Silence of Järvenpää

Hi, Sgvrfjs

Thank you for your very kind message on my talk page. I am also interested in classical music.

I looked at your version of The Wood Nymph before anyone else edited it here and your work-in-progress on The Oceanides in your sandbox. As is, both are better than the average English Wikipedia article in writing quality and content. Wikipedia needs more editors like you.

However, you must understand that at its core Wikipedia is a wiki that is (ideally) written collaboratively. No one owns an article on Wikipedia, no matter how much work an individual put into it. No one can expect their work to remain as first written. Some edits will improve the article, some will make it worse, some are deliberate vandalism (usually infantile rather than malicious)—but usually articles tend to improve over time. Where editors disagree about something in an article, the consensus prevails. An edit is not the equivalent of a teacher, or professor, marking up your paper. Wikipedia's culture does not respect authority, academic degrees, or formal achievements.

English Wikipedia does not prefer any particular variety of the English language, although an article should consistently use the same variety. Wikipedia has a guideline on using and resolving disputes concerning varieties of English.

Wikipedia's style is loosely governed by its own Manual of Style. Some oddities in the Manual of Style reflect deliberate compromises between American English and British English where consistency is desirable. For example, article titles and section headings are capitalized according to sentence case (as in British English), but titles of English Language works use title case (as in American English). See Manual of Style § Composition titles). Some Wikipedians tend to be sticklers about matters of style; alas, I am one of those. You can avoid conflict over that by spending some time with the Manual of Style. Some Wikipedians tend to be contentions, which is a common problem in online communities; I try not to be one of those.

You do not need to work on an article in your sandbox until it is a masterpiece, and that also is not the way Wikipedia operates. I suggest that you feed content into The Oceanides and other articles gradually and do your editing directly in the article. In my experience, Wikipedia works best when editors make a lot of bite-size edits, with a descriptive edit summary, rather than in big chunks. But that is just my opinion.

Because of the quality of your work, you should aspire to have articles you care about promoted to Good Article and then to Featured Article. Politically, you improve your chance for promotion by editing collaboratively with others.—Finell 05:25, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for tone poems

Thank you for your note on my talk! Love all of it, + needed "haha" ;) - I was in no mood for decent writing yesterday, should have stayed off the keyboard, instead turned to the task of replacing "genre" by "type" in hymns and hit some tone poems because there titles could have been hymns ;) - The discussion began at Mass in C major (Beethoven) where I would not add a type because it is in the title. We should probably add "form" (Missa solemnis) but as the whole box is unwanted by some, I tread carefully. You are quite welcome to maintain the Sibelius info, - we have time until his anniversary, right? Today is the last day to improve BWV 185 because that is for tomorrow ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:33, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Gerda for your happiness! :) I'll start the standardizations on the Sibelius. Is there a place to let people know that things have been standardized, so that if people make a change to one they'll understand that they have brought it out of step with all of its cousins? Also, why would the infoboxes be controversial? I love how they quickly and succinctly relay to the reader necessary information, without having to read through the opening introduction or the whole article. Also, what does "Template:Did you know nominations/The Oceanides" mean? I am not familiar with all the Wiki politics. The Oceanides was fun to write (although I probably wrote too much; stunning, really, that this tiny piece should have more written about it than his symphonies; but maybe the Wiki labor is indicative of love rather than importance), and I was motivated by the sobering (and UNFORTUNATE!) fact that this beautiful piece has been heard by so few. It's a real shame. But the silver lining: if every masterpiece by every composer was in the standard repertoire, then there would be no hidden gems for classical music fans like us to discover! :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 17:35, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your love of this music, with infectious enthusiasm. "Why are infoboxes so controversial?" Don't ask me ;) - Did you see my user page? - Perhaps ask Opus33 who showed reluctance on the Beethoven mass. A small group including me just worked on Carl Nielsen, for the 150th anniversary. Looking forward to something similar for Sibelius, - and with more works covered! My part in Nielsen was mostly the works list, - see if you want to adopt the idea of a templated row entry for your list, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:06, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

So, I did a little editing this morning (instead of work!), and I have made a standardized format for all of the Sibelius tone poems with infoboxes that have pages. I also pasted a message on the talk pages of each infobox, as this was the only thought that came to mind about how to get everyone on the same page with the infobox (check them out :] ). Nice to hear you're working on the Nielsen pages, especially for the 150. The Sibelius 150 shouldn't be until December 8, so there is always time. I try to avoid the symphonies, Finlandia, and the violin concerto, since I'm sure there a lot of people there who are very passionate and particular! :) As for the templated row entry, I seriously considered it when overhauling the Sibelius list of works, but decided against it for two reasons: 1) the list is incomplete on most everything other than the orchestral; and, 2) I just like find it easier (in my personal opinion) to have the traditional Wiki format (since you lose your place and sorting on the template if you click on a link). But I'm sure someone will do it eventually, just not me! Haha. Is the sortable list of works considered superior or better or more complete? Please let me know if you have any other suggestions on the infoboxes (I sure hope someone doesn't come along and take them all down!). Thanks! Sgvrfjs (talk) 19:44, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, for the infoboxes and your ideas! - One of the stranger concepts is that whoever writes an article has some initial say about style, - and some think an infobox is just style. I am not a missionary ;) - So I think people will think twice before removing yours, and if, discuss. - When the time comes you can suggest an infobox for one of the symphonies, actually No. 1 has a miniature one ;) - One of the Dvořák symphonies has one because I expanded that article, No. 8. - The sortable list for Nielsen came from lazy me looking at three lists in one, by genre, by FS # and by Op. #, - and if you had to change something you had to change it 3 times ... - The other is brandnew, nobody did such a thing before, but some like it, - it's sortable by genre, title, the 3 numbers, poet, key - as you like it ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:07, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Precious

music by Sibelius
Thank you for quality contributions to articles on the music by Jean Sibelius, beginning with an addition to his list of works, adding detailed infoboxes, expanding stubs such The Oceanides, for compleating the list and for spirited talk, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:18, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

A year ago, you were recipient no. 1252 of Precious, a prize of QAI! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:16, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Today: The Oceanides, "his second to last tone poem and is widely considered to be one of his most underappreciated (and underplayed) masterpieces." - thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:51, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Five years ago now! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:36, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Main Sibelius article

Hi Sgvrfjs. I have been impressed by your recent work on Sibelius, esepcially The Oceanides and The Wood Nymph. You have an appealing style and present all the essential facts in your articles. You may have noticed that we have started work on an expansion of the main Jean Sibelius article which I think needs to be improved to at least GA status, possibly even FA, in time for his 150th anniversary on 8 December. While your efforts on his individual compositions and the list of works are very useful as sources in this connection, I wonder whether I could persuade you to collaborate in further work on the main article . We still have a few months left but I would like to avoid the last minute rush we had with Carl Nielsen which we just managed to complete in time. If you don't yet feel like editing the article itself, any advice you may have would be greatly appreciated.

On the list of works, there is a detailed comprehensive list in Andrew Barnett's Sibelius (2007) which runs to no less than 44 pages! We had ambitions on providing a comprehensive list for Nielsen but to do so for Sibelius would require enormous effort. As he wrote so many songs and choral compositions, perhaps a separate list could be devoted to these. As for "sortable" lists, I must say that I am rather old-fashioned and find the type of list you have been working on easier to absorb than fully sortable lists like the one Gerda Arendt created for Nielsen, but I am probably in the minority.

I see you have also been encouraging standardized info boxes for Sibelius's compositions. While I seldom include info boxes in my articles on music and art, I have nothing against them (unlike some other Wikipedians) and think you have made a sound proposal. Nevertheless, as you must know, anyone can edit Wikipedia, so don't be disappointed if people come along and make changes.

If you think there's anything I can help you with, just let me know.--Ipigott (talk) 10:11, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

It's so very kind of you to write, Ipigott. :) First of all, thank you for noticing (and approving of) my expansion to The Wood Nymph and The Oceanides. These are, as you may have guessed, personal favorites of mine, and I have sought to remedy what I see as their relative neglect. I was, to be quite honest, not aware of an ongoing, all-hands-on-deck project to improve the Sibelius pages for the 150 (I kind of exist in a Wikipedia bubble), but am glad to hear of the enterprise. In general, I have avoided what I consider to be the most important Sibelius pages (i.e., his main page and the symphonies and violin concerto), because I fear editing wars and conflict, and as an inexperienced editor without any formal training in music, I see it was my responsibility to stay out of the way of the professionals. :) I'm a PhD student in the USA (in political science), and so my Wikipedia edits are a side hobby mainly.

But, while I'm not sure I can help too much (especially in July and August) on major edits, I am more than happy to be kept in the loop and sent little requests by the Sibelius editing power team that be. We are in agreement about the old-fashioned lists rather than the sortable one (the latter is just SO HARD to read...). Talking with the lovely Gerda Arendt, it seems she opted for the sortable list on Nielsen because she tired of editing a chronological and opus lists in tandem. With Sibelius, and his absolutely meaningless opus numbers, we really have no need for the latter. True, the existing list is not technically chronological either, being divided into sections, but if this approach is good enough for Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Mendelssohn, and Brahms, then I think it's good enough for Sibelius, too. That said, I think I erred in not placing the Op. number in bold at the front, a nice touch to be found on the Mendelssohn, Tchaikovsky, and Brahms pages. I too am familiar with the Barnett (2007) list and had been writing out the songs in my sandbox, but tired of the task, especially since I do not actually know this music. As for the main page, I agree that it needs some work, in that it seems to be not at the same level as the main pages for other illustrious composers. I would, of course, be interested in hearing any ideas for improvement you all might have, hopefully starting with a tighter opening (of course, I am predisposed to the first paragraph intro I wrote on the list of compositions page...haha). It has also always seemed odd to me to list violinist before composer. Tell you what, I need to read through the main article again before I can comment meaningfully on it; I can be in touch with suggestions.

Anyway, it's so nice to establish contact. My apologies for burning all of my fuel on obscure tone poem pages that probably no one clicks on or reads, rather than the main page or the symphonies, but at least we now have the most complete articles on these two pieces on the internet! Thanks for the compliments on my style and thoroughness; compliments like these keep editors like me running :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 17:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, one more thing. I added (finally!) the remaining content I had on The Oceanides: I had left the composition section incomplete due to other commitments. I added it today. I noticed that you and a couple of other editors were going through and fixing my mistakes (I guess programme should be program and ." should be ".). Thanks! And sorry for my errors. (also, is it Sibelius' or Sibelius's???). As for whether he received $1200 in total or $1200 on top of the first $1000, obviously I read it as the latter in Tawaststjerna 1986, p. 246. But that the same thing you cited! So, hmmm...I changed it for now to "as compensation, Sibelius would receive $1,200, as well as an honorary doctorate of music from Yale University" which seems to be a suitably vague enough to encompass both positions until we work out the truth. :) Thoughts? Thanks! Sgvrfjs (talk) 18:39, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for including me, all good plans and ideas! As for the Oceanides, they will not stay in the obscure but appear in the limelight of the Main page soon, in the "Did you know?" section (DYK), actually tomorrow, second half of the day ;) - I don't expect record numbers of viewers (5.000 and up are recorded) but a few hundred, - and sometimes (not to often) readers have ideas for improvement, - enjoy! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:49, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Awesome! I made a last couple of ." to ". and ," to ", edits that others had missed, so the whole article should be following the same rule as of now. Hopefully this means the piece is ready to go for tomorrow. Fingers crossed, and thanks Gerda Arendt for making this happen. :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 19:41, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

(Just Gerda is fine ;) ) - My pleasure! Doesn't happen often to come across an article with GA qualities from the start, thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:52, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Do you think we can nominate The Oceanides and the Wood Nymph for GA status? I think they're both ready at last! And, what do they need to become FA? Sgvrfjs (talk) 00:55, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I think you can. It doesn't take more than copying a little string to the very top of the article talk. You find it in the instructions, "subtopic=Music". Do one at a time because there may be questions and answers which you can apply to the other before even nominating. I suggest the Nymphes, because once GA, that could also be nominated for the Main page. (It was too late for DYK which has to happen a week after creation or expansion.) If you want to read GA reviews beforehand, go to the talk of any article with a little green icon in the upper right, - a link to the discussion will be on the talk page. (Some green is on my user page, the top one still needs a review to be started.) - FA to follow ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:31, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks, Sgvrfjs, for your detailed explanations and offer of support. You certainly don't need professional qualifications in music to be able to write good Wikipedia articles on the subject. The ones you have already put together are ample proof. I am no Sibelius expert either, although I enjoy his music. The reason I have taken a recent interest in him is that cultural coverage of the Nordic countries is rather weak on Wikipedia and I thought such a well-known international figure deserved far better coverage for his 150th anniversary. I welcome you initial ideas on improvement, including those on the Sibelius talk page. As for bringing The Oceanides and the Wood Nymph up to GA, I think you should go for it. Rather than nominating immediately, I think you might benefit by calling on other experts on music such as Tim riley whose advice was extemely useful in connection with Nielsen. On The Oceanides, did you know the piece was included in the [1] NY Phil's concert on February 26-28? Perhaps you can find some reviews. The Wood Nymph will be included in the Lahti Symphony Orchestra's concert on September 1. We should keep in touch.--Ipigott (talk) 07:43, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I suggest you nominate the nymphs and ask Tim to do the review ;) - sample pictured, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:52, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

DYK for The Oceanides

Gatoclass (talk) 12:01, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Congratulations on your first DYK and for promoting information about Sibelius during his anniversary year.--Ipigott (talk) 13:01, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I support that! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:16, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks everyone! What a great day! Thanks for all of your help; it's a team accomplishment. :D Okay, I need to take a break and go to work :/ Sgvrfjs (talk) 16:21, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Today is the next great day: for GA (good article and my initials) you follow the link WP:GA (hint: whenever you don't know a Wikipedia abbreviation you look for a construction with "WP:" in front) and read what you think you may need. I can tell you that the most important information is another link in the top line saying "Instructions". In there, the step to prepare the article is described. I think the article is ready but you know it more intimately, please check. You will not be punished for missing a point, I have not experienced a single review which was not a pleasant exchange of ideas, even the one that failed. - When that step is done, follow the next step to nominate. If you have questions on the way fell free to ask ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:58, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Hi Gerda! I made the nomination thanks to your help. Now, how do I request Tim's help? :) Also, one question, why are DYK considered important? PS: Thanks for letting me make the GA nomination. I have read so much about the topic, and I think it's ready. Sgvrfjs (talk) 07:05, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

DYK articles are checked for criteria by a reviewer, and the exposure on the Main page attracts readers for your topic who don't normally search for it. The statistics for yesterday are not out yet, but the day before show 130, just for being lined up for DYK. - Go to Tim riley, image on his user page but I don't want to ping him again, here, and see if you want to chime in. (Another hint: before adding a new topic to someone's talk, look around, for the mood of the recipient and if a thread is perhaps already started.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:15, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Thanks, Gerda, for your time. Once again, you look out for me and already contacted Tim. I really appreciate it; seems like you have it covered (even played a song of woe about my discouragement, haha), so I won't make any changes. I don't really know what to expect, but I'm sure a lot of work will be needed to bring it up to GA status. I was just reading through the Wikipedia Manual of Style, and noticed that I probably could be accused of editorializing and using unnecessary/discouraged language. Maybe I should have learned these things first, before writing articles. Oh well, both you and Ipigott read it through and seemed to think it was good enough to try. Thanks for the explanation on DYK; 130 just from the queue! Wow :) ...it will be fun to see the hits from yesterday once they come out of the oven. Sgvrfjs (talk) 07:28, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Some days there are no hits, for some days they come later, - whatever: these figures should not be overestimated. My prediction would be 1k, - classical music is not the greatest hit, you better mention Hitler or sex to get in the higher regions ;) - starting 5k gets your article to the statistics. I personally don't care, - it's enough for me to know that a few readers will look who otherwise never meet the article. - Did you know that I made a DYK about encouragement ("Hook" on the talk, look up in times of need)? (also not my article) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:37, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Haha :) I have no comments! Thanks for fixing the GA post with Top means Top...sorry :/ Okay, I'm signing off. Happy editing. :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 07:40, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

See? Bot working nicely, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:43, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

See stats: 1032, - I am impressed by my estimate ;) - There will be extras for the time early today, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:15, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the update! I, too, am impressed by your precognition. :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 17:48, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Hi, Gerda! Lovely day, and hope your edits go well. :) I guess we haven't heard from Tim about the Oceanides GA? Sgvrfjs (talk) 04:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Edits go well, every day a singer on DYK, did you know, all because of this ;) - Read Tim's page, he was on vacation, had a difficult GA review (finished) and plans a FA on a composer, - that translates to "nusy" for me ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:30, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of The Oceanides

