User:Nobody60/Nils/Discussion about God
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An atheist discussion took place in June 2009 in Germany with the thesis, “there is with certainty no God”.
The Crazy Yogi edit
„“Dear friends, here is Yogi Nils. I am known as the crazy Yogi. I have a middle standing between atheists and Christians. I see myself as a friend of both. There is God and God can be scientifically proven to exist. The big discussion regarding the scientific proof of God has taking place already in the ecological forum Utopia. There isn’t an atheist on earth who can win the argument against the existence of God.
From my point of view, Christians and atheists both are correct, and incorrect, in part. God is a term of speech from the world of experience of the enlightened (holy beings, developed philosophers), which an unenlightened individual cannot really conceive of. It can be compared to the situation where someone talks about love who has never really been in love or loved.
So don’t fight too much. To talk about God a bit, can be helpful in finding oneself. But to really know and understand God, can only be achieved after years of spiritual practice. The enlightened generally have a good sense of humor, it is good to be able to laugh at oneself. I love it when people laugh about how crazy I am. I work in a world of egoism and self-addiction toward the goal of a harmonious life on earth for all beings. I wish love, peace, and wisdom where war, hate, and senselessness reign. I am totally crazy.”
Sven and Nils edit
Quote from Sven: Hello Nils, I am a neurobiologist and I work as a brain researcher in Bonn.
Nils: Hello, Sven, I am the little, unimportant Yogi Nils.
Sven: As no one in this forum can prove my point incorrect, I see that as indication for the instability of the argument in favor of the ability to prove the existence of God in a scientific manner.
Nils: I propose renaming God Sven. Sven is so clever, that he already knows that no one can prove him wrong. The proof is so strong that Sven is God. Sven is all-knowing and all-powerful.
Sven: The harrowing topic is at hand, that the point of life is not very deep or complex. Why do we exist? Because our cells have formed themselves into a functioning system which can reproduce. What do we learn from this? Live your life, have children, plant a tree, and dream with the media about forming settlements on other planets.
Nils: Dear Sven, dream on. When you are shallow, you don’t need to worry about other humans. I don’t dream of settling outer space, rather of a world full of happiness. I dream of a world of fairness, where resources are divided fairly so that people have enough to eat, can live happily together and live in a healthy environment.
Sven: I assume love is a relatively primitive emotion which earlier forms of life have developed. There is no reason to believe that love is anything but a bodily phenomenon. We are driven by this strong physical reaction to be unable to form objective opinions on the topic.
Nils: Dear Sven, it is a shame if love is merely a physical experience for you. When your judgement is clouded by physical occurrences, that is a shame for you, but it is not the case for all beings. Love is not just sex! Humans who are more developed, and not stuck in an earlier way of living, can feel love as coming from the heart. Love is spiritual.
Sven: It is clear that religion is important for the structuring of social situations among humans.
Nils: Religion can be misused through the malevolent goal to gain control over other people. Real religion leads to enlightenment. This is the center of spirituality. The abuse of religion and the manipulation of others through religion is NOT the center of spirituality. We should all consciously avoid the abuse of religion. This is where I find connections with atheists, humanistically engaged scientists, and spiritual individuals very important for this reason.
Sven: It is often stated that God gives emotions to people, which manifest themselves in the brains of the believers. To the contrary, emotions come from the neurons in the brains of humans.
Nils: Dear Sven, I am an undogmatic Yogi and not a fundamentalist. I can prove your irrefutable statements wrong. Humans consist of material brain and soul (or consciousness energy). Material can influence emotions through nerve cells, but the soul can also influence thoughts and feelings. In the astral word, it is possible to think and feel without a material body.
Spiritual experiences can be summoned with the use of drugs. This is often practiced in Indian Yoga. I don’t use drugs because a considerable negative impact on health is also associated with drugs, and it is impossible to reach lasting enlightenment this way.
Enlightenment experiences such as inner bliss, ecstasy, trance techniques can also be found using such methods as drumming, music, mantras, through sex (Tantric Yoga), dancing, and so on. In Yoga, the body is used as an instrument to reach higher planes of consciousness. Enlightenment can also be found using material processes on the brain. The way to enlightenment using meditation and thought work is the best in the long run.
