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We can't buy peace in Afghanistan

The classic colonial practice of doling out cash to insurgents is even less likely to be effective in Afghanistan than it was in Iraq

So now we know the secret weapon of the the new western plan to pacify Afghanistan: cash. As President Obama prepares to announce the expected dispatch of tens of thousands more troops to America's eight-year-old war and occupation, US and British commanders on the ground have already begun to fund and equip Afghan militias to help fight the Taliban.

The idea behind the homely sounding Community Defence Initiative is to buy off disaffected fighters and create loyal tribal auxiliaries to support Nato occupation forces and the Afghan government. It's the other leg of US General McChrystal's plan for a military surge to turn round the deepening crisis of the Afghan war – and is directly modelled on the US surge of 2007 in Iraq.

That combined a large increase in US troop numbers with the creation of American-funded "awakening councils" out of parts of Iraq's Sunni-based resistance who had come into conflict with al-Qaida. It led to an initial increase in violence and American deaths, followed by a sharp decrease in both thereafter.

British forces, struggling as ever to keep up with their US masters, are planning to set up their own Community Defence Initiative militias in Helmand. "It is exactly what the Americans did in Iraq", the British commander Brigadier James Cowan says. "That is what we need to do here."

It's classic colonial practice – or "counter-insurgency", as it's politely known – detectable from Malaya and Kenya to Vietnam and the Palestinian "village leagues" Israel set up in the 1970s. But it's also the delusion of occupiers through the ages that you can kill off people's determination to run their own country by handing them wads of notes.

Nor does the Iraq precedent offer much encouragement. The awakening councils were one factor in the reduction of US casualties – which are still running at a death every two or three days. But they depended on a number of factors that don't exist in Afghanistan: Sunni Arabs are a minority in Iraq (echoing a weakness of Malaya's Chinese-based 1950s guerrilla campaign), some of whom came to fear Shia militias and Iran more than the US occupation forces after two years of sectarian bloodletting.

By contrast, the Pashtun who form the backbone of the Taliban campaign are by far the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan; sectarian divisions exist in nothing like the same way; and none of the regional powers exercise the same kind of influence against Pashtun interests that many Sunnis regard Iran as wielding in Iraq.

In any case, Iraq's awakening councils have themselves been in crisis for some time and are now increasingly the focus of armed attacks. Indeed, in Anbar province, cradle of the awakening movement, resistance operations against US, Iraqi army and police and awakening targets have been growing for several months.

Trying the same trick in Afghanistan will certainly escalate conflict between Afghans, fund new warlords and boost corruption still further. At best, it will buy a breathing space to create the political cover for a negotiated US and Nato withdrawal. But any idea that renting tribal leaders will buy peace in Afghanistan is a pipedream.


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We can't buy peace in Afghanistan | Seumas Milne

This article was published on guardian.co.uk at 17.00 GMT on Monday 23 November 2009. It was last modified at 18.22 GMT on Monday 23 November 2009.

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  • ZacSmith ZacSmith

    23 Nov 2009, 5:14PM

    It has worked for centuries. When you say peace you mean "functioning western-style democracy" rather than "balance of power between tribal warlords". You say tomato...

  • Henryb63 Henryb63

    23 Nov 2009, 5:18PM

    This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted.
  • Gigolo Gigolo

    23 Nov 2009, 5:21PM

    I broadly agree.

    Big difference Seamus is that the UK isn't in Afghanistan with the intention of colonialising the country. History would indicate just how hopeless that policy is.

    However, the UK and USA cannot just sit back and allow Afghanistan to become a failed state run by the Taliban, with heroin and Islamic terrorism its chief exports.

    I don't know what the long-term solution is, but it certainly isn't the present half-hearted, pussy-footing around nonsense that is getting our troops killed for no good purpose.

  • gettingnervous gettingnervous

    23 Nov 2009, 5:23PM

    I had no particular moral or legalistic qualms about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, rather my problem (at the time) was always with the execution.

    I suspected with those 2 monkeys running the circus, that the plans would all be about political expediency and less about the welfare of the locals or any particular grand strategic design.

    I take no pleasure whatsoever form being proved right.
    There is no reason for our troops being in Afghanistan, sure i know the reasons the politicoes will trot out. About Britain being safer, blah,blah,blah.
    The problem is there is no underlying design behind our troops being in Afghanistan. I suspect Bush and Blair expected to be able to supress any Taleban counter attack against the warlords in the "coalition" using air power alone.
    This short sighted approach leads us to the here and now, stuck knee deep in a quagmire, led there by disingenuous politicians and overreaching military minds.
    Every step we have taken has been retrograde.
    Every idea has been wrong headed.

