:54, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Have made a start on expanding Pitchford based on sources provided by Theramin, but there is a lot more would like to dig into. Excellent research as always. Ceoil (talk) 21:55, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

You are welcome. Impressed with your find of the 1924 updated version of the Fryer article at archive.com. Happy editing. Theramin (talk) 00:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks but as usual am following your lead. I'm trying to think of an umbrella article to bring these together, but coming up with naught. Tomb Sculptures from the Court of Burgundy is obvious and catchy for the other side, but for English examples, dunno. Have always been an anglophile and am besotted by the images you provided, but don't want to get drawn into adding burial foot-notes to the bios of minor knights that nobody will ever read. Ceoil (talk) 00:50, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Er, something like Wooden tomb effigies in medieval England? Theramin (talk) 00:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Ceoil, you and I have both worked on Tomb effigy, which could do with plenty of expansion. It averages 56 views pd, which isn't too bad. Myself, I'd sooner keep stone, alabaster & wood in the same article, as the format & style seem essentially the same. But sections on the various materials, certainly - there's stuff at Nottingham alabaster. In the later Middle Ages at least the British & French styles seem pretty similar, so a Euro-wide article is probably best until it is a lot bigger. Tomb monument and Wall tomb both go to Funerary art at present. Johnbod (talk) 03:10, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks :) Needs an iconography section! Theramin would deeply appreciate if you could suggest starting points on the Early modern section (which is outside my area). Ceoil (talk) 23:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Tomb effigies of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York, by Pietro Torrigiano, Westminster Abbey

Sorry, late coming back to this. (Apologies, too much other stuff going on: I hadn't expected to be worrying about parents quite so soon after the demands of children decreased, but this is life. My very strong recommendation is to settle as near to at least some family as you can bear. And so the muse has largely escaped me for some considerable time.)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "early modern" (late medieval? early renaissance? eg Donatello? even into the 16th or 17th centuries?) and I am by no means an expert either, but if it is tomb effigies you are after, we have things like the Tomb of Antipope John XXIII and the Scaliger Tombs. How about the tomb of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York (right)? Theramin (talk) 01:34, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Some pickings at List of extant papal tombs. Johnbod (talk) 04:03, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Henryk Stażewski

Hi @Ceoil! I hope you're staying well. Since you're listed as one of the FA mentors and your interests align with the topic, I was hoping to hear your thoughts on Henryk Stażewski. I've reached out to Gerda Arendt who is busy with other reviews and not a specialist in WP:VISUALARTS; she said the structure looks fine but that I would benefit from someone specializing in the general subject area. I have never gone through FA before, though I think the article is in very good shape and would really appreciate your feedback, if you have the time and energy, before moving forward. Thank you very much! Ppt91^talk 19:16, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Ppt91, still reading through but first impression is that its excellent. Am absorbed; will finish reading a few days and post any comments on talk. Unfortunately as most of the sources are in Polish I wont be able to do spot check on accuracy, but its possible to judge the weight of the art historians you are using. Ceoil (talk) 23:10, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ceoil It's so kind of you to take a closer look at the article and I really appreciate your note! In terms of literature, you're absolutely right; a lot of it is in Polish (Ladnowska's catalogue from 1995 is still the definitive source in regard to his biography, for example) though there has been some good recent scholarship in English which I've tried to include as much as possible; I'm also going to add another peer-reviewed article from Archives of American Art that just came out this spring. Would you say, overall, that it'd might be sufficient to submit for FAC? Again, many thanks for your time. Ppt91^talk 14:27, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Ppt91, its certainly good enough, well done :), but your not going to be able to keep that many fair use images, so be prepared, early, to have to cut a few; it might be best to cut now and limit to those that have a few sentences in the article body. If you fight a loosing battle early on Fair Use, it wont give a good impression for later reviewers. Its likely it will be Nikkimaria that first points this out; she's sympathetic, widely respected and sound out, but expert and not somebody I would argue with :) (scissors sound unfortunately).

