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| quote = The consensus is to retain the current capitalization for the titling of standardized breeds on Wikipedia. While the supporters for a lowercase standard do make valid points regarding Wikipedia's MOS alignment towards less stylization (including capitalization), but in actuality references and standards are either confused or a counter-point. Policy is dictated by the community, not the other way around and general consensus is to retain the current standard of capitalization. --<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',Geneva,sans-serif">[[User:QEDK|<span style="color:#b7e">QEDK</span>]] ([[User talk:QEDK|<span style="color:#fac">後</span>]] ☕ [[Special:Contributions/QEDK|<span style="color:#fac">桜</span>]])</span> 14:20, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
| quote = The consensus is to retain the current capitalization for the titling of standardized breeds on Wikipedia. While the supporters for a lowercase standard do make valid points regarding Wikipedia's MOS alignment towards less stylization (including capitalization), but in actuality references and standards are either confused or a counter-point. Policy is dictated by the community, not the other way around and general consensus is to retain the current standard of capitalization. There is no specific consensus regarding what ''standardized breeds'' constitute and should be clarified in a separate RfC in the future. Furthermore, editors must keep in mind that inconsistencies will occur on any guideline and should exercise discretion with respect to edits which might be seen applicable to this policy. --<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',Geneva,sans-serif">[[User:QEDK|<span style="color:#b7e">QEDK</span>]] ([[User talk:QEDK|<span style="color:#fac">後</span>]] ☕ [[Special:Contributions/QEDK|<span style="color:#fac">桜</span>]])</span> 14:20, 26 January 2019 (UTC)<small>--Updated. --<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',Geneva,sans-serif">[[User:QEDK|<span style="color:#b7e">QEDK</span>]] ([[User talk:QEDK|<span style="color:#fac">後</span>]] ☕ [[Special:Contributions/QEDK|<span style="color:#fac">桜</span>]])</span> 18:26, 31 January 2019 (UTC)</small>
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Revision as of 18:26, 31 January 2019

"WP:VPP" redirects here. For proposals, see Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals).
 Policy Technical Proposals Idea lab WMF Miscellaneous 
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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss proposed policies and guidelines and changes to existing policies and guidelines.
If you want to propose something new that is not a policy or guideline, use Village pump (proposals).
If you have a question about how to apply an existing policy or guideline, try one of the many Wikipedia:Noticeboards.
This is not the place to resolve disputes over how a policy should be implemented. Please see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for how to proceed in such cases.

Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequently rejected or ignored proposals.


Proposed amendment to WP:LISTPEOPLE regarding the inclusion of lists of non-notable victims in articles about tragic events

No consensus to change the existing text at WP:IINFO. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 21:50, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Propose to add the following text to WP:IINFO (or some close facsimile should we decide to tweak the wording at any point):

5. Lists of victims In articles about tragic events, such as crimes or disasters, where people are killed or injured, bare lists of victims, which only compile names and basic information (age, birthplace, occupation, etc.) are to be deprecated. Victims of crimes and disasters and other tragic events may be named as a normal part of a quality prose narrative, but lists of victims names with no context are not useful to most readers anymore than lists of names are in other Wikipedia articles, and advice for creating lists of names of otherwise non-notable people are as applicable to victim's lists as anywhere else in Wikipedia. Victims lists are not accorded any special exemptions from the normal practices of creating lists of otherwise non-notable people.

Such changes are intended to avoid having to re-litigate the constant debates that happen over and over on various article talk pages. The matter has been under discussion at WP:VPIL for some time now, and there seems to be a general consensus to bring forward, for public consideration, the above addition. There was some concern over where to put this guidance, but WP:IINFO seems to be the place where it is most applicable. For the sake of organization, let's do the three section voting: Support, Oppose, and Discussion, where we can discuss tweaking the wording, make comments on our own or other's votes, change the target guidance page, etc.

Support

  1. As nominator --Jayron32 19:40, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Absolutely - FlightTime Phone (open channel) 19:48, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support - there is no need to include the names of non-notable victims at all in list form, and not in prose either, unless they played an active, notable role in the event (aside from dying) and they're participation is well sourced. Other than that, simply put; (with the one caveat) non-linked (red or blue) names do not belong. - wolf 03:31, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support As per Wolf. I will make some other points in the discussion section. In particular I think we should establish that the default position is no non-notable names. Lyndaship (talk) 09:51, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Generally support, modulo the comments of Andy Mabbett and Iridescent, below. We definitely do need to avoid listing non-notable people, and we definitely do need to avoid having to re-re-re-re-re-fight this out page by page. We don't actually need to have the wording copyedited perfectly right here and now, so massaging like they want to do with it is fine, and is something we'd end up doing anyway over time.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:12, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support with a minor qualification. Whatever we do, I think the status quo is not working. The lack of clear guidance on this subject is leading to numerous, lengthy, and often acrimonious local debates. It's time we resolve this issue one way or another. IMO lists of non-notable victims is a form of unencyclopedic bloat that is contrary to both NOTEVERYTHING and, at least in spirit, NOTMEMORIAL. The only exception I would concede is in some rare cases a mass casualty EVENT may involve a number independently NOTABLE victims whose role in the EVENT was largely limited to their dying. In such circumstances a short list of such NOTABLE victims might be justifiable. Long lists of such, unless they are stand alone articles, should be avoided. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:28, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support seems to me a general rule is needed, but a list of non-notable victims seems to fail WP:NOTMEMORIAL. No problem with changing the copy edit to reflect only people who are not otherwise notable. SportingFlyer talk 22:20, 6 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support. It is Indiscriminate Info to include random names from the phonebook in an article, without a clear and significant encyclopedic-rationale for each individual name to be included. "They died" is not a reason. I'd like to draw attention to a specific phrase from the proposed text: may be named as a normal part of a quality prose narrative. It is my rationale and intention that a "quality prose narrative" equates with a clear and individual rationale why each name is necessary to adequately explain the events and coverage. Examples: A criminal who caused the events is always a core figure in any coverage. If there's one or two victims, the media typically provides in depth coverage of the individualized-victims in the narrative. If a killer hunts down a single targeted victim and also kills a bunch of random bystanders, the target invariably receives in-depth individualized coverage as part of the media narrative. If a celebrity was among the victims, that's invariably a major element in the reporting. If a responding police officer is killed while attempting to save people, they invariably receive unique coverage in the media narrative. If a victim preforms heroic efforts during the crisis, the reporting will give them individualized coverage as a significant player in the narrative. However we should not list random names merely because they died, merely because they were listed in reporting, merely because news report provided some routine info about each victim in systematic and indiscriminate manner with no real significance to the narrative of events. If twenty people die, and a random Jane Doe is a 28 year old mother of two, that sucks but it doesn't add any encyclopedic information. Twenty random people died, obviously they had families and loved ones. Random names and random personal details of random victims generally don't have historical significance. Alsee (talk) 02:57, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Generally support also, given the caveat expressed by Andy Mabbett. Bare lists of otherwise non-notable names do not add to the understanding of the topic. If the victims played some substantial role, for example due to their actions during the event, then it would be appropriate to include them in the description of the event. But I agree that they otherwise run afoul of NOTMEMORIAL and NOTDIRECTORY (#7). CThomas3 (talk) 07:25, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Support not listing non-notable victims, who should appear only contextually where their inclusion is specifically necessary to understand the event and its aftermath, per previous discussion here and elsewhere and elsewhere and elsewhere. The principle isn't even really specific to victims -- the same should apply for participants in any notable event (eg Trinity (nuclear test)). ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 00:25, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Support – Wikipedia is not a memorial. There are certainly personal motivations both for and against listing victims, but if we remove those emotional elements, our encyclopedia should focus on its core values, such as WP:Notability and WP:Neutral point of view. Full lists of individual victims who do not stand out for anything else do not qualify for inclusion. Of course discussion on talk pages should be encouraged and honored, but an enormous amount of time will be saved if the general guideline gives a clear indication of the criteria under which people should be listed. — JFG talk 04:48, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Support we should only list or mention people who are noteworthy, that have a wikipedia article or are notable enough that a stand-alone article could be created. MilborneOne (talk) 19:44, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Support - definitely an improvement Llammakey (talk) 13:31, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Llammakey—I see you work on articles such as Passengers of the ships Anne and Little James 1623. Just out of curiosity, do you distinguish between the passengers on those ships and the individuals under consideration in this discussion and if so in what way? Thank you. Bus stop (talk) 15:52, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Support this wording. I think that all objections fail to take into account the part saying "without context". If there is any context to be had, even if tiny, this would not apply. wumbolo ^^^ 08:45, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Support: Listing not-otherwise-noteworthy people just because they were unlucky enough to be at the wrong place at the wrong time is unencyclopaedic, and frankly, boring to the general reader. An encyclopaedia should give me information I might want to know. I cannot imagine a circumstance where I would want to know the names of everyone who just happened to luck out on the day. If this were to occur, the information could be quite adequately provided by way of a reference or even an external link to a full listing somewhere else. The arguments in opposition below mostly reinforce my conviction that this should be specifically stated in guidance or policy. Special cases can be proposed, and where there is clear local consensus based on the exceptional merits of the case, decided on article talk pages before including in the article. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 09:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    You are assuming that what you want to know is what everybody wants to know. Consider someone researching family history or doing sociological research into workers in a particular activity; they might find a list of names, addresses and families something that they "might want to know". Information such as this may be verifiable, but if the source is off line in the bowels of a university library it is not available to any readers "general" or not. To take a specific example: I have recently been working on the Clifton Hall Colliery disaster of 1885 where 178 were killed. A list in the text would be entirely inappropriate, but a separate article listing the name, age, address, occupation, by whom identified and marital/family status might be of use. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:35, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:INDISCRIMINATE provides for the existence of information that is true, verifiable, and potentially useful to someone, but whose potential audience is too narrow for it to be considered encyclopedic. That last point is the one you'd need to refute for these lists. —swpbT go beyond 16:45, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Abolish WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Well, maybe not abolish, but reduce. Wikipedia is written for the benefit of its readers, and is not paper. All reasonably potentially useful information should be included. Benjamin (talk) 18:42, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Support. Thanks to Cunard for pinging in people (like me) who've been in previous discussions on this matter. I agree with the proposal, in general we should not be including such lists, they add no value to the encyclopedic understanding of the topic. There may be relevant exceptions, but things like Schoharie limousine crash and Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting look like examples where there is no good reason to include a list, and hopefully this clarification of the policy will lead to them being removed in those cases.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:14, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Weak support I agree wit those who say that including notable (I.E. notable in their own right) is acceptable, but also fail to see why it would be a list rather then prose. But articles should not become memorials to victims. So I am bit on the fence on this, I could just as easily vote weak Oppose for the same reason.Slatersteven (talk) 11:16, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Support - Alsee has articulated the reasoning quite well. --Khajidha (talk) 11:35, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  19. For non-notable people, per WP:NOTMEMORIAL, and also because these were normally non-public figures who merit privacy even shortly after their death. There is little bona fide educational interest in reproducing lists of names. The wording needs editing for conciseness. Sandstein 12:05, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  20. Support I've taken part in a number of related discussions and have consistently opposed inclusion of victim lists. It may sound heartless, but I see no useful purpose to naming victims unless adding their name significantly adds to understanding the event. Such discussions typically take place in the immediate aftermath of some gut-wrenchingly awful event, often involve new editors, and unfortunately often involve accusations of bad-faith against those of us who wish to exclude ( insert name of other tragic event has a list so why not this event? You wouldn't be arguing that way if the victims were/weren't white/black/hispanic heterosexual/gay adults/children). A clear default position would be helpful and that shold be exclude IMO - whilst I perfectly understand the desire to 'honour' the dead by recording their names, no useful encyc purpose is achieved by doing so IMO - it isn't what we do. Pincrete (talk) 12:20, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  21. Support again. These lists provide value to exactly nobody, and create work to maintain. Any notable victims should be worked into prose. —swpbT go beyond 14:57, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  22. Support. Somehow, these lists often end up linked, creating either permanent red links, disambiguation links, or redirects back to the article on the event containing the link. bd2412 T 16:58, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  23. Support, since most of the time these lists are of people notable only for being victims of the tragedy. There aren't notable people - if they are notable, mention them in prose. Kirbanzo (talk) 18:04, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  24. Support generally. (responding to ping) I would suggest this belongs in WP:NOTMEMORIAL and should be more explicit and give a basis. The wording proposed should simply identify the WP guidance instead of a vague “normal practices of creating lists of otherwise non-notable people.” Alternative guidance might be “avoid listing names in mass deaths unless the individual names are commonly listed in accounts, or are otherwise notable.” Guidance might mention that in larger events it is infeasible, and that if accounts generally did not do so it would fail WP:V or WP:WEIGHT. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:16, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  25. Mostly support, with the caveat that lists provided in secondary sources are reasonable. (Passengers of the RMS Titanic is an appropriate article, because the list can be derived from secondary sources, particularly books.) But most lists of victims of major disasters are inappropriate, because we simply don't know if there will be secondary coverage of the individuals involved (and there isn't, in most cases), and we shouldn't pretend that issues appearing in primary source coverage, like news reports, will necessarily be reflected in the secondary sources. News reports are fond of adding victim lists, both because people want to learn if they know anyone involved, and because it's an easy way of filling up space, but the solid sources we need to use are the actual indication of whether these individuals' place in the disaster be great enough that we need to mention many or all of them by name. Nyttend (talk) 19:48, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  26. Support Not a memorial. valereee (talk) 14:56, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  27. Support A list of people killed in an incident is, on the encyclopedia level, trivia. Wikipedia is neither a memorial site, nor an indiscriminate collection of information; it is an encyclopedia. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:24, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  28. Support Lists of non-notable individuals do not further the reader's understanding of the topic. –dlthewave ☎ 13:28, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  29. Support under the premise established in WP:BLP#Presumption in favor of privacy. --Izno (talk) 18:23, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. Unless "bare lists of victims" in the first sentence is changed to something like "bare lists of non-notable (i.e. not blue-linked) victims". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:39, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose as worded; I agree with the principle that we shouldn't include long lists of non-notable people involved in any incident (victims or not), but having a flat-out rule that victims can only be listed in prose would have far too many false positives. If those voting support really think otherwise, feel free to turn Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emergency workers killed in the September 11 attacks, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of victims of the Bazar de la Charité fire, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of investors in Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of victims of Nazism blue and see what happens. (The last time AFAIK that this principle was seriously tested was Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of victims of the Babi Yar massacre; yes, that was a long time ago and consensus can change but I find it unlikely it will have changed to that extent.) ‑ Iridescent 22:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Iridescent, you might wish to see this AfD. And, the Babi Yar AFD was a decade back (which is close to a century in wiki-time). ∯WBGconverse 09:12, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    The 9/11 list was an exceptional case. The numbers involved were huge (the raw text of the names alone came to 120kb); consequently, to source it to Wikipedia's standards would have involved 3000 references (or one reference linked 3000 times) which would have crashed the servers, even had it been split to separate out the four aircraft, three impact sites, and emergency services. I repeat my comment above; if you think consensus has changed, I've given you a bunch of redlinks above any one of which you can turn blue as a test case. ‑ Iridescent 19:34, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Simple Oppose per WP:KUDZU. Should be decided on article Talk pages. Some of those who have largely refused to engage in dialogue on article Talk pages are now pushing for a top-down solution to their issue with lists of non-notable victims of disasters. Let them use the article Talk page to actually engage in dialogue with those editors with whom they disagree. Bus stop (talk) 15:20, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  4. This topic has been discussed to death, a general consensus is that this is to be handled on a case by case basis. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:24, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Appeal to prior consensus is not a strong argument. Even if that was the old consensus, it seems to be going the other way here. —swpbT go beyond 14:59, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Victims should be included only if there is a reference for them. —Eli355 (talk • contribs) 01:02, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Eli355: If we know a name, there is a reference (source) for it. That's where we get the name. Thus your argument as written is that all reported names should be included in the Wikipedia article. For every modern-day mass killing, there is at least one source for the names of all of the dead, as here. Thus your position as stated is that all modern-day mass killing articles should list the names of all of the dead. Is that what you intended? ―Mandruss ☎ 04:03, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    "Thus your argument as written is that all reported names should be included in the Wikipedia article." No, I think you are drawing an unreasonable derivation from what was stated, Mandruss. A more conservative conclusion would be that "all reported names could be included in the Wikipedia article." Bus stop (talk) 05:00, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, but please let the editor speak for themselves. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:07, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    There is a difference between "victims should be included only if there is a reference for them" and "victims should be included if there is a reference for them." And it is as absurd to think we must include the names as to think we must not include the names. Bus stop (talk) 05:52, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    "Thanks, but please let the editor speak for themselves." - seems pretty straight forward, yet you keep posting. How about not posting and just wait for Eli355 to respond to the question that was asked of them? - wolf 06:24, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    thewolfchild—User:Eli355 wrote that "Victims should be included only if there is a reference for them." They did not write that it is mandatory that reliably-sourced, non-notable victims be included in an article. You might consider asking all editors that oppose a community-wide ruling whether or not they feel it is mandatory that reliably-sourced, non-notable victims be included in an article. This discussion is degenerating into a badgering of one editor on a flimsy if not entirely inapplicable point on something they may or may not have said. Bus stop (talk) 14:37, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Jeee-zzuz... you just just can't help yourself, can you? Two editors have now asked you to stop replying for Eli355 so that they will hopefully clarify their answer. So please, just stop already. - wolf 19:17, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Mandruss: That is what I intended. —Eli355 (talk • contribs) 20:46, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Which interpretation does "that" refer to?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:52, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @SMcCandlish: All modern-day mass killing articles should list the names of all of the dead. —Eli355 (talk • contribs) 01:10, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    A fresh trout has been delivered[1].  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:37, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    SMcCandlish—policy-level decisions should be implemented when there is an important issue at stake. But there is no important issue at stake in this discussion. I have heard the argument that there are debates. So what? In my opinion debates are commonplace and potentially constructive. And I'm not aware of any article that has suffered from either the inclusion or the omission of non-notable victim names. Bus stop (talk) 02:59, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not aware of any article that has suffered from either the inclusion or the omission of non-notable victim names. You've made that statement before. The obvious logical fallacy has been pointed out to you before, but I'll point it out to you one more time. You're not aware of any such article because you disagree with the arguments against the lists. Thus you're essentially saying that you're right because you're right. That is not an argument, and I hope you will stop presenting it as one. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:30, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Mandruss—the burden is on you to tell us not only why non-notable victims should not be included in articles but also why policy should be enacted to curtail the inclusion of information pertaining to non-notable victims. A question of this nature is obviously resolvable on an article Talk page. Why are you trying to enact policy to curtail the inclusion of information pertaining to non-notable victims? That isn't a rhetorical question. That is a question for you to actually attempt to address. I think the burden is on you to present the case for the policy you are trying to enact. Bus stop (talk) 14:34, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  6. The individual talk pages should be used to work this out case by case. I agree that references are needed and that it is better to use prose. But a bare list is a transition from nothing to paragraphs of writing. So if we make a blanket rule we placing a higher hurdle to get over to improve the articles. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:35, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    We have a cleanup tag for that: {{prose}}. Nothing about the proposal suggests ignoring WP:NORUSH. —swpbT go beyond 16:26, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Oppose - Can we please just let editors decide things? FOARP (talk) 09:00, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    That's exactly what we're doing here. —swpbT go beyond 15:03, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    No, no it isn’t. The people who will vote here will be a vanishingly small sub-set of editors, the most active ones, not in anyway representative of the whole. It will be decided, not based on an actual article, but on what people think in general should be done in a discussion largely detached form the actual subject matter which includes these lists.
    Editors deciding means exactly that - the editors of Wiki, the hundred thousand plus most of whom have never read a policy, deciding whether the articles they edit should include the list or not on a case-by-case basis.
    I mean there’s people !voting here who haven’t started an article in years and whose edits overwhelmingly aren’t in article space. Does that look like “editors deciding” to you? FOARP (talk) 15:36, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Oppose. Rules creep. It's entirely down to the context. Lists of victims may or may not be relevant. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:38, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Oppose listing names of victims is a useful and natural part of articles on many events.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:19, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Oppose (pinged here) until last sentence is removedThanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 12:40, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Oppose in many articles the name and residence of the victims provides valuable context for the event itself; but not in all of them. It should be up to each page editors' to figure out what is best for each case. This is, in any event, the general conclusion drawn from TP discussions. This proposal looks rather like an attempt to engineer a top-down solution, one-size fits all. Besides, do bureaucrats want to drown editors in a morass of WP:CREEP? That's one nice way to drive away beginners from this project. XavierItzm (talk) 13:26, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    In my experience, lack of explicit guidance, and the arguing that results, pushes away far more users than being decisively reverted with a summary that points to MOS, so that one can learn something and quickly move on. —swpbT go beyond 16:18, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Oppose because history has taught us that this will not end up being implemented uniformly. We will still end up with articles including the names of victims of American mass shootings in list format, and Bloody Sunday (1972)#Casualties will not be touched (because there's a huge amount of "relevant detail" in that "narrative" list!); but Remembrance Day bombing and Omagh bombing will never have all victims' names added. Policy will be quoted as to why one article can (must!) have them, and why one can't. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:28, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The proposal accounts for your example. Bloody Sunday (1972)#Casualties is not a "bare list" of "names and basic information" – the detail it gives on how these victims died is academically relevant to someone studying the nature of the event. The line created by the proposal is pretty sharp (I'm sure there are edge cases, but these aren't them). Moreover, the mere division of cases by a line, a "non-uniformity" as you'd have it, is the opposite of a problem: it is the sole means of handling diverse cases objectively, and is the basis of the entire MOS! —swpbT go beyond 15:19, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Oppose See Discussion. DonFB (talk) 14:49, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Oppose providing they are named in at least two national reliable sources and are therefore in the public domain so privacy is not an issue. Also this is an example of instruction creep, regards Atlantic306 (talk) 14:55, 20 December 2018 (UTC) (pinged by Cunard)[reply]
  15. Oppose Instruction creep. SparklingPessimist Scream at me! 15:02, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Odd oppose. Yes, the bare lists of victim names are bad. But the reason why they are bad is that they should be full descriptions of the people killed. Even though victims obviously play a larger role in any massacre than the killer(s), there is a cult on Wikipedia that believes that victims are nameless sheep unworthy of recollection, while mass murderers are change agents who have earned their place in Valhalla by virtue of the souls they have extracted into their bloodstained blades, raising them to superhuman experience levels. The "bare lists" are often bad compromises between these cultists and the people who want to tell the whole story -- what was really lost in the massacre, rather than just that it happened. But my feeling is that to put a ban on the compromise in this "indiscriminate information" collection will be taken as a victory for the cult and a defeat for the encyclopedists, so I won't have it. Wnt (talk) 15:17, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    You're challenging a much more fundamental consensus than the one largely at issue here. We're talking about whether victims generally agreed to be non-notable should be listed; you're arguing that all victims are inherently notable, as notable even as the killers. While you can make that case if you want, it's going to be a very uphill push: WP:NBIO confers notability through sources, not as a celebration or reward. —swpbT go beyond 16:13, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think anybody has argued that "non-notable" people are notable. "The notability guideline does not determine the content of articles, but only whether the topic should have its own article."[2] Bus stop (talk) 16:35, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    It's actually worse than that. Wnt's rationale is blatantly opposed to the principle that Wikipedia is not a memorial. Not to mention the name calling directed at the supporters of this motion.--Khajidha (talk) 16:21, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    "Memorial" seems like a very pliable phrase. If multiple news sources profile the victims of a massacre, then when editors summarize what these sources say as part of the article, just as we would summarize intricate details about the car he mowed them over with or the magazine and bullets he shot them with, that is said to be a "memorial", because Everybody Knows they are nobodies not worth remembering. Whereas the killer, of course, should be covered in lavish detail, as he is an Emissary of Father Death, a deity incarnate, on whose words we hang to know the nature of morality and humanity and to decide what things to ban or mandate for all the ordinary little people. That's not a memorial, no ... maybe it's a shrine. I dunno. I'd just rather let editors summarize all the facts from all the articles printed about a topic. Wnt (talk) 04:46, 25 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Oppose because I think it's poorly written (Could the OP at least make up his mind about whether this new rule is supposed to go in the LISTPEOPLE guideline or in the IINFO policy? The section heading says one and the RFC question says the other), not going to achieve goal of stopping these disputes, and because it doesn't represent the discussions. In particular:
    • It talks about "Victims of crimes and disasters and other tragic events", but the conversation is frequently focused specifically on random mass killings (which, unlike this proposed rule, requires a minimum of four people being killed – this rule is written to apply to all crimes, including those with no fatalities or only one victim).
    • Some supporters of this rule oppose only including these names when they're formatted using unordered bulleted * list formatting, but not opposed to otherwise including these names. As a result, I cannot tell from this proposed text whether the first paragraph in Chicago Tylenol murders#Incidents, which "lists the victims" but does not use "list formatting" to do so, is acceptable, and I don't think anyone else can, either.
    • Then there's the whole thread about whether only "passive" victims should be excluded, so that you exclude the names and locations of the passive victims in the Tylenol murders and most of the non-violent protesters in Peterloo Massacre#Victims, but you include the names of people who did something, and you fight over whether victims of domestic violence or non-resistant martyrs are truly "passive" in the events leading to their murders.
      In short, this rule doesn't seem to get us any closer to actually documenting what the community usually prefers to do. Finally, given the lists below of dozens of articles that contain victims' names, I begin to wonder whether this rule might actually be the opposite of what experienced editors have been doing these last few years. Perhaps those lists aren't representative; I haven't checked for counter-examples (but there sure are a lot of them there...). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:59, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Oppose as list vs prose illogical - I could get behind the base logic of "don't include all the names of non-notable victims" or some variant of that. I cannot however understand why this should be suitable in prose and not in lists - or at least reliably so. I can understand a top-down policy approach for an all or nothing approach, but if the dispute is going to be formatting based, then it should be left to the editors. Nosebagbear (talk) 18:09, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Oppose (summoned by a ping). I have found lists of victims names useful in the past -- both in terms of human interest and as an aid in further research on the topic. It might not be relevant to you, but it will be relevant to somebody. Often the victims are commemorated with annual events or plaques. There should be some common sense guidelines -- like making sure the names are widely available, providing as much relevant info on the victim (manner of death, any actions taken during the event, any special honors like state funeral after) or limiting/pruning the lists of the number of victims exceed x. There is nothing inherently evil of individually "non-notable" items. Just because it is not a blue link, does not mean that the info is not valuable. Renata (talk) 18:29, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  20. Oppose whether or not some information is encyclopedic has nothing to do with the format the information is in. If a list of five names is unencyclopedic in list format then it is also unencyclopedic in prose format. I don't think it is necessarily unencyclopedic to include these names, and the lists presented below demonstrate that the proposal isn't merely confirming existing practice on this issue. Media organisations do sometimes devote substantial coverage to the victims of an attack, and while that doesn't make them notable it is accepted practice to include coverage of people only known because of one event in the article about that event. Lists of victims may also be useful for other reasons, e.g. Columbine High School massacre has a list of victims presented inline with the text to illustrate the narrative. Hut 8.5 18:40, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  21. Oppose - Handling this on a case-by-case basis is preferable to an outright prohibition. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:42, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  22. OpposeVictim lists should be the default in articles about mass shootings. First, these articles exist because people were killed in a mass shooting; the identities of these people are an important component of the shooting. If you leave out names and descriptive details, you are omitting key information. Second, the victims of shootings tend to receive substantial news coverage. While we are not required to include everything covered by the news media, the fact that they receive so much coverage (and not just the occasional offhand reference) indicates that their identities are in fact significant. Third, NOTMEMORIAL prohibits creating articles about non-notable people (i.e. its an applied restatement of notability requirements). It says nothing about neutrally worded lists of victims within articles. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:31, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  23. Oppose This has long been contentious. The archive at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not shows the meaning WP:NOTMEMORIAL has been up for grabs ever since it was first written in 2014. Any time the not-memorial policy is cited, half the editors dispute whether or not it is pertinent because there is no consensus as to what the policy even is.

