Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2015 Iraqi Air Force F-16 crash

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Numerically, it's a little marginal to declare a consensus, but most of the keep !votes fail to cite any policy-based reason.

Should be listed in List of accidents and incidents involving military aircraft (2010–present) -- RoySmith (talk) 13:32, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

2015 Iraqi Air Force F-16 crash edit

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Tragic but not notable military aviation accident. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 23:06, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, I think this accident was notable in Iraq. Media discussed this event and there are a lot of Iraqi websites mentioned it. Probably it is not notable in Kenya or Uruguay but as Iraqi Wikipedian, it's important accident in my view. Mahmoudalrawi (talk) 23:17, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. Everymorning (talk) 23:30, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or perhaps create List of fatal Iraq Air Force crashes and include it there.We have not kept articles, in general, about each and every military airplane crash in the history of military aviation. Two news articles as refs? Still fails WP:NOTNEWS. Edison (talk) 00:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

try to search for (douglas f-16 crash) and you'll find dozens of news articles. I just selected 2 references as all sites gives the same details. Mahmoudalrawi (talk) 06:16, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To search about the pilot in Arabic: write (راصد محمد صديق) and you'll find many Iraqi pages and news about him and his death. Mahmoudalrawi (talk) 13:11, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is English Wikipedia. If you want to use Arabic references then write the article on Arabic Wikipedia!--Petebutt (talk) 01:06, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Petebutt: I'm surprised you said that..! WP:NONENG reads, Citations to non-English sources are allowed. I'm not sure on what grounds you made that comment. Regards—☮JAaron95 ^Talk 08:44, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As an in-line citation yes, but not the major source of information for an entire article, surely!--Petebutt (talk) 09:43, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - tragic, but not notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia. Can be covered at the relevant military aviation accident list. Mjroots (talk) 19:28, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as Mjroots--Petebutt (talk) 01:06, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I didn't mention what was written in Iraqi websites or discussed in media that they think it was deliberated and it was not an accident. There are many references for it:

- CNN
- CBS News
- NBC news
- Daily Mail
- ABC news

These are some of major news websites mentioned the crash. Mahmoudalrawi (talk) 22:33, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Still Delete WP:NOTNEWS --Petebutt (talk) 09:43, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sources provided above appear to be reliable and not just passing mentions. Should be enough to expand the article, at any rate. Foreign language sources are acceptable. I don't feel that this article is in violation of WP:NOTNEWS either so as long as it gets structured like an encyclopedic topic, and the sources appear to allow for this. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:27, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iraq-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:48, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Arizona-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:48, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:48, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:48, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep/upmerge to List of Iraqi Air Force crashes. Notable especially for pilot death. Buckshot06 (talk) 10:18, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Per WP:AIRCRASH.

For accidents involving ... any military aircraft the standard for inclusion is:

The accident involved the death of a person of sufficient individual notability to have their own biography page in Wikipedia (and the biography is not solely due to them being an accident victim), or
The accident resulted in a significant change to the aircraft design or aviation operations, including changes to national or company procedures, regulations or issuance of an Airworthiness Directive (or the equivalent to an AD in the case of non-certified aircraft).
— WP:AIRCRASH

Also WP:NOTNEWS WP:PERSISTENCE Also (last one I swear) The inclusion or lack thereof on other language wikipedias is moot. This is English Wikipedia. We use the inclusion guidelines for English Wikipedia.--Savonneux (talk) 15:01, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 16:58, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and Expand - I have found coverage by Air Force Times, CNN, Russia Today, Fox News, Associated Press and other Arabic sources (which I am sadly unable to read), and the deceased appears to be a flag officer as well; the death of the flag officer I believe tips the scale in favor of notability. Furthermore, foreign language sources can be used in the English Wikipedia. --KRAPENHOEFFER! TALK 19:46, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Expand what precisely? "Plane crashed. Pilot died. Cause unknown." Literally the reason we have articles like List of accidents and incidents involving military aircraft (2010–present). Also since there isn't even a cause yet, even more reason why WP:NOTNEWS applies.--Savonneux (talk) 23:18, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, there are Arabic language sources that I cannot read. We should have a language expert and subject matter expert collaborate in incorporating those sources into this article. In addition, the pilot was a flag officer. According to WP:MILNG, flag officers are notable by that criteria alone. As the crash resulted in the death of a flag officer, a person entitled to having an article about them to begin with. Per WP:AIRCRASH "the accident involved the death of a person of sufficient individual notability to have their own biography page in Wikipedia", hence the crash itself is notable. --KRAPENHOEFFER! TALK 15:54, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SOLDIER says:

In particular, individuals will almost always have sufficient coverage to qualify if they:# Were awarded their nation's highest award for valour;# Were awarded their nation's second-highest award for valour multiple times; or# Held a rank considered to be a flag, general or air officer, or their historical equivalents; or
— WP:SOLDIER

Notice the almost always, not always, just almost always. Here is an arabic search of the pilot's name for pages from 8/2006 to Dec 31 2014, i.e. before he died: [1] 10 hits, one relevant which is a passing mention about meeting a US official. Brigade General is usually barely notable in and of itself, they aren't quite the same as full generals.--Savonneux (talk) 03:07, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's not even what I was referring to though. It is a one pilot, one plane crash. No matter how you write it it's going to be. "Plane crashed -> Effects of plane crashing" aside from the pilot dying and a few bushes in Arizona getting torched there is nothing else.--Savonneux (talk) 15:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete military aircraft accidents are rarely notable enough for a stand alone article and I cant see any reason why this needs one, normal practice is to add these to List of accidents and incidents involving military aircraft (2010–present). MilborneOne (talk) 23:18, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.