Best of luck with it otherwise! Will take a more in-depth look in a week or so. Re images, Relief nr. 18, 1967 & White Grey Relief 2, 1962 would be the ones would battle to save. But then again, what do I know [shrug]. Ceoil (talk) 00:01, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ceoil This is tremendously helpful, especially in regard to images which is something I'm definitely glad to know ahead of time. I tend to overdo the visuals and I know fair use can be a problem, so will heed your advice. Thanks again for taking the time to do this. Your input and your sound advice are always greatly appreciated. :) Ppt91^talk 21:12, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Harsigny

He shows up as a very old physician in Bal des Ardents and again (if I remember correctly) in Isabeau of Bavaria. He was the mad king's physician. I have some info in some sources somewhere but can't at all remember where - maybe the Autumn of the Middle Ages? Will check if you want. He's more notable for his tomb and am thrilled to see you working on it. Bty - was on my watchlist - so that's how I noticed. Victoria (tk) 23:14, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Its funny how like minded minds think alike! Yeah I realised my mistake after page moving the bio to the tomb, and from since reading, he was notable before his head drilling of the mad king, which is especially fascinating and article worthy....so thats two claims to fame. BTY - did notice you were involved early on when the page was created...Its a small world :) Ceoil (talk) 23:19, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I research him a bit during the Bal des Ardents phase and was particularly fascinated by the tomb. At first I thought wrapping the bio into the tomb page is fine - the bio is a bit thin - but then remembered the issues with Pol Pot and thought it's best to keep the bio separate. I do have Tuchman, almost within reaching distance - so will look there when I get a chance. My books keep getting moved from room to room for various reasons (mostly because there are too many of them) but will see if Autumn of the Middle Ages is easy to find. Regardless, since I seem to have fallen into an extended hiatus, very happy to see that work. Hope all is well with Liz & family. Victoria (tk) 23:29, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Re books, I'm in the same situation, too many and not a enough room. We do have shelves, but the overspill is into halls, the kitchen, and the cat's safe spaces. Plus, Liz's 100s of books are in storage since she moved to paddyland, and her parents had collected a multiped more that we have to decide on. First world problems maybe.

I have a hard copy of Autumn of the Middle Ages, but havent mined yet. If I could vent for a moment...in last year have felt 2 steps forward with stuff I'm now interested in, and four steps backwards with late '00s FAR saves. I do find the saves worthwhile, but jesus christ its unrelenting. If it wasn't for Sandy, would be sunk. Ceoil (talk) 23:44, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm in the process of trying to catalogue books; eventually they will all have to go somewhere. And yes the overspill is absurd. Whenever I start a new pile another pile gets moved ... somewhere. And I can never remember where that somewhere is when I need to find a specific book. Re FARs - dunno what to say but very much agree re Sandy. Some FARs, like Rowling, Joyce & H.d, seem worthwhile. Others maybe not as much. Plus, not being here and all, I'm feeling some pressure to work through the earliest articles I brought to FAC but haven't been able to get up the energy to do much about it. I'm just waiting for the dreaded FAR message to show up on talk. And don't look forward to having to convert old FAs refs to templated refs. Victoria (tk) 23:58, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I would'nd worry so much about article's you took to FAC, certainly not about reformatting refs; its more 2006-2007 supports and late 00's FAR saves are biting me on the, eh ass. Most are on articles I care deeply about - for eg back in 1989 I woed my first gf by introducing her to Doolittle (album), and happily my now wife was gig going in Boston as the band were emerging...the two are now friends! Re books, I'm happy to stack them; have to admit I don't mind breaking spines (like books to feel as read rather than pristine), and I usually toss the dust covers as needless packaging. Ceoil (talk) 00:09, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Maybe a good rule of thumb is to try to save a FAR if you're motivated and care about the article, which obviously you do re Doolittle. Otherwise let some of them slide. I unwatched FAR so that I can't see what's being listed, which helps. I've been ignoring edits to articles I've worked on, mostly because I can't always get to them, and watching some deteriorate quite badly. Luckily I didn't take the core contest ones I worked on through review. The high volume articles attract a lot of editing and deteriorate very quickly. Others, like Bals des Ardents, sit happily in a corner and gather dust. Doolittle doesn't look like a huge lift. But yeah, I know what you mean. Working on new work while keeping old work tidy. It's endless. Victoria (tk) 01:05, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

P.s I'm becoming more agnostic about breaking the backs of books :) Victoria (tk) 01:07, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I urge you to break them all. I like a books to have utility and to obviously have been read through; it totally gives more life. I have a fair few from my fathers long past older sister and grandparents, including Uni test books, and to see their sigs and notes and thumb prints is well...better than some cabinmate or coffee table picture boast. Ceoil (talk) 01:15, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Eventually they all break. The well-loved tattered ones are the best. Victoria (tk) 01:24, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Reference formatting