    The false premise hiding behind all this confusion is that the names of dead people are supposedly special facts, requiring special treatment apart from names of pop songs or symphonies, or the names of products, or events in a timeline, or any other fact or piece of data. Recently deceased people can fall under the extra restriction of the WP:BLP policy, under WP:BDP. But if someone has been dead more than 6-12 months or so, their name is not a special fact. Featured articles like Sex Pistols have embedded lists of singles, about two dozen of them, with only 10 or so bluelinked, notable songs. The rest are just listed because they are facts that enhance the article, based on context and editorial judgement. See the list of non-notable works in the FA Franz Kafka. Non-notable stuff is contained in articles, facts or names in prose or list form, like the works in the FA bio Michael Woodruff, or lists of patents or inventions. If an article happens to have names of casualties or victims or whatever associated with it, it's no different than a band that might have names of band members, producers, managers, etc, associated with it. They're just facts. Do the belong in a particular article? It depends. We don't need a special policy just because the facts in question are the names of dead people.

    If you think a given list or article about an event is worse because it lists the names of deceased people, you should be able to make your case without leaning on a special policy that puts a blanket restriction on the names of the deceased. If editorial consensus is that a given page is better because it includes non-notable casualties, or song titles, or articles written, or patents issued, then you should respect that local consensus. Policy can't intervene and tell editors you disagree with that they're wrong. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 05:58, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Well said, Dennis Bratland. Renata (talk) 17:24, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  24. Oppose: This is clearly an example of a class of editorial decision that ought to be made as a matter of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS by evaluating the merits of each individual case, taking into account the full encyclopedic context of the event being covered and the nature of the content being considered. Creating a default rule here is unnecessary and indeed the most unwieldy, counter-intuitive, and potentially problematic route to contemplate. I try to stay away from the term "rule creep" where possible (as I personally do not view robust policy as per se negative in most instances) but I have to say it would seem to apply in this instance. Snow let's rap 07:23, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  25. Oppose per WP:CREEP, WP:NOTLAW and the opposes above. Andrew D. (talk) 09:10, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  26. Oppose This proposal is well-meaning and sounds good in theory, but when I look at article like this,[3] I don't see a problem. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:28, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  27. Oppose {{infobox criminal}} is one such example where a |victims= parameter allows for lists such as these. In light of what Bratland said above about treating facts all the same, it seems arbitrary to say a fact can't come in through the front door when other facts already enter through the side. If this were to become a blanket rule, then all of these other doorways for victim list-inclusion ought to be sealed up as well, shouldn't they?  Spintendo  22:55, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  28. Oppose. I think the local page is often the best place to decide, as I said previously. At the same time, it would be helpful if we had some guidance as when it is and isn't a good idea to include a list. A hard rule isn't the same as guidance. Before we can really reach a consensus on that guidance, or this current rule, I think we need to discuss when it is and isn't a good idea to have lists of names, and develop a criteria that has consensus. Even if it is nothing more than a widely accepted Essay. (like WP:BRD). Also, there needs to be enough wiggle room to deal with what we can't anticipate, which is a lot. A straight up or down vote on disallowing them is never going to pass, and with all due respect, a waste of time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:39, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  29. Oppose First, I dislike having a blanket rule. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:57, 28 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  30. Oppose as extreme WP:CREEP, this should be decided case by case as to what is appropriate for each article, rather than by abstract rule without regard to sources, circumstances, or subject. postdlf (talk) 00:49, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  31. Oppose In a number of articles listed below, the lists seem appropriate. Also WP:CREEP, etc. Hobit (talk) 15:45, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

  1. LOOKING FOR A THIRD WAY: In a print source, lists like this are often included in footnotes or in an appendix. That's print's way of striking a balance between including all possible information that might be useful to someone later, and keeping the narrative readable. My suggestion would be to look for a "third way" to tidily meet both concerns. FOR EXAMPLE, what if there were a template to use on TALK PAGES to list people involved in an event? OR something similar to the template for succession boxes that could be added to the bottom of pages, and only expands if you click on it? Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 16:37, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There are emotional reasons why people want to include such lists, and generally they do not improve the quality of the narrative. People trying to get around a new rule won't improve the narrative either, just result in article bloat. There are historical reasons to want to include such lists, and they don't always improve the readability of the narrative either. But the information involved can be useful and a standard technique for handling it would be a way to more easily resolve conflict. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 16:37, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  1. This should be handled on a case by case basis depending on the article and type of violent incident. If describing the manner/ages/details of how or which victims died would provide additional understanding, a list with explanations of the deaths would be appropriate. For example, the article on the Columbine High School massacre lists the victims, their ages, and how they died, which provides significant understanding as to what people might have been peers of the perpetrators, what people might have been teachers, as well breaking down what parts of their massacre were lethal. This is also demonstrated in the article on the Sandy Hook massacre where distinguishing the teachers, students, and the shooter's mother helps provide understanding of the death toll versus just saying "28 people including the perpetrator were killed".
In contrast, the article on the Lockerbie Bombing provides a detailed breakdown of victims by nationality, as well as notable victims, plus an explanation of which people died on the plane and who died on the ground. This is because providing a detailed list of people who died on the plane like in smaller events would be unwieldy due to the scale of the disaster, and the pertinent information is the nationalities of the victims who have died and groups that the bombing had an outsize influence on (Syracuse University having 35 students die). However, there is a list of people who died on the ground, as while a list of people who died on the flight would not provide too much information to the reader beside a cross section of America/UK/other parts of the world, a list of people who died on the ground allows the reader to understand which houses in Lockerbie were destroyed, as well as how the town was affected by the plane crash.
Honestly, in conclusion, I believe a one-sized fits all policy on lists of names would do more harm than good. Tragedies with large death tolls occur on a spectrum of differentiation that requires a unique assessment of every article in order to see how much detail should be provided in covering the victims of such events. Sometimes it's useful to detail every single person who died and how, in other cases such as plane crashes it might only be useful to detail nationalities, notable people, and specific groups affected. In some cases such as the Mississauga restaurant bombing there's no need to detail specific victims at all, as there's not much to be said about minor injuries. We need to take a case by case basis on every article talk page to see how much detail is appropriate to provide, so I'm !voting neutral instead of oppose as "oppose" would seem to imply that I am definitively in favor of lists, which I am not. Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 10:39, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