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article The Oceanides you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Tim riley -- Tim riley (talk) 21:00, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Apologies for the frightful English the bot perpetrates in my name. I have left some comments on the review page that you may like to consider. Tim riley talk 17:28, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of The Oceanides

The article The Oceanides you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:The Oceanides for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Tim riley -- Tim riley (talk) 20:21, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Good! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:44, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt, Tim riley, and Ipigott: - Ya-hooo! Thanks to everyone for their patience, edits, and assistance. The Oceanides is a marvelous piece truly deserving of the attention we gave it. A great example of team work! And now, for The Wood Nymph to eventually make GA! :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 21:44, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

with you ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:48, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Congratulations on your first GA. I'm sure there will be many more to come. I had not noticed the article was being reviewed and see that everything had been completed before I looked in. Well done!--Ipigott (talk) 06:43, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

You might like to replace the rather noisy photo of Sibelius on this and other articles with File:Jean sibelius-2.jpg which is also on the main Sibelius page.--Ipigott (talk) 06:47, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

FAC for The Oceanides

@Gerda Arendt, Tim riley, and Ipigott:. So how does one go about getting The Oceanides placed as an FA nominee? I should think that it's quite close to being at that level, since I have now executed Tim's recommendation that interesting but non-essential content be footnoted; I have copied his notation and citation practices from Ravel. Thanks! Sgvrfjs (talk) 20:51, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

You go to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates (WP:FAC) and follow the instructions. Perhaps before you do, read the nomination for his Eighth, and prepare some invitation like there for reviewers. I would mention that it's your first FAC. When nominated, also list at WP:QAIPOST, please. You will need at least five supports and no oppose for the delegates to consider promotion. Good luck. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

That's good advice from Gerda. I certainly think you should go ahead. I know several of us would support FA. Good luck.--Ipigott (talk) 21:52, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, all. I have made the nomination; hope I did it correctly! :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 23:16, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

You did well, but not enough. Differently from GA, you have to do three more steps. YOU initialize the nomination by writing something kind and interesting to lure reviewers - compare the Eighth. THEN you have to copy the title of that FAC to the general FAC page, which all people interested in FAs watch, as you insert a DYK nomination in the nom page. More good luck! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:50, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, but I don't understand: I did all of those things. On my computer, the FAC page has the title The Oceanides and the invitation I wrote last night posted. But, the link on The Oceanides talk page is still red that says initiate the nomination. I followed the four steps. Sgvrfjs (talk) 13:07, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. You did well, - I only saw the red link, but now checked that it goes to the correct nomination. A mystery to me, calling an expert. If that doesn't help talk to the FAC page, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Any luck? I really appreciate your help. Sgvrfjs (talk) 15:56, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I thought you would ask, - I did it now. I have no time yet for a review myself, but there's no rush. Have a wake-up call on the Main page, did you know? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:31, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Tidying up Jean Sibelius

Hi Sgvrfjs. I wonder if you could spare some of your valuable time to help out with tidying up the Jean Sibelius article in the next few days in the hope we can work it up to GA in time for a DYK on 8 December. I'm afraid my own progress on the article has been rather slow but I have now at least completed the section on the history of his life. There are however a few paragraphs in the article which are still unreferenced, particularly towards the end. Unfortunately I am now in Luxembourg and do not have access to all the library books on Sibelius I can find in Denmark. If I remember correctly, you have nearly all relevant works at home. Perhaps you could look through the article and provide missing citations if you can find them without too much trouble. If not, the passages will probably have to be deleted. Any suggestions you may have for further work on the article would be appreciated. I see you are making good progress on En Saga.--Ipigott (talk) 11:59, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi, @Ipigott:! First of all, thank you so very much for your labors on the Jean Sibelius main page: while all editors perform useful tasks, I really appreciate someone who is driven to create and expand original content. My exams went well, and so of course I find myself back on Wikipedia to write the article I always thought I would tackle first: En saga (I guess somehow The Wood Nymph and The Oceanides jumped the queue). Anyway, I'm making good progress, as you can see. As for your kind request to provide citations, unfortunately I TOO find myself away from my books, as I have traveled for Thanksgiving. All I have with me are my notes on En saga. I'll let you know if and when I can assist. Sgvrfjs (talk) 15:50, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for getting back to me on this. If you manage to contribute to the Sibelius article in time, it would be much appreciated. I am expecting to receive some feedback from Tim Riley which will no doubt reveal other weaknesses. I have been following your work on En saga and it is indeed coming along very well. Enjoy your Thanksgiving.--Ipigott (talk) 08:55, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi, @Ipigott:! Will do. It occured to me that there are two things I don't know how to do that you might be able to help on. Both seem rather painless for the well-trained Wikipedian (not me). First, the Template: List of Orchestral Works by Jean Sibelius needs to be renamed Template: Jean Sibelius. Second, the page En Saga needs to be renamed En saga, so as to maintain consistency. Thoughts? Sgvrfjs (talk) 16:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

The title of the template is in fact Jean Sibelius while its name is "Works for Orchestra by Jean Sibelius". The List of compositions by Jean Sibelius is a normal article. Do you want the template to be called Template:Jean Sibelius because you want to include additional items over and above the orchestral compositions? I can't move En Saga to En saga as there is a redirect with that title but I have asked an administrator to handle it.--Ipigott (talk) 16:35, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi, @Ipigott:! Thanks! Seems the editor has changed En Saga to the appropriate En saga; however, doing so upset/broke the page links to the old capitalized version. I have gone through a number of pages (Jean Sibelius, The Oceanides, Template:Works for Orchestra by Jean Sibelius, List of compositions by Jean Sibelius) to reestablish the key links. I have also checked the pages of all compositions on the list of compositions page, only one of which (The Wood Nymph) has a reference to En saga, it was already in the lowercased form. I'm glad we finally got this fixed to the appropriate lowercased version. As for the template, another editor a while ago thought it should just be called Template: Jean Sibelius, and he attempted to make the change, but I don't believe it was completely successful: it only changed the title of the box, not the corresponding template page name. He seemed to think that it should be just Jean Sibelius so that it can accommodate eventually more than just the orchestral works and so that he could add a related articles section, which I later added to. After looking at templates for other composers (all of which are by names) I agreed. But I find the difference in names between the box and the page sloppy, and yet I don't know how to fix it. See: Template talk:Works for Orchestra by Jean Sibelius. Also, is it just me or is a collapsed table super annoying and counterproductive in that it adds an extra click! I wish it'd go back to non-collapsable. Sigh. Thanks for your help! Sgvrfjs (talk) 03:14, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi, @Ipigott:! What does it mean for my En saga sandbox page to have been "patrolled"? Does this mean I am doing something against Wikipedia policy? Just curious. Sgvrfjs (talk) 15:50, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

@Sgvrfjs: think it has something to do with your being able to move your user page draft into the main space. It's not that anyone is stalking you. Depending on the "status" of contributors, the pages created require patrolling. But please don't worry about it. As you are not creating a new article, you can just add your ongoing work to the existing page.--Ipigott (talk) 16:05, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Also, what do you think about The Oceanides making FA? And The Wood Nymph making GA? Is this something desirable to work towards? Thanks for the guidance. Sgvrfjs (talk) 03:26, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I have removed the infobox as their is currently a discussion about it going on on the talk page. I would agree, however, that the new image is a lot better than the old one. Cassianto^Talk 09:02, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

OK Sgvrfjs. On En saga vs En Saga, I let the lower-case version run for a while alone so I could pick up all the remaining upper-case occurrences and correct them. With your help too, I think they have now all been covered. It is however true that the En Saga form is quite often used in English publications, concert programmes, etc. For this reason, I have added a redirect from En Saga. So there should not be any problems in future. I've moved the template as requested and agree with the logic. On The Oceanides, I think there is great potential for FA, ditto The Wood Nymph for GA or even FA. I would nevertheless like to firm up the main Jean Sibelius article in time for a GA within the next week to 10 days in order to have it displayed as a DYK on 8 December. If it runs into problems before the end of next week, then we could try to take The Wood Nymph to GA so that there is at least something on the main page for 8 December. I'll now get back to expanding the music section on the basis of Tim's remarks (see my talk page).--Ipigott (talk) 14:12, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Imho, it doesn't hurt at all to nominate both Oceanides and Wood Nymph for FA/GA right now. Remember Nielsen. Wood Nymph for a DYK on the birthday. If Sinatra can have 16 hooks one day, Sibelius can have two. (I did one on Kafka's birthday, remember?) - Loved your version of the composer, Sgvrfjs (see top of my user page.) The symphonies could all look a little more like the first, no? Can the tag go? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:03, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: The only reason I expressed hesitation was that I hoped Sgvrfjs could help out with the main biography as a priority. I think we should do what we can to get that article up to GA in time. But given the excellent quality of both The Oceanides and The Wood Nymph, perhaps those could indeed be nominated now as you suggest. It would be great if The Oceanides could reach FA in time for the 8th but it might already be too late.--Ipigott (talk) 08:02, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I said nominate and meant nominate ;) - I think no work is needed, so no loss for the bio. If a reviewer thinks work is needed, that's fine, and can be done or not THEN. No need for a FA, the Eighth is already scheduled. I don't think the readers care much about little star. I think they might like an infobox, but who cares about the readers when it comes to that topic ;) - Did you know that the Bruckner symphonies had an infobox in 2007? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:17, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Gerda, for keeping us informed about Symphony No. 8 (Sibelius). It's a good article and will probably attract wide interest.--Ipigott (talk) 21:45, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Accessibility

I went over the tone poems, trying to install accessibility features for which I don't get punished. One is {{lang}}, indicating the language of text other than English, useful for people using screenreaders. Another is {{start date}}, which elegantly translates to other languages. I used European date format for the European topic, hope that was right? - Some of his compositions seem to be unreferenced. - The template has red links, - I hope the navbox-purists don't see that ;) - I am not happy with the list of his works having the original title first, but our articles English, - but then that was the same for Kafka. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:26, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I wonder why many articles have {{Works for Orchestra by Jean Sibelius}} while it could be simply {{Jean Sibelius}}? I suggest to have it collapsed, at least in short articles, as for example Voces intimae. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:10, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for you message Gerda. I can address a few of your points. 1) The reason the navbox has a number of red links is because, when I made it last year, I thought it advisable to include 'links-in-waiting' in the navbox for important articles that, while not currently having a page, should nonetheless get one eventually. I was not then, and am not now, familiar will all of the Wikipedia customs, and so I had no idea that the navbox purists would frown upon the red links. Do you think they should be removed? I'd also like to hear Ipigott (talk · contribs)'s thoughts on this matter. 2) The navbox was originally named {{Works for Orchestra by Jean Sibelius}}, and was recently changed to {{Jean Sibelius}}, per the help of Ipigott and one other user. Because the navbox still appeared on the pages, I didn't think I needed to go in to each page and change the code from the former to the latter, but I am happy to do so if you think this is cleaner/more professional. 3) I really don't like seeing the navbox collapsed, because I think it defeats it purpose. On short, articles, perhaps. But I prefer the autocollapse feature, so that it's there until the page becomes crowded with other navboxes. 4) I am unfamiliar with accessibility features and don't really understand what you did. Is this something you are planning to do systematically across the Sibelius compositions articles? Perhaps you can explain it to me. 5) In the Oceanides GA edits we settled on American style dates, rather than European, because the piece premiered in the US. I, however, think it'd be better if, at least in the Sibelius articles, we picked one and stuck to it (like selecting Sibelius' over Sibelius's or tone poem over symphonic poem). If you and Ipigott and others think European dates are the best route, then no problem. Just let me KNOW, so that I can fix the 2 tone poem articles I have written and not make the same mistake in my on-going En saga expansion. Thanks! Sgvrfjs (talk) 01:22, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• The red links in the navbox should be created, not removed ;) (If some are left in the end, the purists can remove them.)
• I would stick to all-European dates for Sibelius, a European composer, and all his works, for consistency, but am not passionate about it. I think to have American dates for a piece just because it happens to have been premiered in the US is a bit arbitrary, - as if where it was premiered was more important than where is was composed.
• {{lang}}: please click and read, - in short: for people who can's see but have our articles read to them by "screenreaders", the template tells the device "from here to end bracket, the language is not English but Swedish" (or Finnish, or French ...), so that the device doesn't try to apply English pronunciation to the Swedish (or or) names. I don't know what it actually does then, but you can ask Graham87 who is blind. It's a good idea to apply it to all non-English terms in all articles!

Just for fun: I have a composition on the Main page today, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:31, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

There are quite a few issues here. First of all, thank you Gerda for your contributions and your continuing interest in Sibelius. While your edits are not immediately obvious in the articles as normally displayed, they no doubt enhance general "accessibility" as you call it while contributing to your understandable German preference for Ordnung muss sein (note the markup). As for consistency in dates, we may be fighting a losing battle. In general, the creator of an article usually decides on the date structure. Some even specify their preference at the top of the edit version. In practice, we all usually try to maintain the established approach on the articles we edit. I don't know to what extent consistency in the dates of articles on other composers has been achieved. Nor am I certain we need to work in that direction. As with boxes, I am not really bothered about it as long as there is consistency within each individual article. If I remember correctly, Sgvrfjs has already been through one set of date changes on one of the tone poems. It seems to me to be rather a waste of time moving backwards and forwards. If another American editor creates articles on S's other pieces, we may well be faced with the same problem again. You are absolutely right in pointing out that many of the articles on S's compositions are unreferenced. There is indeed a tremendous amount of work to be done on nearly all of them. The problem no doubt dates back to the time when Wikipedia articles (like those in most other encyclopaedias) simply provided a list of the sources consulted without any in-line referencing. I know from my own experience how difficult it is to add in-line references to such articles at a later date. It is far more difficult than rewriting them from scratch and that's probably why people have not been keen to work on them. In regard to the red links in the navbox, I am not against them. The pieces in question obviously need to be included, whether red linked or black linked. The red links may be preferable as they encourage the writing of new articles. Autocollapse is fine. As for the list of compositions, Sgvrfjs is to be congratulated on his diligence. I am perfectly happy to see the original title first. A choice obviously needed to be made as even in English-language publications the original Swedish or Finnish titles of a significant number of works are those most commonly used. Let's keep it the way it is -- in the interests of consistency. I think this also answers most of the queries from Sgvrfjs. As a footnote to this discussion on accessibility and consistency, while I welcome some of the recent updates to the Wikidata entry on Jean Sibelius, I must say I am surprised that none of his symphonies are mentioned under "notable works" while at the very top of the data items we read "instrument: violin". Even Yehudi Menuhin does not qualify for inclusion in this category although he is listed as a composer (but, like Sibelius, not as a "virtuoso" or "instrumentalist"! Maybe Gerda can help to sort this out.--Ipigott (talk) 09:58, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughts. It was not me who called it accessibilty, - making our articles useful for readers with different needs. There was even a discussion to have it as the sixths pillar. - We agree (and let's just talk about Sibelius-related articles) that ...

... red links in the navbox are no problem

... two different names for the same navbox are no problem

... autocollapsed for the navbox is fine, but can be changed in a short article

... original titles first in the list of compositions are preferable

... original titles should appear also in the composition article, and have a redirect

... English titles as article names are no problem

... American dates in articles are no problem (but I still prefer European composition dates in the infoboxes)

... noref-tag: adding at least one inline ref and removing tag is wanted

Everybody can edit Wikidata. Normally the data are fed by an infobox ;) - I have other priorities, would like to expand Voces intimae for a DYK, - help welcome ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:56, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Everybody has permission to edit Wikidata, perhaps, but I am just not up to it and cannot spend hours or days on finding out how it works. Anyway, thanks Gerda for your summary and good luck with Voces intimae. I wonder how the language tag for Latin will have this read out for the blind: high-church Latin pronunciation (Woe keys in team eye) or the Italianate approach (Vochis in tea may)? Perhaps neither!--Ipigott (talk) 11:31, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

The language tags let the screen reader user have the text read out to them in the specified language if a speech synthesizer if that language is installed on their system. I personally have this feature turned off (but I have some very eccentric settings on my screen reader), but other blind people find it very important. Graham87 12:44, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Continued from higher up: Template:Did you know nominations/Voces intimae (Sibelius), and I think the quartet deserves a place in the bio. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Sibelius categories

Hi, Gerda Arendt and Ipigott. I just wanted to raise a second minor clerical issue that I have noticed. The Category:Symphonic poems by Jean Sibelius page includes Kullervo, which various sources have classified as a choral symphony (which Wikipedia chooses as its preferred designation), a cantata, or a suite of tone poems. I myself have listed Kullervo in the List of compositions by Jean Sibelius under the subsection Chorus and Orchestra, while providing a small text page up under Symphonies, to reflect the fact that some sources consider Kullervo to be a Sibelius symphony. Here's the issue, I think in the interest of consistency, Kullervo should be removed from the category page of tone poems, because often it is not presented as such (contrast this to Lemminkäinen) and, potentially, added to Category:Symphonies by Jean Sibelius. A third option would be to allow Lemminkäinen and (possibly) Kullervo to both be in the symphonic poem category and the symphony category. I should add of course, that the exact number of tone poems by Sibelius depends on the source, but 13 are indisputable (1. En saga; 2. Spring Song; 3. The Wood Nymph; 4. Lemmkäinen (actually 4 in all); 5. Finlandia; 6. Pohjola's Daughter; 7. Pan and Echo; 8. The Dryad; 9. Nightride and Sunrise; 10. The Bard; 11. Luonnotar; 12. The Oceanides; and, 13. Tapiola.). Sometimes you also see inclusion of Dance Intermezzo and In Memoriam, and maybe Cassazione, but I chose a long time ago to place these works under Other Orchestra on the list of compositions page. Thoughts? Sgvrfjs (talk) 01:57, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

As you are especially interested in the tone poems, I concur with your analysis. Please go ahead with the changes you suggest.--Ipigott (talk) 07:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I think a piece can be in more than category, see Lobgesang, for the longest time regarded as Mendelsohn's 2nd symphony. In the list,you managed well to make the interrelations visible. I would prefer if that was not small font, though.