Ceoil, if that's all that's pending yet at the end of Doolittle, I can take care of that. Can try to help with the Pistols if need be, but real life is a busy mess with driving around the late great Show-Me State almost every day for work for the next month and a half. Hog Farm _Talk 02:22, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi Hog, many thanks for offer and I think Sandy has done most of not all of the heavy lifting on the citations; will take a look around over next few days and hopefully close out any remaining issues. Ceoil (talk) 20:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Uug, Sandy has found some sourcing issues that may be kind of difficult or very difficult to resolve. Will keep you updated. I remain optimistic though...Doolittle was one of the most highly antisipated and then poured over albums of my youth, so know the story very well. And am fine with trimming the page if claims are weak or can't be verified. Ceoil (talk) 21:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Ceoil, sorry for being so swamped IRL. I've gotten away to the cabin for a few days for a much-needed break, and have had some thoughts on how we might better move forward with too much work to do! You have a lot going on, and I need to look at both Sex Pistols and Doolittle (album) and catch up with all my other work. It occurs to me that the sourcing strengths of our mutual friend Wtfiv might be of excellent use on Doolittle (album), so you can focus elsewhere for now. Wtfiv is amazing at digging in to sources (that are available in this case at archive.org) and hewing to them; perhaps Wtfiv can be enticed to do the source-to-text integrity cleanup needed at Doolittle, while you and I focus on the Pistols? All of Frank/Ganz need to be rejigged so that page numbers match (preferably) the archive.org version, and to check for the kinds of source-to-text integrity problems I listed on the FAR. Wtfiv ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:42, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I can help out, but I won't be able to dig in until August, but if you feel I can be helpful, I would be delighted to try. Getting a bit of insight into the Pixies could be interesting too. Just let me know if August isn't too late. Wtfiv (talk) 04:45, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Came to the cabin to get away, relax, and get caught up on Wikiwork-- instead drove 180 miles last night to find the closest emergency vet, spend the night in a hotel, thought we lost our little girl, now safe but have to pack and go home for followup care with our own vet. So sorry I didn't get to Sex Pistols ... eight hours of driving ahead of me today. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:36, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

OMG you give your self such a hard time re wiki-guilt! Anyways, sorry to hear of recent strufe, but have both books now, and will run through pg numbers later....if ok will swap to the copies I have...easier to keep track of as more additions from them may be needed re expansion here and there. Ceoil (talk) 23:01, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

ps, if its any comfort - the last proper non 2 day holiday myself and Liz had was in mid-July 2016 in Iceland, which was marked by...unusual northern sunshine :) and the Brexit vote :( Ceoil (talk) 01:39, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

I am so far behind now in things I have promised people that I am considering I should just give up. Wtfiv is you are able to help at Doolittle, it's never too late. Ceoil, I think my holiday days are over; I won't try that again. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:57, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

np Sandy, and to be honest am thinking of asking for an extension...the page could do with expansion on describing the individual songs, and the inter-band warfare at the time....eg the singer Charles rejected a number of songs by bassist Kim, because.he.fancied. her and she didn't fancy him. Eg the major international hit Cannonball (The Breeders song). Its late here now but will ping ye when ready for review...happily reading the new books and thinking :) Ceoil (talk) 01:03, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Ceoil, I'll help out anyway you feel is useful once I'm freed up. SandyGeorgia It sounds like your time off was rough. I'm sorry things became such a mess, though I'm glad the worse is over. Wtfiv (talk) 05:18, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Wtfiv , no pressure but would be great to have your input for sure. Ceoil (talk) 04:32, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi Ceoil and SandyGeorgia. :-) Sandy, sorry to hear about your pet and glad to hear it's doing OK. I've been offline and am back to find this Doolittle (album) clean-up drive. Sandy, you'll recall a few years ago I volunteered to clean up Pixies (band) but only got so far with that. I think I found it a bit lonesome working on that one alone, but I should try to give it another go. ;-) If Ceoil is working on Doolittle, yeah, maybe I should focus on Pixies? Ceoil, I also promised you a good once-through of This Nation's Saving Grace. Even now I will have limited Wiki time, but I'll see what I can do juggling these various commitments--would definitely like to help you out with that. This is completely unrelated, but, Ceoil, I recently rediscovered this song I used to listed to in my twenties, and I thought you might possibly enjoy it. Not all the band's tunes have aged really well, but this one this cracks me up every time I listen to it. ;-) [[28]]