As I indicated at VPI, the effect for random mass killings articles will be that editors who want the victims named (for any of a number of reasons, not always openly stated) will simply write "quality prose narratives" that include every victim. The necessary material is almost always gathered by a handful of news organizations who have a different mission (and a profit motive), this CNN article being a typical example. This tactic will defeat the spirit of the guideline and, far from putting an end to the endless battle in this area, will merely change its nature. At VPI I said I would suggest an improvement after sleeping on it, but I have failed to come up with anything. I think we just need more and better minds thinking about it.
It would be easy to say that nobody should be named who doesn't have a Wikipedia article, but I'm not sure that's not too high a bar. It's higher than at WP:BLPNAME, which in my opinion shares the presumption of privacy with this issue. I wonder whether the test should be something more like "a substantial active role in the event". We would still differ on the definition of "substantial" (and maybe there's a better adjective) but we would clearly exclude the vast majority of names of victims, who had no active role. Trying to hide and running away are not active roles. Staying behind to hold a door open for fleeing students is borderline in my opinion. Physically attacking the shooter would be a substantial active role. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:51, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is an ongoing and continuous bone of contention. I feel that although the inclusion of non notables can be discussed on a case by case basis on article talk pages the default position should be no non notables unless agreed by consensus, ie the burden for inclusion should always fall on the proposer, with no squatters rights. Therefore I would support Generally victims should not be mentioned by name unless they were otherwise notable or had significant and substantial involvement in the incident (beyond being a victim). If challenged consensus must be established to include Lyndaship (talk) 10:01, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
as opposed to a non-continuous bone of contention? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:08, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
LOL ok. I suppose I could argue there have been breaks? Lyndaship (talk) 16:31, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have a feeling that while I would support this, we need to have a guidance page of how to handle naming victims of a crime/event when you omit the list (too much to cover in an policy page). --Masem (t) 17:16, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Pigsonthewing and Iridescent: and Lyndaship, if you actually agree with the principle, or the basic initiative here, then why 'oppose'? How about 'support with a condition (or caveat)? Or post a "neutral" !vote (unfortunately there wasn't a 'neutral' section, that's been rectified). It would be unfortunate if this died because of a perceived consensus to oppose when really some of you actually support, but just want some kind of minor wording change. - wolf 10:23, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I had supported the proposal Lyndaship (talk) 10:52, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Lyndaship: Yup, I see that now. Sorry about that, I don't how your name got added there, other than I was trying to do too much in a single edit and goofed up. Mea culpa, ambo te ignosce me. - wolf 15:51, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • For the reason I gave in my !vote. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:49, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Eli355:, can you clarify your position on here? The very brief wording of your "oppose" give the impression you might actually 'support' this proposal. Thanks - wolf 10:23, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Thewolfchild: People should be included in these lists if there is some reference for them. —Eli355 (talk • contribs) 00:58, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Eli355: Uh, yeah... I saw that the first time you posted it. Like Mandruss pointed out above, we only know about names if there listed in a source. That's the point of this proposal, that shouldn't be the only basis for entry to an article. There should be a more encyclopedic reason. Do you understand that? - wolf 06:36, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • "that shouldn't be the only basis for entry to an article" That is correct, thewolfchild. Verifiability is not sufficient for inclusion. WP:VNOTSUFF: "While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article." But should we be deciding whether or not to include this information at the Village pump? Or should we be deciding this at individual article Talk pages? Bus stop (talk) 16:33, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
          • Seriously... not even reading your posts anymore. - wolf 19:17, 9 December 2018 (UTC).[reply]
            • @Thewolfchild and Bus stop: Whether the victims names should be included in the article should depend on the number of victims. If an event kills a few people, all of them should be listed, but if an event kills thousands of people, than only the more notable people should be included. —Eli355 (talk • contribs) 20:51, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
              • @Eli355: You made a rather vague a comment about names being added if there is a reference for them, you're asked to clarify it, and in response you make an equally vague comment about names being added based on numbers? Can you provide a more substantive reply to support your position on this issue? Thanks - wolf 21:15, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
                • thewolfchild—I made the same point that Eli355 is making when I said to you "My opinion is that victim identities belong in articles on disasters where practicable." It is practicable to add a small number of victims; it is impracticable to add a large number of victims. We also know that policy states: "While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted."[4] Therefore without this proposal being passed the victim names can be omitted. Bus stop (talk) 22:45, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • This discussion started on WP:VPIL where back on 30 Novemebr I posted "Short numbers of names (as proposed by Herostratus above take up a handful of bytes and don't seem too out of place (users read articles, not policies). For longer lists why not simply create a page "List of victims of XYZ" and hat-note to it?". Whether that opinion is right or wrong, it is depressing that nearly three weeks later exactly the same point is being vehemently argued over. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 23:19, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay... Eli, whether this is deliberate bullshit or just a WP:CIR issue, either way I don't care. I don't want you to clarify your opinion as I'm no longer interested in it. Have a nice day. - wolf 04:36, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Bus stop, Knowledgekid87, and Graeme Bartlett: - each of you had stated in some form that this should be handled on individual talk pages, but one of the reasons why we're here is because that approach has failed over and over again, for years. And even in the odd cases where there was an agreement on particular article talk pages, that has just led to conflicting local consensuses, which in turn leads to wp:ose arguments in this project-wide dispute that has carried on for years without resolution. That is why we need a project-wide policy/guideline to (hopefully and finally) help settle this once and for all. (or for the most part, for awhile, at least). - wolf 10:23, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
thewolfchild—this is not a question that should be addressed on a community-wide basis. My opinion is that victim identities belong in articles on disasters where practicable. Any time you come up with a one-size-fits-all solution you run the risk of deadening the creative abilities of editors that are champing at the bit to write better articles. Why not just let editors write articles and engage in debate as needed? There shouldn't be a "default" position on something that does not have a consistent identity across all articles, namely "victim lists". And by the way, I do not distinguish between "lists" and "prose" as concerns the mention of victims in articles on disasters. Whichever form fits the specifics of that particular article at that particular stage in its development should be used. And if WP:CONSENSUS is to omit the names—that's OK too. The interested editors are not the same at the article in question as the editors weighing in here. Why devise nonsensical policy here to tie the hands of editors at the articles that will inevitably be affected? Bus stop (talk) 15:44, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes... BS, we're all well aware of your opinions on this, but you've adding nothing new here with your latest repeat posting of them. (Question, why all the wiktionary links? And, despite using said link, how does one still manage to misspell the word they're actually linking to said dictionary?)
Anyway, you made some grossly misleading comments here. Should this proposal be added to WP policy, in no way will it "deaden the creative abilities of editors that are champing at the bit to write better articles.".
First of all, adding obituary-type lists of meaningless, non-notable names of mass-death-event victims, does not make for "better articles". Second, no one's "hands are going to be tied". If at some point, some editor has a burning need to add an obituary-type list of meaningless, non-notable names of mass-death-event victims to some article, they can always come here and seek a community-wide consensus to change the policy. If the need to add said list is that great, and it will make said article that much better, then I'm sure the community will see that and support said editor.
As for editors who are not currently here to take part in this process, that just sounds like you're trying to create some kind of pre-emptive excuse. This forum is open to everyone. This subject has been discussed on numerous pages, for months, from the USS Fitzgerald and MV ACX Crystal collision talk page, to numerous other article, project and AfD discussion pages, leading to the idea lab and finally here. If these editors that you apparently don't know, and yet you're so concerned about them missing out on this proposal do in fact miss out... oh well. Can't expect everybody to be everywhere, everytime. - wolf 18:14, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
thewolfchild—here is a good explanation of "champing" vs. "chomping". From your aloof perch here at the Village pump you are in no position to dictate to editors whether they should include or omit names and other brief pieces of information on non-notable individual fatalities resulting from an article's topic. This is an instance of Wikipedia trying to shoot itself in the foot. You've yet to tell us why we should not speak of non-notable decedents. Bus stop (talk) 19:10, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"thewolfchild — here is a good explanation of "champing" vs. "chomping". Bus stop 19:10, 3 December 2018 (UTC)"
  1. Erm, BS... surely you realize that was a rhetorical question? (as this one is)
  2. You clearly missed the point of that question.
  3. I am already familiar with the expression.
  4. I am already aware of the alternative spellings.
  5. I have no idea why you think I would be interested in any further reading or discussion about this expression, it's meaning, or it's alternative spellings.
  6. I take it you're aware that your comment is both meaningless, and completely off-topic.
  7. I take it that by posting such a meaningless and completely off-topic comment, you are declaring you have nothing new or meaningful to add to the topic being discussed?
  8. Oops, nevermind. I see that while I was typing out my reply, you have since added more to your comment. While your remarks are somewhat snarly and accusatory, I suppose it could be considered "on-topic" (saving your initial comment (quoted above) from being deleted). I'm not on a "perch", I behind a keyboard, just like you, and you seem to have a bizarre definition of "aloof", (here, happy to help out).
I am not "dictating" anything. I'm taking part in a straw-poll and discussion regarding a policy proposal, just like you. (though I'm just being nicer than you are) If I'm not "in a position to dictate to others" that they can't include names... how is it that you seem to think you are "in a position to dictate to others" that they can't omit names?
"This is an instance of Wikipedia trying to shoot itself in the foot." - Umm... ok. Maybe you should take that up with Wikipedia. (I, otoh, am not trying to shoot anything)
"You've yet to tell us why we should not speak of non-notable decedents." - You've yet to explain how adding a list of non-notable names, of mass-death-event victims, who played no role in the event, except for dying, with no meaning to anyone except perhaps for family & friends, will in any way lend to the reader's understanding of the event. If 10 non-notable people died, what more is needed, than to state that 10 people died? Relevant, supporting information such as how they died, when they died (immediately vs later in hospital, etc. notwithstanding, how does adding a list of names add anything remotely encyclopaedic to the article? What insight can that possibly provide to the reader?
Now, this is the part where you don't actually answer questions, you counter them, with a revolving repertoire of circular logic, IDHT & IDLI tautological arguments, off-topic rants, and demands for answers that have already been provided to you, multiple times by multiple editors. Then lather, rinse, repeat... do the whole thing all over again with whoever is willing to respond to you.
As I said earlier, we are all well aware of your opinion on this. Unless you have anything new to add, (about the topic, not me, not some idiom, not about some pair of neat-o shoes you saw at the mall... ), then please stop pinging me. Thank you. - wolf 21:12, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
thewolfchild—you say "how is it that you seem to think you are in a position to dictate to others that they can't omit names?" I didn't say we "can't omit names". I said "if WP:CONSENSUS is to omit the names—that's OK too." And I said that there shouldn't be a default on this. Let the editors decide on the article Talk pages. And I don't recall referring to some pair of neat-o shoes I saw at the mall. And if you scroll up you will see that you pinged me before I pinged you and you have pinged me a total of two times. Have I pinged you more than 2 times? Maybe, for which I apologize. Bus stop (talk) 22:00, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Question for Jayron32: The section heading says you want to put this text in the guideline WP:LISTPEOPLE. The proposal says that you want to put this in the policy WP:IINFO. Can you pick one or the other, and fix the proposal? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:39, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hydronium Hydroxide—you are mentioning Trinity (nuclear test). There were no fatalities in that event and it took place in 1945. You are sort of comparing apples to oranges, aren't you? How does "Trinity (nuclear test)" compare to Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, Pittsburgh synagogue shooting, Orlando nightclub shooting, Santa Fe High School shooting, Charleston church shooting—to name just a few of our articles in which non-notable victims are mentioned? Why would a decision at "Village pump (policy)" overrule the WP:CONSENSUS of the editors that wrote those articles? I thought WP:CONSENSUS was sort of sacrosanct. Bus stop (talk) 02:58, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bus stop: Participants-in-an-event-that-is-tragic and Participants-in-an-event-that-is-not-tragic are both Participants-in-an-event and (from my perspective) should be treated similarly with regards to standards of determination for inclusion in an article; the comparison is of Red delicious apples vs Granny Smith apples. Trinity (nuclear test) is of significantly more impact than any of those events, and led to far more deaths -- thankfully individually unlisted in en-wiki. Non-notable participants (presumably since they are unlinked) are included within that article, but it includes neither indiscriminate lists of those actually involved in the conduct of the test, nor all those who witnessed (part of) it, nor all those present, nor any other indiscriminate list. I'm a little surprised by your final two questions, as you are an editor of so many years experience: Global consensus, where determined, trumps local consensus. If it didn't, then RFCs, AFDs, reasonable adherence to MOS, etc, wouldn't be able to be implemented. This proposal is an attempt to get global consensus on an area where the process of obtaining consensus on a page-by-page basis is deemed by some to be duplicative. Consensus for global consistency and consensus for page-by-page inconsistency may well both lead to groups of unhappy editors, but living with an imperfect standard appears to eat less editor/admin time than page-by-page debates. I understand, for instance, that we're on Infobox Wars part 167 and Cite Wars part 183, though the significant difference is that those are both stylistic preferences, whereas this intersects with actual content policies and guidelines. ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 05:01, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hydronium Hydroxide—a global consensus in this instance would be running roughshod over a clearly established consensus spread over many articles. We are not talking about 1945. Though unstated, I think we are discussing a more recent period. I listed Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, Pittsburgh synagogue shooting, Orlando nightclub shooting, Santa Fe High School shooting, Charleston church shooting in my post above. Add to those 2016 Oakland warehouse fire and Columbine High School massacre. Please search the Talk page archives on those articles for the term "victims". Debates took place and a consensus was reached to include the victim names. We shouldn't be enacting policy to curtail the inclusion of victim names because the more broad-based consensus favors the inclusion of victim names. Bus stop (talk) 16:27, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t disagree... However, we also need to keep in mind that “consensus can change”. It isn’t wrong to occasionally ask whether a previously established consensus is still reflecting what the community thinks. Blueboar (talk) 16:49, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Bus stop You are being selective by only mentioning articles which have formed a consensus to include. Can I remind you on Talk:USS Fitzgerald and MV ACX Crystal collision the vote is 11 to 5 AGAINST inclusion. I do not understand why you cannot support my suggestion that the issue should be decided on individual article talk pages through consensus but the default position should be no names until that consensus is established. Given the consensus to include (albeit by some very small margins) reached on the articles you have quoted why do you doubt the ability of your fellow editors to come to the correct decision Lyndaship (talk) 16:51, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am definitely being "selective", Lyndaship. I am trying to prove a point. And you are trying to prove a point. Therefore you mention the Fitzgerald/Crystal collision article. I can name one more to support your point: Thousand Oaks shooting. Consensus there was to omit. But in the majority of instances consensus has been in favor of inclusion. My evidence is merely anecdotal. I admit that. But another point has to be made: there is no reason the same conclusion has to be reached at all articles. This is not unlike the construction of all articles as concerns the inclusion of content. These are editorial decisions left to editorial discretion. I don't think victim names are all that different from a variety of other pieces of information. I happen to favor the inclusion of the names of fatalities resulting from notable incidents. I think this helps to write a complete article. And I find the deliberate omission of this information to be an uncalled-for truncating of the article. But it is not such a terrible thing if in some instances editors decide by means of our consensus-reaching process to omit these names.