Sibelius questions

As they come, looking closer at his works:

• I began Oma maa, planned English, but there are many different translations around, from a simple "My Land" to "Our Native Land" - German would probably be "Meine Heimat" but there's no good English word for Heimat, right? Also: the red link was Finnish.

The preferred English name seems to be "Our Native Land" but it would be more correctly translated as "My Native Land". The English actually translate Heimat as "mother country" whereas the Americans increasingly use "homeland". Take your pick!--Ipigott (talk) 08:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

See also this account which calls it "My Own Land" and provides quite a bit of background information.--Ipigott (talk) 08:31, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, will include (the ref is already in place, commented out, I only need to add link and title, was too tired yesterday). "Own land" is a try to render "Heimat", and is mentioned in the article, but "own" is such an ambiguous term, bringing ownership to mind. "Native land" is a different try, - I would say home country, and "maa" looks more like "my" than "our" to me, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:12, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• I wonder if we should have the translation linked in the navbox, - I suggest to link only the name and have the translation unlinked in brackets.
• For Voces, one source has a Berlin premiere in Berlin, in January 1910, vs. the one more frequently mentioned in April in Helsinki. Any other info about that? Perhaps played in Berlin but not public? Any source for the translation "Inner Voices", a header on the Sibelius site which makes a lot of sense to me?
• How about showing Sibelius at an age close to a composition, as for the Bruckner symphonies?
• How about (short) infoboxes for the symphonies?

I plan to fill more red links, then add to those new articles, then source the older ones, - let's see how far we get. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:44, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Snöfrid (Sibelius): is the text Swedish (as by the author) or Finnish, as the score claims? - Relation to the Wood nymph? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:15, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Update: no more redlinks in the navbox.

• I decided for In Memoriam (vs. In memoriam), per the Sibelius site
• The Dryad / Dryaden / Dryadi ?
• King Christian II Suite - but there's also incidental
• Tulen synty (vs. Tulen Synty)

Two hooks in prep for DYK on 8 Dec, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:20, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Well done, indeed, Gerda! Thanks for filling in the navbox red links. Sorry, I cannot help out more, but I see my long-term role as expanding stubs, not creating them. As for your questions above, I also have never been able to find out definitively which language Snöfrid is, but my guess is Swedish since the story comes from Swedish poet Viktor Rydberg. As for the others, in Swedish and I think Finnish too, it's common practice to keep the second word lowercase; hence, Tulen synty (The Origin of Fire), not Tulen Synty (The Origin of Fire), so En saga (A Saga, A Fairy Tale, or A Legend), not En Saga. I have always seen Dryadi as the Finnish for The Dryad, and don't know about the Swedish Dryaden. Where have you seen this? The Dryad is from 1909, I think, right before the Fourth Symphony, and it seems to me like he had by then transitioned away from the Swedish titles (En saga, Skogsrået, Vårsång) of his youth towards Finnish ones, considering the politics of the times and his status as a national authority. Oh and look at this infobox in all its wonderous glory! https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Sibelius :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 23:26, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Happy birthday!

Jean Sibelius
{{Jean Sibelius}}

Thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:04, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

nontrivial addition to lede in oceanides

Revert if dislike. Cheers. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 16:16, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

• I'm sorta waiting to see if my additions are OK with you. BTW, Ginette Neveu and Sibelius' Violin Concerto... "I'm speechless" is about all I can say. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 02:08, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
  • So sorry for the delay, but I've been busy with the start of the new semester. I'm so glad you enjoyed listening to the Sibelius Violin Concerto, one of his greatest works (although I have never heard the Neveu interpretation; I'll have to Spotify it!); not sure if you're new to Sibelius, but I really recommend (other The Oceanides, of course!) Pohjola's Daughter, En saga, Symphony No. 5, No. 7, and No. 2. Honestly, all the symphonies are masterful (although No. 6 is one I still haven't fallen head over heals for). As for the lede changes you made to The Oceanides, I like what I see; I completely agree with you that the lede should, in retrospect, have something about the impressionist interpretations. The reason I have originally left it out was because I believed there was no consensus among scholars and because Sibelius himself would certainly not have described his work using such a term (I read this somewhere; I should try to find that quote, as it would be good in the article). I may find myself tinkering eventually in a few minor spots, but overall, I really thank you for strengthening the article. Hopefully, you'll eventually find your way to supporting FA. As for your previous question on progressive tonality and Sibelius' style, it is very difficult to classify him for two reasons: 1) his style evolved overtime, and it seems as though scholars mark three periods: romantic (starts with Kullervo and ends with, probably, the Violin Concerto); continues into a a mix of classicism (Symphony No. 3) and 'expressionism' (Symphony No. 4); before turning to a neo-classicism (Symphony No. 5, No. 6, No. 7); and 2) because his style/idiom is so unique, so idiosyncratic, that it really defies classification. I certainly think of Sibelius as a 'modernist' (and certainly he was hailed by contemporary accounts as one), but today (well, since maybe the 1950s) he has been branded as kind of conservative, since he never abandoned tonality (such as Schoenberg and Stravinsky, arch-modernists who went atonal) or the importance of melody (such as Debussy and the other impressionists); his style is perhaps best described as 'organic', whatever that really means. His tonality is progressive in that he sought out new chords and combinations of notes (esp. Symphony No. 4, but the other later ones, too) but never jumped into the chasm that is atonality. As for Impressionism and The Oceanides, it's true that the piece is very unique sounding relative to the other works in his oeuvre, but certainly other compositions of his have also been described as Impressionist (e.g., The Swan of Tuolena, written in 1893-1895, well before the impressionist movement!!!). In writing the article, I chose to portray the debate but avoid touching on who is right (i.e., is The Oceanides different from his other works or not), since I am not trained in music and wanted to avoid editorializing. Hope this all is informative and helps! Thanks again for your help. Sgvrfjs (talk) 04:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
• I gave it Conditional Support contingent on references check. May be too busy to do anything soon. Would like to help with other Sibelius articles in the future. later! Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 04:46, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
  • The paintings in The Oceanides are aesthetic additions that are kinda optional in the first place, and can either be swapped out for ones that have full provenance etc., or in the worst case scenario simply removed. They are not a major problem; merely an inconvenience. Those three photos of the Stoeckels and The Music Shed are, in my opinion, another matter entirely. They add significant visual content to the article, IMO. I have searched for a while and turned up no info about them. I'm afraid that if you want to keep them, you may have to email your contact again and ask three questions: were they published anywhere before 1923, and if not, who took the photos and when did that person/persons pass away. I am a little afraid these questions will annoy your contact, but... maybe not. Maybe it's worth a try. It's your call. OK, wait... I've got provenance for PD on a postcard of the exterior of the Music shed. Will run that by Nikkimaria. Do you want to keep the photo of the Stoeckels and the interior of the shed? If so, then you still need to try emailing... Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 14:02, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
    • Gosh, Lingzhi. You really have come through on The Oceanides with flying colors. I will reach out to the email contact at the Norfolk Festival soon and see if she can find any information. It's too bad that we have lost so many good images, but at least we still have Stenhammar, Debussy, and Parker. I wish we could hold on to the Gallen-Kallela Aallotaret painting, since he is a Finnish artist who Sibelius was friends with. Any way we can get that one back? As for the other random paintings, I was pretty sure I was going to have to drop them anyway, because Gerda advised me that the images needed to connect to the article better. Sorry also that my energy for the FAC has flagged; I guess I just enjoy creating content (at a near-FAC level, I hope) more than I enjoy thinking about copyright issues! :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 23:24, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
      • I will try to rescue the Gallen-Kallela (BTW, some books refer to the painting as Aallottaria), but I know practically zero about licensing. I am learning as I go. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 05:04, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
        • I admit that it's kind of disappointing to lose all these images that I have grown to like a lot. Moreover, I think it speaks to a larger point: why are there so many images on Wikicommons that are not appropriate for editors to use? If it's a copyright issue, why does FAC matter; a violation is a violation, stub, good article, featured article, etc. notwithstanding. I am at work on my Madetoja expansion and I have carefully selected the images that I think enhance the article (even worked to get some loaded up through a helper named Revent, but gosh, what if they don't survive? Is the solution not to go for FAC nominations? Thanks again for your help! :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 05:32, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
          • I suppose the solution is to learn about licensing, or find someone who already has. I think the Moran is very appropriate, but I never liked the Bouguereau (too much nymph and not enough water) or the Poynter (because it has a ship and a cave, neither of which seems appropriate in context). As for Gallen-Kallela, I did find a quote in a book which explicitly links it to Sibelius, FWIW. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 05:43, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
            • I agree with you; it's hard to find pictures for a non-bio, in my opinion. What book explicitly links the Gallen painting to Sibelius' tone poem? Or did you mean links Gallen and Sibelius as friends? I'd be interested to know. I remember seeing the Moran on your page at one point! :) So, I guess we both find this painting very captivating and beautiful. Of all the artworks, in my mind this is what I "see" when I listen to The Oceanides! I wish we could have saved it. Sgvrfjs (talk) 05:46, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
              • yes I personally want the Moran back far more than I want the Gallen-Kallela (sorry, no offense). As for the link b/w the painting and the tone poem, see Finnish Music Quarterly 2003, but it's a snippet view. The text basically says [paraphrasing] "The theme of the Oceanides was not unfamiliar among Sibelius' circle of friends, in fact S's friend G-K painted Aallottaret in 1909" Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 05:54, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
• For your email to your source: "published" can also mean "publicly displayed", so you should say "published or publicly displayed". Sorry so late with this info   Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 06:37, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Thanks Lingzhi. I will send a follow up on Friday. Hopefully we can get this issue resolved! :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 06:55, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
    • @Lingzhi: I was going to add that I think we make a great team! If you ever want to help out on my other articles in the works, please feel more than free to do so. E.g., Madetoja here or a past but unfinished project En saga here. Sgvrfjs (talk) 18:44, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
      • I have a big project (radically different from Sibelius) started in [User:Lingzhi/sandbox|my sandbox]], so that will be somewhat of a priority, but I'm very happy to chip in and help now and than. Cheers!  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 06:07, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Teosto Article

Hi there Sgvrfjs! I wanted to let you know that I added the {{expand finnish|Teosto}} template to the article Teosto. Also, I wanted to point you at Category:Translators_fi-en in case you wanted to attempt to recruit one of these brave folks directly to expand the article into English from the Finnish article. Chrisw80 (talk) 06:48, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks! Can't say I'll really actively recruit, since TEOSTO is pretty small ball with respect to the Madetoja bio. But thanks for taking the time to add the template. Cheers! Sgvrfjs (talk) 06:56, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Painting rescue

Am making progress on rescuing those two paintings; User talk:Finnusertop was very helpful with Finnish translation to help with the Gallen-Kallela (which is misnamed, BTW, so I'm going to move it).  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 17:00, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

You two are welcome! I'm happy to help with Finnish translations as well as sources regarding any articles you might be working on. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:31, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Outstanding @Lingzhi:! And thank you so much for your help @Finnusertop:! Lingzhi is correct that I write a lot about Sibelius and his works, but now my current major project is actually a biograph expansion of Leevi Madetoja. I have been doing pretty well with English language sources (even if they are hard to hunt down), but on some of the more minor details, it will be nice to have someone who can help me translate the Finnish language sources. I'm sure you'll be hearing from me, as I will begin keeping a running list. Do you translate whole pages or just snippets? Sgvrfjs (talk) 18:34, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

I can translate longer texts as well, or verify if they contain information you need. I can even help with obtaining Finnish language sources, since I obviously have better access to them in eg. libraries. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:07, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks to User:Finnusertop, you can now use File:Aallottaria Gallen 1909.jpg (note slight name change). Put it wherever you want. I am still working on the Moran.   Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 09:49, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Any word on the Stoeckel images? Without help from your source, they probably must be removed, and they are clearly more important than any and all paintings.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 20:28, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

@Lingzhi: Sorry, my friend, but nothing from her yet. I wrote a nice and detailed message talking about their importance. I suggest that I could follow up in a week. I couldn't agree with you more! My hopes are low, though: I recall when I talked to her over the telephone last summer that I asked about who took the photos, and I think she said that they have no idea. It is probable, however, that the images are part of the Stoeckel estate, which upon their death became the property of Yale University. And it was she, an employee of Yale, that gave us (and I should mention, other websites and reporters too) permission to use the photos with attribution to the Yale School of Music Norfolk Music Festival. But I don't know the law. Thoughts? Sgvrfjs (talk) 00:11, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

I suggest that we remove those photos now. [NOTE: there's one of the EXTERIOR of The Barn that is OK. I was able to verify the licensing.]... OK, I just now removed several. I will find time to double-check the ones I didn't remove.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 01:55, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

@Lingzhi: Many thanks! I'll pop over to The Oceanides tomorrow and add the Gallen painting and look at the other images. Too bad on the images you had to (justifiably) delete, but perhaps we'll be able to reclaim them eventually. I am currently on the hunt for an image of Madetoja gravestone but can't find any on Wikicommons or under Google for free usage. I have written to this blogger [2]...maybe he'll allow Wikipedia to use the photo (under that own work tag you sometimes see?). Would this be possible (i.e., survive any future FAC review)? Thanks! Sgvrfjs (talk) 06:27, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

• The blogger would have to publish it somewhere (such as Flickr, perhaps) under a license compatible with Wikipedia. Gotta run now; more later.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 09:04, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
  • That might not cut it, Lingzhi. Finland has no Freedom of Panorama (FoP) for monuments. The gravestone was made in 1955 by Kalervo Kallio (d. 1969) so it's probably still copyrighted, and consequentially – given the lack of FoP – so are any photographs of it. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:10, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
    • Oh, that's unfortunate. :-( [I was just gonna go to your user talk, Finnusertop, to ask you if there was some Finnish equivalent of WP:RP where Sgvrfjs could request photos.. but you beat me to it with this message].  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 16:05, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
      • This just seems strange to me; how can one ever use a photo of a grave of sculpture then? How can articles use images of Sibelius's grave or Mannerheim's? Sgvrfjs (talk) 23:05, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
        • Sgvrfjs, I would assume that both Sibelius and Mannerheim's graves are below the threshold of originality. They are just that, gravestones, instead of elaborate memorials. Finnish law doesn't seem very lenient when there is an actual sculpture in question. Commons records 224 discussions where a photo was deleted and only eight where it was kept (mostly on the grounds that the picture consists mostly of the surroundings of the object). – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:50, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

@Lingzhi: I'll answer anyway, in case it's of further use. I find Template:Photo requested quite useful. Set it to |in=Finland and the article appears in Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Finland. A detailed request on the talk page is of course useful. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:55, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Help on Madetoja-related Finnish language translations

@Finnusertop: Hey! I am having trouble finding solid information on the marriage between Madetoja and L. Onerva in English-language sources. No book on L. Onerva, to my knowledge, exists in English. Her Finnish Wikipedia page is pretty detailed, but the Google translate is kind of choppy. I was hopeful you could translate for me the relevant passages. Even better, I think it also contains links to the Finnish language book. I'm not sure how much you're willing to invest, but if you have access to it/them and can find information about 1) their courtship; 2) their marriage; 3) why their marriage was childless; 4) where they made their home; 5) their relation with alcoholism; 6) their relation with Eino Leino; and 7) their deaths, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!! Sgvrfjs (talk) 08:04, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Sgvrfjs. I've translated the relevant section of the article on Finnish Wikipedia here: Draft:L. Onerva (and might translate the rest of it; it's pretty detailed like you said). Reading it should give you rough idea. Unfortunately, your question about where thy made their home (before Onerva being hospitalized) isn't answered. I have access to both books; Mäkelä's is in my local library so I can get it anytime. Nieminen's is in the city library, but I can get it when I happen to be thereabout. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:10, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