Sven: „Spirituality“ and „closeness to God“ occur as a result of excessive emotional processes in the brain. This can be connected with trance states that occur when large groups of people gather (such as a group prayer at the Vatican), or visits to night clubs (dancing) or when experiencing an orgasm.
Nils: It’s not as simple as you think. Humans are not machines. People consist of material bodies and souls. Brain research has not taken into consideration the findings of quantum physics, near death research, parapsychology, or the experiences of the enlightened themselves. Brain research has not solved the riddle of consciousness.
The reality of a material brain does not address the existence of further dimensions. This does not take into consideration whether a higher consciousness (a soul or quantum field) exists. The findings of near death research, parapsychology, quantum physics and reincarnation research come closer to solving this puzzle, not to mention the statements made by the enlightened themselves.
Brain research concerns the material mind. It can therefore only make educated statements on the material brain. Statements about God and enlightenment from a neurobiologist are shaky, especially when said neurobiologist knows little to nothing about enlightenment and higher consciousness.
Sven: Religion and science are definitely not compatible with one another.
Nils: Separating religion and science from one another is a very dangerous road to take. There are plenty of flaws in spirituality which can only be discovered through scientific speculation and study. Furthermore, there are many scientists who are very helpful in enriching our knowledge base concerning spirituality. On this note, I could refer to the research efforts of parapsychologists. With such research we can reveal phony clairvoyants, for example, as the swindlers they are.
Psychology, philosophy, and theology are also schools of science. Would you seek to ban all forms of spiritual science from the universities? For you, only natural science appears to be science. It seems in your world, you are the only scientist who exists.
Sven: I can assure you that in serious brain research “enlightened” individuals with “extraordinary abilities” are not subjects of research.
Nils: And then the serious researchers declare their positions regarding God. They don’t bother to look into the topic of enlightenment, and then persist that there is no such thing as God. That seems to be not all too serious to me. Good that you can assure me you have not the faintest idea about enlightenment.
Sven: Nils, you claim energy is multi-dimensional. Do you have references for that? Do you have direct proof that God exists?
Nils: Sven, as a „serious“ brain researcher, you refuse to bother with enlightenment. The ability to sense energy is an ability of the enlightened. This ability often appears quite early along the spiritual path. Perhaps you’ve heard of the concept of the aura or have seen pictures of the saints in Christianity, or the holy in Buddhism or Hinduism. They are often depicted with an aura above the head and around the body in paintings.
The aura is an energy field around the enlightened. The energy field (or consciousness field) is multi-dimensional. It consists of multiple levels. An enlightened individual can deal and affect change on various levels (thoughts and feelings can be sensed and sent to others).
I stress the point that the concept of God is a term from the world of the enlightened. An enlightened being experiences God as energy, as light and happiness, all around. As long as brain research in Germany excludes enlightenment from their subjects of research, they cannot make serious statements regarding the existence or non-existence of God. It would be necessary for a researcher to come to enlightenment himself if he wishes to understand God.
Klaus the Physicist edit
Klaus: I consider Yogi Nils to be a nice guy with good intentions.
Nils: Thanks. I believe you are also an honest person.
Klaus: I also believe that it is possible for people to reach a real state of happiness.
Nils: Wonderful. You have a bit of enlightenment already. Now, you only need to confirm that happiness is an important goal in life for most people and that it would be good to work towards a happy world. Then we could really be friends.
Klaus: My argument is that you deliver the classic circular argument: there is enlightenment because enlightened report that it exists. It is only to be experienced by the enlightened.
Nils: Enlightenment was measured and studied by US brain researchers, as I have already written. In addition, there are many witnesses for enlightenment. Witness statements are valid forms of proof for the reality of enlightenment. Therefore, I don’t express myself in the form of circular reasoning, you turn yourself in spiritual circles. To be enlightened is to experience the proof of its existence. It concerns finding out exactly what enlightenment is. This is what science should research in order to clarify remaining questions about the reality of God.
Klaus: Regarding the higher dimensions: in principle, there are four proven dimensions. Three consist of space, one is time. Every postulated dimension correlates to a mathematical construction which gives us known concepts we can work with. There is no possibility to prove the existence of a fifth, sixth, or further dimensions.