PS Other news: I'm super excited, I have tickets to see the Breeders in Seattle in October. My friend and I are driving down from Vancouver. :-) Moisejp (talk) 16:28, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

In related news Moise, saw Pavement in Galway last night. They opened with In The Mouth A Desert. Was a real trill— had seen them in a small club in Cork in 1994, and this was as good - serious stage presence. Enjoy the gig in October you lucky, lucky bastard :) Ceoil (talk) 22:39, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

ps, mulling over your offer re Pixies/Doolittle. I do think I have the album FAR covered...the 33.3 book goes into great detail, so when ready if you could review that would be great (knowing how precious your time here is). Ceoil (talk) 22:42, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

pps, welcome back; obviously I take your opinion very seriously and do need your input on "This Nation's Saving Grace2, but whenever man. Ceoil (talk) 22:48, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

That's awesome you saw Pavement. I confess I don't them as well as I should but I do like them, including that song you linked to above, thank you. :-)

You've no doubt heard the newest Breeders single [[29]], right? It was a recently rediscovered Last Splash outtake, but was co-written with Black Francis, which suggests it was originally a Pixies leftover that Kim decided to record with her band. I was telling a friend recently that I wonder what Francis may have contributed to its composition, because it doesn't sound a lot like his sensibility to me. But now that I've listened to it some more, there are little bits of it that I could slightly relate to him, maybe. About Doolittle, sure, I'll try to review it when it's ready, sounds good. I don't have the 33.3 book, but I'll see if there's anything worthwhile in Martin Aston's The Story of 4AD—it has several pages on the album. Moisejp (talk) 01:44, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

My kids and I don't always see eye to eye music-wise, but today I was in the car with my kids and I played five of my favourite tunes from Trompe Le Monde, and asked my thirteen-year-old to choose the one he liked the best. He picked "Motorway to Roswell", good choice! He seemed to like it at least a medium amount. There's hope for him yet! ;-) Moisejp (talk) 07:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Then today I played a little Doolittle for the same son. I thought maybe he'd go head over heels for "Here Comes Your Man" because it's such an inherently catchy song, but no dice. All he said was, "They sure repeat the same line over and over again in this one." :D Moisejp (talk) 05:19, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

I was glad to help out with the Doolittle FAR and delighted you found the work helpful! I believe we addressed the original FAR concerns (and I saw that you had taken care of a lot already). I got the sense there may be more you want to add to the article. I hope the travels are more pleasure than business. But whatever they are, be safe and be well! Wtfiv (talk) 08:12, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Multiple pings

Sorry that you can't really get away and I am vaguely aware that you're off with family holidaying. Ignore the pings (re VVG images & new HD layout) for as long as you can and please please enjoy whatever it is you're up to. I've only sent pings for input when you have time & more importantly in case I don't get back to either article/talk page. In the meantime - best and enjoy the rest of summer. Victoria (tk) 01:38, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Don't listen to VE. Abandon your family and get back to the real joy in life: fiddling with image placement. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:45, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh, shoot. I did not get to travel after all :( :( Still stuck where I'm stuck ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Trade you, SandyGeorgia. My flight leaves on Saturday afternoon, crosses 12 time zones, and arrives on Monday at 6 a.m. Much as I've enjoyed Wikimanias in the past, I have a whole lot of work to do at this one, and I can't say I'm really looking forward to Singapore's August weather. Yes, I'll probably have some good times, and definitely will have some really useful conversations and will renew longtime friendships and start new ones, but it's a really long way for that. Risker (talk) 02:14, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Risker you don't want to be stuck in the position I'm stuck in; although things are improving, I much would have preferred to meet my old friend Ceoil and his bride. Bummer. Traveling instead at the end of September. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:20, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I haven't moved an inch this summer. And I'm only guessing re Ceoil. But I pinged last night & again tonight, and am now embarrassed. Oh well, Victoria (tk) 02:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Great news. More time for simufilam. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

