BYLINE: Chris Matthews
GUESTS: Norman Schwarzkopf; John McCain
MATTHEWS: In the "New York Times" this Sunday, former President Jimmy Carter questioned the moral justification for a war in Iraq. Here's what the president wrote.
Quote -- "As a Christian and as a president who was severely provoked by international crises, I became thoroughly familiar with the principles of a just war and it is clear that a substantially unilateral attack on Iraq does not meet these standards."
In today's "New York Times", Senator John McCain of Arizona issued a sharp rebuttal. He wrote - quote - "Our armed forces will fight for peace in Iraq, a peace built on more secure foundations than are found today in the Middle East. Even more important, they will fight for two human conditions of even greater value than peace: liberty and justice."
Senator McCain joins us now. Tell us a little bit more for the people that don't read "The New York Times" either Jimmy Carter's or your -- what's the bottom line difference between you and him on this war on the moral question?
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I think that President Carter throughout his career has been extremely reluctant to use force under any circumstances. I respect that. I had the highest respect for former President Carter, particularly in his post-presidency conduct of his life. But, for example, he says that the bombing will kill innocent civilians, therefore it doesn't -- it makes the war unjustified, and I pointed out in my piece that in World War II, the indiscriminate bombing of Berlin, Dresden, Tokyo, et cetera didn't make that war unjustifiable.
And we are even going to risk the lives of our air crewmen and women in order to minimize the loss of civilian life, and he said that, for example, in his piece, that the bombing would demoralize -- the purpose of the bombing is to demoralize the Iraqi people. It's not. It's to demoralize the Iraqi military and make them not want to fight. That's the whole purpose of it.
MATTHEWS: What do you make of all these religious groups in the country? Carter -- President Carter made the point that most religious groups, the mainstream religions -- that's not even a fair word -- most religious we're familiar with in this country have come out against the war. What do you make of those decisions?
MCCAIN: I respect those. I respect the fact that the envoy of the Pope came and visited with President Bush.
MATTHEWS: But why do you think they're all moved to do that? Is it politics or religion?
MCCAIN: I think it's more religion. I think that someone who has immersed their lives and trying to do good, probably views war as an unacceptable option. There's a belief that we all can get along. When President Carter went to Korea and cut a deal with Kim Il Sung, the then dictator of Korea, I said it's not going to work because it's not verifiable. It turned out it did not work.
But President Carter believed that Kim Il Sung shared his views and his high moral plane and I didn't think that was the case. We saw this all during the Cold War, Chris, in all due respect, and I'm not trying to say that the Iraqi situation is equivalent to it. But we did see religious leaders from all over the world during the Cold War, countenance the nuclear freeze...
MATTHEWS: Right.
MCCAIN: ... all kinds of things like that, and they were sincere, but they were wrong.
MATTHEWS: Are you one of those who holds up an optimistic view of the post-war scene? Do you believe that the people of Iraq or at least a large number of them will treat us as liberators?
MCCAIN: Absolutely. Absolutely.
MATTHEWS: And you think the Arab world will come to a grudging recognition that what we did was necessary? I mean by that the modern Arab leaders, the people that we have to deal with.
MCCAIN: Not only that, they'll be relieved that he's not in the neighborhood because he has invaded his neighbors on several occasions.
MATTHEWS: I sincerely hope you're right Senator. Let me ask you this. Let's talk about the timing of this war. As a military man, I know these are generals' decisions you didn't have to make as a pilot, but everybody is trying to second-guess the president. "The Wall Street Journal" is jumping all over him, saying he ought to get off the pot, more or less, and get moving here.
Do you think there's any time that we should fight and we -- is it coming soon and is it something we shouldn't put off for diplomatic reasons like to get, to put it in a minuscule way, to win the vote of Guinea, the former equatorial, Portuguese equatorial Guinea in Africa. Should we hold up a war for a week or two to get an extra couple of votes in the Security Council?
MCCAIN: I think if that's what our British friends want, even though I don't think it's doing Tony Blair any good to drag it out, but it's clear that he's made a fervent plea to his friend George Bush. Let me just mention one thing real quick. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) front page of "The New York Times" and it was also in "The Washington Post" yesterday, the
USS Abraham Lincoln was on its 283rd day at sea -- 200 -- that's -- you figure the math there.