Blueboar—this discussion is not "reflecting what the community thinks". The truest reflection of what the community thinks is seen in consensus at individual articles at which this question has had an airing-out. Bus stop (talk) 17:40, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Below is a partial (?) and non-chronological list of this years' other discussions that deal with listing non-notable people. Anyone is welcome to add ones I've missed. ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 12:41, 17 December 2018 (UTC):[reply]
  • It is plainly obvious that in the vast majority of instances consensus supports the inclusion in the article of all the victim names whether notable or not. Please see below. Bus stop (talk) 01:31, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Its plainly obvious that most of these all American shooting and fairly recent events and hardly reflect the range of articles that potential could have lists of non-notable vicitims. In particularly these type of recent events have a high readership from those interested in these news type events so they expect to see victim names as if this was a newspaper which can slew the voting. So these recent events are not really a reflection on the thousands of articles about tragic events that dont or have never included names of non notable victims. MilborneOne (talk) 08:38, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It is also plainly obvious that the more gut-wrenchingly awful the event, the more likely the event is to acquire a victim list. I would not be human if I did not sympathise with such a response (Dunblane massacre involved infants and is one of the few UK events listed above) - but is the awfulness of the event really a valid criteria for inclusion/exclusion of names? Because this is what actually happens when 'case by case' is the only guideline (no one has ever articulated how the names serve any useful encyc pupose - the intention, and effect is to 'honour' the victim, by individualising them, which may be an understandable wish, but isn't our mission IMO). Pincrete (talk) 12:33, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many people use NOTMEMORIAL to argue against inclusion of names. As some editors have explained, NotMem does not apply to the individuated contents of an article; it applies to the subject matter of the entire article. (Probably for another full discussion: the NotMem text should be revised to make explicitly clear that it refers to a full article, not to just some of its content.) Properly read, NotMem is not a valid argument for excluding victim names from an article about a crime or calamity. I ask: why do mainstream news sources include names? The answer is because they want to provide comprehensive information. Though Wikipedia is NotANewspaper, it shares that goal: to be comprehensive (but not Indiscriminate or Trivial). As the NY Times is said to be the newspaper "of record," Wikipedia is--or should be--the encyclopedia of record. Having said that, I recognize it may be impractical to include names if the list is very long. A decision can be made at the article Talk page. In the interest of encyclopedic coverage, I believe we should not enact a policy or guideline that attempts to make exclusion of names the default choice. I would flip this proposal on its head (or perhaps, sideways) and say we should add an instruction at WP:Victim or WP:Listpeople to say: "Wikipedia does not encourage or discourage inclusion of names of victims in articles about a crime or calamity. Decisions about the encyclopedic value of such names may be made on Talk pages of articles." Such instruction might or might not reduce chronic debates about this issue, but it could prevent the encyclopedia from working against itself as authoritative and as the place at or near the top of people's choices for information of interest to them. DonFB (talk) 14:49, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Even the below represents only a small fraction of the number of articles mentioning identifying information pertaining to fatalities including name. This list, I believe, could be expanded many times over. The conclusion that I reach is that inclusion of such information is standard practice. I am posting this despite the fact that it takes up so much room because I don't think many participants in this discussion appreciate just how widespread the practice is. We generally allude in one form or another to deceased individuals. It is hard to say whether this is "memorialization" or not. I strongly believe it is relevant to an article. But in some instances editorial consensus is to omit identifying information for decedents. But the point is that in most instances such information is included. Bus stop (talk) 14:04, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I only looked at a handful of the articles below (mainly UK IRA events), but in no case was there a bare list - including names in prose, where the individual had a significant role in the event is precisely what is proposed. In many/most cases that I looked from this list, this is what has already happened. Pincrete (talk) 20:27, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Standard practice is for inclusion. In the vast majority of the articles that I've looked at, some degree of allusion is made to the identities of the deceased. I have not made a distinction between list and prose as concerns this discussion. I don't consider one preferable to the other. As concerns depth of identity of decedents, I have encountered a wide range—from just the name to more extensive background information. In a small number of the articles I've looked at, the identities of the deceased are absent entirely from the article. Those sorts of articles are not included in the list below. I am at this moment adding a considerable number of articles to the below list. I hope I haven't added any articles twice, and I apologize if I have. Bus stop (talk) 14:16, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems simple to me. JUST FOLLOW THE CITES. If most sources list the victims then WP should. If most sources do not then WP should not. Do not OR up a list, do not add prose that is UNDUE or OR. Just follow whatever the sources do and how they do it. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:25, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I used to be strongly against memorializing the victims in these sorts of articles, but I have come around to an abide-by-the-consensus-of-secondary-sources position, with an important caveat that the sources be in English. One should be careful to avoid sources that are biased or are attempting to gain political victimhood for an ethnic group. Abductive (reasoning) 05:18, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would concern me that if we allow listing of non-noteworthy victims then we would have a lot of work in hand as some maritime disasters would need in some cases 1000 or more names to be added all of which are available in reliable sources, or is this one rule for recent and particularly American events but doesnt apply to ones outside of memory. It would be good to list the millions of victims of tragic events particularly in wartime but why should they be treated differently to an American school shooting with ten vicitms. MilborneOne (talk) 13:44, 25 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's a good point about accessibility. Where there is an easily accessible list on line (which is likely to remain accessible) then lengthy lists would seem to be a waste of time. In some cases however the list of names many not be available on line and therefore as the world's principal "go-to" reference we should consider including them. It doesn't need to be mandatory, but perhaps the deletionists might allow lists to remain, particularly if they were stand-alone lists which did not dominate the main article. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:37, 25 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) MilborneOne—you say "It would concern me that if we allow listing of non-noteworthy victims then we would have a lot of work in hand". Wouldn't we have a lot of work in hand rewriting the hundreds of articles that presently include all victim names? In my estimation 90% of the articles I've encountered include all victim names.

You didn't mention "memorialization" but let me point out that the information on victims is severely limited therefore it may not constitute memorialization. At most we find name, age, role-in-life, such as cop, teacher, student, and maybe home-town. Bus stop (talk) 16:20, 25 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly not looking at the same set of articles as me as very for example maritime tragic events do not have lists of victims (an those like Titanic that do are subject to some bickering), loads of other examples. We dont list the 2,259 victims of the Bhopal disaster as one example or the 1012 victims of the RMS Empress of Ireland. MilborneOne (talk) 17:33, 25 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that where practicable our standard practice is to list all victims both notable and non-notable. A large number of victims presents a case where it is impractical to list all victims. You may be right that maritime events may show a lower incidence of inclusion of victims. I haven't looked at those sorts of articles in great numbers so I just don't know. Editors have by-and-large been exercising good judgement over the years, judging by the articles I have looked at. "Bickering" is not a good enough reason for enacting new policy. "Bickering" goes on in many places on the encyclopedia. What we want are good articles. In my opinion it is unlikely that we can enact policy that has the twin effect of reducing bickering and producing the best possible articles because collaborative editing inevitably involves dissension and disagreement. Talk pages properly used result in good articles where a high degree of collaboration is involved, that is, when a lot of editors are involved in the writing of one article. Bus stop (talk) 17:58, 25 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
By extension of the reasoning in your first paragraph, this encyclopedia should never have been started because it was too much work. Even if your dubious 90% were 100%, we are allowed to decide to change the encyclopedia's direction without "appeal to status quo" like that. Wikipedia is a work in progress. (Of course my comment applies to any argument about amount of work, including MilborneOne's if that's what they meant. Amount of work should be extremely low on our priority list, on any issue.) ―Mandruss ☎ 16:32, 25 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Mandruss—was the editorial judgement that went into the writing of all of the articles containing victim names somehow flawed? As FOARP has perceptively said "The people who will vote here will be a vanishingly small sub-set of editors."

If you feel that my "90%" figure is "dubious" I am willing to stand corrected. I have taken the time to pore through many articles that seem to fit the criteria that would make them candidates for this discussion. And I have listed those that support my position. It is true that I did not list the articles that might support your position. I can do little more than state in complete honesty that my crude impression is that 90% of the articles I looked at included all victim names. And it is not only the percentage that matters to the discussion we are having. It is also the total number of articles involved—it is a huge number of articles. I think the list of articles could be expanded several times. I have not attempted to do so because I'm not nuts. Bus stop (talk) 16:56, 25 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I see above it has been said that no rationale has been provided for including the list of victims. Put simply the rationale for including a list of victims is 1) it is a relevant fact about the incident, equally as relevant as the number of victims, we know that it is relevant because reliable sources treat it as such. 2) It aids with the understanding of the incident - consider how you might actually describe what happened in this incident without using the names of the victims: you would be left saying "his first victim was killed doing X, then his second victim was killed doing Y", and the reader would be easily confused as to which victim was being referred to if they were only described as numbers.
  • WP:NOTMEMORIAL has been raised above, but people really need to read what that policy says. It says: "Memorials. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements. Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others who do not meet such requirements." (emphasis added). It is clear that NOTMEMORIAL is about the subject of the article being notable, and not a ban on lists of people who died in any particular incident. Where the article is about a notable event NOTMEMORIAL falls by the wayside. FOARP (talk) 23:08, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair not memorial is used as it reflects the views of some users that the only reason we would be adding lists of hundreds or in some cases it could be thousands in one article of not noteworthy individuals would be to memorialise them, so far not other valid reason has been raised why a simple link to an external source is not good enough. So yes the policy may not apply but the spirit does. MilborneOne (talk) 13:29, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There really aren't articles containing hundreds of victims, at least not to my knowledge. You are talking about the spirit of WP:MEMORIAL. The spirit of WP:MEMORIAL is that we don't create articles on non-notable individuals. I would say that the application of WP:MEMORIAL to this discussion is a misapplication of policy. We can give the benefit of the doubt and say that the reference is to the dictionary definition of memorialization. But the limited amount of information we are providing shows this is not the case. True memorialization involves more extensive information than name, rank, and number. True memorialization involves the presentation of vignettes from the deceased person's life that tug at the heartstrings with their poignancy. We do not indulge in that sort of thing. The sole purpose of our editors is an informational purpose. This is part of explicating a subject. Can you point to an article engaging in sentimentality in the presentation of the identities of fatalities? Bus stop (talk) 16:25, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, this appears to be a big misunderstanding on the part of the people in support of this proposition. We are not naming/listing those killed out of sentiment. We are doing so because - particularly in the context of terrorist attacks and mass shootings - it is an important part of describing what happened AND it's information that reliable sources treat as important. FOARP (talk) 21:12, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Break (victims)

Except that in most cases, the bombers/shooters/etc don't really care about who dies. The point is to attack "location X", who exactly is at location X doen't figure into it. If an individual is specifically targeted (if the shooter says "I'm gonna kill you Mitchell!) then that person should be named. If a specific group of unnamed individuals is targeted (say, if the shooter says "all you cheerleaders are bitches who deserve to die") we should state that he targeted that group - without specifically saying that Brittany, Megan, and Rebecca were killed. Absent something like that we should just identify what the general group or location targeted was. For example, "the perpetrator rammed his car into a crowd outside the theater, killing 17" or "the bomb was placed in Monomonee Falls High School, the explosion killed 4 teachers and 9 students" or "the shooter fired into his place of employment, killing 12 people". List people who were explicit targets but not those who are basically collateral damage. --Khajidha (talk) 22:43, 28 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
When a psychopathic murder kills John Smith first, then John Doe, then Jane Smith, then Jane Doe, and reliable sources state that this is what happened, then we should say exactly that in our article because that is exactly what happened. To advocate anything else is to advocate making this encyclopedia less accurate without good reason, and to ignore what the reliable sources themselves state was important about the event. It doesn't matter what format this is stated in. FOARP (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There's a difference between specifically killing John Smith, John Doe, Jane Smith, and Jane Doe and going on a random spree that just happens to end in those people's deaths. In the first, the names are relevant, in the second they aren't. --Khajidha (talk) 19:13, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You're saying we should first determine the intent of the killer before writing the article. Intent is something that the police, prosecutors, and courts themselves struggle mightily to determine and often get wrong. It clearly is relevant to discuss who was killed when in an article about a massacre or a serial killer since the murderer is progressing from one victim to the next. Indicating victims by numbers or letters ("Victim 1", "Person A"), rather than by their names - something we would have to do if we were not allowed to name victims - is a form of editorialising and requires us to ignore something that reliable sources find important (the identities of the victims).
I find the problem in these discussion is that they are divorced from the reality of the actual subject matter of the actual articles that are discussing. It is useful, then, to consider concrete cases. Please tell me, therefore, how would you describe this incident without naming the victims? FOARP (talk) 10:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Dunlap entered the restaurant at 9:00 p.m., where he ordered a ham and cheese sandwich and played an arcade game. He then hid in a restroom at about 9:50 p.m. He exited the restroom after closing at 10:05 p.m. and shot five employees with a .25-caliber semiautomatic pistol.

The first victim was shot while cleaning the salad bar. She was hit from close range in the right ear and was mortally wounded. Another victim was fatally shot near the left eye as he was vacuuming. A third pleaded for her life and sunk to her knees, but Dunlap fatally shot her once through the top of her head. Bobby Stephens, 20, the lone survivor of the shooting, returned to the restaurant after taking a break by smoking outside, thinking the noise he heard from the restaurant when he was outside were children popping balloons nearby.

As he walked into the restaurant and unloaded utensils into the dishwasher, Dunlap came through the kitchen door, raised the handgun at him, and fired a shot that struck Stephens in the jaw. He then fell to the floor and played dead. Dunlap then forced the store manager to unlock the safe. After she opened it, Dunlap shot her in the ear. As he was taking the cash out of the safe, Dunlap fired a second fatal shot through her other ear after he noticed she was still moving.[2] The manager who fired Dunlap was not present at the restaurant.

Stephens escaped through a back door and walked to the nearby Mill Pond apartment complex, where he pounded on a door to alert someone that he and others had been shot at the Chuck E. Cheese. Stephens was hospitalized at Denver General Hospital in fair condition. As authorities arrived on the scene, they found two bodies in the restaurant's hallway, a third in a room off the hallway, and the fourth in the manager's office. The initial victim was sent to Denver General Hospital, where she was declared brain dead.[2] She died from her injuries the next day at Aurora Regional Medical Center.[3]

Dunlap fled the scene with $1,500 worth of cash and game tokens he stole from inside the restaurant. Dunlap was arrested at his mother's apartment twelve hours later.[ " --Khajidha (talk) 16:16, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Khajidha—we are here to provide information. Reliable sources exist to provide information also. It is not that everything that is reliably sourced must be in an article, but the determining factor as to whether to include something or not is the consensus reached at an individual article. I don't think blanket rules are arrived at, at the Village pump as to whether or not to name fatalities. This is a decision that is best made at an individual article. If we arrive at a "blanket rule" here, the consequence will be the tying of the hands of individual editors for no good reason. Dialogue is essential to reaching the correct conclusions on issues of disagreement, but with the existence of a "blanket rule", dialogue would effectively be suppressed. The sort of reasoning you are presenting—that non-targeted victims should not be mentioned—could be presented by you or any other editor on an individual article's Talk page. Other editors may agree with you and others may disagree with you. No doubt other editors will raise additional factors that they feel should be taken into consideration. But that dialogue is eliminated when you devise "blanket rules" that do not serve serious purposes. What is the important principle at stake here? There is no important principle at stake here. We are discussing facts that are clearly within the scope of the article. Whether or not to include them is an editorial decision. Dialogue is essential to reaching the right decision on whether to include or omit. Bus stop (talk) 15:28, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The good reason is that these names are unencyclopedic. --Khajidha (talk) 16:16, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You're not defining "unencyclopedic". This is reliably sourced information that is within the scope of the article. I understand that we do not include all reliably sourced information, even if it is within an scope of the article. But what is the big deal with this information that would suggest that we should enact new policy to curtail its inclusion in articles? We use Talk pages to resolve all sorts of disagreements all the time. Would you argue that we cannot use the Talk pages of individual articles to resolve questions like this?

Khajidha—the version you wrote for "1993 Aurora shooting" is fine—if editors agree with you. Which editors? The editors at the Village pump? No—the editors at "1993 Aurora shooting". That is where consensus should be formed because that is where that specific article is being discussed. Bus stop (talk) 16:38, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Precisely. Let's look at what an article rewritten to this standard looks like: "The first victim was shot while cleaning the salad bar. She was hit from close range in the right ear and was mortally wounded." So, the gender of the victim is important, the fact they were standing next to the salad bar when shot is important, the fact they were shot in the right ear is important - but who they actually were is not relevant information to include? Instead identifying them by the order in which they were killed - which may not always be clear? — Preceding unsigned comment added by FOARP (talk • contribs) 17:35, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I'd be fine with even less detail.--Khajidha (talk) 18:43, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This thread is missing the point: This is not a proposal to prohibit naming victims entirely, in fact it specifically states Victims of crimes and disasters and other tragic events may be named as a normal part of a quality prose narrative. Narratives like this one would still stand. As an aside, my personal opinion is that 1993 Aurora shooting is far too detailed. The description was pulled from an exhaustive court transcript, while other sources simply say that he shot the victims in the head and one survivor escaped through the back door. –dlthewave ☎ 19:08, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Dlthewave—it doesn't matter if victims are listed in prose form or list form. OK, it matters, but it matters to those writing the article. They are in the best position to decide on one form or the other. More than one of the sources already in the "1993 Aurora shooting" article include the names of all of the fatalities. It is up to the editors at an article, after weighing all of the applicable factors, to decide whether to use "prose" or "lists". Neither way is preferable to the other in a general sense. These are alternative ways of presenting information. We should not be trying to come up with a formula at the Village pump for articles that have a particular array of applicable factors known best by those trying to write those articles. I should also add that omitting the names of the fatalities is also acceptable. In a minority of articles it was decided to omit the names of the fatalities. These should be considered decisions best left to editorial discretion. Those working on the article are the best ones to make these decisions. Bus stop (talk) 20:49, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As I said in my comment further up the chain "It doesn't matter what format this is stated in". I am aware that the proposal makes a distinction between prose and tables, but there is no basis for limiting the editor's choices as to how to describe an event in this fashion. FOARP (talk) 21:51, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC on capitalization of the names of standardized breeds

Amended MOS per RfC on 06:29, 27 January 2019 (UTC). --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 06:29, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The consensus is to retain the current capitalization for the titling of standardized breeds on Wikipedia. While the supporters for a lowercase standard do make valid points regarding Wikipedia's MOS alignment towards less stylization (including capitalization), but in actuality references and standards are either confused or a counter-point. Policy is dictated by the community, not the other way around and general consensus is to retain the current standard of capitalization. There is no specific consensus regarding what standardized breeds constitute and should be clarified in a separate RfC in the future. Furthermore, editors must keep in mind that inconsistencies will occur on any guideline and should exercise discretion with respect to edits which might be seen applicable to this policy. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 14:20, 26 January 2019 (UTC)--Updated. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 18:26, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the names of standardized breeds of domesticated animals be capitalized on Wikipedia, to match the published breed standards? They presently are, with near uniformity, and the practice is almost universally followed in breeds-specific writing, but notably less often in more general writing (except where a breed name is or contains a proper name like "Ennstal Mountain" or "Siamese").