No worries FangledFeathers, multiple pings makes me feel somehow still relevant, perhaps thought of...as if others still care! I do see consensus has been reached, but as a handy tip for the future; in my over thirteen years[30] of being friends with Victoria, whom I highly respect, we are 99.9% likely to agree on any issue, and this is no exception from my reading of the H.D. talk. ps holidays begin tomorrow :) Ceoil (talk) 00:21, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

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Request reason:

Caught by a colocation web host block but this host or IP is not a web host. My IP address is <redacted>. . Ceoil (talk) 00:42, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Accept reason:

Longtime trusted contributor caught in longterm colocation block. IP block exemption granted. Risker (talk) 02:10, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Risker for prompt sorting. Sound as always, and here is an early Planxty tune in thanks[31] Ceoil (talk) 04:08, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

A veritable block removal machine Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:03, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Checking in

Hey Ceoil, it's been a while just wanted to see how you were? I was in London a few weeks ago, and finally got the chance to go the National Gallery. The Arnolfini and Léal Souvenir were particularly memorable, the latter is so stunning! Actually I thought the most impressive in person were the Bacon paintings and Moore sculptures at Tate Modern. They had an temporary exhibit in which they solely exhibited works of both artists in the same room—an interesting combination for sure. I kept find myself back at Bacon's orange Three Studies... so captivating... gah I love art Aza24 (talk) 05:42, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Aza24 I totally get what you mean. Aged 4-10 I just wanted to hear bass sounds. Early teenager was Queen and Sex Pistols. 17-30 was into atonal music, both modern classical, shoegaze and no-wave. Aged 30 I flipped to visual art, with yes! Bacon being the main early first obsession. Tastes have broadened since then, but my first visit to London and the Tate in 1999 to see Three Figures was, surreal; the triptych is so physical and over-whelming...sparked a since life long interest in images :) Ceoil (talk) 00:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Ps long time no see, have been following your work on History of Music with interest. Ceoil (talk) 00:20, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

ps, Three Studies is the best I've found in art, this recording is the best I've found in sound. Ceoil (talk) 00:24, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Overwhelming indeed! Something about orange specifically is very enticing.

The History of music article is at a standstill at the moment while I try to finish up older projects I feel guilty for leaving behind... The new-ish History of philosophy article is making me question again whether it should be entirely chronological or split into geographical sections. Aza24 (talk) 20:02, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

without wanting to embarass you, what you did on History of Music makes me proud to be part of the project. I have a broad knowledge, can see where the dots connect, yet have been blown away by your survey. You are one of the few people than can make sense of large topics, and for that you have my respect. On the other hand History of philosophy is something I know nothing about, dont have the foundational knowledge or interest; tbh its all about sound and visuals for me :) Ceoil (talk) 06:02, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

A thanks and one more request

Greetings Ceoil,

I wanted to personally thank you for stepping in and improving the Pet Shop Boys article where I was prevented. It seems Binksternet feels empowered to revert my edits whenever he disagrees, as I'm basically an unknown on this site, but since you're a tenured and well-respected user he's not as able to push you around. I wish he were more respectful of Wikipedia's mission as a free encyclopedia which anyone can edit, but that's neither here nor there. For the moment, I'd like to make one last request regarding a page which I have tried at lengths to improve, but to no avail. I think that much of the confusion which has led to so many electro/disco pop artists (Frankie Goes to Hollywood, Bronski Beat, etc.) being wrongly labeled as 'New Wave' stems from Wikipedia's definition of synth-pop as a 'genre of new wave'. I've fought against this absurd and inaccurate opening sentence of the article at lengths on the talk page with the support of another user (@Humbledaisy), and though most of our arguments were never answered or answered obtusely (to such an extent that I regrettably lost my temper on 19 May), the first sentence of the article still stands in its sad, misleading state. If you saw fit to step in, the number of electropop artists wrongly labeled as new wave would hopefully decrease, and the synth-pop page itself would be much improved. Thanks again for all the good work you do.