@Finnusertop: You're absolutely awesome!! Thanks so much, and for the quick turn around. I'll read through your draft tonight after work and see what content I get. If I have any unanswered questions, then I might ask for you to check for me in either of books you have access to; thanks for your willingness. Does you're library also have the Madetoja biography by Salmenhaara? Sgvrfjs (talk) 21:07, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, my local library has Salmenhaara, Erkki (1987) Leevi Madetoja (Helsinki: Tammi). – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:24, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

@Finnusertop: Great! Would you mind grabbing it, too, of course at your convenience. It's the definitive biography, and I will eventually like to use it to fill in some gaps in the English language sources and to double check a few dates. Many thanks! Sgvrfjs (talk) 21:27, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

I've got those (Salmenhaara 1987 and Mäkelä 2003) now. I started reading on when and where Madetoja and Onerva moved together, but it seems rather complex and happened gradually rather than at a specific time and place. I'll give you the specifics after I've figured it out. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:39, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

@Finnusertop: So many thanks to you for doing this. I'm a bit tied up at work lately, but soon I'll be returning to the Madetoja article and seeing to plunder your mind! Sgvrfjs (talk) 07:44, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

knock knock2

• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Oceanides/archive1  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 12:42, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Poul Knudsen

@Ipigott: Hey! Hope you've been well and have had a productive start to 2016. I have a quick question about Danish music and I recall you are pretty informed on this topic. What's the deal with the librettist Poul Knudsen, who wrote Sibelius's Scaramouche and Madetoja's Okon Fuoko? I was hoping to link up to his page in the Madetoja biography I am at work on, but can't seem to find one under any language. Also ran a Google search and...well, nothing that I can find anywhere! Why has this man been so completely forgotten? Any information would help. Sgvrfjs (talk) 01:38, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

• Sometimes a lifetime of hopes and aspirations earns only a redlink, or less. This links to this, if you want to start a stub.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 02:11, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Poul Knudsen is mentioned on about a dozen pages in Salmenhaara's book. I'll provide details upon request. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:55, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
    • Wow...it really does take a village to raise an article. Thanks to you both; and Finnusertop, any translation you have of the Salmenhaara is much appreciated. Feel free to post details on the talk page of the madetoja article in my sandbox. Also, the English sources have so little on Madetoja's death. I was hopeful you might be able to find out about what he died of, where, and I have also heard rumblings about alcoholism for both he and Onerva. Also, what of these purported plans for a violin concerto and a third opera, both of which never came to fruition. Thanks! Sgvrfjs (talk) 07:07, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
• You seem to have received the help you needed. I didn't realise my talk page was such a useful information tool. As for Madetoja, you are doing an excellent job on his biography. I haven't been able to find out much about the circumstances of his death online but I see there are a number of books in Finnish and Swedish which can probably provide details.--Ipigott (talk) 10:27, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

A draft now available at Draft:Poul Knudsen. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 11:49, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Further translations from Salmenhaara 1987 requested

@Finnusertop: Hey, I was hopeful that the next sections you could translate for me from the Salmenhaara Finnish-language biography are, in order:

1. Madetoja's later years, especially the cause and location of death; any state or public memorial ceremonies; his struggle with alcoholism; final unfinished planned projects, such as a violin concerto and an opera.
2. Is there any information on Madetoja's reaction to the deaths of his brother (Yjro), Toivo Kuula, and his mother (Anna)?
3. Madetoja's early years, primarily his childhood (esp. details relating to his early training in music and composing; and, the death of his father and infant oldest brother; student years...what does Salmenhaara say exactly about his training with d'Indy and Fuchs?).
4. Content relating to The Ostrobothnians
5. Content relating to Juha
6. Content relating to the three symphonies (esp. information about the composition process, the premieres, and critical reactions).
7. Is there any information on his relationship with Onerva (I know you translated the Finnish Wikipedia page on Onerva, but I was wondering what Salmenhaara had to say).
8. Is there any source information on two quotes that I reproduce in the article, citing English language sources, but for which I cannot find the original source information (in other words, I am in search of the publication in which Fantapié and Parland made their original statements):
   1. Some years later, the French music writer, Henri-Claude Fantapié, described the cheerful, pastorale Third Symphony as a "sinfonia Gallica" in spirit and explained the premiere as thus: "The listeners expected the opera [The Ostrobothnians] to be followed by a nationalistic anthem and were disappointed to hear something that seemed to them to be hermetic and that, to crown it all, was lacking in pomposity and solemnity … the properties the majority of Finnish music-lovers always expect in a new work."
   2. While in general Finnish composers have, as a group, labored in (and struggled to be free of) the titanic shadow of Sibelius, with respect to Madetoja, something else might also be at play: Madetoja's eschewal of Romantic excess in favor of restraint, perhaps, has made him a tougher sell to audiences. As the music critic, Ralf Parland, wrote in 1945: "Because Madetoja never makes any concessions to the listener, his music has not gained the position it deserves in the public's awareness. People are now beginning to open their ears to it. But that he deserves far greater attention, and that his music is both rare and precious and not simply a poor edition of the music of Sibelius—that is something they have not yet learnt"

Sooooooooo many thanks, once again; please take your time, or if you're tired of this project or have other irons in the fire, you are of course free to walk away at any time! :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 23:52, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

I will rather not translate entire sections from the book. I think the best way to do this if you ask questions - and the more specific, the better.

1. Madetoja died around 11am on 6 October 1947 in the Konkordia Methodist hospital in Helsinki. According to Salmenhaara, there are no records of what his final illness was. Critics praised him in obituaries and Onerva published a poem in his memory. The funeral was on 11 October in the Helsinki Old Church. The president did send a wreath to the funeral, as did the Ministry of education, the city of Oulu and many other institutions. I'd say the funeral was both private and public, but not a state funeral per se. The memorial on his grave was unveiled in 1955 and a statue was put up in Oulu in 1962 (by Aarre Alltonen). Finnish Wikipedia has some more on commemorations: there is a prize named after him - fi:Madetoja-palkinto, as well as a couple of streets, a high school and a concert hall. The question about alcoholism is quite broad, I'd rather return to it once I've read up on it. Among unfinished works a composition for the poem "Ikävyys" (Tristesse) by Aleksis Kivi and a Requiem is mentioned.
2. Leevi was naturally saddened over Yrjö's death. The book has a gloomy letter sent by Leevi to Anna where he laments Yrjö's death. But more importantly, the letter makes it clear that the Civil War was a perilous time and they could all be dead at any moment. He addresses Anna: "I don't know if you are alive at the time of writing". Leevi dedicated his Kuoleman puutarha (The Garden of Death) to Yrjö, and got it published by Hansen. Kuula's death also saddened Madetoja, who wrote a number obituaries of him. Madetoja also finished some unfinished works of Kuula (a Stabat mater, Karavaanikuoro (Choir of Caravan), "Meren virsi" (Hymn of the Sea) for a male choir and "Virta venhettä vie" (The Stream Carries the Boat) for a mixed choir, but wished them to remain exclusively attributed to Kuula. Madetoja intended to author Kuula's biography with Toivo Tarvas, but they never did. Of all these deaths, Anna's (26 March 1934) hit him the hardest. He was so devastated that he got physically ill and had to take a leave of two weeks. He could not even attend the funeral. With a part of his inheritance, Madetoja covered the printing costs of the score of the 2nd Symphony, which he dedicated to Anna.

I'll answer the rest later. Have fun! – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 12:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

References

Thanks a bunch. Such useful information!! Already beginning to incorporate it. Hey, I found this here: "L. Onerva’s second marriage, to a famed composer Leevi Madetoja, turned out unhappy and turbulent. Both partners ultimately became alcoholics; Madetoja signed into a rehabilitation center but L. Onerva, as a woman, was committed against her will to a mental institution and kept there for five years. Although apparently cured, she was not released by her doctors until her husband’s death in 1947, according to her doctors so that she would not disturb his work as a composer."

And also this here: "In the late 1920s Onerva's health started to waver. She had already abandoned plans to finish her dissertation on the French Rococo art. Partly due to her excessive use of alcohol and psychic problems, she spent long times in hospitals, but still writing and also drawing. Her husband fell in love with his young student, Taru Pellinen; in 1927 he even proposed to her in a letter. Madetoja was a celebrated composer, and Onerva's own work as a poet was shadowed by his fame. Pursi, a collection of poems which came out in 1945, was an expression of her loneliness a cry for help. Onerva felt that her husband had deserted her, like her father did to her mother. Moreover, literary circles ignored her. Onerva was not mentioned in Unto Kupiainen's history of Finland's literature, Suomen kirjallisuuden vaiheet (1958). In 1947, after Onerva's husband had died of alcohol, she was released permanently from Nikkilä Psychiatric Hospital, where she was sent in 1942 against her will. There is indirect evidence, that she was in the hospital far longer than it was necessary on medical grounds. What is beyond doubt is that she was betrayed by her own doctor. "I am a fully normal person," she wrote to Madetoja, but doctor Jalmari Lydecken, his friend, wanted to let the composer work in peace, and turned down her appeals. During this period Onerva wrote manically in the small study provided her by the hospital."

Sensational, in both meanings of the word! But neither is what I consider to be adequate sourcing; I think we can do better. What say the two books in your possession? Is there any truth to the story that Onerva remained locked up for Madetoja's composing?! :) :) :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 07:31, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Sgvrfjs. I'm going to be extremely busy in life so I won't be able to make great contributions to this project. If you have specific questions about the sources, I will answer them, but I won't be able to make much reading, translating, or writing. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:24, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Template for Tone poems

Maybe you could include a template similar to {{Handel operas}} in your artciles witha a collapsable list of the 13 tone poems. It is just a suggestion. Cheers! I am vulturing around The Oceanides so when it gets FA status I can translate it. Triplecaña (talk) 09:55, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of The Wood Nymph

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article The Wood Nymph you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Concertmusic -- Concertmusic (talk) 20:21, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of The Wood Nymph

The article The Wood Nymph you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold . The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:The Wood Nymph for things which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Concertmusic -- Concertmusic (talk) 16:21, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

I would hate to do this, but unless there is an indication of movement on the review of this article in the next day, I will need to fail this review. Thank you! --Concertmusic (talk) 22:32, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

@Concertmusic: I really appreciate you posting on my personal talk page about the GA on the Wood Nymph. I apologize for the hiatus I have taken from Wikipedia, but I am in the part of the semester where I am very busy at school. As such, I was planning on returning to the GA review (and making the necessary changes) around early May, once things cool down. I understand we are on a deadline for the GA review, but I did submit it in November back when I had more time. Maybe we can extend the period based on this reasoning? By the way, I really appreciate the review as well. Let me know if we can reach an agreement! Sgvrfjs (talk) 22:40, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

@Sgvrfjs: I have no issue with that. Having said that, I do believe that the Hold queue is reviewed every so often, as is the queue that times how long an article has been under review. If you are okay with it, I'll try to play the system by putting the review back to Under Review, and then switch it to On Hold, and go back and forth to keep it alive until you have time to address the review notes. How does that sound? Thank you! --Concertmusic (talk) 23:12, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

@Concertmusic: I think that sounds perfect. Look at you, working the system! :) Thanks. Sgvrfjs (talk) 00:48, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Concertmusic, the reviewer has a significant amount of discretion as to how long to keep a review open, but people will start to wonder about a review that has shown no progress in a month, much less the two it will become. I'd recommend a post from Sgvrfjs on the Talk:The Wood Nymph/GA1 page, pointing out that time has been in extremely short supply due to an ever busier last several weeks of the semester, and promising to make progress again on the review issues starting in early May (better to be a bit more specific on the timing than that, actually, so you aren't expected to start earlier than you planned), when the semester winds down. If you then agree to the delay, there's nothing more to be said. Then you can put the review back on hold, where it belongs. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:16, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

BlueMoonset Thank you BlueMoonset - that is valuable advice. I will switch the article back to On Hold, and will make a short note on that page myself, in addition to your suggestion for Sgvrfjs. Thank you! --Concertmusic (talk) 12:06, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

FA

Precious again, your first FA The Oceanides!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:45, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

• Belated congrats on the FA! I knew it was coming.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 18:03, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Await incoming translation to Spanish! Good job! Triplecaña (talk) 10:43, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
    • Thanks, Triplecaña! Spread the word! Sgvrfjs (talk) 20:00, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
      • Also just realized that I never thanked Gerda Arendt and Lingzhi for their kind congrats! I appreciated the help of you both! Hope your current projects go well. Sgvrfjs (talk) 20:02, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
        • When would you like the FA to appear as TFA? - I have an article on tone poems, improvements welcome, - I sadly have no time, - planning another FA ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:04, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of The Wood Nymph

The article The Wood Nymph you nominated as a good article has failed ; see Talk:The Wood Nymph for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Concertmusic -- Concertmusic (talk) 22:41, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Jean Sibelius

In your opinion what is needed for JS article to be FA? Maybe developing the sections Nature or francmasonery or merge them into others. In the Spanish version which I've recently translated I've added info about Sibelius euro coins and collector coins. Maybe we should include more about 150th anniversary but without falling into recentism. Reply anywhere you want. Triplecaña (talk) 11:45, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

@Triplecaña: Hey! Nice to hear from you and thanks for your work on the Sibelius articles, both at English Wikipedia and Spanish Wikipedia. I don't often have the chance to get into a substantive conversation with a fellow editor (I kind of do my own thing), so I'll take this as an opportunity to swerve slightly into a few related topics I have been thinking about. But first, to your specific question about my thoughts on the Sibelius main article. I have a confession: I've never read the whole thing. Not for a lack of interest or passion: Sibelius is without question my favorite composer and I love his life story about as much as I love his music. But time is a finite commodity, and I already shouldn't edit here as often as I do.

And with that in mind, pushing a solid GA article up to FA just doesn't motivate me, especially when it pertains to a major composer about whom it is easy to find information in libraries and all over the internet. Would I like the Sibelius article to be FA? Of course. Am I willing to do it? Not at present. I am far more motivated by the injustice (how hyperbolic of me) of seeing lower-top tier and middle tier composers with stub and start class designations. Often it is very difficult to find good information on these composers and so this is where I think Wikipedia could come in and help curious consumers of classical music.

Composers like Leevi Madetoja, Erkki Melartin, Kurt Atterberg, Wilhelm Stenhammar, Hugo Alfvén, Johan Svendsen...these are our lost Nordic treasures, and they deserve better, more comprehensive encyclopedic entries for people who can't afford to buy the CDs (to obtain liner notes) or read Finnish or Swedish or Norwegian text. As such, I have set aside my earlier project of working on the Sibelius tone poems, such as The Oceanides or The Wood Nymph or even my draft of En saga, to work on a complete overhaul and massive expansion of the Leevi Madetoja content.

Sometimes I can't help but think to myself: how great would it be if every person on the Wikiproject Composers pledged to bring TWO lower-top or middle tier composers each up to GA/FA status with in three years, or THREE within five years (of course within their area of specialty). By 2020 to 2022, we'd have what...60 to 120 top-notch articles for our readers to consume?! I'd knock out Madetoja, Atterberg, and Melartin...someone like you, from Spain, could do de Falla, Granados, and Albeniz...hey, we can dream, can't we?

Anyway, thanks for listening to my non-answer to your question (sorry!). I do have a better lede I wrote last year for the Sibelius page, so feel free to look there if you like. I gave up on it because my lede was too different from and made reference to things that just weren't in the main body, and I (like I said above) had no interest in joining the team because I'm not a great collaborator. Also, feel free to pop by the Madetoja page if you like; I always can use suggestions. Happy editing (and listening)! :) Sgvrfjs (talk) 05:40, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks for the long reply. I can see you are a lone wolf. I've been following your contributions to Madetoja and it's really impressive. Bringing an article to FA is months works, and its harder if you have a couple of hours per week. I totally understand your point: I want to focus on Joaquín Turina but its hard to find bibliography. I like doing translations sucking from others research (I'll always verify the information if possible as I did with Gabriel Fauré). But the pleasure to create from scratch an article is way better es:Intempo. I heard about Madetoja because on Radio Clásica in Spain "Los raros" and The symphonic universe of Madetoja. Would you please read Sibelius? Your intro is great and I will probably use it. One question: we all now that Sibelius writes nationalistic music, but why is not mentioned that he forms parts of the Musical nationalism movement. I promised to translate The Oceanides, and I will start soon. Triplecaña (talk) 10:33, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Symphonies

"You don't own the page; please reach out to me before undoing my work." Of course I don't own the page. Do you think that all of the composers listed should (ideally) include their main instruments and other areas of work? It could be a big job, copying all that information from their biographical articles into the list. Further, does the list require annotations for each symphony? The Haydn list alone could take some while to fill out. Or do you have some sort of filtering criteria in mind? Other comparable lists (such as the List of compositions for violin and orchestra) do not include such details. Your thoughts would be appreciated.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:02, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

@Jerome Kohl: Hi, Jerome. Look, I too don't want to edit war, and I think I can be forgiven for interpreting the reversal of my edits as smacking of some kind of ownership. I know you are very active on the page and have done great work on it, but that means also that you know: 1) I have contributed to the page many times before; 2) many of my contributions (e.g., Sibelius, Nielsen, Scriabin, Tchaikovsky) have added small blurbs; and, 3) these have not been reversed before. So, if the issue is that you don't see the value in blurbs, then all of these (not just the Madetoja) should be eliminated; if the issue is that you don't think Madetoja is perhaps as notable as the others (which I would agree with) but that blurbs for the major symphonists are useful, then we'd need to work together, as you note, to find some kind of cut-off point. I tend to think that small blurbs are helpful, because as a reader I often don't have time to search long biographical pages or hunt around composition pages for information, especially since for many composers, the biography pages are not of great quality. Now, I'm happy to cut off at the top symphonists, but everyone will have a different list of who is and who is not Top 20 or Top 30.