    It seeems now, despite knowing the complete mess we have made of our interference in Afghanistan, knowing how absolutely wrong we have been all down the line, the idiots now scrabble for further justification.

    In effect Afghanistan has become the ultimate Pyramid Scheme.
    I ask our American cousins to look to their own formation, to the years 1779 to 1781 and Cornwallis, to see the folly that is Afghanistan.

    "one more battle may win us America"

  • stevehill stevehill

    23 Nov 2009, 5:26PM

    More sensible (if more depressing) than Julian Glover's piece today.

    These people will take our cash because, well, they'd be daft not to. The cash will be used to gain control of opium production. Heroin will then be sold to us. For cash.

    From an Afghan warlord's perspective it's hard to see a downside to prolonging this state of affairs for as long as possible.

  • 1830 1830

    23 Nov 2009, 5:32PM

    The key term in this article is "resistence".

    The logic is unclear, but seems to be this: if you opposed the Iraq war, you should support the "resistence". I didn't support the Iraq war, and I don't support the "resistence" aka the terrorists blowing up military personel.

  • bailliegillies bailliegillies

    23 Nov 2009, 5:34PM

    Sadly I suspect that the money will only be paid until such time as it is peaceful enough and viable for us to pull out of that country while seeming to have succeeded in bringing peace and democracy. What happens after won't be of interest to our leaders but victory parades will be held on the mall and knighthoods and peerages will be awarded to the great and good who got the country into the mess.

  • abugaafar abugaafar

    23 Nov 2009, 5:34PM

    What goes around comes around. During the First World War GB paid staggering sums of money in gold to Hussein of Mecca to get him to rebel against his Ottoman sovereign, and it did us no good at all.

  • HardTruths HardTruths

    23 Nov 2009, 5:37PM

    Can we buy them off by handing over some individuals for local justice? I suggest every surviving member of the UK Cabinet 2001-date.

    If that doesn't work, I'm willing to throw in every MP who has ever made a speech, comment or vote in favour of the war in Afghanistan.

    I know it's a long shot, but I think we should try it anyway. I think their lives would be a price worth paying for peace.

  • 1830 1830

    23 Nov 2009, 5:40PM

    Sadly I suspect that the money will only be paid until such time as it is peaceful enough and viable for us to pull out of that country while seeming to have succeeded in bringing peace and democracy. What happens after won't be of interest to our leaders but victory parades will be held on the mall and knighthoods and peerages will be awarded to the great and good who got the country into the mess.

    It was a failed state before the US invaded, it still is a failed state and it will probably get worse when they leave.

  • wotever wotever

    23 Nov 2009, 5:42PM

    The US hasn't enough cash to buy off the warlords, who are funded by the opium trade.

    The "war on drugs" like all prohibition measures, simply increased the market and inflated the price.

    Ironically, because of prohibition, every junkie in the West is paying for the bullets and bombs that are directed at the West's armies.
    Legalise heroin and the warlords of Afghanistan would pack up and go home.

  • 1830 1830

    23 Nov 2009, 5:47PM

    Can we buy them off by handing over some individuals for local justice? I suggest every surviving member of the UK Cabinet 2001-date.

    And what would you do about the terrorists associated with al-qaida and the taliban? Would they face justice, or just the UK cabinet? And why just the UK cabinet? Why not all the politicians of every country on earth who supported - politicall, financially or morally - the US invasion? If not, why not?

    More to the point, what would you have done after 9/11? Nothing?

  • BeautifulBurnout BeautifulBurnout

    23 Nov 2009, 5:49PM

    Contributor Contributor

    However, the UK and USA cannot just sit back and allow Afghanistan to become a failed state run by the Taliban, with heroin and Islamic terrorism its chief exports.

    Gigolo, I usually agree with your comments, but I have to disagree with this one.

    There was never any evidence that Afghanistan was exporting terrorism. The Afghan govt said if the US could give them evidence that Al Qaida was operating in their country, they would gladly find him and hand him over. Instead the US-led coalition took this to be fightin' talk and invaded anyway.

    As regards heroin, equally under the Taliban the heroin business had all but disappeared. It is only since the invasion that it has moved on from strength to strength.