Nils: I have already said that. It is a theory. Anyway. It is very nice to see the way modern physics have developed.
Klaus: The only known physicist who conducted a meanignful experiment in the 80s was Alain Aspect. The publication of his results emerged in 1982. He performed an experiment that showed that the Einstein-Podolski-Rosen effect could be real. Einstein had such problems with quantum mechanics and basically reduced it to absurdity. He needed one of his famous thought experiments, in which he had to exchange information between limited quantum objects and theories relating to achieving velocity over the speed of light. This was difficult to achieve. The experiment from Aspect showed that this was however the case. I still must ask, what does Aspect have to do with cosmic consciousness? The experiment of Aspect says nothing about higher dimensions.
Nils: Many physicists see that considerably different. I have already quoted the former head of the Max-Plank-Institute Prof. Dürr. I could also add Walter of Lucadou (ARD), Amit Goswami, Volker Becker and many others. My assumption is that there is a connection between higher fields of information (quantum fields, a higher dimension) and enlightenment consciousness. It should be researched further if we want to answer questions relating to God and consciousness.
Klaus: Your argument is that God can only be discussed by those who have personally experienced him. You can believe and assume, Yogi, but you cannot prove.
Nils: You should first read my text thoroughly. “God is a concept of experience of the enlightened.” That can be proven with the holy books of the major religions and the statements of the enlightened.
Klaus: I can also make the claim that experiences of God are hallucinations that come as a result of our own complex bodily chemistry, such as from drugs, sex, or trance. What is your response to that?
Nils: We’ve already discussed that. Enlightenment can be created through drugs, sex, or trance techniques. It is also practiced quite often in Indian yoga.
What can I say to that? Humans consist of material bodies and brains as well as souls (consciousness energy). Both can exist independently of one another, according to near-death research and the experiences of the enlightened. Enlightenment is therefore capable of being created via the world of material. But it can also be achieved with consciousness work (thought control and meditation). It can also come from a higher plane of consciousness, such as from God or gurus.
In the end, there is a higher field of consciousness that I would call spiritual energy. It is depicted in paintings as an aura around the head and body. Scientific research has only begun to consider this. I recommend further research. Today’s science should take on the topic of enlightenment if it wants to clear up the question regarding God’s existence.
Klaus: I can’t comment on the topic of near-death experiences as I don’t have the background there. I certainly wish there was something there.
Nils: You should definitely get acquainted with near-death research. It possesses the best chances for understanding the phenomenon of a consciousness independent of the physical body.
Brain Research edit
(Translated from the German Wikipedia article on near-death experiences): The case of Pam Reynolds is well-known from television documentaries. While Reynolds was a patient undergoing brain operation, various instruments were used to measure her brain activity while she was under the influence of anesthetics, and other brain activity slowing and numbing substances and techniques. The eyes of the patient were shut, and the ears blocked. Reynolds reported afterwards to have observed the operation while floating above her body and the scene of operation below. She gave details as to the discussion that went on, and could carefully describe the instruments and their application.)
Sven: Brain wave measurement is a complex and difficult undertaking. There are weak electromagnetic signals which need to be measured through thick, bone, ligament, hair, and cartilage. That researchers weren’t able to measure anything in this case is no surprise.
Nils: Your argument is incorrect. The near death researchers are not stupid. They researched thoroughly and came to the conclusion that no brain waves came through. With that statement, I refer to the researchers, such as Pim van Lommel from Holland and Sam Parnia of the University of South Hampton.
Sven: The brain cannot be emptied entirely. This would cause permanent and irreversible damage and could cause the patient to be mentally handicapped, and definitely not in the position to talk about God. At any rate, it is not noteworthy that patients under the influence of anesthetics can follow discussions during their operations. Even with blocked ears, patients can hear via the vibrations of the skull cap.
Nils: Your argument is not convincing. I do not believe that one can hear all of the details of a discussion with a skull cap and to see the details of an operation with eyes closed, particularly as a good supply of blood has been cut off from the brain.