But, my final point is this: I'm making good-faith edits and have a record on Wikipedia of editing on Nordic composers; true, I haven't served the community as much and as importantly as have you (sincere point), but I'm not a hack. And my honest opinion is that the page as it stands tries to adhere to, but is not always successful at, following a uniform style. I didn't think up the blurbs on my own; I saw some entry have it on the page, and so I wrote one for Sibelius...then Tchaikovsky...etc. I didn't think up on my own to mention that Madetoja's fourth symphony is lost; I saw that someone else had already mentioned similar things on Stenhammar and numerous other composers. And as for other instruments, I was deleting the violinist reference from Sinding (or was it Halvorsen?), because that didn't adhere to the style of NAME (dates) nationality composer. Let's start a cheerful dialogue; else I'll just retreat and leave the page to you (and without hard feelings). Happy editing. Sgvrfjs (talk) 00:10, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Edit: I missed one of your points. Of course I don't think every symphony needs annotation; true, the decision of which ones to mention is subjective, but scholars do this all the time and the Haydn example you cite, if my memory serves me correctly, already does something like this on a smaller scale. I guess I need to know: is the list only supposed to say the composer's number of symphonies (and mention by name specific works that might be regarded as symphonies (e.g. Kullervo for Sibelius or The Little Mermaid for Zemlinsky) and/or symphonies that have been lost/destroyed/disowned/not finished (e.g., Mahler 10, Stenhammar 1, Madetoja 4), or is it also supposed to opine slightly on the composer, such as Haydn having "clarity and wit"? Sgvrfjs (talk) 00:18, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Given that you had removed the violinist reference from one entry, am I right in assuming it was not actually your intention, when you reversed my edit, to restore the similar material which I had removed from three other entries? I see nothing wrong with mentioning lost, unfinished, or withdrawn symphonies, or symphonies in fact that are not so named (or, on the other hand, pieces called "symphony" that do not actually qualify). The issue is rather what the limit should be for such annotations. It seems to me it would be well to establish at least some rough guidelines, preferably on the Talk page for the list, before opening the list to all manner of accretions since, as you suggest, opinions are bound to differ and Wikipedia editors are not all the scholars to which you refer.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:41, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Jerome Kohl: You are correct that I had not realized you had also removed references to the instruments of other composers; my mistake, I thought it a mere blanking of the Madetoja, Stenhammar, and Alfven edits I'd made. Well, past is past, and we have a dialogue now. Guidelines seem good; might I get the ball rolling with:

For more minor composers:

Leevi Madetoja (1887–1947), Finnish composer of 3 symphonies written between 1916 and 1926, as well as a lost fourth symphony. [MENTIONS LOST WORK]

OR

Alexander von Zemlinsky (1871–1942), Austrian composer of 2 numbered symphonies written between 1892 and 1897, as well as a partially-lost symphony in E minor (1891); further, Zemlinsky composed a Lyrische Symphonie for soprano, baritone, and orchestra (1923) and a Sinfonietta (1934), as well as a symphony in all but name, the tone poem Die Seejungfrau (1902). [MENTIONS UNNUMBERED SYMPHONY, as well as OTHER SYMPHONIC WORKS]

And for major contributors to the symphony (still undefined), something like the entries I wrote for Tchaikovsky and Sibelius, that helps to point readers to where to start in the symphonic canon.

I'm not sure that it is necessary to mention years of composition, which could lead to attempts to do the same thing for (say) Haydn. An exception might be lost, withdrawn, and similar works. As for pointing readers to the major works in the form (and explaining what constitutes a "major" symphony), isn't that what the Symphony article is supposed to be for?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:20, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Jerome Kohl: I think we're on (or close to) the same page, now. Thanks for discussing. I've made some edits to Sibelius, Tchaikovsky, Nielsen, Madetoja, Stenhammar, Svendsen, Bizet, and Strauss. Please feel free to check out! Sgvrfjs (talk) 18:17, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Request

Could you please create Maan Virsi (Hymn of the Earth) op.95. I've seen it also named Hym to the Earth. It is really uplifting and cheerful. I have created Vaino's Song in Spanish es:La canción de Väinö. Do you want me to translate it? Triplecaña (talk) 11:12, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

The Oceanides scheduled for TFA

This is to let you know that the The Oceanides article has been scheduled as today's featured article for 4 June 2017. Please check the article needs no amendments. If you're interested in editing the main page text, you're welcome to do so at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/June 4, 2017. Thanks! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:57, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Help with Template:Classical works row

@Gerda Arendt: Hi, Gerda. I am trying to convert the Sibelius list of compositions into the type of sortable table that people seem to prefer, and I wanted to use your template from Nielsen, a number of features of which I like. I would, however, wonder if you could help me make some changes, since I don't know how. I want the following parameters: 1) Title; 2) Op. ; 3) JS; 4) K; 5) year; 6) genre; 7) type; and, 8) notes. So, for example, I'd like it to look like this:

Title	Year	Op.	JS.	K.	Genre	Type	Notes
Symphony No. 5 in E-flat major	1914–15 r. 1916 r. 1918–19	82	—	58–60	Orchestral	Symphony	First version (which is extant) and second version (which is lost) are in four movements, while the final version is in three movements
The Oceanides (Aallottaret)	1913–14 r. 1914	73	—	57	Orchestral	Tone poem	First version is a three-movement suite (No. 1 lost), while the second and third versions are tone poems

I don't really feel the need for separate columns for translation and key, and I don't think I'll utilize score. I would, however, like the description parameter to load under type rather than genre. So, for example, for Scaramouche, Orchestral for genre and Ballet-pantomime for type and, underneath the words ballet-pantomime, the phrase in 3 acts for description. The reason I would like to disaggregate genre and type is that, with the Nielsen list, the only thing I don't like is that I cannot sort ALL orchestral music together. Hence the need, I think, to convert genre into orchestral (or choral, or chamber, etc.) and the type into the specific composition form (like symphony, opera, string quartet, etc.) As a rough example, see the Dvorak page, in which genre is used as a meta sort and scoring is used as a more narrow sort.

Thanks for your help! I'd love it if we can work together on this; it'll probably be my hobby project in Dec. I've started the project at User:Sgvrfjs/Sibelius_loc. Sgvrfjs (talk) 05:45, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps the score parameter can be hijacked to be for notes/comments, since Sibelius doesn't have a comparable CNW database. I also wanted to elaborate why I don't like a translation column: sometimes the native language term is what is used over the translation. And if each gets it's own equal column, the reader is left not knowing whether the swedish/finnish or the english title is 'what's used'. This is why I prefer one column for the title, with the sorting by the commonly used title and the other options beneath it in the same column as a break. For example, En saga is Swedish and The Oceanides is English. Sgvrfjs (talk) 07:02, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughts. For actual template changes, better ask Andy. I wonder about year before Catalogue, tried to keep the order as in the normal lead: name, key, cat(s), year. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:10, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Which template? I suggest raising your proposals on its talk page. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:17, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

{{Classical works row}}, as the title says, used for Max Reger works, for example, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:21, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Kullervo publication history

Salutations to a fellow Sibelian! Thank you for your message. Since this is Thursday, Sibelius is my favourite composer; on other days of the week, Delius, Vaughan Williams or Ravel might come top. but Sibelius is the one I have the deepest interest in.

Alas, I don't have much information on Kullervo's publication history. The score I worked from in transcribing it for performance was borrowed, and my whole library is in storage. I'll check whether I have anything useful backed up in the cloud, and I'll try & get in touch with my friend who loaned me the score, so we can pin down the date of that one.

If you would like a copy of the full score that I edited, I can let you have it as a PDF (also parts & a couple of reductions), or as a Sibelius® score file if you have that software. I can also export a few other score formats. Let me know.

I had to edit the score extensively as there were errors in the original, as well as it being unreadable--copyist's manuscript & miniature score. I hadn't thought of uploading my score to IMSLP; until fairly recently, I thought Sibelius was still copyright, and he may be so in the US, but not here in Canada where I reside.

I don't think I'm up to doing a musical analysis of Kullervo, though I'm honoured to be asked. I am so happy thet you're updating the articles on Sibelius' music! I look forward to reading your article on the Oceanides, one of favourite pieces; to me it captures the essence of the sea better than Debussy or RVW or anyone.

Ciao, and let me know if you want my working scores. Feel free to stay in touch! --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 01:34, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Kullervo's 130th

@Gerda Arendt: @Ipigott:

→ (?): Kullervo, Op. 7 (sandbox).

Greetings! My ambition is for FA by the 130th anniversary of its premiere (28 April 2022). What a milestone it will be! Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 18:22, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Silence of Järvenpää: That should certainly be possible. Let's see what we can do.--Ipigott (talk) 19:38, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

today

See my talk today, - it's rare that a person is pictured when a dream comes true, and that the picture is shown on the Main page on a meaningful day. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:51, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Six years!

As it happens, just yesterday I thought of you listening to the Violin Concerto in the first concert of 2021, and the president gave a reception ;) - I'll add pics, - video of the speech (in German) is already on my talk. Great music! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:10, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Awe! Thanks, @Gerda Arendt:! Doing well... I moved what I'd been working on to Discography of Sibelius symphony cycles. Quite a large expansion, but it was a lot of fun! Can you believe one editor told me that they worry it might not be appropriate content for Wikipedia—i.e., "fandom"? Certainly got me thinking and worrying! I think the bigger concern is that, in my zeal, it became less of a list and more of an article; not sure how those over at FLC (once nominated) will look upon this! Maybe I'll just avoid star-hunting altogether. Do feel free, of course, to poke around! Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 13:48, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Impressive. Without having looked at details: that's a great DYK article now! And if they don't want it as FL, it could become a GA easily. Will you nominate for DYK? - The Violin Concerto article is not yet what it could be, - do you agree? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:35, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Gerda Arendt:! I have no idea how to go about the DYK circuit, but if you'd like, please do feel free to nominate it and shepherd it through! Yes, the Violin Concerto article is an embarrassment. But I tend to stay away from Sibelius articles that have so many editors watching... the Concerto, the symphonies, his bio. I'm just afraid of edit wars and trolls; I easily get discouraged as an editor, as you well know. When it stops being 'fun,' I bolt. I'm not willing to do the Violin Concerto by myself. But if it's something you'd like to do together, then I could offer to write the following sections: History (Compositions; Performances) and Discography. I just have no interest in doing the musical analysis section. Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 21:08, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Understand, reluctance for both DYK and the concerto. I'll do the DYK, not now though, I'm late with the nom for an article that is still too short and due today. I have too many neglected projects of my own to tackle the other. Here's the Concerto, today's version. ----Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:19, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Also, why do we need Category:Concertos by Jean Sibelius if he only wrote one? Haha... what a laughable container! Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 21:13, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Laughing is good for your health ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:19, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: I went ahead on nominated Discography of Sibelius symphony cycles over at FLC. I do hope you'll have a moment to give it a read through. I do value your feedback. Warmly, Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 18:28, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, I was too busy. You mentioned the photo of Sibelius that is on the mark, and a signature, but do we have those? Can't find them on the commons. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:22, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: The photo is the one I have on my user page, with the caption "beloved composer." :) I like this one a lot... it's famous (thanks to the old Finnish mark banknote) and it's of higher resolution, too. As for the signature, Sibelius's very interestingly changed over the course of his life, primarily as a result of the hand tremor he suffered in old age. (I very, very proudly own both a signed photo from the 1950s and a signed cutting from the 1930s.) I think the better signature is the one from his youth. I can find one and then reach out to @Jonadrews:, who was an enormous help with getting me the signature for Uuno Klami! I'm sure there's one in the public domain that Jon can utilize, no? If not, can we use a scan of the one I own? Very warmly Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 23:15, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

December songs

For all image questions, ask GRuban. For the signature, yes, I believe the scan of yours would be acceptable, perhaps better complete than only the signature. For the image: bring it to the article where the bill is mentioned. I failed to recognise it because I looked for just a head. I like it a lot, but guess that for the infobox, his hair is too wild ;) - I am proud of Henze having signed an opera program for me. And of Gianni Schicchi on the Main page, which I got there in loving memory of Brian Boulton, the inventor of the identibox. Did you know that he brought one to Chopin? ... which was reverted?? - Congrats to the featured list! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:05, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

today memories: an Italian opera, my second ever, as the TFA written by two dear people, and a park where I went with dear people, as pictured DYK --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:22, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

on Beethoven's birthday --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:53, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Kim Dae-jin

I feel ashamed for taking so much time with this, but I was finally in Helsinki, so here are the runtimes. All recordings were done in 2015. From the CD liners:

@Finnusertop (talk · contribs) Thanks so much, my friend! Did you happen to get photos, because I still would need to know the months and days of recording (not just the year), so as to know where precisely to place it in the table! No worries if not. Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 18:18, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I just took notes. I do remember however that there was at least May, and then some later in the year, October through December, perhaps. What I have meticulous notes on is which symphony is on what CD and the runtimes of each individual movement. If you need the dates or any other info, I will be able to pay another visit to the library during Christmas holiday.

Sorry for procrastinating with this and the other tasks. I haven't forgotten about them; I'm simply lazy and distracted. In particular, I need to thank you for making me bite the bullet and get the subscription to Helsingin Sanomat. I've had so much fun reading the archives! And that's another resource if you need anything. By the way, you can link to Suwon Philharmonic Orchestra on the Korean Wikipedia if you like.

Oh, and congratulations on the FL. You are truly the greatest Sibelian I know, with considerable organizational talent! – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:45, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Conductor	Orchestra	Years	Symphony runtime							Recording venue	Label	Ref.
			1	2	3	4	5	6	7
Kim Dae-jin	Suwon Philharmonic Orchestra	2015	37:54	42:31	29:15	33:58	30:30	28:58	23:27	Suwon SK Atrium	Sony Classical	(S80210C)

Cheers – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:50, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Promotion of Discography of Sibelius symphony cycles

Congratulations, Silence of Järvenpää! The list you nominated, Discography of Sibelius symphony cycles, has been promoted to featured status, recognizing it as one of the best lists on Wikipedia. The nomination discussion has been archived.