    There may be other reasons for not pulling out of Afghanistan - as yet I have to hear one that convinces me - but these are not the ones.

  • allnamestaken allnamestaken

    23 Nov 2009, 5:50PM

    A glittering opportunity for Seamus to be wrong twice - once on the surge in Iraq and again on a second one in Afghanistan.

    But I'm not sure how to respond to a communist who calls something a pipe dream.

    Especially when it has already worked once.

    I suppose people apply different evidence standards depending on ideology.

    "It is exactly what the Americans did in Iraq", the British commander Brigadier James Cowan says. "That is what we need to do here."

    Nice to hear.

    The Americans learned about the practice of laser guided ordinance from the Brits during the first Gulf War.

    It's good to see that we can also contribute. I guess we're not all thick despite the popular sentiment here at CiF.

  • lovemymod lovemymod

    23 Nov 2009, 5:50PM

    From an Afghan warlord's perspective it's hard to see a downside to prolonging this state of affairs for as long as possible.

    not just from the warlord's perspective - from every Afghans' perspective - the money will trickle up and down (the warlord will pay protection too) until it is in no Afghans' interest for the US et al to pull out.

  • exArmy exArmy

    23 Nov 2009, 6:15PM

    allnamestaken

    wrote

    A glittering opportunity for Seamus to be wrong twice - once on the surge in Iraq and again on a second one in Afghanistan.

    But we are still paying the surge today in Iraq. The main thrust of the surge was to pay the various big groups not to fight each other.

    A sort of protection racket if we pay you, then you dont cause any trouble.
    The question is how long can America continue to pay protection money to Iraq and Afghanistan.

    When the Romans ran out of money all those they were paying protection money to turned on them.

    Also now you America is looking to pay protection money the various groups in Mexico, The Narco civil war.

    My question is what does it take to get on the American Taxpayers gravy train and start shoveling up those lovely greenbacks.

  • sarka sarka

    23 Nov 2009, 6:17PM

    "But it's also the delusion of occupiers through the ages that you can kill off people's determination to run their own country by handing them wads of notes."

    Bejaysus Seamus,
    I don't understand some of you starry-eyed Marxisant types.

    On the one hand you are always lecturing us on how all world politics is about the machinations of capitalist/imperalist cash.

    And then you turn round and tell us romantically that no one could ever kill off "people's determination to run their own country by handing them wads of notes".

    Ach, maybe what you mean is that eventually, come the apocalpse and the world-victory-of-the-proletariat (or valiant little nations or whatever), the evil imperialist-capitalist cash will have proved vain.

    You seem to have convinced yourself that the Taliban is the authentic voice of the will of the Afghan people to self-determination, or some such simplistic piffle...

    Hum. Meanwhile, the fact is that countless historical examples show the power of cash, and also the power of weapons, to buy off all kinds of people from all kinds of agendas. It is just that this power is never unlimited and depends on circs for its usefulness.

    Let's have analyses of Afghanistan based on realism, please, and not sentimental closed rhetorical systems on either side.

  • HardTruths HardTruths

    23 Nov 2009, 6:20PM

    And what would you do about the terrorists associated with al-qaida and the taliban? Would they face justice, or just the UK cabinet?

    Not a big deal. If they break the law in Britain, it's up to the police to catch them like any other criminals. I don't get my knickers in a twist if the odd bank robber goes uncaught, after all.

    And why just the UK cabinet? Why not all the politicians of every country on earth who supported - politicall, financially or morally - the US invasion? If not, why not?

    Practicality.

    More to the point, what would you have done after 9/11? Nothing?

    Dealing with non-state "terrorism" is simple, in principle. Terrorist acts in general are crimes, and should be dealt with as such. Where an organisation engages in a campaign of such acts, its members will undoubtedly be caught or killed in fairly short order. The only circumstance in which they will not is if they have a substantial degree of popular support.

    The answer then is to take away their popular support as far as possible by ceasing doing whatever unjust acts you are doing that are fuelling that popular support. In the case of anti-western islamist violence, the west needs to stop interfering in other countries' internal affairs and stop giving Israel unconditional support in its aggressive policies. Those are things we should be stopping doing anyway, because they are wrongful, which is why this policy is not one of appeasement.

    Any residual terrorism remaining once the above has been done should just be viewed as simple criminal activity. Unfortunate for the few who get caught up in it but of no political significance.

