Modern Greek sources edit

About some standard ModGr sources we use, if you would be interested to take a look. {{R:DSMG}} goes as far as Anc. If stated λόγ. < αρχ. or λόγ<ελνστ.. or λόγ.<μσν it is an internal learned borr. If stated [αρχ.] without the λόγιος (lógios, learned), then it is inherited. {{R:Babiniotis 2002}} [1] has older etymologies and much of it is totally updated at {{R:Babiniotis 2010}} [2], which does not make the distinction of inh v. internal.lbor (but he discusses it at his intro). But doesn't have any proper nouns (the 2002 has some). And for pre-1940 greek (all phases) there is wikt:el:Template:Π:Δημητράκος 1964 @arch.org with no etymol, no propers and a complex way of definitions by sense & period. But it is interesting, i think. The abbr[[[κ.]] = και implygin: ancient and... μτγν. = Later μεταγενέστερος (metagenésteros, μεταγενεστέρα) with an unspecified time span (depending on author). And for med, [3] where I check the true spellings with Ctrl+F because all older lexicographers change the accents according to their 'rules'. ‑‑Sarri.greek  I 02:34, 5 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

"first singular indicative" edit

You reverted this. Rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater, is there a way to determine if a given verb uses the third singular? This is definitely possible for Latin and most other langs I've worked on, for example. Benwing2 (talk) 08:05, 13 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

On ἔφαγον (éphagon) the issue is that it's an aorist, not a present, not that the form is third person. But do any other headword lines for any other languages include a little explanation of what form is used as the lemma? Our entries for Germanic and modern Romance verbs don't say "infinitive" after them; our entries for Irish verbs don't say "imperative"; our entries for Old Irish verbs don't say "third person singular present". It seems unnecessary. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:10, 13 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Mahagaja Yes there are some. I am not sure which ones currently but there were complaints beforehand (e.g. by User:AG202, User:Sarri.greek) that language learners won't obviously know that a given verb isn't lemmatized at the infinitive but at some other random language-dependent form. It may seem unnecessary to you who knows Ancient Greek and Old Irish well, but consider the casual learner who comes across an Old Irish verb and has no idea what the given form means. It gets especially confusing e.g. when Bulgarian lemmatizes on the 1st singular present but the closely related Macedonian lemmatizes on the 3rd singular present. That is why I believe it's quite important to notate that the given lemma form is not the infinitive (which would be the natural assumption). Benwing2 (talk) 08:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Still, I feel like it's overkill to mark every single regular verb that way. WT:AGRC and WT:Lemmas should both already explain what the lemma form of Ancient Greek verbs is. And no one should try to learn a foreign language using Wiktionary as their only resource. If someone is learning Old Irish, surely they have a textbook or a teacher that will tell them a lot more about how verbs work than we possibly can. However, if we are going to have this little description on Ancient Greek verbs, then at least there should be a parameter on {{grc-verb}} that will allow an editor to override the default setting. And maybe it's just me being nitpicky, but "first-singular" instead of "first-person singular" bothers me. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:56, 13 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yes (@Benwing2, I would like notes and exceptions to be made for what our Mahagaja says above. Not everywhere. My good administrator Saltmarsh, for basic verbs, gives a precise translation after the form.description. e.g. here+usage examples. Readers, students crave to copypaste it. Ancient Greek may have quotations + exact translations for some inflectional forms, but also grammatical identity of the lemma itself (sometimes it is not only 'nominative' but also 'acc, voc' of itself. I like very much the la.wikt boxes like at wikt:la:amat! ‑‑Sarri.greek  I 09:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

"edit aorist template" edit

the accents for the infinitive and participle for both aorist forms of βαστάζω are wrong. it should be ά not ᾶ. but I don't know how to edit the template to correct those entries.

βαστᾶσαι, βαστᾶσᾰν, βαστᾶξαι, βαστᾶξᾰν, are all wrong. and should be βαστάσαι, βαστάσᾰν, βαστάξαι, and βαστάξᾰν. the accent on the future neuter participle may also be wrong

could you explain how to do this? or point me to someone who could? — This unsigned comment was added by L0ngh3nry89 (talkcontribs) at 19:26, 18 March 2024‎ (UTC).

@L0ngh3nry89: You have to explicitly mark the vowel before the σ or ξ as short (using a breve diacritic). I have done so here, in fact marking all the alphas as short. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:16, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thank you very much! Now i know for the future! have a great day! L0ngh3nry89 (talk) 08:14, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

deleting content edit

Please don't delete content. If you prefer a different form of IPA, you may of course change the orthography, if that's not at the expense of inaccuracy. kwami (talk) 05:32, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Kwamikagami: So what do you say /pᶴ/ and /kᶴ/ actually are? When I changed them to /p͡ʃ/ and /k͡ʃ/, you reverted, saying they're aspirated, but your notation doesn't denote aspiration any better than mine does, and Wikipedia's article on Osage uses /pʃ/ and /kʃ/ without the tie bar, which I find confusing as it suggests they're clusters rather than single phonemes. How about /pʰ͡ʃ/ /kʰ͡ʃ/? I really don't want to use ⟨ᶴ⟩, because usage of superscript letters in the IPA (other than the ones on the official chart, ⟨ˠ ʰ ʲ ˡ ⁿ ʷ ˤ⟩) is quite ambiguous. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:31, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
AFAICT they're just allophones of aspiration. How about /p͡ʃʰ/ and /k͡ʃʰ/, with the aspiration final? kwami (talk) 04:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Kwamikagami: Those look good! —Mahāgaja · talk 07:44, 20 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
If they're allophones, why are they between slashes? Brusquedandelion (talk) 13:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
They're between brackets in the entries. kwami (talk) 17:37, 20 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

German River Names edit

I appreciated your contributions on Main/Moenis, and I would be interested if you would consider others, eg Ems/Amisia. Krahe thinks he can dismiss all this stuff by saying "Old European Hydronymy" which gets him out of giving a real explanation. I thought of deriving it from the same root as Amme, thus meaning "sustaining river", what do you think? Amme is a Lallwort, thus much the same in all IE languages. I have more thoughts on rivers if you're interested. 24.108.18.81 23:57, 21 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think in many cases Krahe is probably right that the ultimate etymologies are unknowable. It's not good to dive too far into speculative etymologies that have no basis in evidence. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:16, 22 March 2024 (UTC)Reply