Talk:List of modern conflicts in the Middle East

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yes

middle east[edit]

yeah what you ref is greater middleeast but the article is called middle east see the difference only from iran to morroco to turkey to yemenMughalnz (talk) 23:00, 15 April 2010 (UTC)thanks man[reply]

Middle East is ambiguous for a reason. The Afghanisntan/Pakistan conflict are often considered part of the Middle East but also South Asia. I really don't know how to move on from here. I would personally prefer we keep the conflict in the article, unless we can find a better reason not to. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:53, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
is kind of ambigious, but it does state the diff from the to two middle east.Can't put info in incorrect section.Especially when greater middle east was not created by academics.I will add more conflict to the page.if that will help.ThanksMughalnz (talk) 00:26, 16 April 2010 (UTC) [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East conflict in middle east ]Mughalnz (talk) 00:46, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
you right in the middle east wiki page it is listed as greater middle east not me ,but like pak isnot middle eastMughalnz (talk) 03:53, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Include all those conflicts with Israel[edit]

Hw bout expanding Israeli conflict and Israeli Palestinian conflict.or creting subheadings if you know what i mean03:53, 17 April 2010 (UTC)thanks

This is a valid question. It is astonishing to see so only one Israeli flag in a list of Middle East conflicts. Each major event needs to be in the main text, not just in the references. Coldfusion11 Sept 12 2016 Coldfusion11 (talk) 02:32, 12 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coldfusion11 (talk • contribs) 02:27, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a reason that the 1967 and 1973 conflicts (among others) involving Israel are not listed? 2601:582:303:4A40:A08F:DBFA:9CE3:5A84 (talk) 23:21, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

is this list partial?[edit]

wasn't egypt in yemen in the early 60's and so on?

N.Yemen Civil war includedGreyshark09 (talk) 14:52, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

what about all of the wars of Israel with the arab nations? i.e. (to name just a few): 

- the six-day war of 1967
- the Yom-Kippur war of 1973
- The 1st lebanon war - is the civil war in lebanon suppose to cover that?
- operation cast-lead (Israel-gaza war of 2008)
- isn't the sabra & shatila massacre suppose to be here?

(please don't erase this and answer here, I don't have a Wikipedia user-name, I'll come back in a few days to check out the response and if there's need - I'll help update in anyway I can). b.t.w My name is Alon - thnks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.111.72.161 (talk) 13:50, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The relevant integrative conflicts are Arab-Israeli, Israeli-Palestinian and Lebanese Civil War. If all battles and skirmishes of each conflict are listed - it would make the list unreadable. Thus larger continuous conflicts account by total deaths.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:19, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK so if I understand you correctly it's: the six-day war of 1967, the Yom-Kippur war of 1973 both go to Israeli-Arab conflict. operation cast-lead goes to Israeli-Palestinian, and the Sabra massacre goes to the Lebanese Civil War?

thnx - Alon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.111.72.161 (talk) 14:13, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Considering the definition and scale of those wars they clearly are a part of those conflicts, and the casualty rate for conflicts includes the relevant death toll of the sub-conflicts.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:35, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So why are they missing now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.254.49.115 (talk) 09:57, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

messed up article[edit]

ya basically a messed up article? ... it makes it look like lebanon is a violent country (the 2006 -> 2008 conflicts are part of the Cedar Revolution) why no war on gaza? this is such an outdated article. --Smkaram (talk) 18:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

more importantly why "modern" needs it's own section[edit]

ditto headline

Yet another question, how come the modern period begins in 1948 ? Modern period is usually defined as the beginning of the 20th century (it also appears this way in the list of conflicts in the middle east). It might be also acceptable to begin the conflict list with the end of WWII (1945), though i prefer we stick to the original definition of "modern conflicts" as 20th-21st centuries. Unless anybody expresses disagreement, i would add the conflicts since 1900CE including both world wars.Greyshark09 (talk) 11:14, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. But there were many imperialist campaigns in the middle east so perhaps it would be better to create an additional graph titled "1900-1945." Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:39, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, lets stick to post WWII conflicts, and add another table with pre-1945 imperialist conflicts.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:33, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have time to create a whole new graph. If you want to get started, I suggest you edit in userspace and then move it to the article. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've already started it with WWI, WWII, but of course much more to be added. I shall put some work into it later.Greyshark09 (talk) 09:37, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is a good progress, tables are taking shape. Thanx for cooperation. Greyshark09 (talk) 18:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Casualties in Arab-Israeli conflict[edit]