    The above is The Answer to "terrorism". It is not acceptable to those in power in the west because it involves sacrificing what is most important to them: their power and prestige on the world stage. Worse, in the absence of an external threat, there might be pressure for security budgets to be cut, bureaucratic empires to be trimmed, and greater liberty and governmental openness in western societies. Those are not acceptable outcomes for our elite.

  • ZOTZ ZOTZ

    23 Nov 2009, 6:24PM

    "At best, it will buy a breathing space to create the political cover for a negotiated US and Nato withdrawal."

    So, I gather that Milne believes that it would be preferable to run like hell and let Afghanistan return to the terrorist paradise it was in 2001? The payment system to the tribal maliks began during the British Empire and was so successful that it was continued by the Pakistanis after independance. It is a main goal of the Taliban to break this system by targeted assassinations of opposition tribal leaders.

    The Taliban government is a hierarchal system with Mullah Omar at the top. Needless to say this authoritarian structure creates tensions among freedom loving Pashtuns. Occasionally, tribal leaders rebel against Taliban rule. These fissures are what CDI is trying to exploit. It requires a detailed knowledge of Pashtun inter-tribal politics. The Pashtuns are made up of many sub-tribes and sub-sub-tribes. There is a danger of the groups being supported by CDI going rogue but so far these groups are being given ammunition and equipment such as radios. They are not being armed with weapons. It is an experiment in counter-infiltration that could yield major results.

    The more time and resources the Taliban spend controlling their base the less time and resources they will have to use for offensive operations. It exploits an obvious Taliban weakness. No wonder Seumas hates the idea.

  • ZOTZ ZOTZ

    23 Nov 2009, 6:39PM

    I have read nothing suggesting that the US Army is making direct cash payments. The tribal groups are being given ammo, equipment, and food.
    The CIA does make cash payments but that is for intelligence.

  • Batleymuslim Batleymuslim

    23 Nov 2009, 7:21PM

    Seumas Milne wrote:

    US and British commanders on the ground have already begun to fund and equip Afghan militias to help fight the Taliban.

    Which I suppose is a lot worse in your book than the EU handing over $1 Billion to Nigeria (only the most corrupt nation in Africa) in order to keep the peace or the fact that Italy was paying the Taliban not to attack them, but when they handed over to the French they left that snippet out which saw the money hungry Taliban attack the French (killing 10) in an attempt to get a few more readies.

    But here?s the catch. This article is all about paying folks off. So what have we been doing with all the Aid money we have pumped into the third world for the last 40 years.

    How about the British immigration practice of paying criminals who are banged up to go home with a few readies in their pocket as well as shaving time off their sentence if they go without a protest.

    In fact Seumas the world has handed over far more money to the third world (Just look at Browns handouts alone) without conditions than what the Yanks are doing here. At least they can stop paying out if they don?t see some form of tangible result in the near future. (You know like how a mole catcher ties his kill onto a fence) the Third world after Loads of money is still the third world.
    So what?s the problem.
    Silly me you hate the US. and everything it stands for . Why didn?t you just say so instead of beating around the BUSH.
    P.S
    What music have you got on your Apple I-Pod?

  • Berchmans Berchmans

    23 Nov 2009, 7:21PM

    Seumas

    .

    Thank you for this.

    .

    B

    .

    Gigolo

    ## the UK and USA cannot just sit back and allow Afghanistan to become a failed state run by the Taliban##

    .

    You talk as if we have the moral authority to make such judgements as we slaughter our way across the ME .

    .

    allnamestaken

    .

    ## But I'm not sure how to respond to a communist ##

    .

    How quaint.. a commyanist ??? ...I know for a fact that there are 57 in the State Department

    Apols to the Manchurian Candidate

    B

  • Berchmans Berchmans

    23 Nov 2009, 7:30PM

    Armaros

    ## It was effective in Iraq.##

    .

    This are Afghanis....not Iraqis .....they bonked the Red Army...you may have heard of them....Bad bad 8@57@rd5 who will have used horror beyond imagination....but still lost.

    It will not work ..our forces will get porked ...and keyboard generals like you despite showing great braveness as you press enter will have to admit defeat,

    B

  • navidpopsy navidpopsy

    23 Nov 2009, 7:35PM

    You are absolutely right. Perhaps we ought to buy an exit strategy or even a face saving foumula with the same money from this Imperiaist war. That would be a better use of the money.