I will admit that there was still blood present in the brain, as you stated. I have already explained that her brain was not entirely dead during the operation.
I have established that with ears blocked, it would be very difficult to follow a discussion only through the vibrations of a skull cap. Perhaps you have a very special skull cap. I would gladly have this, then I wouldn’t need ears anymore. This would be a very important medical development for those hard of hearing. Where can I find such a skull cap? Or do you only get one when you become a brain researcher?
Even more amazing is that you can see with eyes shut. You are probably God, as I have already concluded. You must have a super brain.
Karl Quark: I am not a biologist, but I know that the brain cannot be shut off. The body can only be slowed and cooled to the point where circulation is slowed considerably, but it is still intact. The oxygen present is not sufficient for normal purposes. The same goes for the deceased. Even when the blood stops pumping, the circulation continues for a time so long as oxygen remains in the blood.
Nils: The oxygen theory is scientifically refuted. The theory regarding hormone secretion has also been refuted. It has been established that brain waves did not flow. The ears were plugged and the eyes shut. How should a person observe things in a room when the brain, the ears, and the eyes have all been shut down?
The only explanation for this is the separation of the consciousness from the body. The soul observed the operation from above. Even you as a non-biologist should know that a person cannot easily observe an operation to the brain and then report its details. Perhaps there is something to the theory of the duality of the body and the consciousness. I’m just throwing that out there.
Hipsitipsu: You are nothing but a forum troll! Your Wikipedia article only contains a selected quote, in order to produce the wrong impression. Anyone who can read can see that it says, “ this is however not proof of the complete absence of consciousness. The neurologist Martin Klein: the EEG only measures the brain activity of the cerebral cortex, and only part of it”. That means impressions could still come to the patient in such a state.
Nils: I already wrote about that. To remind you, I said that blood was still in the brain. I admitted that readily. I have already explained the brain was not dead during operation. We have to take things carefully into consideration. Finally, I recommend that every reader of this forum read the entire discussion on Wikipedia.
I’ll stress it again: these things are not completely clear. It should be researched further and further discussed. At the moment, however, the results of the near death research point in the direction of the reality of the independence of the consciousness and the body.
There are thousands of other cases as a result of research performed on this topic. I already posted the gist of these findings at the beginning. If you’d like to have a look at the exact details, you should look into the vast wealth of research on the topic. I’ve already done just that, and summarized my results and posted them here.
Evoluzzer: I trust experts more than I trust yogis or gurus. For such extraordinary allegations, I require an extraordinarily convincing collection of proof from a serious site.
Nils: The experts say that there is no natural explanation. If you observe their discussions on near death experiences, there is a lot of room to infer the truth to the reality of a separation of brain and soul. This is also heavily discussed in science. There are various viewpoints. That’s good, that is the way progress is made.
It is a popular trick from materialistic scientists to set the standards for proof so high that no one can ever reach them. It’s important to approach these things without preconceptions, and to weigh the arguments wisely. I maintain there are many indications that higher dimensions of consciousness exist.
Julia and Nils edit
Julia: It would be nice if you would answer more than once a day and at the same time put all the arguments in their place, in your special way.
Nils: Julia, I like you. You have a sense of humor. Be happy that I can make you a little happy everyday. Even a Yogi has other things to do besides sitting in front of the computer. He needs to do Yoga and send atheists light. Today I am sending you lots of love. Feel the warmth in your heart. Open your heart.
Peter007: Hello Julia, have you heard this before? Little Julia goes to church on Easter and her father asks her afterwards what she liked the best and she answers:” that everyone sang “hello Julia”!”
Julia: In my opinion, a fully-developed theory on the part of an enlightened individual should be able to hold its ground without changing its basis.
Nils: Well said. Great that you find my theory well-developed. I would like to state, however, that I am not enlightened. I am just an unimportant Yogi. I don’t believe I am changing my theory when I formulate my thesis more gently, though.
Julia: If I may put your thesis into context: God is a concept that is not to be fully grasped, as I am not enlightened, which displays its essence in the form of strong feelings. These feelings can be measured and even proven by science and proof of God can only come to the individual’s own brain, at some point in time.