I've been neutral on the question for several years (though arguing at WP:RM to follow a particular pattern in the interim, for WP:CONSISTENCY policy reasons). I have collected every single pro or con argument I've encountered on this question, at WP:BREEDCASE, immediately below which is an index of previous discussions. This may be worth a skim before you respond to this RfC. My interest in seeing the question answered by clear community consensus is to close the gaping hole in MOS:LIFE (it needs to either state that standardized breeds are an exception, or that they are not), and to complete the MOS:ORGANISMS in-depth guideline, which has been stuck in draft state for over six years due to this one question not being resolved (though it is followed aside from the breeds question).
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:41, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Background

  • The MOS:LIFE guideline has us lower-case all names of generic groupings of animals and plants (including landraces, dog and horse "types", feral populations, breed groups, show/competition classes, and some other things sometimes called "breeds" in the broadest sense of that word). Standardized breeds – a very narrow sense – were left out of MOS:LIFE on purpose, as a point of contention to be settled later. Later has now arrived, overdue.
  • An RfC (WP:BIRDCON, one of Wikipedia's longest ever, and following about eight years of constant dispute) concluded in 2014 to lower-case the vernacular names of species ("Collared Dove" and "Mountain Lion" to "collared dove" and "mountain lion"). But standardized breeds are distinguishable from them on a number of bases, and need to be considered separately.
  • Cultivars, the plant equivalent of standardized breeds, are capitalized but are subject to a formal, international convention that makes them part of the scientific name, whereas zoology recognizes no infraspecific taxa below "subspecies". And not every vernacular term for a cultivar is capitalized (botanists do not write "Broccoli Rabé"), only those registered with ICNCP, plus any trademarked trade designations. So, cultivars are not some "automatic answer" either.

Potential consequences:

  • This RfC would have no effect on anything that is not a standardized breed of domesticated animal (a breed with a published breed standard from a reputable organization). In particular, it can't affect whether an alleged breed is less or more easily able to pass WP:GNG; it's about nothing but a very narrow orthographical matter in Wikipedia's own text. It would have no effect on cultivars, on landraces and other domesticated-animal groupings, historical animal populations, or non-domesticated animals (there's no such thing as a "breed" of wild animal).
  • Continuing with them capitalized would essentially change nothing, other than forestall some future arguments, and codify a particular variance from a more general style rule. There is some potential for "If this can have an exception, so can [insert my personal peccadillo here]" disputation, but MoS codifies many exceptions for many things, and it generally hasn't been much of a problem when the exceptions were not arbitrary and did serve reader-facing purposes (variances that did not have not survived).
  • De-capitalizing these names as a general class would require a non-trivial amount of research into which ones are or contain proper names or adjectives derived from them (not always obvious, especially for breeds with names from non-Western languages), a series of mass-move RMs, quite a lot of copyediting over time, and (as with the lower-casing of species common names) increased care in writing to avoid ambiguity. But we're collectively good at these things already.

 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:41, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Retain capitalization

  • Support.Seems sensible. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:46, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, at least for the most part: I'm basically saying that the status quo should pretty much stay as it is. Before commenting here, I read all of the background information, and I want to thank SMcCandlish for such thorough explanation. I'm finding it difficult to conceptualize a generalized rule of thumb that satisfies me. Obviously, for Genus species, we capitalize the genus and generally do not capitalize the species. For garden plants, I think it's Rosa filipes 'Kiftsgate' and Brassica oleracea 'Calabrese', with cultivar names capitalized, which I think should remain standard, but hybrid tea rose, cherry tomato, and 'Big Boy' tomato, for categories of cultivated plants. For domestic animal breeds, German Shepherd dog, without capitalizing "dog", looks right (and that may be a change), and that's consistent with 'Big Boy' tomato. For aquarium fish, pearlscale goldfish and flowerhorn cichlid 'Golden Monkey' correction: flowerhorn cichlid Golden Monkey. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:03, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • "German Shepherd dog" would be right, under this orthographic system, unless capitalized "Dog" is included in the breed's formal, published name in the breed standard because it's intolerably ambiguous without it. There are only a few cases of that, such as the American Quarter Horse ("American Quarter" would be mistaken for a coin), and the Norwegian Forest Cat ("Norwegian Forest" would imply not a purring critter but a Scandinavian woodland). The vast majority of breeds simply have names like Siamese, Argentine Criollo, American Buff, etc., with "cat", "horse", or "goose" only tacked on when necessary as natural disambiguation. Actual breeders do that, and WP does as well, following a years-long series of WP:RM discussions (catalogued at WP:BREEDDAB). PS: If aquarium fish breeders have picked up the 'Foo' convention from horticulture, I have to note that this hasn't spread further (no one writes "Canis lupus familiaris 'Golden Retriever'", or "dog 'Golden Retriever'").  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:14, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks for those clarifications, which make sense to me. (And thanks for taking a close look at Flowerhorn cichlid.) About aquarium fish, I put it that way just above because it looks right to me. (There are very few editors who work routinely on those pages.) But if I think about websites that sell or discuss aquarium fish, I can't say that I actually see the single quote marks ('Golden Monkey' as opposed to Golden Monkey), nor any really consistent pattern of usage. The one area where I'm aware of some organized and scholarly attention to nomenclature is with respect to guppies. I've never paid much attention to guppies, but I'll look into it and let editors here know what I find. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:12, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • I looked into that information about guppies: [5], [6]. Definitely no 'single quote' marks, about which I was incorrect. Although there is some within-source inconsistency, it ends up as Poecilia reticulata, fancy guppies, snakeskin guppies (lowercase for a group containing multiple strains), and Yellow Mosaic Snakeskin guppy (for a specific strain). --Tryptofish (talk) 01:12, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • That's about what I would have expected, following the same pattern as better-written material (i.e. not "capitalize all our jargon just to make to it look special and important") on livestock and mammalian pet breeds.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:00, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, generally. Without capitalization, "thoroughbred" is widely used as a synonym for purebred, and has a host of other connotations. Capitalized, it unambiguously refers to the breed of horses. I imagine there are many other such instances. Jlvsclrk (talk) 23:35, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The section on the culivars in background above suggests a solution. It says "only those registered with ICNCP, plus any trademarked trade designations" are capitalised. A similar rationale would support capitalisation of the breeds that are registered with the bodies that standardise the breeds.   Jts1882 | talk  11:35, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jts1882: the problem here is that the ICNCP says that for every kind of cultivated plant there will be one registrar, who then determines the definitive list of cultivars of that kind of plant. But there's no one organization that says who is the registrar for, say, dogs. So there are different national bodies that have, at least historically, failed to agree. So if we agree to the proposal, we will need to make clear exactly how to determine what counts as a "standardized breed". Peter coxhead (talk) 16:32, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support It makes sense (that is how breed standards, breed encyclopedias, magazine articles do it). Also, "abyssinian cat" looks ridiculous.--SilverTiger12 (talk) 13:04, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    (1) That's an example of SMcCandlish's "specialist style fallacy". (2) No-one would suggest "abyssinian cat"; it would be "Abyssinian cat" if we did de-capitalize. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:20, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, "abyssinian" would be out of the question, and the RfC is already clear on that: "except where a breed name is or contains a proper name". The WP:SSF stuff I addressed below in more detail. Capitalizing breeds veers towards one, but seems to stop just short, because a) plenty of non-specialist sources do it, and b) it is consequently common enough that it is not "weird" to the reader. If you see WP:BREEDCAPS and look below the for/against arguments and the list of previous discussions, there's some sourcing (N-grams, etc.). The capitalization tendency varies widely (even wildly) by various factors, though the one consistent thing was that no major dictionaries do it (except where a proper name occurs). News sources were all over the place, though they lean a bit lower case.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:21, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, the Abyssinian cat is just one of the first breed-names that came to mind for me. Yeah, breed-names that are derived from proper nouns would still be capitalized. However, there are also made-up breed names (Ocicat, Cheetoh, Toyger, etc.) that are rather ambiguous on that point; and I still think those would look ridiculous in lower-case: I went to a cat show and saw an ocicat win first prize, and a toyger and cheetoh tied for second place. Also, what about the Savannah breed? In lower-case, it appears to refer to an African grassland: I went to a cat show and the savannah was gorgeous.
Point two, books about cat breeds tend to capitalize; and people coming to Wikipedia to read about a cat breed is likely to be at least somewhat interested in cat breeds. Personally, if I saw one of the two sample sentences I just wrote, I'd have a wtf? reaction.--SilverTiger12 (talk) 15:25, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@SilverTiger12: re your point two, this is precisely the argument that has repeatedly been rejected in previous discussions. Almost all the books on my shelves about plants capitalize their English names, and I originally came to Wikipedia to read about plants. Although I'm more used to de-capitalization now, it can still look wrong to me. But the community's reaction to this has been "so what?" Peter coxhead (talk) 16:19, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Another part of that is a specious point for WP purposes, because we would never write "the savannah was gorgeous" in reference to a cat (even aside from emotive wording – I mean that we'd use a clearer construction, like "savannah cat"). The "it's necessary for disambiguation" argument completely failed in the WP:BIRDCON RfC, remember. A chief argument in favor of things like "Little Crow" was "If we use 'little crow' people will think we mean any crow that is small", and no one bought this argument, because obviously we'd simply write sensibly: "One crow species, the little crow (Corvus bennetti) is ...". Also, made-up breed names are not magically special. Every name for everything is made up, by someone at some point, yet that are not all proper nouns. E.g., we do not capitalize "carbine rifle" or "surfactant" or "durometer" or "exoplanet". The fact that people reading cat articles here are statistically more likely to be interested in cats and in turn more likely to expect capitalized cat breeds is meaningless; that argument could be used to push every strange style ever encountered in specialist writing, and push it harder the more obsessive the expert/fan base is; it would be a recipe for constant non-stop conflict, and for capitalization of virtually everything subject to any kind of literature of its own (dance steps, surfing and skating moves, videogaming terms, you name it).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:14, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in general – this the invariable practice in reliable sources, and there's no reason to even consider trying to establish something different here. Reservations: (1) this applies to all domestic breeds, not just those that are "standardised", and also to lines and strains – ISA Brown is capitalised though it is neither standardised nor a breed, but a commercial hybrid. (2) (a question): does the same apply uniformly to plant cultivars? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:10, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's clearly not the "invariable" practice in reliable sources; the National Geographic, to give just one example, does not capitalize breeds – see, e.g., [7].
    • Plant cultivars are a quite different matter. The International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants defines how their names should be written. There's no such equivalent for domesticated animals. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:20, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • And there's already the hard-won MOS:LIFE consensus - reaffirmed by the BIRDCON RfC – to not capitalize groups of animals at all. We're contemplating here one single, possibly palatable, very narrow exception for standardized breeds, primarily because they are published standards. They're as close as zoology is willing to get to the cultivar concept; all they lack is a slot in the scientific name. This "standardization of definitions and naming" rationale does not apply to vague overuse of the word breed to mean "named group of dogs/pigs/whatever mentioned in medieval sources", or "landrace", or "feral population", or "backyard-breeders' experiments in cross-breeding and making up names like 'pitsky'", or "naturally occurring wild–domestic hybrids" or "distinct populations of wild animals", or "coat variant I prefer and really like to capitalize because it looks more impressive that way", or "something I think is a breed but which every organization in the field refuses to recognize as one", or anything else. All those are already covered by MOS:LIFE as lower-cased, without exception.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:21, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

      • I understand this point, but the problem then is defining what is meant by "standardized breeds" and "published standards". "Standardized" by whom? "Published" where and by whom? In the article at Irish Setter, I see that "Red Setter" is or is not the same breed as "Irish Setter" depending on whose definition you accept. So should it be capitalized or not?
        The one really powerful argument in favour of lower-casing in Wikipedia is that it's a simple rule, easy to follow. Once you start capitalizing some breed names, but not others, as you propose, it gets very complex and open to endless arguments. It also doesn't solve the "wtf" reaction if you do end up with sentences like "There are different opinions as to whether the Irish Setter and the red setter are the same breed".
        The Irish Setter article also raises some other issues that need to be clarified. Should "Working Red Setter" be capitalized, as it is in the article? My answer is "no", as it isn't a standardized breed, so I assume it should be "working Red Setter". The article (like others on breeds) uses the second part of the name alone sometimes, as a way of referring to all breeds of setter (?Setter), and then generally capitalizes it. However, this seems like starting with "Sutton Park" and then using "the Park", which I do in my own writing, but which we don't do here. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:19, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        Addressed most of this below. In the setters example, if we were going with capitalized breeds, then Red Setter would be capitalized since at least one breed registry has it defined as a breed. But "setter" isn't a breed; it's a general class of breeds (like poodle, scenthound, etc.) And, no "working Red Setter" wouldn't have a capital W, any more than we'd write "Jones is Employed at the post office". A short form might be capitalized if exclusive, but "setter" isn't exclusive (i.e., it's the same case as "I like Sutton Park and Peasholm Park, but I'm not really sure which of the Parks is more relaxing, and the Park I spend the most time at is Sutton". Not many people write like that any more, and WP doesn't. We do have a tremendous amount of over-capitalization in breed articles, because most of them were written by breed fans in WP's early days before we even had much in the way of an MoS, and they were created in the same style as breeder magazines and newsletters (capitalize everything related to breeds and breeding, for signification emphasis). Cleaning them up is a slow process, with not many editors involved in it, so many of them still read like that.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:44, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Martinevans123. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:19, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - For me, this ultimately comes down to “what will cause the least amount of disruption and avoidable drama”. Lowercasing may well be the “correct” action in terms of grammar and style, but doing so will upset far more of our editors than retaining the capitalization will. Trying to “correct” the capitalization will simply result MORE disruption, and MORE endless arguments. Blueboar (talk) 16:11, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a slippery slope argument about a slope that isn't slippery. We know it's not because this didn't happen after the species de-capitalization. Indeed, it's the making of topical exceptions which leads to more endless arguments (for more exceptions). If the readership don't care, and only some breeds-focused editors do care, then there's actually little potential for drama in going lower-case. I know I sound like I'm advocating lower case when I'm supposed to be neutral, but this just seems like a weak argument to me, bordering on 180 degrees reversed.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:30, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:NOTLAW and WP:CREEP. Andrew D. (talk) 09:38, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Technically, this option is the one on the CREEP side, since it involves codifying a special exception – that some people will not understand or remember – to a general rule. The anti-CREEP option is "do not capitalize terms for groups of animals, period."  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:01, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It would frankly be embarrassing to make a rule requiring capitalization for every breed when there is no reputable, general-subject manual of style that does so, and universal prescription in dictionaries that many if not most breeds be lower cased. As discussed below, I support a general rule to lower case (except proper nouns) with exceptions for specific breeds when there is dictionary support to capitalize. But, barring that, I would rather have no general rule and just an instruction to do what any reputable dictionary supports than a rule requiring capitalization. --Bsherr (talk) 19:15, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for formal breeds with a documented breed standard. They're like models of cars in that they're a brand name of sorts, one that indicates it's specific category while at the same time not designating a specific individual. oknazevad (talk) 12:19, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Oknazevad: could you clarify what you mean by a "documented breed standard"? It's largely the ambiguity over this with the consequent opportunity for edit-warring over what does and does not count as a "documented breed standard" that deters me from supporting the proposal, although I'm often on the side of more capitalization. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:29, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • I mean that the breed has a published breed standard from a organizing body such as the AKC, UKC, CFA, TICA, and so forth. Now that may be easier to do for some animals, like dogs which have well-established governing bodies, and there's bound to be discussion about whether a particular organization is reputable, but those discussions already exist to a certain extent in deciding whether a breed even gets an article. But the publication of such a standard is itself the formalization as a brand or model that is a proper noun. oknazevad (talk) 12:39, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Oknazevad's logic, and per other points in the discussion. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:02, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support both "standardized" breeds and landrace breeds. Not all animal breeds or nations have "standardized" protocols, nor is one nation's standards the same as another, so trying to split out which is which would be a nightmare. Montanabw(talk) 22:28, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Change to lower-case