This is a rare accomplishment and you should be proud. If you would like, you may nominate it to appear on the Main page as Today's featured list. Keep up the great work! Cheers, PresN (talk) via FACBot (talk) 00:26, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

@Silence of Järvenpää – Congrats! Great work! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 04:44, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

@Kavyansh.Singh @PresN @Aza24 – Thank you so much, my friends, for seeing the Discography of Sibelius symphony cycles over the FL line, rather than leaving it for dead! I do apologize for having disappeared from Wikipedia, but sometimes the business of the real world intervenes... I do hope I will be back soon, for more Sibelius content improvement. Happy editing and thanks again for your service to the community! Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 17:19, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

TFL notification

Hi, Silence of Järvenpää. I'm just posting to let you know that Discography of Sibelius symphony cycles – a list that you have been heavily involved with – has been chosen to appear on the Main Page as Today's featured list for February 21. The TFL blurb can be seen here. If you have any thoughts on the selection, please post them on my talk page or at TFL talk. Regards, Giants2008 (Talk) 22:44, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

February songs

frozen

Lovely to see that on the Main page! I remember our collaboration on his works with pleasure, - the ice-breaking one became of a special meaning, DYK? - I see that Song of the Earth (Sibelius) is still a red link, - would that be a good DYK for Earth Day? ... if yes, begin in a sandbox, because it's too early for 22 April? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:05, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Thanks! It really was a special day and highly motivating. I, too, remember the 2015 rush to give Sibelius the attention he deserved, but remember that that was mostly you and @Ipigott:—I did The Oceanides and that was about it! Yes, the Sibelius cantatas have been on my play list of late... hence the expansion I did of Oma maa. I do hope to get to those others, soon... but right now I'm focused on, and making good progress with, the Kullervo expansion: User:Silence of Järvenpää/Kullervo. I won't make FA by the 28 April deadline, but oh well... it's still a labor of love! Warmly, Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 00:42, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

thank you, understand - stand and sing Prayer for Ukraine --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:28, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I took the pic in 2009, and it was on the German MP yesterday, with the song from 1885, in English Prayer for Ukraine. - Translate to Finnish, perhaps? Italian and French are good models for a short article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:18, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Kullervo

Hello, again! I am pleased to report that you can confirm that Usko Viitanen and Raili Kostia as the soloists at the Bournemouth performance (and again at the Royal Festival Hall in London three days later) were the same soloists on the recording. This is from William Mann's review in The Times on 23 November 1970 (p. 11):

Last night's performance, with soloist, chorus and conductor all from Finland, had been preceded by one in Bournemouth on Thursday; the same participants are recording Kullervo for publication next spring. It is something more than a curiosity. Less typical of Sibelius than En Saga or the first two symphonies, it shows him as a gifted musical experimenter, with as strong a sense of design as of thematic character; and there is something to fascinate and appeal in each of the five movements. The introduction is a dramatically gripping sonata-structure whose two main themes, strong of feature, reappear in the moving and tense choral finale, Kullervo's Death. The quick themes of the third and fourth movements, especially that representing the hero, give a tantalizing glimpse of the buffo composer that Sibelius might have developed into. The choral writing (Helsinki University Choir) is stern and monolithic, often powerful, and there are eloquent solos for brother and sister (Usko Viitanen, a vibrant high baritone, and Raili Kostia who sounded a shade subdued).

Rather an extensive verbatim quote, sailing close to the wind, perhaps, given Wikipedia's scrupulous respect for copyright, but I think it's just OK, and I hope will be useful to you. Best wishes, and happy editing, Tim riley talk 21:15, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, @Tim riley:! Actually, I'd like to request a clarification: What did you mean when you said: "... given Wikipedia's scrupulous respect for copyright, but I think it's just OK"? Were you indicating that using (and quoting from) newspaper archives to supplement a Wikipedia article is not allowed under copyright? Because, I do this all the time, since books and journal articles on Sibelius neither always answer all of my questions nor contain the details I'm looking for! Thanks, Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 22:06, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

It is absolutely fine to quote a sentence or two from books and newspapers, but we shouldn't quote huge chunks of prose, and my Times quote was perhaps verging on huge, hence my reservation. Using selected bits of it will be 100% OK. Tim riley talk 22:46, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, @Tim riley:! So, something like this would pass muster?

The world premiere of Kullervo outside of Finland was on 19 November 1970 in Bournemouth, England, with Paavo Berglund conducting the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra and the YL Male Voice Choir; the baritone Usko Viitanen and mezzo-soprano Raili Kostia served as soloists. The next day, Berglund's crew played the symphony at the Royal Festival Hall in London; in his review of this performance for The Times, William Mann praised Kullervo as "dramatically gripping", with "choral writing [... that] is stern and monolithic, often powerful, and... eloquent solos for brother and sister"; he also described Sibelius as "a gifted musical experimenter, with as strong a sense of design as of thematic character".

Note: I deleted the citation for the purposes of the talk page. Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 23:28, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Davis, Karajan and Beecham

BB (left) and TR in a bar in King's Cross − and entirely sober − in 2014

My Wikipedian mentor, the late, exuberant, wise, and painfully missed Brian Boulton told me at one of our bibulous get-togethers that as a young man he was introduced to Colin Davis and was invited to the latter's house in Islington where, if you please, they discussed the ins and outs of the Eighth Symphony. I don't know what conclusion Brian, or more to the point Sir Colin, came to, but I was speechless with envy when BB told me of their discussion. The only other Sibelian thing I can think to pass on to you is that during a Sibelius symphony cycle at the Barbican 20 years or so ago, Davis, who usually stepped off the podium looking as fresh as a daisy, looked as though he was about to drop dead after conducting the Fourth Symphony. I later read that Karajan, too, was poleaxed by conducting the Fourth and couldn't do anything for days afterwards. Beecham seemed to cope, although Walter Legge observed at the time 'The few who left the hall at the end of that work must have been surprised to see that there is still active life on this planet'. Tim riley talk 22:28, 1 March 2022 (UTC) 800x600

@Tim riley: Hi, Tim! Thanks for relaying to me this wonderful story, as well as for sharing some of your memories of Brian with me. I never crossed paths with him, but have admired his work on Sibelius's Eighth for about a decade now. He seems to have deeply touched many members of the classical music WP community; what a special legacy. In fact, when I first saw the article about the Eighth back in 2014 or so, it inspired me to join Wikipedia and start writing about The Wood Nymph and The Oceanides. So, in some ways, his example helped to transform me from Sibelian to Sibelian Wikipedian. Very warmly, Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 20:07, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

And, PS: Sibelius's Fourth is secretly my favorite (but don't tell the other six)! :)

One other thing, if I may. Although I'm a long way off over at User:Silence of Järvenpää/Kullervo (though, after much editing, I finally have the lede to just how I want it!), I'd be honored if, when it's ready, you'd consider doing the GA review. Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 20:14, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Good grief! Your favourite is the Fourth? It frightens me. My favourite is the Third, which I had the joy of hearing Mark Elder conduct recently with the breathtakingly excellent student orchestra of the Royal Academy of Music. The beloved Brian Boulton would, I am perfectly certain, have been delighted to read what you say about the effect on you of his article on the Eighth. And it will be my privilege and pleasure to review your article for GAN if you let me know as soon as you nominate it and I can get to it before some other editor snaps it up, though be warned: as a reviewer I am even more severe on my friends than on my other victims other colleagues.

PS: Can you make head or tail of the Sixth? I can't. Tim riley talk 20:39, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

@Tim riley: Hi, Tim! Thanks for sharing this photo of two classical music-editing comrades! Oh, to have been a fly on the wall (with a gin and tonic)! The Fourth is indeed frightening, which is why I love it, especially Movements I and III. I also love the Seventh, too... that trombone solo! And how Sibelius inserts a waltz-like dance at the end, in my mind a late-career callback to Valse triste (well, depending on the conductor, sometimes it doesn't sound very waltzy). If I had to order the symphonies, I'd do: 4, 7, Kullervo, 3, 5, 6, 2, 1... the Third is a delight (so under-appreciated, as evidenced by the fact that it's the only one that Karajan didn't record), and when I drive around town, I often catch myself singing the opening of Movement I! The Sixth is a tough nut to crack (well, I initially thought the same thing about 4, 7, and Kullervo), but I think Berglund with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe or Vänskä and the Lahti Symphony Orchestra are good interpretations. Thanks for agreeing to take up the GAN; and do be tough... haha, I need to be pushed (as a writer, I have a tendency towards founder's syndrome, unfortunately... do know that I always feel badly about editing in my sandboxes rather than in the mainspace. But to cut out the organ is to kill the organism, or something like that.) Warmly, Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 23:20, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Happy anniversary!!!

@Aza24, Finnusertop, FormalDude, Gerda Arendt, Ipigott, and Tim riley: Hello, friends and mentors! Today is 28 April 2022—exactly 130 years ago to the day, in 1892, Jean Sibelius's marvelous Kullervo Symphony premiered to the public in the Ceremonial Hall at the University of Helsinki, the composer conducting. While I didn't make my deadline for FA, the work goes on, the cause endures. Hope this day finds you well, happy, and productive. Warmly, ~ Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 00:11, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Bravo Sibelius and bravo SoJ! Same to you—and excited to work on the comp list in June. Aza24 (talk) 00:44, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Aza24 I am ready to begin our project when you are! Would you like us to work in: (a) my sandbox, (b) your sandbox, (c) the draftspace, or (d) directly in the existing article? Looking forward, too, to learning a good bit from you. Warmly ~ Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 13:41, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

We could do it in your sandbox? (I have so many sandboxes, I'm afraid of creating more!). Out of the mainspace would give us much more room for experimentation and the draftspace can be a bit invasive from others. Good to hear from you! Aza24 (talk)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Seven years!

good plans! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 04:58, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

I heard Be Still, My Soul recently, and wonder if it should have an article beyond Finlandia? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:20, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Gerda Arendt! Thanks for checking in! I admit to not knowing the various songs to which Sibelius's famous melody has been set, primarily because I've never quite had a taste for church music. My understanding, however, is that the hymn tune from Finlandia is certainly famous enough to have its own article (which it does), but probably not each given iteration (e.g., Be Still, My Soul)... in fact, I like how the current article attends to these as subsections. If anything, maybe it would be best to pour one's labor into expanding the Finlandia Hymn article? Not a job for me, as the Finlandia Hymn isn't really about Sibelius... and right now, I'm sidetracked from my Kullervo expansion by doing a The Maiden in the Tower expansion, a tuneful, short opera that has caught my ear! (Aside: Why only TWO studio recordings?! [Neither of which is by a Finnish orchestra] Come on, Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra, Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra, Finnish National Opera Orchestra, and Lahti Symphony Orchestra! Get on it! Hannu Lintu just took over the National Opera, and so it would be a great project for him! And I cannot believe that Leif Segerstam, when recording the Complete Sibelius incidental music, didn't also do The Maiden in the Tower!) Warmly, ~ Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I learned a lot, thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:06, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I looked at the opera, and am impressed! There's potential for a GA and DYK, which would make it better known. I'll read when I have more time. There may be more details such as that I never saw an opera article mentioning the voice types of the singers in the lead. Check Falstaff and L'incoronazione di Poppea, for model opera articles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:20, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Finnish soprano Ida Flodin... yes, but who was she?!

Hello, assembled friends Aza24, Finnusertop, Gerda Arendt, and Ipigott! A great mystery awaits, should you wish to assist. No worries if this isn't your 'cup of tea' (pun intended... you'll get it after reading and clicking) :P

• Mission: To find a photo of the Finnish soprano Ida Flodin that is from the 1890s, as she created the titular role in 1896's The Maiden in the Tower. In the current photo we have of her on WP, she is too old.
• Evidence: We know that...

1. Ida married Ivar Aavatsmark, and became Ida Flodin-Aavatsmark.
2. Fanny, her sister, married Kristian Edmund Leopold Gustavson, and became Fanny Flodin-Gustavson.
3. finna.fi, where I get most of the free-use photos I upload onto Commons, has two images:

• It labels this photo as being of "Ida Flodin & Ivar Aavatsmark".
• It labels this photo as being of "Pianist Fanny Flodin-Gustavson with her sister, singer Ida Flodin Aavatsmark"

• Problem: Doesn't it seem like finna.fi has confused things?

1. The bride in the first photo is clearly the woman on the left in the second photo, right?
2. And the woman on the right in the second photo looks like a younger version of the image of an older Ida we have on WP, right?
3. And the groom in the first photo is clearly not the same man as the photo we have for Ivar Aavatsmark on WP, right?
4. This leads me to conclude that Ida is the woman on the right in the second photo and that finna.fi has mislabeled the first photo as "Ida Flodin & Ivar Aavatsmark"... the correct label should be "Fanny Flodin & Kristian Edmund Leopold Gustavson".

• Why it matters: Because I want to take the second image and crop out Fanny and upload it as a younger photo of just Ida. If I follow finna.fi, I would select the sister on the left as Ida and upload. If I follow the logic above, I would select the sister on the right as Ida and upload (but this would seem to be 'original research' and 'violate the source'?). So, what should I do? Many thanks, ~ Silence of Järvenpää 15:33, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I wanted to look around a bit before I responded, and did so twice to no avail. I actually did some reverse image google searches, which were impressively unhelpful. If it is any consolation, the bride in the 1st and the woman on the left in the 2nd don't look blatantly obvious to me as the same person, suggesting a less clear connection like the designated siblings one. However, I can't say either possibility is clearly convincing. Aza24 (talk) 19:39, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for visiting my Guest Room!

I hope you enjoyed your stay in my guest room.
Here is an ice-cold glass of lemonade as a thank you, complimentary.
Visiting my guest room also means you've gained a new talk page watcher! ––FormalDude talk 21:10, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

FormalDude ~ Oh no! I'm a limeade man! :P But thanks, nonetheless. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 19:09, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Matti Lehtinen

On 20 August 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Matti Lehtinen, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. PFHLai (talk) 19:07, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

August songs

Thank you for this, and the Maiden, and for what you told Aza24. - Look at the church where I heard VOCES8. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:50, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of The Maiden in the Tower

The article The Maiden in the Tower you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:The Maiden in the Tower for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already appeared on the main page as a "Did you know" item, or as a bold link under "In the News" or in the "On This Day" prose section, you can nominate it within the next seven days to appear in DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On This Day" column do not affect DYK eligibility. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Aza24 -- Aza24 (talk) 02:41, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

DYK for Matti Lehtinen

On 7 September 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Matti Lehtinen, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Matti Lehtinen, a baritone of the Finnish National Opera and professor of singing at the Sibelius Academy, was the voice of God at age 93? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Matti Lehtinen. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Matti Lehtinen), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 12:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

September songs

Thank you for what you did for him, and for the Maiden. Do you have DYK plans for her? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:37, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Gerda Arendt! Please... it was all your doing; I did very, very little! :) Glad you noticed The Maiden getting to GA! What fun it was to work with Aza24 on it and make improvements. I think my plan is likely for an FAN, but a bit later. Suddenly, I'm playing around with Scaramouche here. (I still can't believe I managed to learn the basics of LilyPond!) I thought, why stop at Sibelius's only opera? Perhaps on to his only ballet! Do please feel free to do any DYK on the Sibelius articles I expand. And thanks for the flowers... you take such lovely pictures. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 16:40, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh, and why Scaramouche? Well, it premiered in Copenhagen in 1922. And the Danish archives just made the 1922 newspapers FREE, as we've hit the century mark, and so now I can read the original critics' reviews! Going to be using a lot of Google translate. Yay, it's the kind of stuff that keeps the latent, oppressed historian in me going. :) ~ Silence of Järvenpää 16:44, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

a rainbow today, and a deer yesterday (but hard to see) - Jubilate Deo --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:06, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I have always been surprised by the accuracy of google translate. A few years ago I remember doing Spanish with it and getting awful results, though this year I've done much German and Italian, getting nearly perfectly intelligible results... it's still not so great with Chinese though! Aza24 (talk) 21:29, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

I am, too! I'm very thankful to the wizards who built the algorithm, because without the Finnish-to-English and Swedish-to-English translators, I wouldn't be able to do my work hobby here (the pieces I take on sometimes have very little beyond the basics written about them in English). I also have a hunch that Google reshaped the online translation industry: when teaching, I used to use as an analogy for the importance of institutional variation on political outcomes the translation of an English sentence into Spanish in: Google, Babylon, and a handful of other competitors, as well as a native speaker's translation. Students would put the English sentence in to each, press translate, and see... *BAM!* different translation outputs, despite the same input! This illustrated that the 'institution' one used for the job 'mattered'. But nowadays, the activity doesn't work so well because the outputs have converged and standardized around Google's translation. And less variation makes for a less compelling analogy. :) ~ Silence of Järvenpää 13:14, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I just listened to around half of the first act from Scaramouche. It's interesting, I'm not sure what to make of it. A lot of it sounded Tchaikovskian and perhaps a little Grieg, though certainly original on its own. I did find some parts lacked a sense of 'direction', but I assume without performers on a stage to accompany the music, I cannot evaluate that aspect properly. The waltzes were lovely. The use of piano was very effective—though rather surprising! Aza24 (talk) 23:33, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Wow! Hi, Aza24... I'm so pleased that you gave Act I of Scaramouche a listen! Did you do the recording by Järvi or by Segerstam? The latter takes things a bit more slowly. Yes, it is a confusing score... one that took me a while to warm up to. The words I would use to describe it are "strange", "creepy", and "haunting", and yet those sounds combine into something that actually has wonderful moments of beauty and elegance. But, yes, it's the only incidental music by Sibelius that he did not convert subsequently into a concert suite (although I think he could have done so effectively, as evidenced by the two excerpted pieces for solo piano, which are great fun). The backstory of Scaramouche is one that I find terribly funny... a comedy of errors: First, Sibelius thought he had signed on to write a few numbers, and only later realized it was a full, through-composed score! Second, He also was assured that there would be no dialogue, but of course at the premiere in 1922 there was! Third, he hated the libretto and thought it was a blatant plagiarism of a play to which Ernő Dohnányi had written incidental music. But, in the end, he apparently really admired what he'd produced. Maybe give Act II a listen, as well? The love theme (my second Lilypond example) in Scene 5 is quite lovely... I often find myself humming it. Haha. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 13:05, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

It was Järvi—who I just read an interesting article about in the latest BBC Music Magazine. Yes, I will certainly have to check out the second act as well... you are also reminding me of the Dohnányi pieces I've been meaning to give a listen. Your Lilypond escapes are making me jealous... I fear I will have to endeavor in such coding in the near future! Aza24 (talk) 05:35, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Aza24 ~ Wow! To make an editor of your calibre jealous is surely my finest WP moment! :) I'm not great with LilyPond, but I hammer (square pegs into round holes) until I get something that mirrors the printed score and sounds to my hears like the recording I'm using for comparison! ~ Silence of Järvenpää 22:38, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

The rose pic was taken on 11 Sep 2021, and this year was full of music that day, Tag des offenen Denkmals, not only singing in church and rehearsals for Verdi's Requiem, but two concerts at special places pictured, one a synagogue (pictured on its wall). Today three DYK: a piece we'll perform on Sunday, a violinist we heard in June playing the Berg Concerto, and a Youth Orchestra shaped by a conductor who recently died. Almost too much of a good thing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:36, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Chamber music pictured today: Spannungen --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:27, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

travel and strings sound --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:45, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

DYK for The Maiden in the Tower

On 23 September 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article The Maiden in the Tower, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that The Maiden in the Tower, the only opera by Jean Sibelius, was withdrawn after only three performances with the intention to revise it, which never happened? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/The Maiden in the Tower. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, The Maiden in the Tower), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 00:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt, Aza24... Good morning! Wow! 4,050 views yesterday for The Maiden in the Tower! Thanks, Gerda, for your work on the DYK (and, again, to you Aza for your work on the GA). Warmly, ~ Silence of Järvenpää 14:14, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Congrats!!! Aza24 (talk) 06:24, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

October songs

today featured Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:37, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Rollbacks?