Nils: Dear Julia, that’s right. Enlightenment can be measured and has been measured (for example, in the case of Matthieu Ricard, who was tested by US brain researchers). There is already proof of this. On television, we can even observe how happily the neurologists went about their work, smiling while dealing with the enlightened. The only problem is proving whether God exists outside of the experiences and lives of the enlightened.
The strong feelings possessed by the enlightened are happiness, inner peace, and empathy. The feeling of empathy on the part of Ricard was much greater than that of the also-examined non-enlightened.
Julia: We can assume that someday the brain will be totally understood by science.
Nils: That I don’t believe. The cosmos are not to be completely understood by humans. We are a piece of a system (cosmos, God) and can only glimpse a small piece of this system. Science is an eternal process.
Julia: Is God to be understood as an established part of our material world, who lives only in the brains of the enlightened?
Nils: God is an established component of our world. According to the findings of quantum physics, there is a higher dimension of consciousness (a higher information field) that permeates the entire world. The enlightened see this higher dimension of consciousness as light. They see this light as happiness energy (peace, love, light, truth). They see light in the world around them and in all people. God is in all beings, even if these beings do not realize it.
Julia: I find the argument that God can be proven via the brain a shaky one.
Nils: Proving God using brain research is just one way. Brain research can prove that there are enlightened individuals and that there are people with special abilities. The supernatural abilities of the enlightened have hardly been researched. Some references are given in parapsychology, also when many materialistic scientists refer to this science as invalid. There are black sheep everywhere, but to condemn an entire branch of science is unbelievably arrogant.
Another way to prove God is via physics, even if Klaus says otherwise. Some other physicists interpret quantum physics more progressively than he does. There are even physicists who concern themselves solely on the question as to what existed before the big bang. For this reason, the topic often touches on spiritual themes.
The main form of scientific proof being dealt with presently is in the field of near death research. An important reference on life after death was given by the sixteenth Karmapa. Many statements from enlightened masters and clairvoyants refer to the existence of the soul after death.
Thanks, Wikipedia edit
Someone: Not only atheists see that differently, but all serious scientists.
Nils: In Science, these things are often debated. There are materialistic and more holistic-thinking scientists. Who is serious? It is a popular trick to consider those who have a conflicting point of view to one’s own as not “serious”. First, there are some trailblazers, then a hundred years later that point of view is the mainstream.
Peter007: Nils, I am amazed at the patience you have to try and get people to understand your ideas regarding the notion that there are other dimensions.
Nils: I believe that the discussion between atheists and spiritual people has purpose. The most important part is that this is taken seriously. We live in aggressive times. Therefore, aggression and offense in a discussion are normal and should be taken in stride. Humor makes the debate interesting. We should, however, be careful that the emotions don’t get too strong.
I write for the silent majority who read this forum. Most of the active discussion participants have their opinions and stick to them. I mainly write for those reading. I wish that the world was a happy place and that all people could be happy. Spiritual knowledge is necessary.
Karl Quark: Perhaps you could give us a link.
Nils: On the topic of enlightenment, Wikipedia is quite good. The experiment performed on Pam Reynolds can be found under near death experiences in Wikipedia. The duality of brain and soul is described quite well there.
Sven: I would not like to say that the scientists you have mentioned are incompetent or esoterics or pseudo-scientists, but there are reasons why their work isn’t recognized among mainstream science.
Nils: The majority of scientists think bound to materialism. They are stuck in an old way of thinking and are blocking new developments. Despite this, there are many scientists who do argue in a way similar to my own. It is often the case that there are first a few trailblazers, and then this line of thinking becomes mainstream a few years later. Finally, I am only interested in arguments. When we can respect both sides, then we can get along.
Being called an esoteric is not an insult for me. In esoterism there are many people who seriously and honestly try to find their way in life. We live in a multi-faceted culture, and that should be accepted.
Julia: As far as I understand, science regards the topic of near death experiences as a possibility. That means scientific findings cannot prove this phenomena wrong, but they cannot prove it either. It is a topic not completely understood.
Nils: Simply read the Spritualwiki under near death research and Wikipedia for text on near death experiences and enlightenment. Then perhaps your opinion will be more concrete. There is a considerable amount of indication for the theory of duality from brain and soul, and the existence of another dimension.