  • Support All I can see from the sources cited so far is that 1) sources differ from each other and 2) sources are internally consistent. Point 1 means that we can cherry pick whatever sources we want to defended whatever position we want, which means it isn't very useful, and we should therefor default to our own style guide. There MOS, as noted, is generally conservative on capitalization, and I see no reason why this is any different. Readers are unlikely to be confused by such a difference in style, so I lean towards treating these as any other common nouns.--Jayron32 00:17, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support lowercase per Jayron. There's too much uncertainty in deciding which breeds to cap, which organizations to take guidance from, etc., otherwise. Dicklyon (talk) 05:05, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Sources are mixed and Wikipedia's style generally tends toward less capitalization. It seems strange to put species in lower case, but then capitalize the lower rank of breed. That being said, I acknowledge the status quo and don't feel like fighting about it. If we do change to lower case, I'd be happy to help clean things up.  SchreiberBike | ⌨  00:07, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Breeds aren't actually taxonomic ranks, but their plant equivalent, cultivars, are in fact capitalized (by standardized convention, in ICNCP). But since breeds aren't actually ranks, this may be irrelevant. I covered both sides of this argument in WP:BREEDCAPS. The gist is that it's not weird to capitalize below species, since botany does it programmatically, but they're doing it for a formal-code reason that's not applicable here. And other for/against arguments outlined there also apply more clearly to standardized breeds.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:08, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I thank SMcCandlish for his thorough analysis. I agree the The Chicago Manual of Style's §8.128 is rather confused in its examples, but it also prescribes normal proper and common noun capitalization rules. The two examples SMcCandlish calls out from CMS, Rhode Island Red and Maine coon (lower case in CMS) are both capitalized by Oxford dictionary.[8][9] However, MLA, not mentioned yet, is more clear in insisting on lower case, and criticizing those that capitalize, although it also acknowledges that "other breed names are capitalized according to convention and for clarity". But I ultimately think the dictionary results on "German shepherd" highlighted by SMcCandlish are the most damning. Not one capitalizes both words. Then there's the matter of consistency with species names. Bottom line to me is we should lower case (except for proper nouns) unless a reputable dictionary indicates otherwise, and then treat it as we do other spelling variants (keep consistent within article, but otherwise do not change). --Bsherr (talk) 19:03, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, the partial counter-evidence was that various non-specialist, non-dictionary sources (e.g. news articles) do capitalize them fairly frequently (then again, this doesn't address the "default to lower case when sources are mixed" point by Jayron32, et al., higher up this section). It's just one of those judgement-call things. Do we risk more strife in permitting an exception for breeds, which is apt to inspire more demands for exceptions and which irritates some readers and editors, or by not permitting it, which is apt to irritate breeds-focused editors and also some readers, and which requires more care in writing? We'll always have a consistency issue either way, because probably around 75% of breed names will be capitalized anyway for containing proper names or adjectives derived from them (Hungarian, Nicastrese, etc.). Is it worse to have "a cross between the Nicastrese, pygmy, Russian white, and Norwegian goat breeds" or "a hybrid between the domestic Russian White goat breed and its wild relative, the kri-kri (a subspecies of ibex)"?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:14, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Between news articles and dictionaries, I'd think we'd go with the dictionaries. There's a difference between a source that merely encounters the issue and one that has likely considered it. To me, capitalizing breed names containing proper names isn't a consistency issue, it's consistency. Thus, as to your last example, the latter, oh the latter, is much worse. Finally, in the words of Sherlock Holmes: "I never make exceptions. An exception disproves the rule." --Bsherr (talk) 04:02, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I started out with a bias towards capitalization. (Disclosure: I supported allowing the capitalization of the English names of species, and would support it again if it became an issue.) However, I've seen no arguments that convince me that breed names are different from the English names of species, and that issue has been decided. No-one has produced a clear definition of what constitutes a breed name, and some supporters of capitalization want to take a very wide view, including landraces, for example. If we were going to recommend sentences like "a bald eagle has been recorded as having killed a Rough Collie" or "the animals portrayed included a Red Setter and a red cardinal", there should be a very convincing case, and there just isn't. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:52, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support lowercase for general consistency with the WP:BIRDCAPS decision. --Izno (talk) 05:03, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral / other

  • Neutral: I'm going remain on the fence about this, barring some amazing argument I've not see before.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:41, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Update: As of this writing, I see that the capitalization is more popular, among regular editors of breed articles, and people who frequently criticize MoS (two very different kinds of vested interest), but most of their rationales are fallacious. The few (so far) comments in favor of lower-case have no such problems, and are firmly grounded in policy and precedent. It's also not clear that we can even establish what "standardized breed" means in a clear enough way to make the capitalization case viable.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:37, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Better arguments needed I'm generally neutral on this matter (I'd like to see more capitalization in the English Wikipedia, but consistently so); however, there are some weak arguments being put forward.
    • There is no grammatical difference between the scientific names of breeds and the scientific names of species. All the arguments at User:Peter coxhead/English species names as proper names apply equally if a breed name is substituted for an English species name. In particular, a determiner is required with the singular (I saw German Shepherd is wrong) and plurals are fine (I have three German Shepherds), so that a breed name is not a proper noun phrase and hence is not capitalized for that reason.
    • The MoS is generally against capitalization; there should be strong arguments as to why this is an exception. Merely trotting out arguments that equally apply but failed to support the capitalization of the English names of species, such as "it's ambiguous without the capitals", is not enough.
    • If the capitalization of breed names is accepted, then the MoS will be recommending sentences like "A bald eagle has been recorded as having killed a Rough Collie" or "The zoo has specimens of red cardinals and Red Setters". I have to say that these produce a "wtf" reaction in this reader – I can't claim to know what the typical reader would think.
    • The argument from prevalence in sources is more nuanced than sometimes claimed, especially if you discount specialist sources. There's a strong tendency to continue capitalization, so that breed names are more likely to be fully capitalized if the first word is (derived from) a capitalized name or location. Thus Google Ngrams clearly favour "German Shepherd" over "german shepherd" but they also favour "border collie" over "Border Collie", albeit less so. (The same effect is found for species names if you check the Ngrams for "bald eagle"/"Bald Eagle" and "American robin"/"American Robin".) My tests suggest that if the first word isn't capitalized, Ngrams generally favour lower case throughout. I'm also influenced by magazines like National Geographic which regularly discuss both wild and domesticated animals and use lower case for the English names of both (see e.g. [10] for dog breed names).
Peter coxhead (talk) 14:27, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Syntax is the main but not only reason to capitalize in English; simple convention is often enough if not confined to specialist writing (what MoS advises isn't universally followed in RS or we wouldn't actually need a style guide; e.g. "Aids" and "Nato" are common in the British press, journalists often write things like "Homo Sapiens" instead of of "Homo sapiens", units are very often given with wrong capping, like "DB" for "dB"). The question raised by this RfC boils down to whether there's enough of a convention with regard to standardized breeds, across multiple sorts of writing, and by way of analogy to other standards, to support it on WP. So your second point is very pertinent. After gathering and balancing the arguments at WP:BREEDCAPS, it seems to me a very open question (and, yes, many of the arguments are weak, but that applies to both sides). I addressed the "conflicting consistencies" problem in more detail below. We actually do have a pretty clear idea of reader reaction, because capitalizing species caused a constant stream of complaint, but capitalizing breeds does not (though that is hardly an actual reason to do it). And the fourth point is certainly true; over here I put together over 60 evidentiary links (including some new ones at the bottom showing that the "keep capitalizing if we started capital" effect only applies to breeds). They mostly support lower-casing but indicate a tendency to capitalize when uncertain, and show confusion even among alleged language authorities like The Chicago Manual of Style and a popular English-usage website.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:51, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral General comment, no skin in this game: The rationales concerning what is capitalised remain elusive to me, the name of One-horse Town is never queried because it indicates a title recognised by a government or has some … what, 'cultural' value? English texts have slowly moved away from capitals, and that has been generally adopted as an improvement and way of avoiding the select use of them (eg. libraries rigidly using sentence case for book titles), but wikipedia should play no part in changes to current styles in english English; the solution is to skirt suppressing or encouraging a trend away from capitalisation. Or go the whole hog and suppress its in any and every name to avoid the implicit pov. cygnis insignis 07:45, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Above, the Ngram is given supporting "German Shepherd" over "german shepherd", but this is not the correct comparison, since "German" is always capitalized anyway. The most popular is the mixed "German shepherd". [11]. For an example of a common breed where this confusion isn't happening, "fox terrier" beats "Fox Terrier" and "toy poodle" beats "Toy Poodle". On the other hand, "Chow Chow" beats "chow chow". A hard and fast rule overruling WP:COMMONNAME may not be best solution here, just go with the common name instead? Fram (talk) 08:01, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

COMMONNAME is not a style policy and has nothing to do with capitalization; never has. Even if that were to change, it would be completely unworkable, since it would result in breed A (a common and popular breed) being lowercase because it commonly shows up in non-breeder sources and in lower-case, but breed B (an obscure one) being uppercase for no reason other than it not being mentioned except in breeder-oriented publications, which always capitalize. Imagine the chaos. "Johnson has four dogs: a dachshund, a Hygenhund, a golden retriever, and a Cantabrian Water Dog." No, an across-the-board decision is exactly what we need here (other than of course to continue to capitalize proper names like "New Zealand" in a breed name).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:25, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Extended commentary

  • A case can be made that capitalizing breeds is a specialized-style fallacy, but as the primary author of that essay, I would disagree, because it's not sharply at odds with general English-language practice (writing "Gloucestershire Old Spot pigs" or "Doberman Pinscher" does not produce a "WTF?" reaction in the typical reader, while writing "Wild Boar" or "African Elephant" would – readers are already aware that usage is mixed, in everyday sources, with regard to breeds). While we default to lower-case when usage in RS is mixed, we make many exceptions to this (especially at MOS:NUM on units of measure), for cases where a particular upper-case usage is subject to published standards. But an exception being permissible doesn't make it mandatory. This comes down to a community cost-benefit analysis, which is why I've opened this RfC.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:41, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    "run you mother run". Martinevans123 (talk) 20:47, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    [FBDB] That was a joking reference to this thread.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:02, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    But "my Red Setter chased a red cardinal" does produce a "wtf" reaction in me. You need to show that non-specialist sources that regularly discuss both wild and domesticated animals have a different capitalization style for breed names and the English names of species (and also for standardized and non-standardized breeds). Peter coxhead (talk) 14:32, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    That sort of thing is always going to happen in English (versus in German, which capitalizes all nouns and noun phrases simply because they're "nouny"). Being neutral on this, I don't have to show anything; but supporters of the caps should do so. There's already a repeatedly, deeply tested consensus at MOS:LIFE against capitalizing groups of animals, but a quiet "we're not sure about this one category" hole was left open primarily to not dive immediately into an ugly fight right after BIRDCON when emotions were still running high. Four years is long enough to cool. Personally, I'll be perfectly happy with lower-case if things swing that way. It would be easier in some senses and harder in others. But anyway, in style matters there are always conflicting rationales, conflicting uses from different excessively topical writing, and even conflicting consistencies that are orthogonal to each other (e.g. capitalize cultivars to be consistent with genus and grex, at the cost of consistency with more familiar names like "broccoli" and "Brussels sprouts"). "Can't please everyone, especially in English" should be a real saying. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 , 01:42, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, on your last point we can certainly agree! Peter coxhead (talk) 16:27, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please try to stay on-topic when commenting here. No one ever suggested anything like lower-casing "german". And trying to leverage or misread the very circumscribed RfC question into a case for over-capitalizing everything anyone ever uses the word "breed" about, is never going to fly. The fact that horse, cat, etc., fanciers and breeders like to capitalize all those not-really-breeds clusters of animals (ferals, landraces, cross-breeds with no recognition as new breeds in their own right, etc) is immaterial. Other sources generally do not, while their treatment of standardized breeds is much more mixed. The same fanciers and breeders also like to capitalize coat colors, eye colors, head shapes, breed clusters, training regimens, breed-development intents ("Beef Cattle", "Herding and Livestock-Guardian Dogs", "Ships' Cats"), and everything else to do with their hobby or livelihood. This is the very essence of the specialized-style fallacy, and is covered, guideline-wise, in the first rule of MOS:CAPS: do not misuse capital letters to emphasize, signify, or highlight in "grocers' capitalization" style. All of those not-really-breeds are already covered by MOS:LIFE, on purpose (and unmistakably, by the selection of terms and breadth of examples given). The only thing it leaves out, pending a discussion like this, is standardized breeds.
     — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:42, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    • What I just don't see is a clear definition of "standardized breeds" that can be used by editors with a wide range of experience and that will not cause nit-picking arguments about what bodies count as being able to standardize. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:25, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      Would depend on what the claims are, and what the sourcing for them amounts to.
      • For a breed being developed from a semi-consistent, and somewhat or entirely free-breeding population, like a landrace or a feral group, publication of any breed standard (or studbook, see below) under a unique name should actually be sufficient to capitalize that name.
        • Without evidence of such establishment, the claim that it's a beed is WP:OR. The recent WP:Articles for deletion/Double-nosed Andean tiger hound (which was created at a more capitalized title), concluded that this is basically a cryptid, there's no credible evidence of breed establishment, and that the article should be trimmed and merged into something on bifid noses in dogs (merge hasn't happened yet, though is under discussion at WT:DOGS).
      • Same goes for attempts to establish breeds from new mutations (e.g. a short-legged cattle variety or whatever, though this sort of breeding is more common in pets). As this is just a capitalization question, the notability/reputability of the breeders isn't really an issue. E.g. everything at List of experimental cat breeds is capitalized, though the entire page may not really be encyclopedic (we don't have a corresponding list for horses, geese, rabbits, goats, or anything else, and we probably would not have "List of garage bands in Singapore" to retain non-notable entries, either).
        • If it's just four guys with 15 pigs, the alleged breed would fail WP:Notability and WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE and WP:UNDUE, so WP wouldn't cover it anyway (WP:NFT summarizes this).
        • Given a notable feral/landrace population, and a handful of breeders who didn't even bother to change the name when they attempted to purebreed a standardized breed out of them for fixed characteristics, our article would still be about the notable feral population. We might write "Southwestern desert pigs are a population of feral pigs in [Where ever] ...", retaining that style throughout, except somewhere in a section below (or maybe even in the lead), include something like "A small group of breeders in [Where ever] and [Where ever else] are, since 2008, attempting to establish a standardized breed, named Southwestern Desert Pig, from the feral population." – if we thought it necessary to mention the standardization effort in the first place (how much weight does it have in the RS?), and mention what its name is.
        • This is the approach already taken at our articles in such cases. Four examples I can think of off the top of my head: Kiger mustang (with two competing breed-establishment efforts under different names); Cyprus cat; Aegean cat (doesn't mention any breed name – we don't seem to have any RS on what name the breeders are using for it anyway, which would probably be in Greek and need to be translated); and Van cat, just going by recent memory. A fifth is Iron Age pig, being RMed to boar–pig hybrid, because the alleged breed being developed from them under the "Iron Age pig" name is not the main subject of the article but UNDUE promotion by one cluster of intentional breeders in the lead section (such pigs as ferals are a major agricultural and environmental problem in North America and Australia, and that's the encyclopedic topic).
      • Crossbreeds should remain lower-case unless a notable breed registry accepts them as the establishment of a new breed. That's a WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:UNDUE, and WP:NOT#PROMO matter; any time a breeder produces an interesting-looking mongrel they have an incentive to slap a cute name on it for marking purposes, but RS still tell us these are crossbreeds not breeds. Most new breeds that major organizations accept, with sufficient proof of long-term true-breeding of characteristics and a lack of recent outcrossing, originated as crossbreeds of course, but it's a lengthy process (often decades). RS tell us when that process has been completed. For crossbreeds it is more than a typographic matter.
        • We also have a tertiary sourcing problem, where various breed encyclopedias are indiscriminately over-inclusive and try to include every single group of animals they can find a name for as a "breed" without any distinction (the larger the work is, the more comprehensive it looks to buyers). Similarly, the DAD-IS database accepts and uncritically republishes every "breed"-related claim submitted to it by any government or national organization, and thus includes erroneous data. E.g., if there's a common landrace of cattle in Elbonia, the Elbonian agriculture ministry may put the name "Great Elbonian cattle" on it (whether people there and any independent sources have ever used such a name) and claim it's a breed (and may be seeking protected designation of origin status for products made from it, etc. – this stuff may be a mixture of economic concerns, national pride, etc.). The exact same animals across the border in Kerblachistan may get reported to DAD-IS as "Kerblachian Blacheaded cattle" and also be claimed to be a breed, and DAD-IS will report them as separate breeds, without any indication that they're the same animals and are just free-breeding landrace livestock in herds no one is performing much selective breeding on, but simply trying to have enough cows to survive. Tertiary sourcing isn't sufficient to establish analytic, evaluative, or interpretative claims, nor to establish notability, yet we have numerous articles, including content forks for different names for the same animals, which were written in a wave in the 2000s, apparently in an attempt to replicate DAD-IS in Wikipedia, with no sourcing other than DAD-IS, primary (marketing) sources, and iffy breed encyclopedias (at least one of which is known to take paid entries, i.e. advertising).
      Some attempts to address issues like this were drafted at WP:Notability (breeds); while it stalled a while back and hasn't gone through a WP:PROPOSAL process, it was put together by regulars in the topic area, and seems to accurately reflect WP best practices on the topic. I've also summarized, mostly for new editors, how our WP:P&G apply to this topic, at WP:Writing about breeds. (It presumes standardized breeds should be capitalized, since that's the current majority practice here, though of course would have its wording changed if this RfC went the other direction.)
       — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:41, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On standardized breeds. I have some experience with cattle, horses, dogs and cats in respect to the subject. I have followed the links associated with this and find them to be unhelpful in resolving the question of what a standardised breed is. "Breed standards" are used in the context of showing dogs and cats, where show placings are determined by point scoring against a breed standard or "ideal". There are various national showing associations (ie by country) but in some cases, there may be more than one national association for a species. There are then, individual breed associations. For dogs, there are also working dog associations which do not use breed standards but rely on performance. The H|huntaway is an example of a registered breed for which there is not a breed standard. Cattle and horses do not (in my experience) use breed standards - or certainly not in the same way as dogs and cats. Cattle are judged pragmatically - and without reference to individual breed standards, though they may be judged against others of the same breed. They are judged on the basis of purpose. Led horses are judged on fitness for a particular task, which is a matter of conformation. These are not, in my observation, the same as breed standards for dogs and cats, which are about "form" and have essentially nothing to do with "function". My experience is that the distinguishing feature of a breed is the maintenance of a stud registry. I am not certain how this might apply to other "breeds" of other species (specifically birds) which are outside my experience. I suggest this issue might need to be addressed/clarified for this to be a workable proposal. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 01:29, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A stud registry for these purposes would count as a breed standard. Selection for meatiness, ability to do work, wool production, etc., is still regularized artificial selection for true-breeding characteristics, just different ones than the kind pet breeders care about. Kind of self-enforcing; farmers don't want crappy, low-value livestock no one wants to buy or use as breeding stock, and which produce insufficient or inferior product. Something selected, without regard to ancestry, based on performance under training or the intent to which the animal would be put to use isn't a breed of any kind, but a type, e.g. sled dog, draught horse. Anyway, lots of livestock breeds do in fact have breed standards in the more usual sense (standards of points, conformation standards). Here's one for the American Quarter Horse [12]. Because vastly more money is involved, and commercial predictability and homogeneity of livestock traits is important, breeders are also taking a cue from the development of laboratory strains, and have started issuing genetic standards, which would also qualify as breed standards (the most stringent kind); here's one for Holstein cattle [13].  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:41, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If a breed standard is the criterion, we would have "huntaway" but by the national stud registary we would have "Huntaway". Note, (if I have this right) unregistered champion dogs can be added to the registry? IMO, providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the criterion|a to establish the basis for capitalisation (and exception to the general guidance of MOS:CAPS) is pretty important. I think it would be appropriate to amend to both criteria or to foreshadow it. It is also probably appropriate to make the amended guideline explicit wrt capitalising the species (eg pig) or type (eg terrier) unless these are specifically part of the breed name as documented. This is touched upon in the opening discussion. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 06:23, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Huntaway cites a breed standard [update: it doesn't actually, just extremely basic description; see new note below]. But I get your point; there will be livestock breeds for which there's a studbook registry organization, but no conformation standard; we should treat them as equivalent for this question. Really, the whole point is if there's reasonable evidence it's an actual breed, in an encyclopedically meaningful sense and within reader expectations of what that word means, then capitalize it (if we continue with the caps at all), but otherwise use lower case per MOS:LIFE and MOS:CAPS more generally. If it's just some local landrace, or dogs mentioned in 1329, or some random yahoo's crossbreed of a German Shepherd and a Great Dane [the awkwardness of "great Dane" indicates one of the reasons some people lean toward caps on this], then it's not a breed, and nothing like a proper name in any sense that WP should care about. It's not a matter of "capitalize breeds, and define that loosely", but of "do not capitalize groups of animals, our long-extant rule, but perhaps make a very narrow exception for standardized breeds, because we're already doing it." I don't mean even that various articles not substantively edited for years and full of over-capitalization of all sorts of things are doing it; I mean that 4+ years of RM decisions have consistently done it (and not done it for things that are not such breeds, but are feral populations, crossbreeds, etc.). Whether to capitalize the species at the end is already de facto settled, exactly as you describe, so if MOS:LIFE had a breeds exception that would be included. PS: The people (two editors that I know of) who want to capitalize everything anyone ever calls a breed are weirdly also very insistent on whether or not to capitalize something like "dog" or "horse" at the end. They're all about very strictly following the exact wording of the breed standards when it suits their preferences, then flipping around and denying that breed standards matter at all to the capitalization question when they want to over-capitalize something like mustang or Van cat (named after Lake Van, not vans in the driving around sense).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:59, 13 December 2018 (UTC); updated: 10:59, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