The death toll of 51,000 is correct for 1950-2007, thus not including the 1948 Palestine War (about 16 thousand casualties from both sides) and the 2008 Gaza offensive (about 1300 casualties), yet including the 2nd Lebanese war of 2006 (about 2000 casualties). I propose we fix by referring to another source with casualty numbers beginning with 1948. In addition the Arab-Israeli conflict involving Arab League ended with the peace agreement between Israel and Egypt in 1978 (also Israel-Jordan in 1993). Later those are 2 separate conflicts: Israeli-Palestinian conflict 1987-present, and Israeli-Lebanese conflict (involving Syria) 1978-2006.Greyshark09 (talk) 06:20, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should keep it simple, lol. If we only mention the Arab-Israeli conflict, one can go there and read that Jordan and Egypt are no longer at war with Israel. As for the casualties, I think you're right. UltimateDarkloid (talk) 15:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is the point - the Arab Israeli conflict in its initial form is long over. Now the "leader" of anti-Israeli axis is no longer Arab country, but Iran. In few years the Gaza offensive of 2008 and Lebanon 2nd war, as well as Yemen insurgency might be considered all part of another conflict with Iran and its allies - Syria, Hizbullah, Hamas and Huthis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greyshark09 (talk • contribs) 17:34, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Arab-Israeli conflict includes 1948 Palestine War. The 2nd Lebanon War is not part of the Arab-Israeli conflict, I don't know why ultimate darkloid deleted it. The raids in Lebanon are part of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Lebanon as a state has rarely declared war on Israel, but her sovereignty has often been the staging ground for conflicts. Reverting ultimate's edits a 3rd time would be considered edit-warring and might result in a block. Wikifan12345 (talk) 20:06, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wikifan12345, Of course the Arab-Israeli conflict includes 1948 War, but look at the numbers of casualties - first citation includes victims between 1950-2007, while second citation 1945-1995. I also find it problematic that you show both Arab-Israeli conflict 1948-present as well as Israeli-Palestinian conflict 1948-present. It distorts the numbers, since victims of Israeli-Palestinian conflict are included in the Arab-Israeli conflict. I propose we put the Arab-Israeli conflict dating to 1948-1978 (until Peace agreement Israel-Egypt, no other war followed between Israel-Arab League as a hall till now), and additional 3 conflicts - the Lebanese Civil War from 1975-1990 (including Israel and Palestinian Territories), Israeli-Palestinian conflict 1987-present (including 2 intifadas, Hamas suicide campaign in 1990s and Gaza War) and the Second Lebanese War 2006. This way the conflicts are much better defined in time and casualties, as well as arenas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greyshark09 (talk • contribs) 06:59, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We should stick with what the sources say and not invent our own criteria. The Arab-Israeli conflict is independent of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The casualties of the Arab-Israeli conflict (~65k) does not include casualties of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Lebanon Civil War was triggered independent of Israel, and most of the fighting involved intra-Arab parties with Israel largely behind the scenes until 82. Lumping the lebanon civil war into the Arab israeli conflict is simply not supported by what reliable sources tell us. The 2nd Lebanon War is considered to be a unique conflict between Israel and Hezbollah, independent of the Arab League and Palestinians. It wouldn't be fair to load up the article by enumerating every battle and conflict of the Israeli-Arab war. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:12, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We agree on most matters. Yet, it seems, the death toll sources include the Palestinian casualty numbers in Arab-Israeli conflict. Lebanon Civil War is indeed a separate conflict in my opinion too (though at the end it involved Israel). Yet, again some of its casualties are included in Arab-Israeli and Israeli-Palestinian death toll above, and according to what you say (i agree) we should separate between casualty numbers. 2nd Lebanon War is a separate conflict - agreed, yet the 1st citation of Arab-Israeli death toll (1950-2007) includes it, which is problematic. In conclusion, i have a problem with the death toll citations, while we mostly agree on the definitions. I do insist however that we limit the arab-Israeli conflict to 1948-1978 and find an appropriate source. It is not logical to determine the conflict by popular death toll numbers. Therefor, i shall run the numbers myself, see how they add up and bring them here to discuss.Greyshark09 (talk) 07:33, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You used an incorrect citation on Israeli-Palestinian casualty number, please edit this, and don't just undo my remark, which is compliant to W-5P policy Greyshark09 (talk) 11:46, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You removed 3 separate sources in addition to the actual conflict. A simple [citation needed] would have sufficed. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:37, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, i removed only 1 source, which you doubled. Anyway, the number itself is included in Arab-Israeli conflict casualties in the brought sources, so i find it wrong in such context. Please consider this.Greyshark09 (talk) 06:52, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I found 2 citations about the casualties of Israeli-Palestinian conflict apart, 13,500 and 14,500. I didn't find source for 18,500, yet i kept it at your request.Greyshark09 (talk) 14:52, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Definition of middle east[edit]