At any rate, Wikipedia and SpiritualWiki are on my side when it comes to the topics of near death research, near death experiences and enlightenment.
Seven Arguments edit
Wolfgang: "How can you justify your presumption that God exists?"
Nils: "I have seven arguments:
The statements of the enlightened. They see God as light in the world in the form of love, peace, and happiness. God is a term for the perception of the enlightened. Every real religion establishes itself around an enlightened master. Every real religion has a word for God, (Tao, Nirvana, Brahman, Allah, Yahwe).
The near death research refers to the independence of the soul from the body and the continued existence of the soul after death. Wikipedia supports my view on these things. At the same time, Wikipedia also brings up the arguments of the opposition. Everyone can read the discussion there. The most important witness is Pam Reynolds. She has seen the light of God in the afterlife, and learned that there is a paradise area. She has also demonstrated that her otherworldly experience was real. She heard the doctors during her out-of-body experience and could reproduce exactly the conversation later on. The gauges showed during her out-of-body experience that her brain could not think. There were no brain waves. And yet she has heard the conversation. Pam Reynolds could have heard the conversation of the doctors only with her soul. Her ears were stoppered while the operation.
Reincarnation research has referred to many cases of rebirth. Buddha knew his earlier lives. A good overview on reincarnations research can be found on Wikipedia. The most important and well researched case is Shanti Devi.
Physics refers to the existence of a higher cosmic information field (Amit Goswami, God as higher consciousness). The string theory supports this point of view.
Parapsychology researches spiritual abilities such as thought transfer, the ability to see into the future, and to perceive and sense over large distances. This field has collected many cases of aforementioned topics.
Scientific happiness research has proven the context between enlightenment, peace, happiness, and love. They have recognized the principles which lead to a happy life. They have researched Matthieu Ricard as an enlightened person.
I live as a Yogi. I have been in various states of enlightenment. I have seen God as light in the world, and as happiness, love, peace, and truth in myself. I maintain that enlightenment and God exist. I maintain that it is better and happier to be enlightened than unenlightened. I maintain that it is good to live in God."
God and Enlightenment edit
Fridolin: The discussion here has brought me further.
Nils: I also think that a lot of good arguments have taken place here, except for the more aggressive ones.
Fridolin: Even in Germany, Evangelical churches with rather radical perspectives have been popping up. Encouraging more moderate churches doesn’t seem like the worst idea to me.
Nils: I agree. We need to strengthen the moderate position if we would like to have peace in the world.
Karl Quark: You see God as love and through your feelings of love, you live in God? How should I interpret that? We live in a material universe. We are nothing more than material.
Nils: That is difficult for a materialist to understand. Love can be developed with spiritual techniques. God is then experienced as limitless love and peace.
Karl Quark: For you, experiences of love are unexplainable and godly?
Nils: That can only be understood by those who have experienced it. The causal explanation is God, because cosmic consciousness opens the door to love, peace, and happiness. In Yoga, that is called Sat-Chid-Ananda. First, limitless existence (inner peace), then a cosmic consciousness (the experience of the unity of nature) , and then suddenly happiness occurs. If this is exercised systematically, one finds enlightenment.
Karl Quark: The term God leads to the experience of contentment?
Nils: The cosmos is a system of happiness. It serves to bring souls to enlightenment. That can only be seen when we assume that the soul exists after death. The evolution principle exists on this higher plane as well. Everything develops to a higher and higher enlightenment consciousness (the life in God, in paradise). Humans then go to God.
Karl Quark: Why cannot God be comprehended rationally?
Nils: God cannot be comprehended rationally because God is a higher form of consciousness. If you consider God as a quantum field (or a higher cosmic field of information), as Professor Dürr understands God, then God can permeate every aspect of the material world. Then you stumble upon God in through physics, but to really comprehend God, you need to be enlightened.
Karl Quark: Enlightenment means inner peace, inner happiness, and all-encompassing love, according to you. Good, then I cannot find fault with enlightenment.
Nils: Wonderful. Then we can come to terms on that.
Klaus: Do you believe that God only allows himself to be found where rational understanding ends?