New note: On huntaway dogs, a more detailed page here (British) suggests some additional average traits, but specifically states "Huntaways are not recognised by kennel clubs as a 'true' breed, but as only working dogs". But then it also contradicts itself, with statements like "The Huntaway breed is about 100 years old." Digging around further, one finds that this is just a general class of sheepdogs from New Zealand; it is primarily a training regimen, not a breeding programme. However, the British club are clearly trying to develop a standardized breed, in England, from NZ dogs of this sort, and are basing these efforts on the standardisation of the Border Collie (a recognizable general landrace since the mid-19th c. after standardisation of the Smooth and Rough Collie breeds, but itself only standardized as a breed in the 20th c.). So, for now, huntaways are a mongrel dog type (albeit of insularly limited stock) raised and trained for a particular purpose, not a breed (i.e., it's like "police dog" and "draught horse"), but there's a British group trying to turn them into a breed, which no major kennel club yet recognizes, and (WP:NOT#CRYSTAL) maybe never will. Hat-tip to Cinderella157 for pointing out the "not recognised by kennel clubs" point). Even the recognition it has in the NZKC is as a working dog type which can be registered for dog trial competition (a training test), not as a breed.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:37, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification - dogs winning trials are admitted to a register (stud book as I understand it). My reading re NZKC is that it is a "recognised" breed but without a "breed standard". Hence my point that maintenance of a studbook or breed register by a national association may be more definative of a breed than a "breed standard" in many or most situations. This is certainly true of livestock, cats and dogs but may not be true of breeds in others species, such as poultry. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 22:12, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There's more than one reason to maintain a studbook, though, so we'd have to use clearer language. One is breed maintenance, another is the hopefully heritable performance traits of a specific award-winning animal. Both are also done in horse breeding and various other spheres. There are studbooks for the continuity of a specific horse breeds, and for the (often very high-priced) privilege of siring new foals from a consistent race-winner. I'd be willing to grant benefit of the doubt to [h|H]untaway, since NZKC doesn't have a separate section for breeds and non-breeds, and the UK group is trying to establish a standardized breed, but it's an iffy case and this borders on original research (specifically, making WP:AEIS decisions based on nothing but personal interpretation of a primary source). If all that's at stake is whether to capitalize the name or not, it's not a big deal, but the article should not claim this is actually a breed without more evidence. What we have so far is classification of them as working dogs permitted for competition in training, not conformation, shows; and a different group on the other side of the world from where the dogs originated who are attempting to establish a breed but admitting that no major organizations accept it as one yet, which is rather damning on the breed question from an encyclopedic perspective. Especially so if one considers the nature and history of British (and American, and Canadian, and – going in the reverse geographical direction – Australian and New Zealander) breed establishment efforts: they frequently use extremely limited foundation stock, sometimes cross-bred, and produce something markedly different from the local population from which [most of] that stock was taken.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:18, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The length and detail of this discussion simply confirms my view that there's no clear definition available as yet of what would count as a standardized breed for the purposes of capitalizing, so adopting this proposal would be a recipe for confusion and edit-warring. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:36, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • My take is that this was an itch that didn't need to be scratched. My take is trying to eliminate capitalization of breed names is going to lead to endless editing wars. Assorted style guides intended for general audiences will always be a problem where there is technical language, and specialist style does, in fact, actually have a place. Montanabw(talk) 22:42, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, aside from the question being indefinitely open having the effect of keeping MOS:ORGANISMS in perpetual draft state, the last time we had an "unofficial maybe-exception" anywhere near this sphere, it led to the worst WP:DRAMA outbreak I've ever seen on WP aside from crazily heated topic areas like Israel–Palestine. If we're to make an exception to MOS:LIFE it should be codified (and within bounds pretty much everyone will accept, namely the de facto ones we already mostly use). Otherwise someone will eventually just undo it. The WP:BIRDCON "RfC of doom" happened because someone opened a WP:RM about one bird article, and the RM closed in favor of lower-case, not finding any rule that would say otherwise, and finding that usage in RS was mixed. Exactly the same scenario. The WP:MR that followed that didn't find any fault with the RM's consensus assessment and closure, so the RM was endorsed. No MoS people were involved at all at that point. Someone from WP:BIRDS immediately opened a third discussion about it, at WT:MOS, I put an RfC tag on it to draw in more eyes and brains and get a better consensus record, and a month later we decapitalized all the vernacular names of species, and various editors quit in a huff. Having three consensus debates about it back-to-back put everyone on edge, digging trenches, and even resorting to meat puppetry in one case. It turned into a WP:WINNING contest. I don't want to see anything like that happen again. We should just decide there is an upper-casing exception or there isn't one, and write it down clearly, either way. Not leave a presumptive exception that's not specified and which anyone can challenge as illusory. The only thing in favor of caps right now, on the policy-arguments side, is that MOS:LIFE doesn't specifically mention breeds in its list of examples of not capitalizing groups of animals (which isn't much in the face of a general rule to not capitalize groups of animals, and another general rule to use lower-case when sources' usage is mixed).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:39, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Montanabw: where there is technical language ... specialist style does, in fact, actually have a place – I agree with my reformulation of your point, but the crucial issue is what is, and is not, "technical language". As an example, the MoS is clear that the scientific names of organisms should be written in the style required by specialist sources (e.g. capitalized down to the level of genus). Scientific names are clearly technical language, and reliable generalist sources accept this. There are other clear examples, e.g. how SI units should be written.
      Having started out with a relatively open mind (actually with a bias towards capitalization), I have become convinced that this argument does not apply to breeds. No-one can produce a clear, workable definition of what constitutes a breed; there is no convincing evidence that reliable generalist sources consistently treat the naming of breeds as technical language. I hesitate to keep referring to one particular publication, but the National Geographic is very relevant, I think: it's somewhat specialized, but not overly so. It treats the scientific names of organisms as technical language, but not the names of breeds. On the basis of the discussion to date, and given the previous rejection of arguments for capitalization in the case of the English names of species, I conclude we should not capitalize breed names. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:38, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Some clarification

QEDK, I have rolled back you edits to the MOS, just to seek some clarification of the in respect to these. More to follow. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 12:09, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Although I don't contest it, the correct course of action is to open another RfC and modify/remove it using that consensus (if any). I'm open to answering clarifications ofc, although you haven't asked anything yet. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 12:41, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I do not dispute your close here, but suggest that there might be some further clarification - particularly where you say: "general consensus is to retain the current standard of capitalization". The proposer has shown that this is "mixed"? Consequently, this statement is possibly not as helpful as you intended? Your edits to the MOS are less equivocal and perhaps, better reflect your intent? I* quote (following) the text at MOS after your edits [less notes]. I have added underlines for reference.

English vernacular ("common") names are given in lower case in article prose (plains zebra, mountain maple, and southwestern red-tailed hawk) and in sentence case at the start of sentences and in other places where the first letter of the first word is capitalized. They are additionally capitalized where they contain proper names: Przewalski's horse, California condor, and fair-maid-of-France. This applies to species and subspecies, as in the previous examples, as well as to general names for groups or types of organism: bird of prey, oak, great apes, Bryde's whales, mountain dog, poodle, Van cat, wolfdog. When the common name coincides with a scientific taxon, do not capitalize or italicize, except where addressing the organism taxonomically: A lynx is any of the four species within the Lynx genus of medium-sized wild cats. Non-English vernacular names, when relevant to include, are handled like any other foreign-language terms: italicized as such, and capitalized only if the rules of the native language require it. Non-English names that have become English-assimilated are treated as English (ayahuasca, okapi). Standardized breeds should generally retain their capitalization wherever possible. This means German Shepherd dog is the correct way to mention the breed, and not German shepherd dog. This applies whether or not the included noun is a proper noun, in contrast to how vernacular names are titled; making Golden Retriever is the correct way to name the breed, with both the words Golden and Retriever capitalized.

Please consider the following:

  • There is an inconsistency with existing text per poodle. A minor issue.
  • Per "generally" - what does that mean or imply?
  • A link is made to Standardized breeds. Within the linked article, there is a further link to Breed standard. Neither of these are "authoritative" articles and the former is tagged. Even the article proper noun is regularly ignored in capitalisation discussions (I can provide details).
  • The OPs intent was to resolve conflict rather than create further conflict. The RfC raised legitimate questions as to what constituted a "standard breed". This is the quintessential question. If the close cannot conclude what the answer is, then it should acknowledge the need to address this further?
  • How do you "define" the "general consensus"? The purpose of the RfC was to define this. The OP has attempted to define the general consensus as a "standardised" breed. Is there a consensus as to what a "standardised breed" is? What is it?
  • The ISA Brown is an example of a commercial but "non-standardised" breed. In this age, any breeder can register and incorporate a breed society and "establish" a "breed standard". The devil is in the detail as to what constitutes a "breed standard" or even if this constitutes a "breed" - across the range of species in which there are "breeds".
  • The essential question is the criteria for what constitutes a "standardised breed" within the context of WP:MOS. Unless this can be defined, the issue of capitalising breeds within WP remains open. Consequently, any attempt to give guidance on this matter will create conflict rather than resolve it.
  • To the final comment in closing the RfC: Policy is dictated by the community, not the other way around and general consensus is to retain the current standard of capitalization. I would observe that the MOS is a guideline (in the first instance) and that policy is also dictated by law (and not just the community).

To conclude, I do not dispute the close. However, the close (as written) does not appear to support the edits made to the MOS nor do those edits appear "watertight" in respect to further conflict and the purpose of the RfC. Please reconcile the changes to the MOS and the close of the RfC by way of more detail. Alternatively, provide guidance in closing the RfC that is both indicative of what the MOS should reflect in consequence of the RfC and how (or what) is required to an achieve an amendment to the MOS. I respect that your edits to the MOS are a step to achieving consensus on the matter. Your conclusions as closer on informing the matter may be [more than] constructive. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 14:18, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Given those responses, I would challenge the close. --Izno (talk) 15:53, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I will be responding in order to make life a bit easier for all of us (ending with a short monologue maybe):
  1. Inconsistencies will always exist within any guideline, the consensus that emerged was merely a generalization and if there was a "watertight" formulation amongst the supporters of either proposal, I would definitely document it. Just to clarify with respect to poodle, in my analysis of consensus, it would be that if it referred to the particular breed, it's be capitalized and if the "poodle" group of dogs, then not.
  2. I added "generally" simply because of the inconsistencies that could occur, there's possibilities that might not have been considered yet as well. MOS is a guideline and should be treated as such.
  3. Unfortunately, there isn't, but that is the closest documenation to anything that's there. We have the option of not linking to anything and leaving readers guess as what standardized breeds could be referring to.
  4. The RfC did not address with a proper consensus what a standardized breed is. And while the question was raised, the main crux of this RfC was to set a guideline on capitalization and not to address what standardized breeds are. The ideal way would be a RfC that first defined what we regard as standardized breeds and then to decide on any capitalization policy in a different RfC but considering we had one for the latter, it should be left to discretion as to what constitutes standardized breeds, considering if there are status quo standards in place, it's not difficult to move on to anything else.
  5. Another quick note that the primary subject of the RfC at hand is not what you say it is. The work of a closer is to assess consensus presented, there is not enough consensus here regarding any definition of a "standardized" breed and is hence, not documented.
  6. The essential question should either have been arrived to in consensus in a RfC previous or this one, neither of the situations occured. The only general consensus was to have standardized breeds capitalized and as such, that should be addressed in a new RfC.
I hope that does answer all your questions. Consensus is always mixed, the work of the closer is to assess it to give a verdict and the consensus here was clearly leaning towards retaining the current guideline of capitalization. I don't have any viewpoint on this as to what I would push my agenda for. I edited the MOS in a manner that, in my opinion, best reflected the consensus in the RfC. And as Peter coxhead has said on his TP, removing the MOS is technically challenging the close. I would not mind further deliberation as to what should be reconstituted in the new MOS but then I'd like my close to be removed as well (since it is not my close technically) and any editor challenging the close is requested to revert my close here as well the next time. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 21:30, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you QEDK. Your response fleshes out what was otherwise a very brief closing statement and makes the basis for your edit to MOS clearer. What you are saying is that the job is half done. We know that we should capitalise something but not exactly what it is that we should be capitalising? They were poodle breeders, having: Toy Poodles, Miniature Poodles and Standard Poodles. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 23:37, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I believe you have summarised the situation, sort of. The implication of my close is that it has to be the editors' discretion where exactly the guideline is to be applied, I'll try to modify my closing statement at a later date when better network resources are available. So either you can let this be as it is or if you desire, open another RfC to determine what exactly are standardized breeds. And as for your example statement, this is indeed how the current MOS guideline states it as. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 14:07, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Columns in reflists

  • Proposal: Make unwritten rule written.

First an option, now compulsory. Some people fancied columns and now no one is allowed to use the existing parameter. And I am accused of working against a 'consensus', also exceptionally bloody unpleasant. I disagree it is an improvement, and don't think I'm the only one who find them hard to read and naff, but if it is now compulsory the documentation and policy should outline that no one is allowed to continue using the single column function and they can be reverted to 3RR if they try. This should be VERY clearly stated in policy and documentation for the template. cygnis insignis 02:56, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is presumably about Template talk:Reflist#column default, where after much not-getting-it-ism, the OP was pointed to the means to set all columns to whatever width, or non-width, he pleases. --Izno (talk) 03:14, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Izno, no, this is about stopping anyone else getting the same run around and being insulted for having a different view (not uncommon outside this place) and reverted to that preference. This is not the place for debate, or thug someone you disagree with. I'm asking that the pollicy and documentation reflect the result of consensus / fait accompli. cygnis insignis 03:51, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Clarify that 'the means to change' is to change my own display, not use the existing parameter because apparently I am the only person who ever objected and not liking this is weird. It is shit design for digital documents, my opinion, it is very bad to have a unwritten rule that allows content creators to think they are contributing in an unobjectionable way and is distracted by yet another a claim by swaggering edit warriors that something undocumented at the template or MOS is compulsory. Clearly that needs to be documented, the unwritten rule be written, because I have better things to contribute than opposing what a clan of wikithugs staked out as their territory. I surrender, they won, change the documentation to stop giving ammo to the otherwise disinterested talk page goons who fight this out from article to article. cygnis insignis 07:06, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:CREEP. IMO, columns are only appropriate where there are hundreds of references. Andrew D. (talk) 10:20, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Deletion" -> "Unpublish" and "Warning" -> "Final caution"

WP:MEDRS policy ?overemphasis on reviews

Hi. In my opinion there may be many medical experts in the short term future contributing to wikipedia. Several I know are reading our policies in detail as we speak. Medical experts now are only now starting to realise its importance. Wikipedia is not a place for medical reviews. However, as an expert, when we are reviewing we are repetitively taught to NOT to cite reviews, ever, rather primary sources. In Wikipedia, we need to give new studies their weight (please note I have never tried to cite my studies, only my review, which I consider should never be cited in medical literature - but it was, thats the point). But under WP:NPOV when making encyclopedic articles we should, in my opinion cite an important singular study, so the content is up to date. And then neutralise it with an expert opinion commenting it on its relevance, and experts that say it is irrelevant. I think that Wikimedia foundation may assist with the replication crisis in medicine in this regard. The reason I feel strongly about this is because experts such as myself find it hard to contribute, but are starting to realise that it may be more important than submitting to the New England Journal of Medicine sometimes. What do we think? E.3 (talk) 07:01, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Re primary V secondary: If the explanation at WP:MEDRS isn't enough, see Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources. Wikipedia is based on reliable secondary sources, so while there is a place for primary, peer-reviewed research, reviews are much better because they help to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source, and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. An encyclopedia and a scientific manuscript are very different creatures. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 11:21, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You and other academics are taught to cite primary sources and offer your original thoughts on a topic: after all, if you have nothing original to say, what is the point in publishing your review, or giving you course merit. Citations in academic circles are not only there as evidence of source material to back-up a point, but also as part of the scientific courtesy of giving credit to the preceding science that established a fact. These are not Wikipedia's concerns and we do not want original thought. We need to publish the consensus opinion of experts, and the best way to do that is to read and cite the secondary literature rather than primary research papers. If a particularly study is exceptionally notable in its own right, then it can be mentioned in article text and for some facts, cited as a source about itself (e.g., number of patients recruited). But for conclusions (was it efficacious, safe, cost-effective, etc) we prefer to use secondary literature. For most facts, the reader is not interested in the study that established it.
There is a particular problem with editors who wish to promote a point of view at odds with the expert consensus. It is easy to cite individual research studies to back up claims that are not in fact considered robust or even truthful by experts. By writing "A scientific study ... found that ...." they appear to give scientific evidence for their POV. We would rather, in most cases, the article text just stated the fact, and cited a high quality secondary source. A good example of such are the systematic reviews performed by medical organisations to make clinical recommendations. They may grade the evidence into levels of quality and may even dismiss studies that fail to meet certain standards. This is the original research we want to build upon rather than doing ourselves. In contrast the authors of those research studies may over-inflate the robustness of their claims and merit of what they have achieved. Review papers are not the only alternatives, of course. For many topics, a professional-level and topic-specific textbook may be more comprehensive, though perhaps not so up-to-date. -- Colin°Talk 12:51, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Articles with a single source

I think ALL articles with WP:1R should be deleted. The current guideline, which states only to add the template is not enough and swells the backlog. I think all editors (especially the new ones) should be forced to draft on userspace before publishing to mainspace. Reliability, even though it is a vastly different topic, is a huge part of notability. Of course there SHOULD be exceptions with highly reliable sources. But enforcing the no 1 source rule will make life a lot easier for this community. Please don't forget to ping me when you reply. ImmortalWizard(chat) 18:33, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

They should all be improved and further sources added, where possible. --Michig (talk) 18:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Michig: it would be really difficult for people to do cleanups. All I am saying is using the userspace efficiently. One should not simply create a page. ImmortalWizard(chat) 18:44, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's very easy for people to "do cleanups" based on one source in cricket articles. In fact, ImmortalWizard, you could easily do it yourself. If the article contains a link to CA, add a link to CI. And vice versa. If this is the only problem relating to "one source", it's just as easy to fix yourself as to complain about it. Once again you are contradicting yourself as to whether the problem is that the articles contain only one source or whether CA and CI are sufficient enough as sources. Bobo. 18:48, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wait no, I am not talking only about cricket, it's in general. ImmortalWizard(chat) 18:56, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And what if I CAN'T find any more sources? ImmortalWizard(chat) 18:57, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That depends. Are you referring to cricket articles, or articles in general? If you're still referring to cricket articles, as you have been throughout our conversations and on WT:CRIC, you know precisely where the "second source" is to be found. Bobo. 19:04, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • A good rule of thumb: If an article is under sourced, first try to fix the problem yourself... then see if others can help out. If you have personally searched for additional sources (per WP:BEFORE) and can not find ANY... then go to the relevant project talk pages and noticeboards to see if others can help. If that fails, you have grounds to nominate the article for deletion. Blueboar (talk) 19:25, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Blueboar: thanks for your advice. ImmortalWizard(chat) 20:55, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm of the opinion that there are many cases where a simple merger to a larger, more inclusive article would be sufficient. Additional sources could then support creation of a stand alone article. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 22:46, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Current event templates

What is the point of current event templates? I think in most cases it would be clear that the article deals with a current event. Yes, the available information may be changing fast, but so what? The template is frequently used in cases where the article is being continually updated by a number of editors. There doesn't seem to be an obvious problem with an article like that. The problem is with an article that isn't being updated. Ironically, deaths attract the tag, even though the death is unlikely to change. Sure, we learn more information, but that is more true about living people. And what is a current event? Brexit has the template, even though it has been going on for years. Sure things are changing, but that is true for many articles, even for the article about the Earth. New information can be found about ancient history.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've always presumed that it's there to warn editors that an edit conflict is quite likely or that the information they'll add is likely to be changed very soon as newer and more accurate sources emerge. It probably also tries to say that if you are in the process of adding some information you read in yesterday's newspaper, you should check today's since some knowledge has probably changed already. The most useful feature is probably the category because it helps in monitoring pages that attract many (newbie) editors and probably spawn many discussions on the talk page that require consensus to form more or less instantly. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:16, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Finnusertop. That makes sense.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:13, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gender information

Wouldn't it make sense to formally indicate the gender of a person, for example in cases where the name is not an indication, and in any case the name and the use of gender articles might be insufficient.

Also, what is the policy on transgender persons? Without gender information, some transgender to males for example appear to have always been male, and equivalently females appear to have always been female. While there may be an argument that gender is a choice, it is also something people are born with by biological assignment and so information about gender is biographical. -Inowen (nlfte) 06:38, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is no need to record information pertaining to a person's gender or sex, unless that person's gender or sex is somehow related to their notability. RGloucester — ☎ 06:58, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds convoluted, so how about something simpler: If they are male, we indicate they are male, and female indicated as such. If they are transgendered, its indicated that they are transgender, and also which of the two kinds of transgender. -Inowen (nlfte) 09:33, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's not convoluted at all. Unless their gender status is important to why they're notable, it's not relevant to the article. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:37, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Manual of Style already has a section on how to handle gender identity, and another on how to handle name changes. Novusuna talk 10:48, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
May be worth pointing out that since I pointed out the relevant sections of the Manual of Style, Inowen has proposed changes on the MoS talk page. Novusuna talk 22:46, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This seems like a job for Wikidata. Most biographies include this information in one way or another; standardized formally indicating things is very much Wikidata's thing. power~enwiki (π, ν) 22:34, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Power~enwiki: and they do.. wikidata:Property:P21 - <sarcasm> and so very very suprisingly it is not argued about all the time at wikidata:Property talk:P21 </sarcasm>. — xaosflux Talk 23:09, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting that I encountered my first trans-gendered person biography during the course of standard editing in a loooong time just a couple of hours ago, Ina Fried. The solution in this articles case is to handle via Categories, specifically Category:Transgender and transsexual women. I think that a combination of categorization and Wikidata (as noted above) is sufficient where the person's gender is not part of the person's notability, but this shouldn't be something writ in stone; like most things here, there's a wide range of acceptable solutions. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 22:43, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notability of elections?

Do we have a specific policy or guideline about the notability of elections, or do we simply apply WP:EVENT? I ask this becaus I noticed 1909 Invercargill mayoral election and similar articles, and I wondered if such a local elections with some 2,000 voters isn't too local in scope and coverage. We could make hundreds of thousands of articles about elections of that scale if we simply look at all local councils in democracies over the last 100 or 150 years, and perhaps we should limit ourselves to elections with a larger impact instead, and bundling such smaller elections in "local elections in year X in country or state Y" articles instead? All thoughts welcome. Courtesy ping Template:Ping:Pokelova. Fram (talk) 07:27, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Pokelova: Fram (talk) 07:28, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We generally don't have articles at this level of detail; if local elections at the same time in all cities in New Zealand, an article on 1909 local elections in New Zealand would be reasonable. The information could also be included on Charles Stephen Longuet, the elected mayor in this election. power~enwiki (π, ν) 22:33, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have no particular stance about the notability of these races, but these kinds of mergers result in articles that are pretty useless for readers. Merging them into personal biographies bloats articles with big tables that don't fit there, and merging them into mass-election article results in a huge page of elections with nothing much in common and sprawling tables that are hard to build upon into any kind of useful prose about the subject to inform readers. This is an issue better dealt with on a case-by-case basis as to whether they meet WP:GNG, but if they're important enough that the content needs to be on Wikipedia, they're far better dealt with in individual articles than creating bloated messes that exist for the sole purpose of denying them individual articles. The Drover's Wife (talk) 00:21, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Boss
Boss
Boss
Boss
Phoning it in. Go home
To me it looks like an excuse to host photos of that amazing facial hair. When I look at the pages for 1907 Invercargill mayoral election, 1908 Invercargill mayoral election, 1909 Invercargill mayoral election, ... 2019 Invercargill mayoral election. I can easily imagine all of the content -- boss portraits included -- being merged into one table of election dates, candidate names, and vote counts, with a couple sentences of notes. How is that sprawling? Or uninformative? To me this kind of thing is easily solved. It could be a nice list page, and in the hands of someone who cared, an FL. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:37, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It depends what you think readers are after - I'm super-nerdy about politics, but the only time I'm ever looking for names-and-numbers results is if I'm writing something for Wikipedia. If I go to an encyclopedia article on an election, the candidates' names, photos and a results table are the absolute minimum you'd expect, but one would normally expect some actual prose telling me anything whatsoever about the subject. I guess I don't see the point of bothering if you're going to put the most bare-bones of information in a format that prevents it ever being used to tell readers anything more useful than the exact number of votes some dude got. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:50, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I don't see the point of a table.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:54, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think there has been a specific cutoff of what electoral campaigns are notable for their own page. Within the past year, there is precedent for keeping individual pages of special elections for races for US Congress, such as 2017 Georgia's 6th congressional district special election. However, there was a strong debate about whether 2018 California's 10th congressional district election should be kept. My position is that is there is sufficient RS sourcing the electoral contest could be notable, including a local mayoral race. --Enos733 (talk) 18:24, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Footnotes vs. parenthetical citations

I started a conversation on footnotes vs. parenthetical citations: Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources#Author_prominent_citations. Please contribute to the conversation there. Coastside (talk) 16:33, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

new proposals regarding admin activity standards

see Wikipedia:Administrators/2019 request for comment on inactivity standards Beeblebrox (talk) 20:51, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bad guidance in Template:One other topic

Please join discussion at Template_talk:One_other_topic#Encourages_partial_title_matches about the guidance in the {{One other topic}} template which encourages partial name matches.

As per the Disambiguation Dos and Don'ts, editors are not supposed to "include every article containing the title." The template basically guides editors to do just that. Coastside (talk) 16:50, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why do we suddenly have thousands of article linked to Template:Curlie?

I gather that there used to be a project called DMOZ, and that Curlie is purporting to take over for DMOZ, but I feel like there should be some kind of discussion before we decide that thousands of our most prominent pages should link to one specific third-party website. bd2412 T 19:15, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@BD2412: the DMOZ templates that are likely still in place was redirected to the new template over a year ago. — xaosflux Talk 19:25, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
See also Template_talk:Curlie#Requested_move_8_December_2017. — xaosflux Talk 19:26, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I see. I'm not sure why we need these, but it's a small matter. By the way, the article, Curlie, is up for deletion. bd2412 T 20:06, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notability of theatrical plays

This draft offers, in my view, a legitimate set of criteria for the notability of theatrical plays. -The Gnome (talk) 10:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose

  • Why? Is there some perceived need for an SNG specific to plays? --Izno (talk) 15:51, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    The benefits of having one are the same for having in place one for films. -The Gnome (talk) 19:15, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Which are? --Izno (talk) 20:00, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    On the basis of the strengthening of WP:5P1 and WP:INDISCRIMINATE, as well as more and more people turning to Wikipedia "to keep up with the popular culture moments happening around them" (link), Wikipedia has been tightening up on its inclusion criteria. Consequently, subject-specific guidelines for notability have been increasing in number at the rate of approximately one every year. This is a welcome trend as the increasing size of the AfD process indicates. Do you object to having WP:NFILM in place? -The Gnome (talk) 21:27, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    P.S. Discussions at the pump tend to get unwieldy, as it is, so we should strive for clarity whenever we can. You can !vote to oppose the suggestion in the Oppose section and ask questions at the Discussion section. Wouldn't this be more practical and clear, also for readers? - The Gnome (talk) 21:31, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:OTHERSTUFF about the FILM question. Please answer my question directly. What is the benefit of Yet Another SNG? If the play is notable, it should be able to meet the WP:GNG. Are there plays which do not which we should cover? Conversely, are there plays we cover that we should not? SNGs, if they are employed, should cover those two cases. I doubt this one does, especially since it was initially drafted in 2011. 8 years is a long time on Wikipedia.
    Please consider reviewing WP:LISTGAP regarding the indenting you changed.
    I'll ignore your comment on discussions. It's my choice to have this discussion under the oppose section since I currently and will continue to oppose until I get some good answers. If you would like to reply in #Discussion, that is your prerogative. --Izno (talk) 23:14, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I suggested placing this discussion in the, well, Discussion section since this is why we have such sections: to have discussions separately from !votes. It simply makes for better navigation. That's all. Of course, it's your prerogative to post anywhere you feel like. And I asked if you oppose the existence of WP:NFILM. You responded by invoking WP:OSE, which can only mean that you consider WP:NFILM to be "stuff" that "already exists" and "probably should not." Interesting. -The Gnome (talk) 23:39, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t know where I'll land on this question but this discussion feels like this is really a case of some stuff exists for a reason which not so coincidentally resides at OTHERSTUFF. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 06:17, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Greetings, Barkeep49. Izno above asked 'Why?' and I pointed out WP:NFILM strictly as a kind of short hand (similar justification). I then provided a fuller explanation for my proposal without using at all the existence of a precedent as justification. Hope this is clearer now. -The Gnome (talk) 17:36, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as instruction creep and unneeded bureaucracy as GNG is enough. There are not enough play articles being written to need an SNG in comparison to the far greater number of film articles, thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 23:12, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Can you update the date?

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Template messages#Can you update the date? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 12:09, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Biography Page

Just wondering why you eliminated the birthdays and death days of prominent people from the new look of the Biography page ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kchriste101 (talk • contribs) 17:17, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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