There are 2 Middle East modern definitions, one classical and one modern. Greater middle east is usually used today (G8 definition). The Greater Middle East includes the Fertile Crescent, Turkey, Cyprus, North Africa, Afghanistan and Pakistan. If we describe Afghanistan and Pakistan conflicts, one should also describe Algeria and Sudan. Or else we should remove those too Greyshark09 (talk) 06:20, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikifan12345, i'm awaiting your reply of the Middle East definition - whether we remove Afghanistan conflicts (which is in Wide Middle East), or add the north Africa conflicts (also included in Wide Middle East) to fit an official definition.Greyshark09 (talk) 07:10, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sudan and Algeria are not commonly referred to as part of the middle east. Virtually every major media source places countries west of Egypt as African and independent of the ME. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:36, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fine, i have no problem with defining Middle East by classical definition, but then you should remove Afghanistan, which is central Asia.Greyshark09 (talk) 06:55, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it was removed before and then deleted. Parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan are included in this graphic of the middle east Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:13, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The map does not include Pakistan and Afghanistan. Yet, it does include Sudan and Erithrea. Here is Traditional and Wide Middle East Greyshark09 (talk) 11:14, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Look towards the east, the borders of Pak/Af are seen. Personally, I'm totally against including wars fought by countries located beyond the traditional borders of what is considered to be the middle east - which ends at Egypt, Yemen, Iran and Lebanon (possibly Turkey). Perhaps a 3rd party or editor that is more involved in ME-related articles could weigh in. Wikifan12345 (talk) 11:44, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with traditional middle east (Fertile crescent and Arabia), but the definition should be continuous in the page. Let's delete Afghanistan then, and state that the definition is traditional Middle East, what do you say ?Greyshark09 (talk) 19:31, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Conflict scale[edit]

There might be a difficulty to list all modern conflicts, because of multiplicity of such (i've added dozens in the past few days). Would it be better to focus on significant ones, beginning with at least 100 casualties (applies to all listed conflicts at present page), or even 1,000 casualties? Greyshark09 (talk) 14:52, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

100 should be the minimum if the article does not refer to itself as a conflict/insurgency/whatever. Wikifan12345 (talk) 08:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It applies to all listed conflicts (except South Yemen insurgency, which was 70+ earlier this year and climbing fastly, so it is already around 100). Maybe in the future we should reconsider this to higher number, but for now it works - agreed.Greyshark09 (talk) 11:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sortable feature[edit]

Something changed in an edit that disrupted the sortable ability but I can't figure it out Grey.

This is the last edit where you can cycle through the casualty data correctly.

Now you can't. I'm comparing added and removed content but it must be something small because I don't see it. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:58, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikifan, was it the Israeli-Palestinian conflict casualty rate, which you corrected ? One more thing - i did an extensive edit before seeing your remark, adding many more conflicts, some of which are still without casualties rate, so i wrote question sign, it might disrupt the sorting too. What shall i write instead of '?' ?Greyshark09 (talk) 08:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not even sure if that submission qualifies as a conflict. From the article it says a dozen or so generals were tortured to death, but I just skimmed it. Better to find data before actually adding a topic. However, I don't think that is what affected the sortable feature. This is before my latest edit and your recent addition. Still no go. What changed exactly? Wikifan12345 (talk) 08:45, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
you linked a version with disrupted "Israeli-Palestinian conflict", i think the question signs are doing the problem now. I don't have time right now to go over so much literature to add casualty numbers to all, so perhaps i remove those into my space until i bring actual numbers.Greyshark09 (talk) 08:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The last link above is the version before I added anything recent to the article. I don't think it's the ? because the problem is still there. Wikifan12345 (talk) 09:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I found out that + could do the problem, so i removed it, but apparently there is something else. Now i see there is some problem in sorting by range definition of hundreds to thousands like 946-2,000, while 1,000-2,000 works fine, but i'm not sure it is the only problem here.Greyshark09 (talk) 09:35, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, thats it - all the numbers should be in the same format, so it could be either all are thousands or either all millions, etc. We could remove all conflicts below 1,000 casualties or round them up, but what should we do with millions i still don't know.Greyshark09 (talk) 10:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rounding makes sense but are you sure that is the problem? Wikifan12345 (talk) 10:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
After i tried to build new tables on my user space, i could identify a possible cause of the glitch in algorithm, but i'm still puzzled how to fix this. I assume from those tables that using range estimation does the mess, but i don't understand why. Indeed the plus sign is also part of the problem, but my previous assumption regarding rounding up to thousands was probably untrue. I shall remove the pluses, but it is not the hall problem.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is so frustrating. It must have been happened in one of your larger edits because the sortable worked fine prior. I guess we'll have to keep trouble shooting. It probably one of the most important parts of the article. Makes it impossible to compare conflicts without it..
I got something - it seems using citations inside the numeric column messes up the sorting too. After moving citations to string column - it works sorting from high to low casualties. Strangely it still doesn't sort from low to high... Greyshark09 (talk) 11:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
wikifan, that is it - we should remove citations from numeric column. It fixes the sorting. I propose we assign citations into conflict name column instead.Greyshark09 (talk) 10:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You mean move the sources to the year of conflict column? If that is the solution I support it. Wikifan12345 (talk) 10:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, i mean move sources to the conflict (string column), because if we put it in year of conflict column then it might disrupt it's sorting too (numeric column).Greyshark09 (talk) 12:39, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All right. Wikifan12345 (talk) 13:31, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto, It works now.Greyshark09 (talk) 09:01, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Back to basics - defining conflicts[edit]