Cheers,

Janglyguitars

P.S. I've also noticed your many edits related to the visual arts; as an early modern art and history enthusiast myself, we should have a real conversation sometime :) Janglyguitars (talk) 18:04, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Jangly, I cant say that its something I care about that much, but have found myself agreeing with you more often than not, especially with British synth-pop groups being tagged as new wave. Re early modern art; am an obsessive, talk anytime any place:) Ceoil (talk) 06:20, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Re synth-pop, not sure what your favorites are, but going to say for me its Talk Talk and Prefab Sprouts first two albums. 06:23, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Snake worship deaths

I noticed that the section I added ("Known deaths") got removed from the snake worship page. I was wondering why it was removed. The snake handling in Christianity page has a list of some people that died of bites during religious services in snake-handling churches, and that was what inspired me to add the "Known deaths" section in the snake worship page. If it was not supposed to be in the snake worship page, should it get added to another page? PastelLobster (talk) 18:32, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you

I just got back from Amsterdam. The Little Street and The Milkmaid were more amazing in person than I ever could have dreamed. Thank you for your help on art articles over the past few years. -- Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 07:15, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

The Little Street is so haunting. Not sure if you've seen them but there are accounts on twitter dedicated to showing specific streets from depictions in early modern paintings to decade-by-decade photographs. Its not a little humbling. Its easy to think we are living at the culmination of history...but naaa :) Ceoil (talk) 01:49, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

FAR priority

Ceoil, I have some time today, and then will be on the road for three days. Should I prioritize at FAR Doolittle (album) or Sex Pistols? That is, which of the two is closer to ready for a final review? Then I should start having more free time next week. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:47, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi Sandy. I can see your workload, so don't worry. Sex Pistols is by far the more difficult save; any time you have to give feedback would be most appreciative. Best. Ceoil (talk) 21:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I will try to get to it before we hit the road again tomorrow ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:43, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Please don't stop on any sharp bends to type complaints! Nikki is very kind with giving time, and I am in no panic, although as with H.D., its always a more rewarding process (and hopefully save) when have gone against and met your demands :) Ceoil (talk) 22:03, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I got through Sex Pistols, but that may be all for now; I got notice that I've reached my data limit on my hotspot, so I can't edit from the road ... I can catch up from the hotel at night, but it may be next week before I can do much more. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:57, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

:)You are the best!:) I owe you seven Guinness. Thank you so much:) Ceoil (talk) 05:10, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Begotten

Hello Ceoil, just wanted to check in and see if you are confirmed reviewing my article on Begotten for FA status. No need to rush either way considering I failed the last two times and I want to get this one right. If you are unable to review I could always use suggestions on who would review it. Anyways, have a good one. Paleface Jack (talk) 22:45, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi jack, I’m unexpectedly travelling for a few days, but looking forward to reviewing the article. Ceoil (talk) 02:53, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Replaced the questionable sources you mentioned in your continuing review of Begotten. Paleface Jack (talk) 02:06, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Have been reading your other articles in the last few hours; both myself and my wife are major horror film fans, but your articles are opening up a whole new vein for us to watch. Thank you!!! Ceoil (talk) 02:09, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

You are most welcome my friend. Cannot wait to see Begotten get passed! Paleface Jack (talk) 02:11, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Worked on your nitpicks for Begotten while also adding some info to the soundtrack sub-section. Paleface Jack (talk) 17:37, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Looking over that Analysis section, I want to address what was going on there privately. The entire article underwent some copy edits from a different user quite a while ago, and I suspect some of the information in that section might have gotten jumbled through no fault of their own. Did more digging into each of those sources to get the absolute best from them in a way that explains each writer's interpretation of the film and its themes. Though there are paints that need to be changed for better flow, I feel more satisfied with the results. Granted some of what the writers of those various interpretations were not as on point as to what specifically they referred to as the Egyptian and paganisric themes/motifs, I checked around to similar Featured articles (Cabinet of Caligari being the one I have used as my template) and they all point to this kind of format even though I went with it in my own style. Hopefully, some if not all your valid complaints with that section were addressed, and I am happy to make those necessary changes when you get back. Paleface Jack (talk) 22:46, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Ok will look. May not get to it for a day or two mind. Ceoil (talk) 22:54, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

no worries. Will tinker around with things in the mean time. Stay safe mate Paleface Jack (talk) 22:58, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

My main concern was that a lot of it seemed repetitive; ie listing quotes from critics all saying almost the same thing. Ceoil (talk) 23:00, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Using the talk page as a scratchpad for reworking so as to not clog up the FAC page. Please excuse if the wording is a bit blunt; just making notes, and some of them can sort myself after this further read through. Ceoil (talk) 01:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Nah, its all good. Those issues need to be addressed. Also, just a warning, the coordinator left a message on the FAN and if there are no changes or consensus the review will be archived. Paleface Jack (talk) 17:17, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Ireland