MATTHEWS: Right.
MCCAIN: Two hundred and eighty-three days at sea, they will be there for a couple of more months. Now that is an incredibly long...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MCCAIN: ... time to keep young -- and remember the age group here -- 19, 20, 21...
MATTHEWS: Right.
MCCAIN: ... 22-year-old...
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: ... young Americans.
MATTHEWS: ... once a month they get two beers and a smoke or something...
MCCAIN: Yes...
MATTHEWS: That's about it, right?
MCCAIN: It's crazy. We've got people out in the desert right now...
MATTHEWS: Right.
MCCAIN: ... living in tents. My point is you just can't keep Americans out there...
MATTHEWS: So you're with "The Wall Street Journal" that there is a limit on how long we can keep troops ready in the field, and is that early -- would you say early April or how late would you go in that?
MCCAIN: I'd have to leave that up to the military commanders, but I believe that every military expert would say that after a certain period of time, things really begin to deteriorate as far as combat capability is concerned, but I don't know...
MATTHEWS: Is it worth waiting for Turkey? The good news tonight is we're on the air tonight is that the Turkish prime minister just elected forming a new government, hopes to try to get another vote over there. It's like the U.S. Congress. You try again when you miss by a few votes. Is it worth trying to get the Turkish route? We're looking at it now on the map. It would give us a second front to enter Iraq by the North as well as from Kuwait in the South.
MCCAIN: I think it'd be helpful, very important...
MATTHEWS: Is it worth the wait?
MCCAIN: I can't make that judgment, but I do believe that the fact that Turkey would agree with us would be an important message. It is a secular, but also a Muslim nation.
MATTHEWS: OK, we're going to come right back and talk more with one of my favorite senators, John McCain with whom I occasionally disagree. We'll be right back...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Let's talk about French bashing. We'll have some fun when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Let's talk about the price of freedom here in the country. Senator John McCain, a war hero, POW. Has it come to this? The House of Representatives, the U.S. Congress, in which you serve, they decided that french fries are no longer french fries, that french toast is no longer french toast because of the concern we have about the French. It's now freedom fries and freedom toast. Has it come to this in the House of Representatives?
MATTHEWS: Well what's disturbing is I heard that one of these congressmen was wearing dare I say, French cuffs?
MATTHEWS: Oh no.
MCCAIN: And then, of course, some other inquiring mind asked are we going to call it freedom kissing?
MATTHEWS: Yes and then Catholic schools will no longer outlaw French kissing. It will be freedom kissing and they've always thought there was too much freedom. Let me ask you about this. Seriously, I hate to get serious, it's such a ridiculous joke. But this country has had ties with France since they helped us win the revolution at Yorktown. Washington, when he heard that the French fleet had arrived at the Chesapeake Bay and was going to help us win the big battle of Yorktown to win our independence, jumped up and down and waved his arms he was so thrilled the French had come. And when "Blackjack" Pershing arrived in Paris in World War I with the U.S. Expeditionary Force, he said Lafayette, we are here. This strong bind, is it ever going to come back again with us...
MCCAIN: I think...
MATTHEWS: ... and the French?
MCCAIN: I think it can. I think it will almost immediately with the Germans because in the German case, it was Schroeder trying to seek reelection and playing the anti-American card. The Germans are helping us in Afghanistan, in Kosovo, in Bosnia. They're protecting our bases right now.
The French, it's going to take a little longer, but we have to be very careful. I'm as frustrated with the French, I think, as anyone, but look, there's going to be other challenges and there are going to be other issues. As long as there's a war on terrorism going on, we're all going to have to work together.
MATTHEWS: We need their police.
MCCAIN: And so, we need all of us to work together. I am terribly frustrated, but look, if you want to call them freedom fries, that's fine with me, but after the Iraqi conflict is over, it's going to be in all our interests to start working together again because there's just too many challenges. North Korea, Iran...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MCCAIN: You saw recently the Iranian nuclear build-up that they're...
MATTHEWS: You're a man of vision, Senator. You can see ahead of this mess. Thank you very much Senator John McCain of Arizona. Thanks for watching our special abbreviated version of HARDBALL. Joe Scarborough is coming up next with complete coverage of the safe return of Elizabeth Smart. See you tomorrow.
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