Hi, Aza24. Hope you've been well! Sorry that I've been AWOL due to IRL. Anyway, a quick question: there's a user who keeps making disruptive edits (e.g., not following MOS and partial conversions of US Eng to GB Eng without first discussing on the Talk Page) to Kullervo and The Wood Nymph. While I was able to revert the former, I was unable to do so to the latter, due to (1) the user making more than one published batch of edits and (2) another user coming in to typo-fix. I thus think I need a rollback, but have never requested one and was hopeful you could point me in the right direction. On another note: Is there a way that the problematic editor can be reined in? They're creating unnecessary labor for others... oops, I better say labour! :P Warmly, ~ Silence of Järvenpää 13:43, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

I've reverted the edits on The Wood Nymph, which were highly problematic in numerous ways and left a comment on their talk page. I doubt they will read it, but maybe they'll get the message when they see their edits removed? If not, we can reach out to an admin. This is the kind of thing where Wikipedia:Communication is required, so if they continue to ignore us, a block isn't out of the question.

To request rollback you should go here, but they will only accept your request if you have a proven recent history of reverting substantial vandalism and then placing warnings on those pages. However, what you might consider instead is getting Wikipedia:Twinkle (I'm assuming you don't have it enabled already), which only requires going to your preferences, gadgets, checking "twinkle" and saving. It is kind of a source of confusion that twinkle offers rollback function (and perhaps more helpfully, the "restore this revision" function) but does not require a request, where as the formal rollback does, but is essentially the same thing. You'll find a huge amount of useful features under the "TW" tab next to "view history" in articles, making AFD nominations and such way easier. Aza24 (talk) 21:31, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Aza24. Sorry! I fell behind on my correspondence. Thanks for taking the initiative and messaging the user in question., as well as for doing the reverts on the Sibelius articles in question. Seems like that user has again become inactive. Also, I appreciate the suggestion for adding the Twinkle tool. I will have to look into it. Warmly, ~ Silence of Järvenpää 18:50, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

[3] But why? :( Aza24 (talk) 03:57, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Haha... okay, okay, okay. I'm sorry! Revert me. :) (My reasoning is that there are a ton of films, and it's hard to reconstruct the record of his contributions without becoming a Swedish film buff!) My bad. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 04:10, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Sibelius

December songs

happy new year

It's his birthday! - Today, also a hymn for a Marian feast, and I learned that Yvonne Ciannella died, the soprano who impressed me in my first night at the opera. As she died in March, sadly no Main page reverence is possible, - at least she had a good DYK, at a time when opera singers were considered interesting. I'm proud today that Christiane Hörbiger made it to that corner, and happy that we celebrate the birthday of Jean Sibelius again. - I heard an excellent Christmas concert yesterday, by Tenebrae, and a short excerpt of them singing "Deo gracias" is also linked from my talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:18, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Today was a day rich in music, with two new pictures, and also rich in WP:QAI contributions on the Main page: the TFA, 2 DYK and 2 RD with members as principal editors. The church pictured there (not by me, nice snow dust and tall evergreen) comes with memories, detailed on my talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:18, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Enjoy the season, dreaming of peace! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Gerda Arendt! Happy new year to you, too; thanks for everything, especially for remembering Jean's birthday! Can you believe that I missed it???!?!?! :( ~ Silence of Järvenpää 20:22, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I believe it because without our Main page, I'd have missed it as well. Today we see another composer there, Osbert Parsley. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:44, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Help with translations?

Hi, Finnusertop! A happy new year to you. I have been looking to work on the article for Sibelius's Voces intimae string quartet (1909), which is his lone notable work for chamber ensemble. Using the digitized newspaper archives, I have located the original reviews from the 25 April 1910 premiere. But, as we have encountered before, the Finnish-language press used that old style font, and neither I (typing manually into Google translate) nor the ORC service can read it. I was hopeful you could provide me a translation of two brief reviews. They are as follows:

• Uusi Suometar review (E. K. = Evert Katila)
• Helsingin Sanomat review (W. = name?)

For the Uusi Suometar, you could begin at "Seuraji sitten illan huippukohta ..." (i.e., skip the non-Sibelius part of the program). And for the Helsingin Sanomat, I would only need the paragraph that begins with "Musiikki-illassa eilen esitettiin ensi kerran Jean Sibeliuksen ..." (By the way, any idea who the reviewer is? All the paper provides is the initial W.). Many, many thanks for your help, if you can! ~ Silence of Järvenpää 20:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Dear friend, I wish you a very happy new year as well! Here is the bit from Uusi Suometar:

[...] Highlights of the night followed with Sibelius' new grand quartet which – the score has been printed for six months now – has been anticipated with exictement. To begin with, the quartet made a great and wonderful impact. Although most listeners might have found most of its content incomprihensible, the genious that is imprinted in it and the dazzling height the composer's imagination has sorared to could not have failed to impress everone who has heard it. Yours truly thinks this piece is the most magnificient one ever written by Siebelius. The carlity of thought and mastership of execution are equally astonishing in it. The material is manipulated by the master as easily as wax, taking the shape of musical images whether they be sparkling and upbeat or calmn and solemn. The composer is playing with form and nothing is no longer impossible for him. It is total domination of mind over matter. Probably in no other piece has Sibelius been so "airborne". The grand Adagio part evokes memories of Beethoven's last quartets and in the last, fast-paced Allegro part we find ourselves in the middle of a fantasy world in the midst of the night among playing elves and faries, thousands of sounds meeting our ears from this and that direction drawing us into the flaring whirls of their lively dance.

For the second time now I am allowed to return to the etheric and mysterious (the composer calls his quartet by the name of "Voces intimae") style and its [above-mentioned?] qualities. This time it suffices for me to simply express my joy due to this new compositional piece characteristic of the flight of imagination and mastership of form that the artist has created.

In a technical sense the quartet is almost unnaturally difficult. That is not to say that it would be outside the boundaries of "playability"; it just sets enormous requirements for the alertness and skill of performers. In light of this the school's quartet deserves honest congratulations. The performance is a remarkable accomplishment for it.

I'll get back to you with Helsingin Sanomat later. By the way, I still have subscription to its full archives, so don't hesitate to ask if you want me to check something. Cordially – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:35, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

That did not take long:

At the music night last night Jean Sibelius' newest string quartet op. 56 which the composer has given the name "Voces intimae" was premiered. The composition evoked lively attention and it undoubtedly can be counted among the most ingenious works of its kind. It is not a composition for the general public, because of how strange and atypical it is. From the short prelude, the Andante, we arritve at an energetic Vivace, from which different instruments form a most enjoyable and echoing fabric by criss-crossing beteween different images of music. The sense of echo is veritably immersive in this part as well as the Adagio which is in its benevolence and spirituality an unparallelled bit. In the Allegretto it is excellently entertaining themes that capture one's attention that at times organize fast-paced runs in intermediary sounds. I hope this fine quartet will be performed many more times so that we may have a chance to study its secrets more closely. – The composition was performed by Messrs. Rowacek, Hurstinen, Lindelöf and Bersfelt in a fairly smooth manner when we take into account its terrifying difficulty.

Mr. Sulo Hurstinen, who by the way was in the middle of action all night long, played correctly and with firm sound a few violin pieces, Lalo's romance in D minor and one of Gossec's gabots the latter of which had to be subjected to an encore due to extremely warm applause.

As the first number of the programme, Hand's string quartet op. 54 2 C major was performed. – Last night's music night was the final one of this [season].

Not 100% sure about the names of the performers. Do ask me to double check if you need them. I shall look into the identity of "W." – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:42, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Finnusertop ~ Thanks so much for your great work above ... I have been a bit busy IRL but, once I hit a Wikipedia editing patch, I cannot wait to use these translations. It's like an archeological dig, of sorts! Any ideas on W.? And no worries on the names of the performers: I have them already. Warmly, ~ Silence of Järvenpää 16:29, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

I did not find out who W. is by Google. I know there are books that list various literary pseudonyms. I'll have to take a look at those if and when I visit a big library. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:50, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

References

April songs

April songs

my story today

Thank you for restoring Carl Nielsen! - My story today is about the Alchymic Quartet, the last DYK from last year. - The songs are about vacation. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:46, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Gerda! Yeah, I'm glad the Nielsen infobox survived, although I'm saddened that, in its wake (and hopefully unrelated?) an editor decided to retire. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 04:13, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm saddened by the same thing, and hope it's only temporary. Most of those who retired because of an infobox or two - I think It was Robert le diable more than Nielsen - returned after a year or two. There was a time when people wanting an infobox were treated like aggressive invaders, but by now I think the time has come to accept that they are just the community. Why that is hard to accept for some, I fail to understand. I mentioned Nielsen on Classical music. Perhaps it was rather the trend of those discussions that made Smerus give up. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:20, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Gerda! I'll soon be adding a minimal IB to Leevi Madetoja ... fyi, for the table. But without a discussion, since (long ago) I was the editor who raised him to B-ish level. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 03:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! - I loved to see Marian Anderson and her story of protest against discrimination by singing on Easter Sunday 9 April 1939 on the Main page yesterday. Impressions of Easter here and music here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:40, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi, Gerda Arendt! Thanks for the lovely songs ... and on Anderson: serendipitously, I am working on Sibelius's haunting song Kom nu hit, död, her rendition of which from the 1930s the composer greatly admired! ~ Silence of Järvenpää 17:24, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

My story today, Messiah (Handel), was my first dip into the FA ocean, thanks to great colleagues. - a few pics added, one day missing --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:28, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

... and I added it, and a bit more - today is the 80th birthday of John Eliot Gardiner. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:42, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Water Droplets

Aza24 ~ Hi! Could you possibly, when you have a moment, read through Water Droplets and provide it a rating on its talk page? It's quite a short article. Thanks! ~ Silence of Järvenpää 23:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, would be happy to! Should have time on Thursday do so. Aza24 (talk) 04:49, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Aza! (And welcome back.) I apologize, but I got impatient (ha!) and rated it myself as a B-class. (Not sure if I'm even permitted to rate articles I contribute to...) Anyway, as always due to your knowledge of music, eye for detail, and keen enthusiasm, your thoughts are welcome. (PS: I'm finally tackling Ödlan ... a delightful hidden gem.) Warmly, ~ Silence of Järvenpää 01:01, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

May songs

my story today

Thank you for the Sibelius compositions! - I had a good story on coronation day: the Te Deum we sang that day. And the following day we sang it for the composer ;)

I heard pleasant music today - did you know a string quartet with two cellos (and no article yet in English? - I nominated Soňa Červená for GA just to give her a bit more exposure. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:56, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Congratulations to the Droplets now GA! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:09, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Thanks! I was lucky it caught Tim's eyes (and ears). A charming little piece, but a distraction from my larger plans for Sibelius's LoC and Kullervo FAs! :) ~ Silence of Järvenpää 00:07, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Good plans! - Pentecost was full of music, and my story today is that 300 years ago today, Bach became Thomaskantor, with BWV 75, writing music history. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:29, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Water Droplets (Sibelius)

The article Water Droplets (Sibelius) you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Water Droplets (Sibelius) for comments about the article, and Talk:Water Droplets (Sibelius)/GA1 for the nomination. Well done! If the article has not already appeared on the main page as a "Did you know" item, or as a bold link under "In the News" or in the "On This Day" prose section, you can nominate it within the next seven days to appear in DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On This Day" column do not affect DYK eligibility. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Tim riley -- Tim riley (talk) 18:41, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Congratulations on this revealing article. It certainly deserves GA.--Ipigott (talk) 05:53, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Eight years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:26, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Good to see the Water droplets on the Main page! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:15, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Water Droplets (Sibelius)

On 16 July 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Water Droplets (Sibelius), which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Jean Sibelius likely wrote his first composition, Water Droplets, as a schoolboy? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Water Droplets (Sibelius). You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Water Droplets (Sibelius)), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

—Kusma (talk) 12:03, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

‎Very quick translation?

Dear Silence. You posted a translation request to me some time ago, but I failed to respond to it quickly. Do you still need it? I am terribly sorry. I've been busy and slightly unmotivated. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:26, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi, Finnusertop (talk · contribs)! Sorry for the delay. But thanks for following up ... I deleted my request for translation because it grew and grew into too big of an ask. So, no matter. However, on the new article I wrote Chess, I am having a bit of trouble with translating accurately a few short prases:

1. Kansankarkelo (the liner notes to a CD recording translate this as "Revels" but that can't be right ... my guess is Frolic of the People of Dance of the People ... I'm pretty sure it occurs as the pawns dance.)
2. Kolukeittoyhdistys / Föreningen för bespisning af folkskolebarn (I translated it as Association for Feeding Elementary School Children)
3. Maisterin perikato (The Master's Legacy ???)
4. Vuoksen varrella (Along the River???)
5. Finally, help with understanding thne basic plot points of this passage: "Kansan karkelo. Talonpoikais-parit hajaantuvat. Mustat ja valkeat asemiehet vaihtavat paikkojaan. Airuet rientävät edes takaisin näyttämöllä saattaen sanoja kuningasten ja ritarien välillä. Ritarit astuvat esiin. -- Miekkatanssi. Osa esiintyvistä on siirtynyt perälle. Rivit ovat harvenneet, jälelle on jäänyt vain joku asemies, ritari ja rahvaan edustaja. Mustia seisoo vaikeiden puolella ja valkeita mustien. Hetkisen näyttää täydellinen hajaannus ja sekasorto vallitsevan. Kuninkaat ja kuningattaret astuvat esiin."

Many thanks for your help! ~ Silence of Järvenpää 15:31, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Dear Silence:

1. Dance of the People works nicely here.
2. That's a pretty good translation of the Swedish. The Finnish term is quite simplified. The only worry is if Elementary School comes off as a bit specific and mildly anachronistic. Perhaps simply Schoolchildren?
3. The Master's Downfall. Master here as in academic titles.
4. It's a good translation. More specifically, I think it has the connotation of a stream with strong flow, even rapids.
5. "The People's Dance. The peasant pairs disperse. Black and white armed men (pawns?) change places. The messengers (I'm not entirely sure, but given the context, they might mean the bishops, as those pieces are called messengers in Finnish) run back and forth on the stage taking messages between kings and knights (again most likely the pieces, although they are called horses in Finnish). The knights step forward. -- Dance of Swords. Some of the performers have moved back. The lines have become sparser, with only few armed men, knights, and commoners left. Black ones are standing at the whites' end and vice versa. For a moment a complete and utter chaos and confusion reign. The kings and queens take the stage.

Yours belatedly – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:53, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

August 2023 Good Article Nominations backlog drive

Good article nominations | August 2023 Backlog Drive
August 2023 Backlog Drive: On 1 August, a one-month backlog drive for good article nominations will begin. Barnstars will be awarded. Interested in taking part? You can sign up here.
Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage
You're receiving this message because you have reviewed or nominated a good article in the last year. (t · c) buidhe 05:15, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Your break

Hope you enjoy your break... Take care – Aza24 (talk) 18:26, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Aza24! I'm just frustrated about something WP-related. Your advice and support would be welcome, but alas, it's not something I can write about on WP. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 18:49, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Ah I see. Feel free to email me if I can be of any assistance Aza24 (talk) 19:08, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Missing citations

Hi Silence of Järvenpää. Sorry to bother you right as you return, but you've added some short form refs that don't have the required cite.