I just home from Ireland. The south and west coasts were beautiful. I think my wife and I could have done a week just in County Kerry. I hope all is well with you! -- Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 22:21, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

When my wife first came to Ireland, drove her around around the Kerry coast. Eleven years later she is still living here, hopefully something to do with me as much as that coast :) We have a caravan in Rossbeigh and go there often, if you happened to have passed it? Ceoil (talk) 22:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

ps, only just back from the states...next time maybe a pint and chat/bitching session in a pub in Cork city? Ceoil (talk) 22:37, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Begotten and Beyond

File:Troika, 1969 film, press release.png Hello my friend, just thought I would give you a heads up. Working on Begotten and its questionable sources/prose been slowly getting that completed. I have also been doing some side projects, expanding articles on other films and folklore. My main focus' have been an article pertaining to the Hidebehind (Currently these edits have been restricted to a Word doc, though it is dividing my time between that and potentially getting the articles of Troika and Stephen D. Richards to FA. Paleface Jack (talk) 23:23, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Por una navaja (For a clasp knife), "The Disasters of War"

Not that it might be any comfort, but my first FA took about 1.5 years and 640 edits to get over the line[32]. I'd love to say that it gets easier but it doesn't, the only thing experience gives is how to avoid the obvious pit falls. That said, my last FAC[33] was totally, fucking calamitous, so it really never gets less nail biting. But the thing is...the high bar makes the star all the more worthwhile. Anyway, as a hard-bitten Goya fan, have been following & admiring the work on Troika :) glad so see you around. Ceoil (talk) 00:51, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Oh I hear you there. since 2016 I have been working on and off on getting Begotten to FA. I am still stumped on how to get the prose from the Analysis section up to snuff. Anyways, I have been taking a break from Begotten, getting edits through my revision drafts on the Hidebehind, and the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre film, so that one is keeping me busy while I wait on the GA review for Varan. The Richards article is a bit tricky considering a lot of the sources are newpapers with a helping of book references.Paleface Jack (talk) 22:59, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy FA status

Hello there, it has been a while since I've been very busy working but I've recently nominated Kanye West's acclaimed 2010 album My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy for FA status after running through it again and as someone who commented on the previous candidacy, I thought you may be interested in leaving some comments at the latest FAC especially since your previous ones had more to come before the archive. K. Peake 21:44, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

How've you been?

I've missed Wikipedia and my friends on here like you. I hope you've been well. Moisejp (talk) 03:17, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Damo Suzuki

On 12 February 2024, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Damo Suzuki, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Spencer^T•C 06:03, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

story · music · places

Thank you for the updates with Martin! - Thanks to Seiji Ozawa, right next to him. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you today for Annunciation (Memling), introduced (in 2015): "Hans Memling painted this pretty Annunciation scene around 1480. It's simple, striking, and has interesting iconography, yet someone must not have liked it very much because when a Polish prince found it in one of his family's estates early in the 19th century, it had been pierced through by an arrow. Early in the 20th century it was brought to America, transferred to canvas, and now resides in New York at the Metropolitan Museum of Art."! - On the same page: Seiji Ozawa (still) and Helga Paris, a photographer of houses and faces. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

The image, taken on a cemetery last year after the funeral of a distant but dear family member, commemorates today, with thanks for their achievements, four subjects mentioned on the Main page and Vami_IV, a friend here. Listen to music by Tchaikovsky (an article where one of the four is pictured), sung by today's subject (whose performance on stage I enjoyed two days ago). Please survive. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:48, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

more music and flowers on Rossini's rare birthday --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Happy me; Petite messe solennelle went into my heavy rotation playlist last night.[34]. Ceoil (talk) 00:24, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

love it ;) - last time I sang it was on my birthday, and I loved that friends came to listen - yes, the exquisite version with just piano and harmonium, and I was one of three altos - next concert to look forward is all Bach, 5 May same place! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Whew