Nils: Yes. God can only be found through enlightenment. Life in God can be found through spiritual practice. The knowledge of God transcends all rational understanding. According to Buddha, enlightenment is best described as the way there, rather than the goal itself.
The way there is very simple. Set yourself somewhere for twelve years ( the amount of time most often given in Yoga texts) in an isolated place, stop your thoughts, meditate, and the light in you will awaken. You will see and understand what God is.
It is good to have an enlightened master as a role model along the way to God, such as Jesus or Buddha. A Darshan can (but doesn’t have to) open the gate to spiritual energy (love, light, peace, and happiness) in you. It is helpful to be peaceful, honest, and to have all-encompassing love for all things.
But be careful: enlightenment is not a game. The path should be tread carefully. It could happen that you open a door and need twenty years before you can integrate the newfound energy into your life. It can be quite intense to go through the purification process that ensues after such an energy gate is opened.
Klaus: I want DETAILS. Where and how can scientists find God?
Nils: I’ve already explained enlightenment in detail, as you can read in many spiritual books. It isn’t easy to give a physicist the convincing details he or she wants. Look at it this way: I give you what I know and you give what you know, and together we can try to find the way of truth.
Practice and Grace edit
Todoroff: We are saved through grace. Grace cannot be worked on.
Nils: Enlightenment occurs through spiritual practice and grace. To reduce enlightenment to grace is a big mistake. It encourages spiritual laziness. Martin Luther’s biggest mistake was the teaching of grace. This should be reversed by the Protestant church, the Catholic church has a better position on this matter. They know that one has to practice intensively if he or she wishes to go far in the afterlife. They didn’t get rid of cloisters, instead they preserved them as places for intensive spiritual practice.
The Dalai Lama teaches, „enlightenment is hard work.“ I can confirm that after twenty years living as a yogi. Grace is part of it, but laziness is not smiled upon by God. Jesus explained, “those who believe in me will go to heaven.” He meant a real and deep belief with that statement. The non-enlightened are not capable of total belief. The Dalai Lama has the “two hand” teaching. One hand is that of the student, and the other that of the master. Only when both hands work towards the goal, can the student be brought to the world of light.
Regarding intense spiritual practice, a few sentences from the sermon on the mount: “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” Righteousness means truth. To hunger for the right life means to long for a life in light. To be pure in heart, one must first engage in intense spiritual practice.
Jesus Christ was enlightened. He sat for forty days and nights in the desert. Than the angels of God came to him and served him. Those who wish to live in God must meditate. Meditation is the way to a godly life. The early Christian desert dwellers often meditated in the desert like Yogis. The gospel of Thomas says “search for a place of calm.” The gospel of Philip adds, “it is necessary that each disciple finds a place of stillness. From strength Christ managed his work, but through rest (meditation) he created light (the divine child). “
Shuichi: I tend to exercises and ways to achieve something now and not work towards a later goal. This striving for enlightenment is a matter of ego. That would be actually counterproductive, because you are so focused on a target, instead of momentary existence. I believe that also unenlightenend people can talk about God.
Nils: 1st Enlightenment is good. Living in God is good. Unenlightment sometimes is not so nice.
2nd Anyone can talk about enlightenment and God. The preoccupation with the question of the meaning of life is basically good.
3rd Since enlightenment is a good goal, it is good to strive for it. The enlightenment itself comes from grace, but without any effort is usually no grace.
4th After I had met the enlightenment, I realized that it is the deeper meaning of life and it’s all worth to do it.
5th The path to enlightenment is very individual. You should feel very sensitive, where the road is personally. In my experience, the principles of truth (wisdom) and love are very important.
6th Who really wants to reach the target, is helped by God (the enlightened masters). It is good to pray every day, to meditate and to read spiritual books.
7th Aims are a matter of ego. Shortly before reaching the aim of enlightement the ego disappears. Then you fall into the great being. On the path of yoga I find a constant back and forth between being and striving for the goal. Both are important. Both must be lived in each of the right moment.
8th Do not listen to the words of a stupid yogi. Think for yourself.
External links edit
---> Download the Wikiversity Book God in various formats (PDF, Epub, Kindle) for reading and give away.