Wikifan, we have already discussed some of this issue, but i would like to go on better defining the arab-israeli conflict. I think since the only prolonging conflicts today are Israeli-Palestinian and Israel-Hizbullah (both defined in the list), there is no point in saying Arab-Israeli conflict is still going on today, since it was over in 1973 in its original form as "Israel against the arab league" (Israel-Egypt,Jordan are in peace and all others are in cease fire) and its casualties were about 65,000, unchanged since 1973 war. In addition we should take "second Lebanese war" (Tamuz war) add it up with South Lebanon conflict (1982–2000) (not included in 1st Lebanese civil war) into Israel-Hizbullah conflict spanning from 90s till today.Greyshark09 (talk) 13:02, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with your proposal is there is no such thing as an on-going "Israel-Hezbollah" war. Also, the Arab-Israeli conflict is still active on a technical basis. Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and some other Arab nations are "enemy states" and continue to be in a declared state of war. There has never been a formal truce or treaty aside from contracts with Jordan/Egypt/PLO. While I agree with you the conventional conflict is long done, mainstream sources do not say the war is over. The Second Lebanon War cannot be split into the SL conflict because both conflicts involved different military objectives and are no related in the same sense as Six Day War, Yom Kippur War, etc. Do you see what I'm getting at? Wikifan12345 (talk) 14:13, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The same way as you defined Saudi Arabia, Syria and Lebanon being in state of war with Israel (with no military actions except some Syrian-Israeli clushes in 1982 and 2000), so the Israeli-Hizbullah conflict is in official state of war, even though it is silent for 4 years. I do think the Tamuz War should come together with 2000-2005 Shabaa farms tensions and S.Lebanon warfare 1982-2000 as part of Israeli-Hizbullah conflict, since all present a confrontation of Lebanese Shias with Israel, which was unexistent in the first part of Civil War 1975-1990 (Hizbullah founded in 1982). Again i do not want to split2nd Lebanese War, but to merge it with 1982-2000 S.Lebanon conflict (about 2,000 casualties, mostly not included in Lebanese civil war casualty census) and 2000-2005 Shabaa farms tensions (few dozens of casualties - "low fire" conflict). Even though the state of war might still be intact in some cases, we usually do not treat it as a prolonging conflict if there were no casualties. For example the Turkish-Armenian conflict was long over, but the "state of war" officially ended just in the recent years, and yet we do not deal with this conflict after 1923. Hence, i propose we post Arab-Israeli conflict 1948-1973 with ~65K casualties, Israel-Hizbullah conflict 1982-2006 (or present, doesn't matter) with ~4K casualties. Other conflicts remain defined the same.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:05, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understand what you think - but what editors think is irrelevant. Mainstream sources (reliable sources) do not see the july war a continuation of the south lebanon conflict. If we were to mess around with the Hezbollah stats, it would be the equivalent of merging every war fought between the Iraq and the Kurd into a single "Iraq-Kurdish war" column. Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:13, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
July war is accepted both in Lebanon and Israel and the continuation of 2000-2005 Shabaa dispute and earlier 1982-2000 S.Lebanon conflict. Hizbullah - Israel warfare is of course different from Civil War in Lebanon (though overlaps), which is indeed a very different conflict. There was a continous tension with Hizbullah, no peace agreements signed (only fragile cease fires), and in my opinion it is not over yet. Regarding the Israeli-arab conflict i saw a good way to separate the events of Israeli-Arab and Israeli-Palestinian conflicts, see link. Indeed the beginning of the conflict was arab-jewish in palestine and middle east, as in 1947-1948 there was no "palestinian" entity referred for arabs. It only emerged with PLO in 1964-1965. I think the definition should be Jewish-Arab conflict (historical until WWII) Israeli-Arab conflict (1947-1973) and Israeli-Palestinian/PLO/Hamas conflict (1964-today) and separately Civil War in Lebanon (1975-1990, including Palestinian-Israeli casualties, not including Hizbullah-Israel struggle casualties). Yet, i'm not scholar, and indeed there should be academic support to my claims, and better a majority. Though the current definition of both arab-israeli and arab-palestian conflicts is overlapping and lasting too long detouched from reality, the same if we would define Yemen civil war since 1962 to 2010 or define Iraqi-Kurdish wars from 1961-2003.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say your opinion is in the minority and if what you said was true other wikipedia articles on the Arab-Israeli conflict would say the same. I don't know why you want to change things - people relate to what they know, merging conflicts in user-defined categories is not supported by precedent and guidelines. Arab-Zionist conflict is used more than Arab-Jewish because not everyone in the IDF is Jewish. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:57, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Arab-Jewish conflict evolved much before IDF or any other military Zionist organization existed. Regarding the 2006 war, why do you imply it is a separate conflict than Israeli-Hizbullah conflict? And why isn't it a part of Arab-Israeli conflict ?Greyshark09 (talk) 16:19, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Changing order[edit]

It is a sort of weird thing the order is first a list of 1945-today conflicts and later 1900-1945, so i propose to change the order for better chronology description.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:09, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed the order to chronologic.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:11, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Chronology - periods[edit]