Last TFA. Maybe ever. Sorry for not consulting w/ you re scheduling but noted you weren't around much and decided to be imperious and take control. Thinking of you all - be well. Victoria (tk) 14:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Whew indeed. Thanks for sorting there and especially on the Ezra page. Time here limited, things not good atm, but we are surviving nonetheless :) :( Take care....Ceoil (talk) 02:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I've not actually executed on Ezra's page but will. My books are difficult to get to atm (for various reasons). No worries in terms of replying & thanks for taking the time. Even if silence pervails, I'm sending good thoughts your way. Take care & be well. Victoria (tk) 21:32, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Editor experience invitation

Hi Ceoil :) I'm looking for people to interview here. Feel free to pass if you're not interested. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 09:09, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi Clovermoss, I'm not really interested in participating, for cranky reasons (nobody wants to listen to aging hipsters complain about nowadays anymore), but its defiantly a right step forward and am very impressed by the initiative. Finally editors may be listened to! I admire the energy and optimism, but have been blocked one too many times over stupid stuff to give one flying fuck about a hierarchical greater "mission" ;) Ceoil (talk) 16:21, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Well if you ever change your mind, there is room for cranky hipsters. :) I realize that not everyone's experience is sunshine and rainbows and I think that your perspective is as valid as anyone's. No pressure though, if you don't want to participate, that's entirely your choice. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Naa, but thanks. Will be watching the outcome though;) Its a great idea and am very pleased to see this kind of activism. Ceoil (talk) 16:53, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

March music

story · music · places

in memory of the birthday of a friend who showed me art such as this -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:55, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Rossini's Petite messe solennelle was premiered on 14 March 1864, - when I listen to the desolate Agnus Dei I think of Vami_IV. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:11, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Vacation pics uploaded, at least the first day, - and Aribert Reimann remembered. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:43, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Next day, around Porto da Cruz, on Bach's birthday --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:02, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Some days later, a calf in the mist and chocolate cake, and a story of collaboration --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:15, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I listen to Bach's St John Passion today, - 300 years after it was first performed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:44, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Lovely. I've told you many times before how important the John Passion is to me; although agnostic THE music is deeply moving from start to finish, and on a near a par with the Matthew passion. Ceoil (talk) 01:52, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and I love to hear it again and again ;) - The 300 years were not something to be mentioned on Wikipedia, though, which drove me to a round of saying so. They argued it had to be on 7 April, and I was speechless. As if the calendar date mattered and not the occasion ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I get it. The only way to survive here Gerda is to learn to take the good with the bad, keep your chin up and keep on going. Ceoil (talk) 00:41, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Do you realise that you are the second to tell me chin up? - Two days later in time, a different music, - Happy Easter! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:11, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Peer review request

Hey Ceoil. I currently have a PR open for Springsteen's Born to Run and I was wondering if you'd be able to provide some comments? Your input on my previous FACs was essential to them being promoted so I'd appreciate your input before I bring it to FAC. If not, I totally understand and it's no big deal. Hope you're doing well. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 18:27, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi zmbro, very much interested, if you can put up with the few weeks it will take me, and the usual blunt grumpiness :) Ceoil (talk) 05:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Not a problem :-) It needs to go through PR because I know it won't pass FAC in its current state. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 17:18, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Glad to be a second pair of eyes. If we hammer through the prose over the next few weeks you should be ok. The references all highly quality and the article is certainly comprehensive. Ceoil (talk) 18:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Featured Article Save Award

On behalf of your FAR colleagues, thank you, Ceoil! Your work on sex Pistols has allowed the article to retain its featured status, recognizing it as one of the best articles on Wikipedia. I hereby award you this Featured Article Save Award, or FASA. You may display this FA star upon your userpage. Keep up the great work! Cheers, ——Serial Number 54129 13:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks Serial, for all your serous help on the page. As gratitude, another FALL-esque bass driven track [35] Ceoil (talk) 04:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Cheers. That's mildly mental! Fantastic stuff. You certainly can pick em, most of what you point me at finds its way onto the exercise playlist. There's nothing like a bit of bass-driven peddling! ——Serial Number 54129 12:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Exercise? Dude ;) I haven't exercised since Nam. Ceoil (talk) 12:43, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Notice of Dispute resolution noticeboard discussion

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The discussion is about the topic Seamus Heaney.

Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you!

Thedarkknightli (talk) 18:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Imogen Stuart

On 27 March 2024, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Imogen Stuart, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. —Bagumba (talk) 07:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Summer’s gone but a lot goes on forever

[[36]]Kafka Liz ^{A girl is no one} 04:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC)