Can Ronaldo prove us wrong again?
It is one of the ancient battles of sport, the struggle between talent and the ravages of time. And it's being fought out as the Brazilian Championship reaches a thrilling finale.
With eight rounds to go - and at least four clubs still in contention - one of the big questions is this: Can he really do it again? Is Ronaldo capable of staging yet another extraordinary comeback?
The previous one came when he joined Corinthians of Sao Paulo, the most popular team in South America's biggest city. Surely now he had suffered one knee injury too many. He was all washed up, a bloated figure living on his reputation. But then he proved us all wrong once again by spearheading Corinthians to last year's Brazilian Cup.
But that was supposed to be the aperitif. The main course was to come this year.
Winning the cup qualified Corinthians for the Copa Libertadores, South America's equivalent of the Champions League. All their local rivals had won it but Corinthians had yet to reach a final. Putting that right in 2010, the club's centenary year, was the dream of every Corinthians fan.
Ronaldo in action for Corinthinians during the Copa Libertadores in May. Photo: Getty Images
But they were knocked out early, losing on away goals to Flamengo of Rio. Rescuing the centenary year - and centenary years are taken very seriously in South America - would mean winning the domestic championship, or at least finishing high enough to ensure qualification for the 2011 Libertadores.
And they would have to do the hard work without Ronaldo. He played - and scored - in the opening round of the championship back in May but then did not reappear until managing an hour in a match at the end of August. Then 45 minutes - and a goal - on 8 September. Then nothing.
His body was in rebellion. Some, especially in Europe, labelled him a dilettante. But this is the man who has scored more World Cup goals than anyone else in the history of the competition - 15 - many of which have come after he forced his way back from injuries that threatened to end his career.
I am reliably informed that Ronaldo's current weight problem is, in part, a consequence of the medication he needs to soothe his battered knees.
As far as Corinthians were concerned, the absence of Ronaldo hardly seemed to matter. They were even able to shrug off the loss of coach Mano Menezes, who took charge of Brazil shortly after the World Cup. They were on top of the table, apparently in a two-horse race for the title with Fluminense. A place in the Libertadores seemed certain.
But then the wheels fell off. A big part of the problem was the sheer number of games. Out of sync with the rest of the planet, Brazil's ludicrous football calendar is especially insane in World Cup years. While everyone's attention was on South Africa, the local championship shut down for five-and-a-half weeks, leaving a backlog of fixtures to plough through in August and September.
Brazilian squads are not deep enough to permit the kind of rotation practised by European clubs, so, after 15 rounds in seven weeks, players are exhausted, overworked and picking up injuries.
Corinthians suddenly collapsed. In six games, they picked up just two points from two draws and four defeats. They slipped to third - and would have been lower were it not for the fact that their rivals also dropped points.
Coach Adilson Batista was sacked. Delegations of supporters went to the training ground to either encourage or intimidate the players into greater efforts.
Come the crisis, send for Ronaldo. He has always thrived on this type of pressure.
The 2002 World Cup is perhaps the greatest example. Injury kept him out of the entire qualification campaign. Without him, Brazil were a shambles, fortunate even to get to the tournament. With him, it was a different story. He happily took on the responsibility for leading the attack. Rivaldo, so lost without Ronaldo, blossomed in his shadow as Brazil won all their games.
Ronaldo in his prime at the 2002 World Cup. Photo: Getty Images
But that was more than eight years ago. Ronaldo still wants the responsibility and will gladly take the burden off his team-mates. But is he still physically capable of doing so?
The evidence of Sunday's comeback match was inconclusive but promising. Despite intense heat - over 33 degrees - he managed to play the full 90 minutes away to Guarani. It was not the most mobile performance you will ever see from a centre forward but the striking thing about late-career Ronaldo is that when it matters he consistently manages to get in front of the defender.
He was unlucky to have two early goals disallowed. The first, forcing home after a Roberto Carlos cross, was presumably not given for hands. The other, a gorgeous first-time finish with his left foot, was wrongly ruled out for offside.
In the second half, Ronaldo produced a superbly timed run to latch on to a Danilo cross from the left but, with the goal gaping, put his header just wide.
Heading was never Ronaldo's strong suit but laying off intelligent passes for midfield runners is part of his skills set. It is something he has developed during his career, especially when playing alongside Cristian Vieri at Inter Milan forced him to learn how to drop deeper and supply through balls. At Corinthians, he works well with new international midfielder Elias, who likes to break into the box.
Despite Ronaldo's presence, the game with Guarani finished goalless - and Corinthians have now gone seven matches without a win.
Next up is the derby against traditional rivals Palmeiras followed by the trip to Rio to face Flamengo, the club Ronaldo grew up supporting and where the fans feel betrayed by his decision to sign for Corinthians.
These are occasions which Ronaldo will relish - as long as he can show that the battle between talent and the ravages of time can still be decided in his favour.
Comments on the piece in the space provided. Questions on South American football to vickerycolumn@hotmail.com, and I'll pick out a couple for next week.
From last week's postbag:
Q) I was wondering if you watched the Mexico-Venezuela friendly this week. Venezuela pulled out a 2-2 draw, even though they played most of the match a man down. Seeing as the last time these two teams met Mexico ravaged them 4-0, is this result a sign of good things to come from La Vinotinto or just more signs of decline from El Tri?
Diego Pacheco
Mexico might not have been great post-World Cup but this as an excellent result for Venezuela. They didn't create too much - both goals were long-range free kicks from Juan Arango - but, as you say, they were down to 10 men after 23 minutes. Lots of positives - defensive discipline, the handling of new keeper Hernandez. Seems to me that they are getting an interesting squad together with a number of options and they are growing in confidence. It is amazing to think how much progress they have made.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~38~RS~)
A glorious history, a rich culture, a production line of exciting players... South American football is endlessly fascinating. I cover the continent from my base in Rio.
© MMX
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Ronaldo in his prime was an awesome thing to watch - the way he took on entire defences singlehandedly and steamrollered through them was breathtaking.
Good luck to him if he has an Indian summer / fairytale ending to his career - he deserves it after all the injuries he's had.
The only problem I had with him was his ridiculous haircut in the 2002 World Cup - as illustrated in the picture above.
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Ronaldo was a truly great striker - in his prime I'd argue he was a cross between Romario and Eusebio- he had Romario's clinical finishing and flair combined with Eusebio's pace, power and dribbling. Some people might prefer the deft technical touch of a Van Basten or the sheer force of a Batistuta/Shearer/Drogba but for my money Ronaldo is the greatest striker of the last 20 years.
His brilliance is just shown by the fact that arguably due to injuries he never reached his full potential!!! Even after his knee ops he was a brilliant player, and he was still scoring goals when overweight at the 2006 World Cup.
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It is great to see legendary players like Ronaldo (& Verón) still playing back in South America for the love of the game, when they could easily retire to a life of wealth and luxury (or earn even more millions playing in some Arabian vanity league or the MLS).
In Argentina the "old men" Martín Palermo and former Derby County player Esteban Fuertes both bagged great goals over the weekend.
There is no shortage of attacking talent coming from Brazil and Argentina, but the pick of the crop are nabbed by European clubs every transfer window, leaving the door open for the older generation to fill their boots.
http://southamerican-futbol.blogspot.com/
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Ronaldo was the best striker I have ever seen with my own two eyes. Full stop. The power of Drogba, the pace of the fake ronaldo and the dribbling ability of messi, along with the best eye for goal since gerd muller. An absolute machine!
And totally agree with #3. At least hes playing somewhere for the passion where there is passion for the game. This man doesnt deserve to be playing in the UAE.
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For a while in the late '90s we were lucky enough to have a few strkers on the world stage who were absolutely world-class practitioners of their trade. Shevchenko, Shearer, Raul and obviously Ronaldo were an absolute joy to watch (feel free to add others from this period). All players who went about the business of scoring a hatful of goals but in completely contrasting fashions.
Ronaldo managed to combine the best elements of the other three to become something close to the complete striker. For any player to come back from the torment of the '98 World Cup final, in which a young lad was used as a porn by those in authority, and the subsequent career threatening injuries to produce performances as he did in 2002 was quite remarkable.
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Apologies, the 'porn' in the second para should obviously read 'pawn'. Arguably one of the most embarrassing typos I've ever made!
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The REAL Ronaldo is the 2nd best player I have ever seen .. 2nd only to Maradona.
I'd place him 3rd overall with Maradona 1st and Pele 2nd. I've seen Ronaldo do things that no other player could, all at blistering pace.
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One of the best performances I have seen ever was a Europacup match between PSV Eindhoven and Bayer Leverkusen. I think PSV lost the match in the end, but the young Ronaldo, who had just joined PSV singlehandedly ridiculed the German defence, scoring 3 goals. He is one of the greatest ever.
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Hi - interested in your comments on the Brazilian league.... I went to the Sao Paulo - Santos "classico" yesterday whilst on a trip to Brazil. Great game with a last minute winner for Sao Paulo to win it 4-3 with 10 men. But I couldn't get over the crowd - the stadium was under half full for an important local derby (still a great atmosphere though). Is this the norm?
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ronaldo is arguably the worlds greatest ever striker-if he had not had his injury worries, this place would probably have been undisputed.this guy used to run riot is Serie A, and just remember the Italian greats of the 90s, maldini included-he even said ronaldo was the best striker he ever played against.and so did buffon.ronaldo thrives in high pressure environments.and another mark of quality-look how overweight he is(whatever the reason), and he still has touch and class that puts many other modern day to shame.whats even more of a shame is that he will retire next year in december.at least he will be one of the greatest ever, if not the greatest striker to grace the beautiful game.
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The most gifted striker of the past 20 years - by some distance.
I had the privilege of watching him live for the first - and, alas, only - time for Inter v Roma at the Olimpico in Easter 98. Although genuine greats such as Aldair, Cafu, Francesco Totti, Javier Zanetti and Giuseppe Bergomi all played in that game, Ronaldo was still heads and shoulders above anyone else, deciding the game in Inter's favour by two outstanding goals.
Then came the World Cup, the pre-Final breakdown, the injuries etc. Although he did make a magnificent comeback to become top scorer at Japan/Korea 02, and subsequently arguably also the most decisive of Real Madrid's Galacticos, I never quite felt he was the irrepressible force of those early days again.
Either way, he belongs to an elite club of truly legendary players never to have won the UEFA Champions League (Roberto Baggio and Lothar Matthäus are others that come to mind): it would be great if he could gain some consolation by lifting the Libertadores before his career comes to an end.
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I hope these last few years are worth it to him. I feel he is going to end up in great pain for the rest of his life and barely able to walk.
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When working in Madrid whilst he was at Real, heard they had a problem with him eating all the magnum icecreams at the training ground. They had to lock the fridge whilst he was there, which suggests he lacked self discipline.
Defenately rubbish in the air hardly seem to even try to get his head onto crosses, couldn't jump.
Best game I remembered him for was his hat trick against Man U, but he had plenty of room in that game because Man U were having to attack as they conceeded three goals in the first leg. It was Figo, Raul and Figo who opened up Man U in the first leg when they were trying to contain Real.
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This article is a good example of my problem with the way Ronaldo is treated by most the media in Brazil:
He earns the highest salary in the history of Brazilian football by far, misses nearly 90% of the games of the team in the Brazilian league, can't lead it's team past round of 16 in the most important tournament for them, does his best to pretend Corinthians problems have nothing to do with him, and then is praised for just touching a football or scoring a disallowed goal. Heck, I swear I've seen him being praised for diving once. No player deserves so much leniency, and no player has ever got it.
Romário, for example, despite being a superior player to him overall and being top scorer of the Brazilian league at 34, 35, and 39, still got worse treatment.
If he does return well, scores many goals, and helps his team wins the league, then he wouldn't be doing anything other than his job.
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What a player - truly amazing!! Him, and Messi, (Sorry too young to remember Maradonna) are the best players I've ever seen, just a shame injuries stopped him from probably becoming the greatest ever!!
Ronaldo had pace, power, skills, dribbling skills,and could play as a team!! He proved in himself in everywhere he played!!
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The few of you above who attempt to put a dampner on Ronaldo & Tim's article, why?
Celebrate one of the greatest footballers of his generation, arguably of all time as others have done.
As a boy (I am just about a man now for those of you that choose to do the math), I remember waiting in my mum's car whilst my sister had her weekly piano lesson, watching the clock, worrying I won't be home in time for any Wednesday night Champions League game Ronaldo was involved in. Whether it be for Barca, Inter or Madrid.
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Mengo2008 @15
Completely agree with you, his fairy tale comeback in 2002 has more or less set him up for the rest of his footballing life. Ronaldo will always be an enigma to me, I personally think the zenith of his career was the one season he had at Barca under Sir Bobby, he was an absolute beast and should've gone on to greater things than the still great things he did achieve. People point to injuries but I think his lack of self discipline had a lot to do with it and contributed to his fragile state. On natural gifts alone he was by far the best of his generation but I always think of what could've been with him. Funny you mention Romario as I've always felt that I'm in the minority of those who'd choose Romario over Ronaldo if I had to pick a best XI from my TV viewing lifetime.
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At his peak, an absoulte machine. Some of his goals during his season at Barcelona were incredible and only injuries prevent him being considered as one of the very best of all time.
Away from football, Ronaldo's incident in the hotel room a couple of years ago with 3 'females' was hilarious.
http://footballfutbolfitba.wordpress.com/
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Will never forget the 96-97 season at Barca under Bobby Robson scoring nearly a goal a game in all competitions. The goal against Alaves when he ran 1/2 the length of the pitch was special - constantly getting hacked and opponents holding his shirt for then to cut inside and beat the keeper - quite simply the best season I've ever seen a player play at that level and considering his age to be performing like that at Barca.
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I would like to echo that the season he played at Barca was phenomenal, the best ever I have seen from a striker.
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For me he is the greatest Striker I have seen in my lifetime and is streets ahead of any other. With Ronaldo he had everything pace, power, accuracy, dribbling all of the highest quality where as many strikers only had the mantle of goal scorer, Ronaldo was so much more he was an absolute destroyer of teams.
My fondest memory of him was in the Champions League, We(United) had Real at Old Trafford and he ripped us to shreds, we went out that night on away goals and it was dissapointing but it was equally a pleasure to watch such a player perform, he is quite rightly the only opposing player to recieve a standing ovation from the United support.
Glad to see he is still playing, he will not get back to his best as injuries have taken their tole but he has had a great career and hopefully he will finish on a high in Brazil
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I've been in the UK for many years now but being a keen Corinthians supporter I have been following Ronaldo very closely in these last years. I echo the hails and am very happy to see so many posts praising this truly great player - his feat in 2002 returning from a horrific injury to lead Brazil and score wonderful goals - the one against Turkey in the semi-final was amazing, the 2 in the final against Germany, no comments - is nothing short of 'phenomenal' to use an adage that Ronaldo is associated with.
I am critical of Brazilian clubs spending over the odds to hold on to players but Ronaldo's signing was a coup for Corinthians in 2009 - it massively increased the club's profile and boosted its revenue in the following seasons, making it the most profitable side in the Brazilian League in terms of sponsorships and gate fees - with the upside of Ronaldo actually playing well in the first season.
I truly did not know that medication is partially to blame for his weight problems, but it is a consolation as I confess I have been disappointed with his failure to achieve fitness this year. I most definitely join all the hopers that Ronaldo will make a last push and lead Corinthians to the League this year, it would be a more than fitting end of career.
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#1
You cant slate him because of a hair cut...The guy was a great player.
The only reason he had that haircut was so his son could pick him out amongst all the yellow shirts on tv during the tounament
All in all though, good article, legendary player
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Ronaldo is the best player that I have seen in my lifetime. I remember, even at the 1994 World Cup, all of the talk about the 17-year-old on the bench who was (as many others have been claimed) the 'New Pele.' His season at Barcelona is probably the best individual season by a player in football history; it just seemed as if an adult had walked onto a boys game in the park - nobody could stop him. I think that it says a lot that even a phenomenon like Messi last season, or Ronaldo at Manchester United a couple of seasons ago only matched Ronaldo's (Brz) levels, rather than exceeded them. The impact caused by the levels he could play at was immense. While other modern greats, like Zidane, Figo etc. may have been more consistent, to me at least, nobody to hit the same heights as Ronaldo did.
It is a genuine football tragedy how his career was affected by injuries and, to varying extents, his vices. While I believe it almost diminishes his titanic achievements on-field to do so, just imagine what he could have been without the aforementioned problems. As for my favourite memory of him, it has to be the memory of Colin Hendry spending the first 20 minutes against Brazil in '98 chasing Ronaldo's shadow; how he didn't score in that game is beyond me (although I'm glad he didn't!).
I do have one question Tim. In your opinion, how will Ronaldo be remembered/rated by the Brazilian and/or South American football world? Where do you see him being ranked? I appreciate that you cannot compare eras very easily, I'm just curious. However, after reading the current issue of World Soccer magazine, I'm guessing Romario won't rate him better than the 3rd best ever Brazilian player.
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One of the greatest players of the modern game, on Zidane comes to mind as a player who would be on a par with Ronaldo. Truly amazing. How good he could have been were it not for all of his injuries we will never know. Despite this he will go down as one of the greatest players ever. A couple of people have already mentioned his performance at Old Trafford. I can't think of any other opposition player ever playing so well at Old Trafford.
His season at Barca was incredible - 34 goals in 37 games as a 20 year old. There are loads of clips on YouTube of him. I suggest anybody who may not be familiar with him checking these out. Messi eat your heart out.
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22. At 12:19pm on 18 Oct 2010, Red_Devil_85 - Sheldon Coopers Therapist wrote:
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Great point and this was in 2003, when he was supposedly past his best.
Look at his record at Madrid during his time there, amazing.
And that night at Old Trafford. Man Utd had an unbelievably good side, top class. However, this man was another few levels above all that, and ahead of his team mate Zidane.
SAF singled him out for praise which also says a lot
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I think Wayne Rooney has already shown himself to be a better player and at the end of his career will be considered a far better ALL round player than Ronaldo.
Wayne Rooney was world class at 16 years of age. Remember that GOAL against Arsenal.
I would have Rooney in my team ahead of Ronaldo at his peak any day of week!!!!
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15 - i think you do have a point, i understand entirely where you are coming from - with its current lack of big name idols, ronaldo is fawned over by the media,and this piece is inclined that way.
all i can say in my defence is that i'm supposed to be writing with a british based audience in mind - and over there in recent years some of the media coverage tried to turn him into a figure of fun - a gross lack of respect for the all time world cup top scorer.
the fact that he still (just about) in action, still putting his body through it, shows that he's a bit more than the playboy stereotype - but thanks for your comment, which has supplied some necessary balance.
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@31 maradona10_handofgod, you must not have read the article. It is about Ronaldo, not Cristiano Ronaldo.
Otherwise you can't be serious.
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I remember watching Ronaldo many years ago playing from Brazil against Chile. I think it was perhaps a WC qualifier or maybe a Copa America game (its so long ago now i forget). It was one of the best displays by a single player I have ever seen. Since then in my mind Ronaldo would make any all time 11. At his best he was unstoppable. The best i've ever seen (i'm too young to remember Maradona)
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#24 That's an interesting explanation for "that" haircut!
Actually, I've always fancied the notion that it played a part in Brazil's win. As soon as the Germans saw him enter the field of play looking like that, they knew in their hearts his confidence was so immense there would be no way of stopping him. And so it proved.
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15 - i don't think i can agree with the romario comment, though. romario was fawned on every bit as much as ronaldo after he came back to brazil at the start of 95 - with disastrous results for his own career.
for 2 years - 95 and 96, romario didn't even care, but still got an easy ride. pride wounded by the rise of ronaldo in late 96, romario came back refreshed in 97 - his talent is beyond question, but as he got older his lack of application took its toll - injury kept him out of the 98 world cup, the knock out stages of the libertadores in 2001. he kept scoring goals - but it was grim statistical accumulation - few of them were important.
on pure achievment i think ronaldo has to be considered superior.
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Ronaldo, what a striker!... with Romario and Batistuta, easily the best strikers I've ever seen.
Who was the best? At this level they were all great and amazing to watch, just enjoy the memories.
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we all love ze Ronaldooooooooo!
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@31 "I would have Rooney in my team ahead of Ronaldo at his peak any day of week!!!!"
LOL, I know you can't possibly be talking about the real Ronaldo but this is still too funny a comment to ignore.
Ronaldo at his peak would've steam-rolled past Rooney, Ferdinand and Co on his way to scoring a hat-trick. (for other teams, just replace the names of the players, but the result would've been exactly the same, at his best, Ronaldo was unstoppable)
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Re: my comment @ 31
I actually know this...the REAL Ronaldo was touched by greatness and a remarkable player who achieved great things and changed his style of play mid career was still a special goal scorer.
Everyone remembers the final for the wrong reasons but the games before he was player of the tournament!!
I just wanted to do an impressiona of the English Media or an Alan Shearer impression.
Good blog Tim.
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@40 LOL, good one
I guess for the english media Rooney was more Maradona-like, so Ronaldo would have to be compared to someone like Crouch ;)
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41
haha crouch good one - exactly my thoughts!!
No wait Crouch was better because he plays in a more physical league....Ronaldo couldnt hack it in england - aye right!!
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Ronaldo was imo the only player who could have been compared to Pele, like for like. Unfortunately, we'll never know if he would have attained the same heights, since his career was sadly blighted by terrible injuries. Nevertheless, he managed to scale impressive heights, leaving an indelible mark in the memory of various posters here. But he is paying a heavy price. I don't know if his clubs ever resorted to medication to bulk him out, as with so many other players, but as Tim points out, he has been on medication due to injuries and pain control that have left their inevitable ravages on his body. When he plays now, you can clearly see that the mind is several steps ahead of those of his opponents, and it's just a question of whether, and for how long, the body can correspond. I just hope that he doesn't end his playing career as some kind of freak show, or spend the rest of his life in pain and with difficulty in just getting around. He has given us all far too much to deserve that. It does raise the question of the price players pay though; the other side of the equation, at a time when we're looking ever more closely at the stupid sums of money so many players receive for giving relatively very little back - especially when compared to the doctors, engineers and other workers making valuable contributions to keeping the world functioning.
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He's just the greatest striker we've seen in the last 20 years, and by far the most skilled.
Anyone that can see him playing TODAY can notice a superior tecnique, that only few players had. His precision and coolness in front of the goal is disturbing, with both feet.
It's a shame he can't do better with such phisical problems.
Obs.: Today's players have a bigger stage to expose themselves and, for this reasen, are overestimated. The only player that can be considered in a similar level of Ronaldo (at his peak) is Messi - although is a different kind of player. Cristiano is arguably almost there, but he lack's something. The rest is pure marketing, You Tube clips player's.
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perhaps i am exaggerating, but ronaldos dribbling skills were, imo, on par with some of the very best dribblers ever.but when you couple that with devastating speed, acceleration, shot power, accuracy, technique, and on top of that an ability to score equally well with both feet.he also was able to pick out passes and assists with ease-i remember him playing with van nistelrooy at real.his only weaknesses (if any) were heading the ball, and perhaps stamina because of his legs.but its the injuries to his knees that have tainted his career.its a crying shame we didnt get to see him play for longer....
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36. At 1:38pm on 18 Oct 2010, Tim Vickery - BBC Sport wrote:
15 - i don't think i can agree with the romario comment, though. romario was fawned on every bit as much as ronaldo after he came back to brazil at the start of 95 - with disastrous results for his own career.
for 2 years - 95 and 96, romario didn't even care, but still got an easy ride. pride wounded by the rise of ronaldo in late 96, romario came back refreshed in 97 - his talent is beyond question, but as he got older his lack of application took its toll - injury kept him out of the 98 world cup, the knock out stages of the libertadores in 2001. he kept scoring goals - but it was grim statistical accumulation - few of them were important.
on pure achievment i think ronaldo has to be considered superior.
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Cheers Tim, but this debate is a non starter.
Ronaldo was by far and away the best player on the planet between 1996-1999. He recaptured his brilliance between 2002-2005.
Bottom line? A fare superior player than Romario. The all time top goalscorer in the world cup. Romario was there in Italia 90 and did nothing. He didn't shine at all. He was good in 1994, but an expert finisher, never a brilliant all round game like Ronaldo.
8 goals in a single world cup finals is something I don't think will ever be equalled again. In France 98, minus the final of course, he was the best player in the tournament, and truly destroyed Holland in a great semi final.
The next year he was a phenomenon in the Copa America 99.
But as many have recognised it was amagical 12 months at camp nou as a very young man when he showed how amazing he was. The type of goals he notched, could never have been scored by Romario, while the ones Romario got, Ronaldo would have snapped up too.
As far as I recall, Romario had one great season at Barca, and one average one? Flopped at Valencia? So really are we judging his career on one world cup, and good seasons in the eredivisie and brazil?
On this criteria, Dirk Kuyt may aswell be the best dutch player to ever have graced the planet
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This is becoming one of the most exciting Brazil Championships of all time. In addition to the Corinthians story Tim has outlined, you have:
Fluminense - who invested more heavily than anybody else, with an excellent coach who built arguably the strongest team, on paper at least, but have suffered from injuries.
Santos - the team that enchanted the country in the first half of the year, storming to the state championship and the Brazil Cup (after the final was delayed till after the WC SA2010) and are now chasing the "triple crown", despite guaranteed presence in next year's Libertadores and losing Robinho and Ganso (severe injury) and selling Wesley and Andre.
Internacional - Libertadores champions and looking forward to the World Club finals, but still chasing the title, despite having qualified for next year's Libertadores.
Cruzeiro - the team that 'made' Ronaldo and this year have quietly chipped away at the Flu/Coringa lead and currently head the table.
Atlético PR - many people's tip for a relegation spot at the start of the season, but under Carpeggiani have moved up the table and are only 8pts off the leaders.
Grémio - fierce local rivals to Inter, they had an awful first half to the season, but have gone on a storming run that has lifted them to within striking distance of the title. And they are the form team at the moment, with all their rivals dropping unexpected points lately.
So, with 8 games to go, there are now 7 teams with genuine claims to be title contenders, despite most of the season being just a 2 horse race, as Tim pointed out.
Meanwhile, the battle to avoid relegation is providing another intriguing contest, as all the teams in the 'danger zone' have been picking up valuable and often very unexpected points. The first division is very evenly balanced this year, and bears many similarities to the EPL, possibly serving as an interesting prelude, as well as offering interesting lessons about just how exciting the league system can be.
Tim, do you think the fact that the first criterion in Brazil for separating teams that are level on points is number of wins (ahead of goal difference) makes any significant difference? Is it a system worth introducing in Europe?
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But was he better than Crouch?
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oops, forgot to mention that Carpeggiani has recently moved to São Paulo, so it will be interesting to see how the team perform without him at the helm.
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Tim?...or anyone else with a genuine knowledge of south american football, do you know how good Wellington Silva is? I know we've just bought him and i've seen a couple of youtube videos but obviously there always going to show him at his best....can anyone shed some light on how good this boy actually is?
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Wow! I'm astounded that anyone could think of comparing Wayne Rooney to Ronaldo, particularly given Rooney's current vein of form. I'm a Rooney fan and would love to see him capitalise on the 'star at 16' potential that he has yet to fully realise, but a comparison with Ronaldo at this stage of Rooney's career is ludicrous. Let's not forget that at Rooney's age, Ronaldo was already regularly destroying the defences of some of Europe's premier clubs, as well as scoring the sort of goals that you'd only expect to see on FIFA- seriously- go on you tube and see how often he carried the ball from a few feet inside the opposition half before unleashing a devastating mix of pace, power and deftness to leave opponents in his wake. He had also travelled to two World Cups and was, even given the 'ghost' final of 98', and with the possible exception of Zinedine Zidane, the most effective and exciting player on show. I've seen some wonderful strikers in my time, but none of them had the range to their game that Ronaldo had. Compare Wayne Rooney's World Cup record with that of Ronaldo- any player who wants to stand the test of time has to have at least one outstanding World Cup, in that respect Rooney is not fit to polish Ronaldo's boots.
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this year's brasileirao is again reaching for another exhilarating finale no doubt. this is what league football should be about. unpredictable, exciting and good football. today cruzeiro sits top who knows, maybe the great tricolor sao pualo will be leader at the end ;)
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I was fortunate to be at the Barcelona game against Compos in Santiago de Compostela where Ronaldo scored possibly his best ever goal. He got a well deserved standing ovation from the whole stadium, I knew at the time I was witnessing something special.
here's the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC57WLJYmUE
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and without doubt in his prime o fenomeno ronaldo was unequalled as a forward. one of the best strikers in football of all time and arguably the best player of our generation along with zizou
he's already indicated that his career end is near, so what kind of odds he's fighting against remain to be seen. the highest point of going out as such would probably be getting timao to be brasil champions or copa libertadores champion
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Just found this clip: "All 47 goals scored by 20 year old Ronaldo (Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima) in his debut season for Barcelona back in 1996-1997."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFhBJIICxi0
probably best without the music mind.
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Mr Vickery,
How about a article about Romario's new political career? Something which looks fascinating but outside Brazil I guess few know it all worked out.
******
The fatter of the Ronaldo's however produced the finest performances I've seen of a striker in the 1998 World Cup, prior to the disaster that was the final.
I'm hoping the Burger friendly Ronaldo will become a Elvis impersonator in his time after retirement, allowing the great Brazilian of cinema Walter Salles to make a Raging Bull esque biopic about him. It'd be great I tell you.
*****
How long is Ganso expected to be out? He looks pretty special from what I have seen. With Kaka sidelined, it looked like it was Ganso's time.
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ganso has an acl problem last i heard he's out until end of january at least. hope he doesn't lose his speed he's key in new selecao
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@31
!>?!?!?!??!!!!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!!>!?!>!>!!?!?!>!??>?!>>!>?!!>!?!>!?!>!?!>??>>!>?!>!?!>!?!?!>!
Democracy - Guarenteed to drive others mental
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Tim, I’m surprised you didn’t mention the stick that Ronaldo (and a number of other Corinthians players) got from some of their own fans during an open training session last week. They sang: “Ronaldo, vamos jogar. O Coringão não é o seu spa!” ‘Ronaldo let’s play. The ‘new Corinthians training centre’ isn’t your spa’. The comment was obviously aimed at the number of games he’s missed. But perhaps it was also because he recently acted as a ‘tour guide’ for a feature that Globo TV did on Corinthians new training centre. I think some of the fans took umbrage to what they perceived was Ronaldo’s somewhat blasé attitude to missing so many games.
Still, as many have said. He’s still a fabulous player and if he can get fitter, Corinthians are still in with a shout for the title
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He's the Brazilian David Hirst!
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That's just the harsh side of football, one minute you're the greatest the next you're the fattest.
Hope you come back stronger as you always did.
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@47 BLRBrazil... have you been signed as the marketing man for the Brasileirao? insightful but so optimistic.
Currently the leader of the league has 60% of points. 60% in the end of all 38 games would represent around 70points - so let's assume that is the target for a team to win the title. Even such target being very low, of the 7 teams you mentioned, two (Atletico and Gremio) would need to win ALL their remaining 8 matches to have a chance, and Inter and Santos would need to win 7 and draw the other. Let's face it, that rules these teams out (maybe, just maybe, Santos would have a chance if they somehow spring to dominance with their young stars, but very unlikely - Inter will be thinking about the Club World Cup really, no chance there).
So you have only 3 real contenders - and I, as a Corinthians fan, am not unfortunately holding my breath for a reaction from our recent dismall run. So in the end you have only two likely winners - Cruzeiro or Fluminense. The rest is you trying to talk up the Brazilian league.
By the way @52 brasiliero83 maybe it's unpredictable, maybe it's exciting, but good football? not really.
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there's a nice documentary on youtube made by a fan, the opening scene is Zinedine Zidane who many rate as the best player in the last 20 years, what he says about Ronaldo, tells you all you need to know about the talent of the man and how great he really was. Eon's ahead of anyone else I think it was including the great Zizou himself. Fantastic player, my favourite player and the best I've ever seen though a young Argentine is slowly carving a reputation of his own, he's yet to pull off performances like those in 1998 and 2002 where Ronaldo practically carried 2 Brazilian teams to finals.
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Furthermore, Ronaldo's greatest trait isn't his pinpoint finishing, or his unflappable composure in front of goal, or his superior technique, or his devastating pace, silky dribbling, intelligent movement. It's just his sheer determination to come back, he always does, it's what he does best, and for that, for that only, i consider him the best player to ever grace the game.
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you are being way too objective 'alexAD' :)
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Years ago I heard that the reason Ronaldo suffered so badly with knee problems was that when he was with P.S.V, the surgeon who operated on it botched it. Is there any truth in this?
My abiding memories of Ronaldo are from the 98 World Cup where up until the final he was quite simply miles better than anyone else and in 2006 when he was clearly overweight but still managed to score a cracking goal against Ghana to equal or pass Gerd Muller's record. Of all his attributes, I think it was his acceleration combined with his dribbling that impressed me the most.
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The guy was an awesome player, his goalscoring record at the top end of the game is second to none, and had all of the attributes of a complete striker. Top top quality
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'I am reliably informed that Ronaldo's current weight problem is, in part, a consequence of the medication he needs to soothe his battered knees.'
This is interesting, but can Tim please explain a bit more? Thanks.
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the Best player i ever saw live in his prime, a superb player and he was a delight to watch.
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Oque houve com o ronaldo,foi que antes da copa do mundo ele mesmo perdeu a vontade de joga futebol ao ver que não estava em nivel,como achou que estaria ao fim da copa do brasil ano passado,de ser convocado e isso mais varias lesoes fizeram com que ele não esteja hoje como um dos principais jogadores do brasileirão.Mas,vamos ver nesse final.Uma vez fenomeno,sempre fenomeno,mesmo com 120 kg a mais...
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#70 ingles, por favor, we can't cope with these foreign sounds.
Good article, it will invariably cover old ground, so I hope there's something to educate us about new players coming soon (I realise there was the cracking Neymar one a few weeks back).
Everyone is being far too fair and objective this week, and I'm afraid I can't criticise the fat one too much myself, he was just awesome at his peak.
I'd compare him to Torres in today's game, a goalscorer and creator, clinical yet stylish, the dribbling marksman. Surely someone can argue about this comparison????
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At his best Ronaldo was for me a football genius. Contrary to what some may believe, I think deep down, he is also a man of tremendous pride, who cares deeply about his impending legacy. That criticism will have hurt.
The late Sir Bobby Robson described him as having a delightful mentality. This was particularly so in the context of the appalling injuries he had suffered and the brutal tackling to which he had been subjected.
I understand Ronaldo held Sir Bobby in similarly high regard and was very upset at his passing. That is more than can be said for the alleged treatment of Sir Bobby by one British footballer.
At his core, Ronaldo is clearly an appreciative and charming man, who perhaps doesn't always come across the right way. Perhaps we can all be guilty of that from time to time?
I think there is another chapter to be written and I for one look forward to seeing this Brazilian genius raging against the light.
Ronaldo - Thank you for your dignity and brilliance.
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@Dr Wang, i think torres will never reach the heights ronaldo did.he may be similar but in no way can i consider him on par with ronaldo.remember ronaldo did some of these miraculous things as a teenager, and in his early twenties, torres had a couple decent seasons is all.however, torres at his peak does indeed have the qualities you mentioned-just ronaldo had all those, and more to boot...
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Please,please Tim cange your profile picture.You look like a pimp,I can forsee you saying "hey baby,how you doing".:)
Other than that,another good article.
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My best Ronaldo memory? Him sobbing on the bench after Inter bottled the title against Lazio. May 5th 2002. Beautiful.
On a more serious note, I always like to see players I grew up watching continue to make an impact on the game. I'm sure there's a few more great moments left in Ronaldo yet. His talent will not fade, just like his waistline...
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Er, Mr Vickery
Surely an article about the longevity of a sports person's career should contain the very relevant information about just how old they are!?
Oh well, there's always wiki..!
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Ronaldo is the best player that I have seen in my life and the most underrated in the history of the soccer. Just to remember that by the age of 22 he was already a FIFA player of the year twice , best player in the World Cup 1998 ,
best player in Dutch , Spanish and Italian leagues , the age at which current superstars just start to shine . . After that he suffered serious injuries and i don't think he was back to what he was supposed to be , the greatest player ever .
He is season with Inter 97-98 was the best i watched from a player. He was able to perform one man show in a very defensive and tough league , he was like somebody playing against small kids.
So good luck with R9 for the next few months which left in his carrier.
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Why are we so often deprived of the world's greatest strikers' best years?
Ronaldo and van Basten springs to mind.
That he is considered (one of the) best striker(s) of all time underlines how far ahead of everyone there has been.
It makes me cringe when people talk about Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi in the same breath as him. They are great players, but they are not realy in the same league (yet!).
Had a cheeky bet that Ronaldo would be top scorer in the 2002 WC as well.. perhaps gives me rose-tinted specs with him!
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Sorry guys and my sincere apology , cause i forgot to mention players like Crouch , Bent and Andy Carrol who are far ahead of Ronaldo . Of course not to mention the golden Roony.
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#71
An interesting comparison and my first thought is that Torres while a very awesome player in full flight on goal, lacks the drive, power and physicality of the early cream cake monster Ronaldo.
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76 - you're spot on, i should have mentioned ronaldo's age - 34 by the way. as i drifted off to bed it occurred to me that i might have forgotten to throw it in.
74 - it's hard out here for a pimp - especially with the exchange rate as it is! the current photo is a holiday snap from last year - i'll get a new one done when i run into someone with a camera.
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1. At 09:28am on 18 Oct 2010, supershunsuke wrote:
"The only problem I had with him was his ridiculous haircut in the 2002 World Cup - as illustrated in the picture above."
Quite it looked like a misplaced mirkin
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Ronaldo is still my all time favourite player. He was simply unstoppable in his prime, and the fact he still continues to try shows that he still loves the game.
The champions league game between Real Madrid and Manchester United is enough evidence alone.
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#73 and #80 - have to agree, especially about the physicality - suppose it was the trickery rather than the power that drew me to compare.
Drogba has some similarities, a player who blossomed late, just imagine what he could do with an extra 5 years? #77 is also correct - Ronaldo was awesome from an early age - did he need protecting by being shielded away?
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one of the endearing things about ronaldo is that he is one of a dying breed-the striker with the ability and confidence to take the ball around the goalkeeper, in all situations.scored his WC goal vs. ghana like that, was pretty amazing.i think drogba is a fine example of a player who peaked late.ronaldo peaked early, but maintained that peak for a long time, slowly building more into his game,just a shame injury had to ruin his knees.and if as Tim Vickery says, his medication is partly to blame for his weight issues, that must be even more upsetting for him, knowing he could be in better shape.imagine, he is such an underrated striker yet still regarded as one of, if not THE best to grace the game.
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The most clinical finishers (in the mind of wang) go;
5. George Weah
4. Romario
3. Ronaldo
2. Dixie Dean
1. Eusebio
?
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Hi Tim (Great blog btw!),
Speaking of slightly chubby forwards I had in mind asking about the new FC Porto recruit, Walter, formerly of Internacional de Porto Alegre. He just scored a hat-trick against 3rd division minnows, do you reckon he'll set Europe on fire as Ronaldo did?
Also, and I been wanting to ask this for ages, how rated is Falcao (FC Porto / Colombia striker) in South America?
Finally, a question about a centreback - Sebastian Coates of Nacional - How good is he and can you discuss possible reasons to why he hasn't been snapped up yet to European football?
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Yet again brilliant blog Tim.
Ronaldo what a phenomenan, superb player one of my all time favorites definately in the top 3, he along with romario have been the best strikers i have seen in the last 20 years. He was brilliant for barca, an his 1st season at inter was just breathtaking he almost single handedly won them the title in 98. A real pity regarding his injuries as he lost that blistering pace, but even after 2 severe knee injuties he came back to win the world cup and play magnificent football with the glacticos of madrid
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Luiz De Lima Ronaldo was one of the finest I've seen play. As many say his skill was, in his prime, simply world class pure and simple.
His tricks mind boggling at times, his speed.....bullet you'd think and for everything else well those of us who've seen him play then there's no need to mention...simply watch videos of him.
Pele and Ronaldo.....WOW!
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I'll always remember him for THAT hat-trick. Sorry Ipswich fans.
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@44 "The only player that can be considered in a similar level of Ronaldo (at his peak) is Messi - although is a different kind of player. Cristiano is arguably almost there, but he lack's something"
Yes, Cristiano is almost there. He already has the surname and arguably the speed. Now all he has to work on is:
- purchasing some talent and skill to stop being a predictable one-trick show pony.
- buying some nerve so that he can perform on the big stage and at all levels for club and country like Ronaldo did. He may even get a discount if he takes Messi shopping with him as we all know how much Messi needs some of it too.
what? you can't buy these things?... oh well.
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Dear Tim, thanks for four great composition!I become a Ronaldo fans since 1996,and I think that I have good luck,because I got such fortune to see the most beautiful dribble skills of the history.Yeah,that was Ronaldo of the 97/98 season in the Inter Milan,though he hasn't scored so many goals like when him in Barca,but he was really best at that moment.
When he got knees injury in 1999 and 2000,we are heart-broken.
When he played for Corinthians ,we all become Corinthians fans.In our country,Ronaldo always is biggest sport star!THERE are over hundred million people love Ronaldo forever in our country.
For me ,Ronaldo was greatest football player since Pele.And I glad to saw he play good in yestoday
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@ 62: Alex, since this is a blog aimed primarily (though of course not exclusively) at Brits I thought they might be interested to know a little more about our current championship. And I'd love to be paid for doing so, but it isn't the case, unfortunately - and I don't think Tim's going to be passing the baton any time soon :o)
I disagree with you about the calculations, since you do not take into account how much more unpredictable results have become, as the title/Libertadores and relegation battles hot up. If you take current points and add the points obtained in the last 8 games (an imperfect measure, but no worse than your calculation) you get:
Cruzeiro 54 + 14 = 68 ; Grémio 46 + 20 = 66 ; Fluminense 53 + 12 = 65 ; Santos 48 + 13 = 61 ; AtléticoPR 46 + 15 = 61 ; São Paulo 44 + 16 = 60 ; Palmeiras 44 + 15 = 59 ; Corinthians 50 + 6 = 56 ; Inter 47 + 9 = 56
which doesn't look too good for your Coringa. But if football results were predictable there would be no football lotteries. It's still wide open, as far as I can see.
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31. At 1:22pm on 18 Oct 2010, maradona10_handofgod wrote:
I think Wayne Rooney has already shown himself to be a better player and at the end of his career will be considered a far better ALL round player than Ronaldo.
Wayne Rooney was world class at 16 years of age. Remember that GOAL against Arsenal.
I would have Rooney in my team ahead of Ronaldo at his peak any day of week!!!!
You got the wrong Ronaldo. This is about the Brazilian Ronaldo, not the prima donna one that played for Man U
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Dr WANG - I wish you would THINK before you type.
You compared Torres and now your saying Drogba is similiar to Ronaldo. They ARENT in the same league mate.
Your a typical biased English premiership supporter that DOENST have a clue about real football or what was one of the top 10 players of ALL time.
Next you'll be saying he was similiar in the air to Darren Bent. Please dont follows this article and go join a blog about what a great player Stuart Pearce was or how England will win the next world cup.
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oh and roy@94
that was me taking the mickey. just doing an impression of the english media!! lol
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Someone help? Tim can you help?
Have I just imagined this or did he once appear for Brazil in a tournament wearing "Ronaldinho" on the back of his shirt. If so, why? and at what tournament was this?
I remember watching him vs England in the Umbro Cup of 1995 and thinking that this was the first superstar I would see from start to finish in their career, I'd say he lived upto a lot of my billing from that point forward.
I also want to know when they thought he'd be a superstar. Was it at Cruzeiro? How well did he do there?
Good i'd presume seeing as they put him in a wrold cup squad - what was the Brazilian reaction to that? Similar to Theo Walcott over here?
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i think at the 94 world cup?another ronaldo was in the squad, so he had ronaldinho on his shirt-"little ronaldo".this is why ronaldinho of ac milan has his name as it is.he should now be called Ronaldao (big ronaldo), and i mean that in a good way.they probably realised he was going to be a star at cruzeiro yes
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#95
I thought he was just speculating and thinking about a comparison and it did make me think about Torres and Drogba along these lines. Nothing wrong with that at all, that's what a discussion is about.
Anyway onwards:
Ronaldo the best brazilian since Pele? For me yes as I think he had more to his game than Romario (also a great player) but for the all-time best IMO Diego had more to his game for me than all of them.
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@ 18;
Ronaldo's "lack of self discipline" had nothing to do with his knee injuries dude.
My personal favourite player of my time, this guy had everything. Only for the injuries I think he would have surpassed Pele and Maradona in the all-time greats list, because he was a combination of the best of both.
Awful pity Romario wasn't available to play at France 98, as it would have taken the pressure off the boy. We would have swallowed our tongues with the treats on display.
Legend.
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Not the first time NO one wants to win the Brasileiro! It is crazy. But as someone who lives in the path of Corithians (this season Palmeiras) traffic I have been happy with the quiet.
Ronaldo will have to do something special this time. If he does I think it will be 1 maybe 2 goals in special games (maybe the last). He doesn`t have the protection of the referees as he use to when he first returned home, with both players and officials in AWE of the phenomenon as he is referred to here.
Tim who is your tip for the championship? I don`t think Santos will make it, but lets see.
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@93 BLRBrazil, not a problem at all for you wanting to inform the non-Brazilians about the Brasileirao, I applaud you for that - and would be challenging with you for the job should the position become available.
Though I don't want to make this a "who knows more statistics" competition, I still need to point out that your assumption is definitely worse than mine. The last 8 results of the contenders represent a still moment, it is not mathematically logical to assume they will be repeated in the following 8 weeks, they are just a curiosity. My assumption - that 60% of points is the target for the eventual champion - is based on consolidated trends: the points percentage of the competition leader (which has been there or thereabouts since the start of the competition, for every team that occupied that place), the fact that since Brazil adopted the points system in 2003, all champions accumulated more than 67 points - and you will agree several of those seasons were unpredictable and subject to all sorts of interferences, as is the tradition of Brazilian football, finally, that of the three teams with a shouting distance of said target, the most likely is that at least one of them will maintain a good run which will cancel out the efforts of the teams that, despite recent good results, have lagged behind. Maybe there might still be a fight for a Libertadores spot (involving Corinthians, Atletico, Gremio and who knows even Sao Paulo and Palmeiras), but for the title, no way Perhaps we can place a bet, and see who is right come December?
On another point not yet raised in the posts, one thing that Tim has reaffirmed is how critical he is of the calendar of Brazilian football, which is not in sync with the European calendar. There are many in Brazil that insist the fact the summer and school holidays are in the end of the year, or that we should not bow to European wishes, or even that it isn't fun to have a 2001/11 champion (as opposed to a 2010 one), justifies maintaining that calendar. Ever the objective (as brasileiro83 pointed out) I personally agree with Tim, but it is a good debate.
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Ronaldo, who first came to proeminence in the Brasileirao of 1993, was called Ronaldinho by the Brazilian media (many Brazilians will fondly remember the Casseta character "Gaviao Bueno" saying Rrrrronaldinho! and the late Bussunda making his hilarious impersonification of the player) until Gaucho (the current Ronaldinho) came along around 1999 - it was then that Ronaldinho became simply Ronaldo.
Someone said it was because there was another Ronaldo in the 94 squad. It is true we had another Ronaldo, but to complicate things he was actually called "Ronaldao" (big Ronaldo), a strong defender who played for Sao Paulo at the time. But months before being called into the squad Ronaldo was nicknamed Ronaldinho probably because of his then tiny frame (honest) and the fact he was only 16 years old in his first start for Cruzeiro as a professional in 93(against Corinthians - Corinthians won 2-1!).
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Just to clear up the confusion, Ronaldo, as he is now called, was "Ronaldinho" (the Portuguese diminutive) for much of his career. However, it started to get confusing when Ronaldinho Gaúcho started rising to world fame. The distinction remained the "Gaúcho" (someone from the southern state of Rio Grande do Sul) for a while, but eventually "Ronaldinho" became Ronaldo and "Gaúcho" became "Ronaldinho". There has already been at least one "Ronaldão" - the one I remember was a fairly good centreback.
If Pele is pretty unanimous as best Brazilianever, there is quite a lot of discussion about second best. Both the Ronaldinhos are in there, along with Garrincha and Zico. I think you'll find Romario is in the next tier of 'greats', along with Falcão, Socrates, Leonidas, Gerson, Junior, Rivelino.....there you go Dr. Wang, some fuel for a discussion :o)
By the way, many Brazilians will probably think Paolo Rossi should be on your list (@ 86) - 3 out of 3 is pretty clinical. And what about Jimmy Greaves?
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Absolute legend. No-one, and I mean no-one, could rip a team apart as Ronaldo did - and in as many different ways as Ronaldo could!
Whether it be powerful runs, little flicks and tricks in close quarters, neat finishes, long range power goals, or short/long range placed curlers - he could do it all (except head obviously)!
For me, should alwyas be considered in the argument for the greatest player of all time for what he did when he was on the pitch! not what happened off it - eg. - Maradona???? No-one questions his tempramanet/self discipline when assessing his greatness!
Great blog, and hopefully he can have a fairytale ending to his troubled career.
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And still in discussion mode, since Brazil has transformed its poor reputation for goalkeepers (was it deserved in the first place?), who are the best Brazilian keepers of all time?
My personal favourite is Dida, who at his peak was the only keeper I'd give a +50% chance of saving a penalty, given his combination of size, agility, speed of reaction and ability to read the striker.
Indeed, when comparing players, it's perhaps fairer to compare by position, although that still leaves plenty of margin for argument over different eras, styles and levels of fitness.
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@ 102: all good points Alex. Let's just enjoy the run in, pray that there is no 'outside' influence and see how it turns out.
The idea of changing the calendar is a rich vein for discussion too.
Btw, I didn't intend to duplicate your explanation of the "Ronaldinho" situation - it wasn't visible when I posted mine.
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@107 BLRBrazil - no problems, the clearer, the better.
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re.106 I can't comment on the keepers I haven't seem, Gilmar dos Santos Neves apparently as the top one before my time.
I don't rate Dida that much, for me he wasn't even the best Corinthians had during the last decades (I prefer Ronaldo (Soares Giovanelli) the goalkeeper, another one!)
Taffarel never impressed me though he did manage to be the national team's top keeper for many years, with many accolades.
So it has to be Marcos, or "Sao Marcos", our keeper in 2002 who has been great over the years for Palmeiras, a true legend in my opinion. And brace yourself for Sao Paulo fans arguing Rogerio Ceni is the one.
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# 103, 104
Do you mean in Brazil he was known as Ronaldinho, as in Europe he has never been known as this. In fact only for me seeing on the back of his shirt that time I doubt I would have ever been aware that he was ever called this. As would i'd say 95% of europeans.
#104
On your classification of the best Brazilian players ever. Surely Jair and Rivaldo would appear ahead of Rivelino Socrates etc.
I agree Pele is deemed as the best, but many Brazilians argue Garrincha. These are too old for me.
Zico comes in at 2nd, however his World Cup exploits seem to let him down along with lack of playing time outside Brazil.
If you say in 1970 you had Pele, Jair and Carlos Alberto as the star trio
In 1998 i'd argue Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Roberto Carlos were just as good.
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110 - i remember filming vox pops in rio with a bbc crew in the run up to the 98 world cup - we had to ask people not to say 'ronaldinho' - "can you say ronaldo please, otherwise noone in england will know who you're talking about."
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110, no way you would find a Brazilian saying Garrincha was better than Pele. Pele is the unquestionable number one (of the world, including Maradona). But in our mitology Garrincha has been always hailed as the second, though few of us have actually seen him play.
The thing is, it is difficult to rate current history, Ronaldo is too recent. Maybe in time he will be seen as the best after Pele, but right now he will still compete with Garrincha, Rivelino and Zico.
Jairzinho (or Jair as you say) is seen by Brazilians as a great player, but not in the same league as the others - even from that 70s team I would say Gerson and Tostao are normally rated as superior to Jair.
Ronaldinho and Romario are also excellent but I honestly think that also not in the same league of the ones mentioned initially.
and please, do not say Zico is not rated for not playing abroad - that is not a measure of success specially when refering to pre-90s players - until the 80s the South American sides were as good as the top European sides, including Zico's Flamengo which walked over the then mighty Liverpool in 1981.