Apparently, a scholar definition of modern period is usually defined as post-Ottoman (after collapse of the Ottoman Empire - WWI). Some sources also relate to modern period as post middle ages (modern includes Ottoman and post-Ottoman periods). It seems modern as post-Ottoman is the best definition, thus i removed Ottoman period conflicts and updated the same timescale in List of conflicts in the Middle East.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:01, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Iraq war?[edit]

The 2003 iraq war should include the US led coalition of the willing. Right now i feel it just implies that the conflict is only iraq and its kurd minority, this is obviously not the full picture. Megatonman (talk) 12:34, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The list title says location (territory or state), not participants (armies of states). Certainly the war is not on US territory. Yet, if you already mention it, i think only Syria can be added, if you count several American strikes against insurgents on Syrian territory.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:24, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

arab spring casualties[edit]

846 in egypt 1,440-1,797 in syria 967-1,025 in yemen 2 in saudi arabia 2-6 in oman 18 in iran 36 in iraq 2 in jordan that's 3303-3732

the casualties should be updated --99.62.37.253 (talk) 04:14, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source? WikifanBe nice 04:17, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikifan, long time!Greyshark09 (talk) 18:53, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yup. WikifanBe nice 21:36, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

the caualties are the ones on the articles so if they have accurate sources they should be fine--99.62.35.119 (talk) 03:10, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you add them with appropriate external sources, then its fine.Greyshark09 (talk) 13:23, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This page is laughable[edit]

This page is laugahble. I came here to find out the exact year of the war that occurred in 1972 or 1973 - it is not even listed here - neither is the Six Day War th when is a s activated baecyse it wassubmisted to say a wearter.at occurred in, what was it, 1967 or 1968? Anyway, it's not on here either so I can't find the exact year. This page is terrible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.15.227 (talk) 08:07, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This page is indeed laughable. About the exact years of the wars ... 1973 (covered at Wikipedia under the Israeli name Yom Kippur War) and 1967 (covered at Wikipedia, also under the Israeli name, the Six-day war. This list is also missing other Wars involving Israel, including the 1956 Suez war (covered under the euphemism Suez crisis), the 1982 Lebanon War, and 1996 Qana massacre, among others. Tiamuttalk 10:00, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is a list of conflicts, and all relevant are included with casualties. Look at the bottom of the page for specific wars within spanning conflicts. If you have a specific claim pls raise it, but it should be clear that this is not a list of battles or every single war within the larger Turkish War of Independence, Iran-Iraq War, Arab-Israeli Wars or PKK-Turkish conflict. You are welcome to laugh by the way.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:28, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The total deaths count has been put into references section up until now. In order to improve readibility and reduce claims of "original research", i'm transferring the info into appropriate section of "conflicts ranked by total deaths".Greyshark09 (talk) 20:50, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Grey is correct and I hope Tiamut would amend such an unsubstantiated opinion. The Yom Kippur War and 67, etc are all covered under Arab-Israeli conflict. The wars you listed are unique conflicts but as far as this article is concerned they are merely a series of wars within one unique (Arab-Israeli) war. If editors were to enumerate every campaign or theater in an historic conflict the article would be as long as the bible. WikifanBe nice 07:38, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But the different wars and conflicts of the Arab-Israeli conflict are distinct from each other. The Arab-Israeli War of 1948, Suez War, Six-Day War, Yom Kippur War, and Second Lebanon War are all separate conflicts with clearly defined beginnings and ends. I think it's a misleading overgeneralisation to consider them all the same conflict. I think listing the Cold War or Second Thirty Years' War (a term that includes both World Wars and the smaller European wars between them) in our list of conflicts in Europe would be the same thing, and we obviously don't do that.
This list should split the Arab-Israeli conflict into several points: The distinct, wars between Israel and Arab countries, and a single list entry for the longterm Israeli–Palestinian conflict, which has been going on continously and can't be broken down to separate conflicts in the same way as the wars between Israel and sovereign Arab states.
The same thing goes for the Arab Spring, I think. The 2011-2012 Egyptian revolution, 2011 Yemeni revolution, Bahraini uprising (2011–present), and Syrian civil war are only loosely connected to each other. 96T (talk) 20:40, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is a list of conflicts, not a list of distinct wars.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:48, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but grouping all the distinct and very different Arab-Israeli conflicts under one entry is an extreme generalisation. All conflicts can be seen as part of deeper, more abstract conflicts, but using too general terms isn't fruitful. 96T (talk) 23:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arab revolt in Palestine[edit]

Removed the following sources to be verified: <ref name=combined>Combined Patai, 1971, p.59.</ref><ref name=levenberg>Levenberg, 1993, pp. 74–76.</ref><ref>Hughes, M. (2009) ''The banality of brutality: British armed forces and the repression of the Arab Revolt in Palestine, 1936–39''. English Historical Review Vol. CXXIV No. 507, 314–354.</ref><ref name=morris160>Morris, 1999, p. 160.</ref>. Left only David Charles, which claims a specific number 5,000.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:05, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Pilgrim killing[edit]

I removed the killing of Iranian pilgrims from this page. I don't think single events unrelated to any wider conflict should be listed here.VR talk 07:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, massacres definately qualify for conflicts, especially if they inflict hundreds of casualties. See Hama massacre.Greyshark09 (talk) 07:01, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fatalities[edit]

@Skycycle, please notice that your recent edit of the fatalities column disrupted the "order" option. We cannot use "+" or "up to" in this column due to algorithm constraints. Please correct this to plain numbers or ranges "580" or "580-600" is good for example, but "500+" disrupts the function. Thank you.Greyshark09 (talk) 09:31, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Read and understood, thanks for making that clear! Skycycle (talk) 17:43, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your repair, but apparently even though we have tried to fix it - it is still not working. See the above discussion on sortable feature in this regard. I shall try again later on.Greyshark09 (talk) 10:15, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edit by 96T[edit]

@96T, i have mistakenly identified your edit as an unconstructive, for which i apologize. I shall not revert you. The only thing i think should be corrected is restoring Iraqi Kurdistan, because autonomies with separate governments are essentially separate entities (like PNA).Greyshark09 (talk) 21:33, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know. There are at least two fundamental differences between Iraqi Kurdistan and the Palestinian National Authority: First, Iraqi Kurdistan does not claim to be a sovereign state; and second, the territories fully or partly administered by the PNA are not part of any sovereign state. If we write "Iraq", that includes Iraqi Kurdistan. But if we wrote only "Israel", that would not cover the Palestinian territories, which are not part of Israel according to the international community.
Then again, it does make sense to list non-independent territories instead of sovereign states in some cases, for example it's better to write that the Great Syrian Revolt took place in Greater Lebanon and the State of Syria than to write that it took place in France. It's difficult to know where to draw the line. Personally, I think it's best to list non-independent terrotiries when they are disputed or of unclear international status (Western Bank, Gaza Strip) and when they are overseas colonies (Greater Lebanon, British Mandate), and to list only the sovereign state when the terrotiry is part of the mainland (Iraqi Kurdistan). 96T (talk) 13:08, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to split the Arab Spring entry[edit]

This article currently lists the Arab Spring as a single conflict. I don't think that's correct. The different conflicts of the Arab Spring are clearly related, in that protesters/rebels in Arab countries are inspired by each other and in that Arab regimes interfere in conflicts in other countries, but the Arab Spring is better understood as a series of similar conflict than as a sole conflict. Our article on the Arab Spring defines it as "a revolutionary wave of demonstrations and protests", and a revolutionary wave isn't a conflict; it's several conflicts.

According to the article conflict (process), a conflict is "the process by which parties with differing wishes each believe that the others will or is acting against them, and engage in behavior seeking to damage the other party". The Arab Spring not a single conflict because the parties differ widely from country to country. Compare with "super-conflicts" such as the Cold War or the Arab-Israeli Conflict: In these conflicts, the parties were roughly the same in each sub-conflict. A pro-American state or group vs. a pro-Soviet one in the Cold War, the State of Israel vs. Arab states or Palestinian groups in the Arab-Israeli conflict. Such generalisations can't be done with the Arab Spring. Sure, the conflict in each country can be broken down to regime vs. protesters/rebels, but the regimes of different states aren't allied, neither are the rebels. Different actors choose different policies from country to country: For example, Qatar and Saudi Arabia sided with the rebels in Libya and Syria, but with the regime in Bahrain.

Also, almost two years after the initial wave of protests, the different Arab Spring conflicts have less and less in common. Can the popular risings of Egypt and Tunisia, the short civil war in Libya, the state collapse in Syria, and the limited protests in Saudi Arabia and Oman really be considered parts of the same thing anymore?

My proposal is this: List the Arab Spring conflicts that have claimed over 100 lives - the Bahraini Uprising, Egyptian Revolution, Syrian Civil War, and Yemeni Revolution in this article; and the Egyptian Revolution, Libyan Civil War, and Tunisian Revolution over at List of modern conflicts in North Africa - separately, and remove the others, which are not full-blown conflicts by this article's definition. 96T (talk) 13:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tough issue indeed. I think we should follow the general agreements of the Arab Spring article, which includes all demonstrations events of 2011 (including those deteriorating into rebellions) as part of the Arab Spring, but referring differently to the fallout events, like the North Mali conflict, the Sinai Insurgency and the 2011-2012 Lebanese conflict. I hence support to add the 2011-2012 Lebanon conflict to this article (Sinai insurgency already listed), while adding the North Mali conflict to the "List of modern conflicts in North Africa". On another note, it is too early to decide whether those events are linked or not - only history tells that the Japanese occupations of Asia and German Nazi expansions were in fact a single conflict - WWII.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. I'm not denying that the conflicts are linked, though - they obviously are - but I don't think they're the same conflict. I don't think it'd break with agreements on the Arab Spring article to list the conflicts separately, either. That article doesn't claim that they are part of the same conflict, but part of a revolutionary wave. For what it's worth, the list of ongoing military conflicts list the Arab Spring conflicts separately, too.
As for the 2011–2012 conflict in Lebanon, it hasn't produced 100 casualties (at least not fatalities), and as such doesn't meet the criteria for inclusion here as stated in the lead section. Let's hope it stays that way. 96T (talk) 17:06, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Lebanon conflict is already 89 casualties, unfortunately it looks spiking up.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:20, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -Not all components of the Arab Spring were violent conflicts. Some of the countries only experienced protests. Putting the entire Arab Spring in this list is very misleading. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 21:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Global security approach is including the Arab Spring as a conflict [1].Greyshark09 (talk) 22:28, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If we categorize the Arab Spring as a "conflict" (I'm not sure how this page defines it, I prefer to only include "armed conflicts"), then we're gonna have a long list of countries in the "Location" column. Currently, several countries are missing. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 22:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This list is including the affected countries in the Middle East; the rest can be found at List of conflicts in North Africa. From same reason we don't write all the countries affected by WWII here, but only in the Middle Eastern theatre.Greyshark09 (talk) 14:38, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

West Asia[edit]

Middle east is an European and western word,to them China,Korea,Japan are far east,for us Asians Middle East is not suitable,instead the term West Asia is better.Basically and geographically this area is part of Asia continent,and it is situated in West part of Asia.So it should West Asia,it is better.Ovsek (talk) 11:10, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The term "Middle East" is used in many Asian languages as well. --131.111.184.8 (talk) 23:05, 11 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
West Asia will however include the Caucasus. We can try to rename, but it is not going to be easy.GreyShark (dibra) 22:19, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits[edit]

Regarding recent edit attempt, then Turkish protests are too small to be included (below 100 casualties, and hopefully remain this way). Lebanon War of 2006 is already in the list, part of Arab-Israeli conflict. We may also relocate it to the Iran-Israel proxy conflict, but the table should include only the larger context conflict.GreyShark (dibra) 22:19, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Different Centuries require different articles[edit]

I split the article into two: The 20th Century and the 21st. The reason is that, aside from the different centuries, the conflicts are somewhat different in each century. Aside from WW2, where the Arabs just stood aside while the UN and the Axis went at it, all the conflicts in the region (except in Iraq, where the British put down a pro-Nazi revolt) were either against Israel or internal conflicts.

Starting in 2000 (the Cole incident), Al Qaeda brought the US into the region, destablising the entire region. The Arab Spring changed the region irrevocably, leading to the current regional war that's upon us today. If the unnamed Arab countries that allegedly have signed on to do airstrikes in Syria and Iraq actually do so, ISIS or Syria might strike back in those countries (Jordan and Turkey?) and we're going to have to change this list yet again.Ericl (talk) 13:28, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The split makes sense, anyone object if I add "20th century" in brackets to the article title? I came here and was briefly confused why no conflicts post-1999 were listed, even with the note it would be more clear if the article title reflected the 20th century only status. Maxkin Talk to me 17:42, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Disagree - why is this division to centuries? Modern begins in 1918 as post-Ottoman era and certainly there was nothing happening in 1999 to define a "new era" in the Middle East. Pure original research.GreyShark (dibra) 22:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Recent editwar[edit]

Despite the fact that you have ignored the request to discuss your continued blocking of attempts to improve this article (diff), I am highlighting the various errors in the article that are being changed and you are reverting:

  1. Despite the fact that "Wikipedia articles cannot be sources", the figure currently in the article for casualties in the region is unsourced and clearly inflated. Your reverts are inserting uncited and incorrect information into the article.
  2. It should be further noted that the smaller figure is also given further down the article in the "Casualties breakdown" section, somewhat based off the articles in question and with proper inline citations, rendering your argument somewhat hypocritical and thus reverting to a state that inserts contradictory and unsourced information into the article.
  3. You are reverting to a version that contains a request for verification from 2011: a inline citation that lacks any proper reference further in the article, not to mention it is highly doubtful that it actually supports the high casualty figure and all the various locations where fighting took place all on the one page the inline citation states.
  4. You are removing the list of the actual fighting, campaigns, and wars that took place: the whole point of this article (as the article, which you keep reverting back to, does not cover them all).
  5. Despite Egypt, at the time, having territory in the Middle East, no fighting took place on Egyptian territory (in the Middle East). Its placement in this part of the article is unwarranted.
  6. The link to the French mandate covers the entire territory that saw hostilities during part of the fighting in the Middle East, the Syrian Republic and Greater Lebanon are only parts of it. This is personal preference choice and it does not really matter if this is retained or not.
  7. There are several minor points that have been caught up as part of this back and forth - that I did not insert - and your complete rollbacks, which may also need to be looked at.

Regards 165.166.215.220 (talk) 20:46, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Orphaned references in List of modern conflicts in the Middle East[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of modern conflicts in the Middle East's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Abrahamian":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 21:29, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Modern[edit]

I changed modern from post-Ottoman to post-WWI, because Ottomans didn't rule the entire Middle East and because Ottomans nominally lasted until 1922. World War I was global and ended in 1918, marking a very clear point of time.GreyShark (dibra) 16:57, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have modifed it to "from the start of the 20th Century." - the first conflict started prior to WW1, the second is WW1.... 198.102.219.141 (talk) 10:11, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Kurdish-Turkish conflict with regards to the most recent happenings - Rojava[edit]

One could argue that the conflict of the Turkish Army with the Kurdish people living in Syria could be added to the Kurdish-Turkish conflict besides only Iraqi Kurds. References are e.g Operation Peace Spring --Noabre2 (talk) 12:30, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[1][reply]

Kurdish-Turkish conflict article is about PKK. There is no activity of PKK in Syria now. Unrelated.GreyShark (dibra) 12:38, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Turkish government thinks that the YPG is a Syrian equivalent to the PKK, so there could possibly be an activity of PKK in Syria. If not it is related because its one of Turkey's reasons for fighting in Syria. [2] And if one still says it is unrelated, then there should be a new category for this ongoing conflict.--Noabre2 (talk) 00:10, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/in-pictures-turkey-s-peace-spring-operation-in-syria-30485
  2. ^ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/17/turkey-claim-syrian-kurds-terrorists-not-isis-ypg-pkk-sdf/

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 November 2019[edit]

Please add 'See also: Casualty recording' as hat template in section below heading 'Casualties breakdown'. Tomatoesarefruit (talk) 15:27, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: It's not clear that the referenced article would be useful to understanding the figures in this section. The type of modern casualty recording discussed in that article post-dates many of the conflicts listed (e.g., WWI Greco-Turkish War, etc.). Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:58, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]


link for 6 day war[edit]

goes to the wrong one — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.59.79.146 (talk) 02:56, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Thank you. Chewings72 (talk) 03:41, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Iraq war & insurgency[edit]

The Iraq war had some estimates that went up to 1,033,000. Also the only around 98 died in the Iraqi insurgency and not 5000 (even if that is just the total casualties it’s not correct) IbrahimWeed (talk) 23:36, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect death tolls[edit]

5000 killed in the iraqi insurgency following 2017? Where are the sources to support that claim? IbrahimWeed (talk) 22:12, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MESSY ARTICLE[edit]

Why is it locked? There are so many mistakes regarding death tolls and names of wars (“Iraqi civil war”, “civil war in Iraq (2006-08)” etc) and there are mistakes on death tolls. If I go on the Iraq war article it says 150k-1m people have died but on this article it says 150k-600k. And in another part of this article it says only 100k-200k. A lot of Wars are lacking as well Ehoah88880 (talk) 16:10, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See also[edit]

The "See also" section lists List of conflicts in the Middle East, which redirects here. Should probably be removed, because it isn't helpful at all. --2003:C4:DF22:E8D9:A54F:5D59:1559:E9CD (talk) 17:34, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 December 2021[edit]

Why are the 1967 Six day war and 1973 Yom Kippour war not mentioned in a wikipedia page about modern conflicts in the middle east? 62.194.44.27 (talk) 23:01, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. If there's no specific change ready, just open a talk page discussion. Edit request isn't needed for that. --Hemanthah (talk) 05:39, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not the OP above, but I did have the same question.
I propose this page should be edited (or a separate page created) listing modern "wars" (or other agreed-upon term) in the Middle East, to supplement this list of "conflicts." The listed "wars" would be relatively brief periods of intense violence, even if part of a longer "conflict."
This would be useful, as the discussions on this talk page show that the present list does not readily and clearly convey all the details commonly expected by readers (the dates and other facts of "wars" such as the 1967 and 1973 Arab-Israeli fighting).
Note, I do not propose redefining the current definition of the Arab-Israeli conflict beginning in 1948. That definition would stand together with additional information regarding "wars" during that long-running "conflict." My suggestion is merely that additional information be provided, whether on this page or another page. 2601:582:303:4A40:A08F:DBFA:9CE3:5A84 (talk) 15:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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1936-1939 Palestine Revolt, 1st Intifada and 2nd Intifada[edit]

Hi dear, why Palestinians revolts are not included? Moudinho1996 (talk) 17:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

1967 war missing from list ( Israel)[edit]

6 day war 2605:8D80:1396:6241:E8F4:2EFF:EF02:43B3 (talk) 23:29, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1967 6 day war Israel missing[edit]

The Six-Day War or June War, also known as the 1967 Arab–Israeli War or Third Arab–Israeli War, was fought between Israel and a coalition of Arab states from 5 to 10 June 1967 2605:8D80:1396:6241:E8F4:2EFF:EF02:43B3 (talk) 23:30, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2023-2024 Red Sea Crisis?[edit]

open to discussion--shouldn't the Red Sea crisis be considered a war? if not, there I think it would be reasonable to have some page combining the Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present), Red Sea crisis, Israel–Hamas war, Attacks on U.S. bases in Iraq and Syria (2023–present), et cetera. Dark Energy9 (talk) 14:42, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know they are registered as "spillover of the Israel–Hamas war," but its becoming more than that it seems, and calling it spillover would nearly be equivalent to ww1 being registered as "Spillover of the First Invasion of Serbia" (obviously ww1 was a bit more ignited than what is currently happening in the Middle East). Dark Energy9 (talk) 14:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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