In Hymn of the Earth (Sibelius) you added "E. Klas—Ondine (ODE 754-2) 1990", "P. Järvi—Virgin Classics (7243 5 45589 2 4) 2003", and "O. Vänskä—BIS (CD-1365) 2005".

In Väinämöinen’s Song "Barnett 2006", "E. Klas—Ondine (ODE 754-2) 1990", "P. Järvi—Virgin Classics (7243 5 45589 2 4) 2003", and "O. Vänskä—BIS (CD-1565) 2006".

In Oma maa "O. Vänskä—BIS (BIS CD-1265) 2004", "P. Berglund—Warner (0190295869151) 2017", "E. Klas—Ondine (ODE 754-2) 1990", "O. Vänskä—BIS (CD-1265) 2004", and "P. Järvi—Virgin Classics (7243 5 45589 2 4) 2003".

Short form refs such as {{sfn}} are hyperlinks to full cites, could you add the required cites to Sources section of each article? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 14:27, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @ActivelyDisinterested: Thanks for your careful attention to detail. I meant to have those as efn's rather than sfn's. I have made the changes for Oma maa and for the Hymn of the Earth. Holding off for now on Väinämöinen’s Song , because I clearly made an error when creating the page: it should be at Väinämöinen's Song ... guess that's what I get for copying an pasting the character's name. Problem is, I don't quite know how to fix this. Moving the page to the new target is easy enough, but then what to do with the old abandoned one? Any help would be welcome. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 14:54, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Actually, I went ahead and added a uc template to Väinämöinen’s Song and made the changes of the efn's to sfns. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 14:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Silence of Järvenpää. The only oneissing now is "Barnett 2006" in Väinämöinen’s Song. Should this be "Barnett 2005" Sibelius: Song of the Earth? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 15:10, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Impromptu (Sibelius)

Hello again Silence of Järvenpää. You added "Dahlström 2007" to Impromptu (Sibelius), but only "Dahlström 2003" is defined. Is this just a typo? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 16:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes! Thank you! ~ Silence of Järvenpää 16:56, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

No worries, happy editting. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 16:58, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Autopatrolled

Hi Silence of Järvenpää, I just wanted to let you know that I have added the autopatrolled user right to your account. This means that pages you create will automatically be marked as 'reviewed', and no longer appear in the new pages feed. Autopatrolled is assigned to prolific creators of articles, where those articles do not require further review, and may have been requested on your behalf by someone else. It doesn't affect how you edit; it is used only to manage the workload of new page patrollers.

Since the articles you create will no longer be systematically reviewed by other editors, it is important that you maintain the high standard you have achieved so far in all your future creations. Please also try to remember to add relevant WikiProject templates, stub tags, categories, and incoming links to them, if you aren't already in the habit; user scripts such as Rater and StubSorter can help with this. As you have already shown that you have a strong grasp of Wikipedia's core content policies, you might also consider volunteering to become a new page patroller yourself, helping to uphold the project's standards and encourage other good faith article writers.

Feel free to leave me a message if you have any questions. Happy editing! —Ganesha811 (talk) 01:15, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

@The Night Watch and Ganesha811: ~ Thank you for this recognition! Warmly, <span style="font-variant:small-::

November songs

my story today

Congratulations. - Thank you for improving the Sibelius compositions! - Today: in memoriam Jerome Kohl who said (In Freundschaft): "and I hope that they have met again in the beyond and are making joyous music together" --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

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But have you seen this....

So glad you're working on the wonderful Langgaard tone poem. Have you seen this delightful clip? Aza24 (talk) 08:12, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi, @Aza24:! Welcome home ... haha. Yes, I was listening to the Langgaard (I have both recordings) and admiring his genius and excess, when I looked up the Wikipedia article and was put off by its quality. I started tackling it, only to realize quickly that the score is far too complex for me to make rhyme or reason of! I'm not even sure I got the instrumentation completely correct. Funny, because I was thinking of asking you for a collaboration on it ... and thanks for the video! New to me, indeed.

I've been doing a lot here since you've been gone ... mainly trying to clear out my backlogs in the various sandboxes. Primarily, I worked on the Sibelius concertante works (sans the Violin Concerto), as well as his works for chorus and orchestra (cantatas, orchestral songs, melodrama, and an abandoned oratorio). Each needs a lot more love, but at least several new articles now exist. (My style of late, for better or worse, is to jump from article to article as inspiration hits me.) I also got a copy via ILL of Dahlström's 2003 magnum opus, which I've been using to systematically source premiere dates, publisher info, first recordings, and instrumentation. I realized that I just couldn't get the Sibelius LoC up to FL without Dahlström! But that, too, is mired now in the muds of low interest / feelings of inadequacy ... though it will be my masterpiece here, someday!

I've also been thinking a lot about Grieg. As we've discussed, we've got to do something. I was thinking aiming for his death day anniversary in 2027 ... I am thinking on working on his compositions pages (you know I don't trust myself to write bios), but I want to get my Sibelius goals met first: LoC FL and some more creations and expansions up to Start or C classes. Catch me up! What are you up to now that you're back? ~ Silence of Järvenpää 16:24, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Also: Check out my fancy new Sibelius t.b.d. table! :) ~ Silence of Järvenpää 20:19, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Nice table... very satisfying to scroll through haha. Glad to here you're getting through your old sandboxes. I think I'm going to switch my focus to something similar: finishing articles I put aside a while back, hopefully first saving Concerto delle donne at FAR and then working on Orlando Gibbons (the first reason I came to WP!). I want to work on Johannes Gutenberg further, but since I initially knew so little on the topic, the research takes a lot longer than usual! Eventually, I want to get back to some music theory topics... general articles like Clef and Scale (music) get hundreds of thousands of annual views, but are usually in an abysmal (and often very sparsely sourced) state. I guess the damage is bad enough that the subreddit for Music theory says "Please know that Wikipedia and ChatGPT are especially bad for music theory topics. Our FAQs should answer your questions far more reliably"! Sounds like a call to action to me... (although being equalized to ChatGPT is bad enough).

The loc is looking really nice, but I think you may be asking too much of yourself (and the reader!). The sections on different genres are really nice, but may be too much info for what is fundamentally supposed to be a list of compositions, you know? Perhaps you might move much of the information to an article like the Music of Sibelius. But then, I don't want to create more work for you, and as we already discussed, there is no precedent for LOC FLs. Don't feel any shame if you need to let it sit for a bit—I'm sure you'll regain interest in it later.

I'm happy to give a go at Grieg's bio once we get closer to the death date. Hopefully we'll both have more old projects done by then! – Aza24 (talk) 23:03, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@Aza24: ~ A quick question: how does one rename a category? "Category:Symphonic poems by Jean Sibelius" really ought to be "Category:Tone poems by Jean Sibelius" ... like Richard Strauss, this was his preferred nomenclature. Thanks! ~ Silence of Järvenpää 21:29, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

That's typically done at Categories for discussion, see CFD – How to use CfD. Your rationale seems solid. Just explain that the majority of Sibelius literature uses "Tone poem" and point out that Category:Tone poems by Richard Strauss exists. Aza24 (talk) 01:48, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

@Aza24: ~ Thanks Aza!! Happy editing. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 01:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@Aza24:: Hi! Looks like the proposal was archived without anyone else commenting ... but the symphonic poems page was not moved to tone poems. Any suggestions? Thanks! ~ Silence of Järvenpää 00:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure you've seen this by now, but it looks like your proposal was simply accepted since there was no opposition. Aza24 (talk) 06:47, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

December greetings

December: story · music · places

Today, I have a special story to tell, of the works of a musician born 300 years ago. - I wish you a good festive season and a peaceful New Year! -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:16, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

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My Own Land

Hi Silence of Järvenpää. You've used references to "Barnett 2004" and "Okkonen 1990" in My Own Land, but neither are defined in the article. There is a "Barnett 2005" so I don't know if that's just a typo, but "Okkonen 1990" is missing completely. Could you add the missing cites or let me know what works these refer to? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:43, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

March 2024 GAN backlog drive

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Help with keys

@Aza24: Hi, Aza! I have been at work on the Sibelius art songs, but as usual, I cannot determine the difference between major and minor identical key signatures. Given your expertise, I was hoping you could help complete the table at Six Songs, Op. 36 (Sibelius) for me. The score is available via IMSLP. Thanks! (Will also soon make tables for Op. 13, Op. 17, Op. 37, and Op.38). Warmly, ~ Silence of Järvenpää 04:38, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for reaching out, will plan to look later this week. From a glance, it appears the first three are A minor, A minor and A Major. First one is a bit quirky, but seems to cadence on A minor rather strongly at the end, not to mention a surplus of A minor's leading tone. Aza24 (talk) 20:20, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

In order, as best I can tell (the 1st, 4th & 5th ones are not as clear): A minor, A minor, A major, G-flat major, E minor, B-flat major.

Speaking of IMSLP, did I ever tell you I've started helping out over there occasionally? I'll I've done of note so far is create this List of works by Hildegard, which Wikipedia doesn't have yet either (add it to the list!). How are you doing this day-light savings day? Aza24 (talk) 19:31, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello, @Aza24:! Thanks for your help on this. I will make the changes you suggested. If you're eventually up to it, it would moreover be a big help if you could assist me with the keys for the songs that comprise other Sibelius song collections. As you may have noticed, I made pages for the other "important" groups (kind of like I did for his piano and chamber works, I'm not going to make an article page for every opus number ... just the notable ones), as well as a few stand-alones:

• Five Songs, Op. 37 (Sibelius)
• Five Songs, Op. 38 (Sibelius), as well as an article for "Höstkväll"
• Two Songs, Op. 35 (Sibelius)
• Seven Runeberg Songs, Op. 13
• Seven Songs, Op. 17 (Sibelius)
• Six Songs, Op. 50 (Sibelius)
• Six Runeberg Songs, Op. 90
• "Arioso", Op. 3
• "Serenad", JS 168

With the exception of JS 168, each has scores available on IMSLP that I linked to in the article. For a few of these, I still have to make the table. It strikes me that this will be good practice for me/us if we ever get on with Grieg ... lots of songs!!

Thanks for asking how things are going ... okay, is my answer. On Spring Break, but bogged down in grading exams. Hopefully will be finished with them today and can, thus, take a day off (which means "day on" for Wikipedia). My big ambition is to finally get the Sibelius LoC completed. I've been working on trimming the footnotes, now that, with a lot of new articles created, those details can migrate to their designated articles. The table is still missing some random JS numbers, and I need to make sure I fill those in. I do have something about this LoC that I have wanted your studied opinion on: to what extent is having a column with fist edition publisher information a good or poor idea? On the one hand, I see several positives:

• Sibelius worked with many different publishers, and this historical detail is interesting since, in most cases, B&H and Hansen ended up gobbling up the independent publishers as they failed here and there. (So, the first publisher does often not equal the modern era publisher.)
• This allows a reader to sort by publisher, which means, e.g., one can see visually Sibelius's transition from Helsinki publishers to Lienau to B&H to Hansen.

On the other hand, a big negative is:

• It's going to be hard for me to fill in a large handful of cells, because the details are (to my eyes) confusing ... only in Dahlström, which is tediously written and is also in German.
• Dahlström's book is from 2003 and thus is deprecated: many unpublished works have now been published (or will soon be) by the JSW critical edition.

Would a compromise position be to cut the column but move publishing information that is clear/east to understand into the footnotes?

Really cool to hear that you work also over at IMSLP! Although, we need you over here at Wikipedia, and so as an interested party of the latter, I must try to encourage you to come back here! WP's classical music coverage needs you! Actually, I have no idea how IMSLP works ... i.e., how it does not violate copyright. But I am happy to use it when needed, because it's often the only way I can obtain scores.

And how have you been, otherwise? Warmly, ~ Silence of Järvenpää 16:25, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Aza24: Observed something a short while ago ... I'll just say cryptically: Do know that you're appreciated! :) ~ Silence of Järvenpää 00:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Hey, sorry for the late response. Thanks for saying that—unfortunately the ghost of Beethoven often overtakes me for hasty reactions :)

I would say that publisher info feels like an item for individual pages, rather than the comp list. There's a good chance that I am biased due to my unfamiliarity with seeing such information in comp tables of WP or Grove, but perhaps that absence is notable in itself. In any case, I'd be hesitant to add another column to what seems to be a rather full table!

I'm happy to help with further key identification—I'll add it to my list.

IMSLP is a rather strange place to work; there's not much of a tight-knit community, other than what seems to be occasional rapport between a handful of admins. My idea was to slowly make comp lists for medieval composers on WP & IMSLP side by side. Ideally, I want to upload all of the fragments of Greek music somehow; since there are only ~30 (see here), it would be awesome to have every Ancient Greek piece in existence easily available & accessible. I'm not sure how I'd do this though (my own transcriptions? though they would have to be pretty much reproductions of published sources, which feels like a copyright gray-area). I'll have to make a list of them for WP eventually. Aza24 (talk) 00:48, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind, I used your name formatting/time from the review at Talk:The Maiden in the Tower/GA1 for Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations#Proposal: Add the Nominator's Name to GAN Pages! Sorry if it gave you a ping. Aza24 (talk) 05:28, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@Aza24: Hey! Oh, it made me laugh ... I internalized it as a plea from you (even though it was nothing of the sort) to get me moving on my many GAN and FAN projects! ;D ~ Silence of Järvenpää 03:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

List of compositions by Jean Sibelius

Your edit of 19:24, 20 April 2024 (UTC) of List of compositions by Jean Sibelius introduced {{sort}} templates wrapping {{Collapsible list}} templates. Unfortunately, this and subsequent edits of this type introduced 75 div-span-flip lint errors (more than the 21 shown). The issue is that block level markup, such as <div>...</div>, can wrap inline markup, such as <span>...</span>, but not vice versa. {{sort}} wraps its argument with <span>...</span>, and the output of {{Collapsible list}} is block-level. If sort templates are needed, something has to be different in order to avoid these lint errors. —Anomalocaris (talk) 09:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Jonesey95 and Anomalocaris: Thank you to you both for catching my massive error. My apologies for creating work for you. As you can see, I'm perhaps not the best coder. I do need a way to sort the titles with collapsible lists, because right now they for some reason congregate in the S range. I learn best via demonstration, so any help would be much appreciated. As for repairing my mistake, I see Jonesey95 reverted back to the pre-link error version. The problem is that this also reverts hours of work I did double checking sources ... too much to redo, and so I think I'd rather manually go in an fix the collapsible list issues myself. Can we restore the bad version? ~ Silence of Järvenpää 19:37, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I think you can restore the bad version if you separate the sort template from the collapsible lists. Something like {{Sort|foo}}{{Collapsible list|....}}. Don't wrap the big list template in the Sort template. Do it once for an unusual term that is not currently sorting correctly, then see if it sorts correctly. If so, fix the rest of them. Ping me again if that doesn't work or make sense. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:41, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Jonesey95: Hi! Thanks for the suggestion. It doesn't appear to work ... see entry Kullervo at the very top of the table. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 19:47, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Jonesey95 reverted to the version of 00:57, 19 April 2024 (UTC) with edit summary "rv to last version without syntax errors. Template:sort cannot wrap a div-based template like collapsible list. Consider using data-sort-value as indicated by the template:sort documentation." This is strange, because your very next version merely changed a page number from 165 to 164, which had no effect on syntax errors, lint errors, or any other type of error except page number errors. I was tempted to revert to the version of 19:51, 20 April 2024 (UTC), but decided to message you here instead.

I can't begin to advise, because I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. The version of 19:15, 20 April 2024 (UTC), just before you inserted the sort templates, and the version of 19:24, 20 April 2024 (UTC) right after that, seem to sort in the exact same way. —Anomalocaris (talk) 20:50, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

The current version has no sort template around the "Kullervo" collapsible list, but when I sort on "Title", that row sorts between "Kristillisissa nuorisojuhlissa" and "Kullervon valitus", which looks correct to me. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Jonesey95: Thanks! That's because I went through and manually deleted the 75 sort templates on collapsible lists. Which I click to sort by title, however, Kullervo does not land between the two you mentioned, but rather is grouped will all other compositions with collapsible lists ... it lands between King Christian and Kyllikki, and all of these are in the S range of the alphabetized table. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 23:08, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Strange. It was working for me. Anyway, this format is the recommended table sorting format. If you apply it carefully (note the pipe before and after the "data-sort-value"), it should work. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:22, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Jonesey95: Ah! Yes, that works ... thank you for the demonstration. I just applied this format through the first batch, and it sorts well. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 23:44, 21 April 2024 (UTC)