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i remember hearing a small amount about Ronaldo during the commentary of the 94 World cup final and wondering what the fuss was about. I then recall snippets of seeing him in action for PSV in the uefa cup when he scored a hattrick against Leverkusen and i remember seeing him dribble round tim flowers at wembley where brazil outclassed england 3-1 and thinking that was quite a classy finish for an 18 yr old. Saw further evidence of his striking instincts at the atlanta olypic games where he scored and produced numerous moments of skill that made your eyes pop out. Remembering particularly a game against ghana where he tormented their defence time and again with flicks and drag backs. I truly believe Pele would have been surpassed in the all time list if Ronaldo had had no bad injuries. He had the vision of pele but was quicker and more skillful and boy could he finish. One of my favourite Ronaldo memories was a game vs Barcelona at Nou camp when being taunted as "fat" he outpaced their defence and chipped valdes. Pure unadulterated class. He is the eternal number 1. The phenomenon.
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#112
and please, do not say Zico is not rated for not playing abroad - that is not a measure of success specially when refering to pre-90s players - until the 80s the South American sides were as good as the top European sides, including Zico's Flamengo which walked over the then mighty Liverpool in 1981.
There's no doubt about that in my mind.
But what boosts a lot of the goal tally for Pele and Zico is all these games in Brazil against much lower class opposition in the different competitions.
That doesn't happen so much in Europe which is why Ronaldo has hundreds less goals attributed to his name.
What about Rivaldo, is he not looked upon in this light because his really early years were pretty non descript before Palmeiras? No Child prodigy, just someone who became a wonderful player and a true match winner.
Also strange the way we don't have these views in England??
Charlton, Lineker, Gascoigne, Dean, Beckham, Moore, Greaves, Wright?
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Thanks Tim
Got to confess though, im feeling more than a bit "Brazil'd" out at the moment.
Any chance we could have a few blogs discussing other aspects of South American Football?
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115 - last week's - despite the headline - was more argentina than brazil, and i think there's been as much argentina as brazil over recent weeks - but point taken.
not always easy to widen it out - i'm asked to keep content as relevant as possible for a british readership, which stops me getting too exotic. also i can't travel round the continent as much as i used to - it's not cheap, and i'm being hit hard by the current exchange rate. there's only so much money i'm prepared to lose!
no idea yet what the next column will be about - could well be that the next one for sbs in australia will have a look at national teams outside brazil and argentina.
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#116
Sorry Tim forgot how much us British readers are narrow minded and dumb to appreciate football outside of Argentian or Brazil.
I personally would like to know a bit more about Uruguayan football, and the effect a magnificent World Cup has had on such a small nation?
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114 I can see your point re. their goal tallies but again you are assuming intermediate teams in South America back then can be considered "weaker opposition" - why? they were as weak or strong as the intermediate sides in Europe, same logic at every level. You have to remember that the hordes of mid-level Brazilians and Argentines that play in the lesser sides in Spain, Germany and Italy today would in the 70s/80s be the backbone of this so called weaker opposition.
Yes, after I had posted my comments I realized I had not mentioned Rivaldo. He is definitely underestimated - his contribution in 2002 is on par with Ronaldo's - but still would be I believe a bit behind the other mentioned players in terms of true greatness - being or not a child prodigy is irrelevant, players will blossom at different stages.
Other very relevant players of the last decades are Socrates, Junior and Falcao, they are all in this mix also, in my opinion.
what views you don't have in England? didn't quite get that.
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Enjoyable as always Tim. How do you think he would've done in England at his best? I think he would've been a real star here with the right club.
I remember his hat-trick for Real in a 4-3 defeat at Old Trafford, he was unplayable that night.
Here's a shameless plug for my blog. I'm no expert, it's a bit of fun.
http://scottssportsandsocial.blogspot.com/
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@112, great post 'alexAD'
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my favorite ronaldo o fenomeno moment was rather simple
watching him live at the world cup final in yokohama stadium, japan 2002 scoring those two goals at beating oliver kahn at my end onwards to the 5th star :)
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There are so many great Brazilian player in history,like Leonidas in the 30s ,Zizinho in the 40s,Didi in the 50s,Pele,GARRINCHA in the 50s and 60s.Zico,Rivellino in the 70s.Zico ,Falcao,Socrates in the 80s.Ronaldo,Romario in the 90s.Kaka,Ronaldinho in the 00s....
Greatest Brazilian ever:
ADEMIR Marques de Menezes
AMARILDO Tavares Santana
CARLOS ALBERTO TORRES
DIDI (Valdir Pereira)
DJALMA SANTOS
Paulo Roberto FALCAO
Arthur FRIEDENREICH
GARRINCHA (Manoel Francisco dos Santos)
JAIRZINHO (Jair Ventura Filho)
JULINHO (Julio Botelho)
KAKA
Leonidas
MAZOLA
NILTON SANTOS
PELE
Roberto RIVELLINO
ROMARIO de Souza Farias
RONALDO Nazzrio de Lima
RONALDINHO
Jorge Lobo ZAGALLO
Zizinho
ZICO (Arthur Antunes Coimbra)
ZITO
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Hey Vickery,
the picture is a breath of fresh air. There's nothing wrong with looking like a pimp kicking back. Why not? It's better than having a dull passport photo up there. It's big pimpin', keep doing what you do.
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A lot of people have mentioned a lot of players on here but I'm amazed no one mentioned the legendary Henry. I would put Henry on an equal level with Ronaldo. While Ronaldo was injured Henry ruled the world & (as the the legendary Wneger said) deserved a couple of World Player Of The Year awards. Nobody missed Ronaldo because Henry was doing the same things as he used to do.
The problem Henry had was that Zidane was already the kingpin of the French team and they played for him while Henry was establishing himself. France never truly exploited Henry's talents, they always played dull football during the Henry period. If he was Brazilian he would have done more individually for them.
When Ronaldo was establishing himself in the Brazil team there wasn't a player equivalent to Zidane (or Kaka), so they played for him. The team was built around him.
The other important factors are that, although just as charismatic as Ronaldo, Henry was quite a moody character. Ronaldo always had a smile on his face. I'm sure the marketing men prefered that to Henry's at times sullen demeanour.
Ronaldo's story is much more dramatic and thus elicits a lot more sympathy. Henry was not hyped up from his early days, he never had a career-threatening injury and no grand comebacks to make, he didn't play for a big team during his prime and he was never caught with transvestites.
Henry deserves more credit than he receives.
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While I agree that Ronaldo is one of the best ever, certainly top three, it always pains me to see Marandona placed above Pele. Perhaps it is because I am older and saw Pele play in person that I appreciate his greatness. Maradona is certainly a derserving number two but please, all you younger lads, give the king the respect he deserves. Pele did it like on one else.
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Thank you #95 for your feedback, but more thanks to #99 for explaining why some of the insults are disingenuous to say the least.
I refer maradona1-_handofgod to post #86 - my top 5 clinical finishers, you will notice not one of them has ever been a Premiership player.
How may typical premiership fans would choose this selection? How many are fascinated by south american football? And how many believe the premiership is entirely overrated, and that most british football fans are ignorant to other cultures and their football?
Time for a rethink.
And if I may still comment on Premiership players I totally agree with #125. Henry has been kind of similar, maybe his early days as a winger set him apart though.
Ronaldo is, in my view, in the top 5 forwards to grace every league he played in. In the premiership (not previous division 1) I'd plump for;
Henry
Bergkamp
Zola
Shearer
Fowler
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#18- In Brazil, those who pick Romario over Ronaldo aren't a small minority at all. Probably 50/50.
And when I was criticizing Ronaldo, I wasn't talking about what he did in the past, of course. He was one of the all time greats- top 5 of those I've seen in my lifetime. But praise him for what he's playing today is like praising Michael Jordan when he was at Washington Wizards.
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Ronaldo and Rooney are very similar very strong and powerfully built when they are fit and playing regular can have a purple patch (I am not suggesting that Rooney is as good as Ronaldo).
Get an injury put on a bit of weight and it seems to take them a long time to get going again and they can look very ordinary in that period.
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