  • namordnik namordnik

    23 Nov 2009, 7:46PM

    The only "secret weapon" you've got left is to politely ask Chinese, Russkies, Indians and maybe even Iranians to collectively take Afghanistan (and Pakistan?) off your useless western hands and to sort it out as they see fit. But it will cost you for messing it up for so long. At least next time you'll have to think twice when others tell you not to start wars which you cannot win.

  • chagall chagall

    23 Nov 2009, 7:46PM

    Bejaysus Seamus

    sarka, his name is Seumas, not Seamus, and I don't think he's Irish anyway. So you can ease off on the casual racism - it's not even remotely amusing.

  • exArmy exArmy

    23 Nov 2009, 7:48PM

    ZOTZ

    wrote

    The more time and resources the Taliban spend controlling their base the less time and resources they will have to use for offensive operations. It exploits an obvious Taliban weakness.

    The old if you dont have a strategy just carry on doing the same and hope to wear the other side down plan.

    And what offensive operations are you talking about.

    This is not a sarcastic comment, just want to get your idea of what you think the offensive capabilities of the Taliban are, and could be.

    I have to say I admire you almost total believe in the plans and operations of our side. After all 8 years later a couple trillion spent the war on terror is going splendidly.

    I just wish I knew who it was going splendidly for.

  • mountgomery mountgomery

    23 Nov 2009, 7:51PM

    alinamestaken

    I guess we're not all thick despite the popular sentiment here at CiF.

    Not all you're not, in fact the majority seem to currently oppose the war in Iraq, and a big percentage the war in Afghanistan.

  • exArmy exArmy

    23 Nov 2009, 7:52PM

    Batleymuslim

    wrote

    How about the British immigration practice of paying criminals who are banged up to go home with a few readies in their pocket as well as shaving time off their sentence if they go without a protest.

    I agree with you we need to tighten our borders, shut them down and then go through recent immigrants with a fine tooth comb.

    Stop shelling out money abroad to fight other peoples wars or sort there problems ouyt.

    Maybe its a good idea to vote the BNP in they at least will cut all this paying out huge amounts abroad.

  • ZOTZ ZOTZ

    23 Nov 2009, 8:01PM

    "This is not a sarcastic comment"

    Too bad. That seems to be your greatest skill, other than avoiding my questions about your voting record.

    "just want to get your idea of what you think the offensive capabilities of the Taliban are, and could be."

    The Taliban are quite open about their strategy for defeating the West. I suggest you read more and write less.

    And no, you needn't tell me what your suggestion for me is. I already know!
    LOL!

  • exArmy exArmy

    23 Nov 2009, 8:09PM

    ZOTZ

    wrote

    The Taliban are quite open about their strategy for defeating the West. I suggest you read more and write less.

    In other words you dont know, it was just a throw away remark. And not to sure what you mean by my suggestion for you. Is that a come on.

    As for my voting record if its that important to you I vote conservative, not that I think they are the best thing since sliced bread. But beggers cant be choosey and we dont have that much choice.

    Although I am leaning towards another political party, which has a bt of a bad reputation

  • allnamestaken allnamestaken

    23 Nov 2009, 8:13PM

    Berchmans
    23 Nov 2009, 7:21PM

    How quaint.. a commyanist ??? ...I know for a fact that there are 57 in the State Department.

    Communists are indeed quaint and more than a little twee.

    One's ears prick up when one of those rare finds starts talking about pies in the sky.

    If there are 57 communists in the State Department all I can say is there didn't use to be.

    And I'm afraid you have my accent all wrong.

  • ZOTZ ZOTZ

    23 Nov 2009, 8:28PM

    exArmy-
    Hekmatyar said that they would do to us what they did to the Russians. They intend to bleed us white over a long time period with hit and run attacks, IEDs, political assassination of government officials and pro-government tribal leaders, and attacks on supply lines. This is done while they infiltrate cities and villiages, set up shadow governments with courts and taxes. The people will be coerced into submission by using threats (night letters). The police and Afghan Army will be infiltrated so that their effectiveness can be neutralised and eventually they will defect (as happened in the Russian war) Over time it will be obvious that Afghanistan is ungovernable and the coalition will seek a way out. Some say this strategy is already working.

    "I am leaning towards another political party, which has a bt of a bad reputation"p>Do you mean the BNP?"

  • madhatter madhatter

    23 Nov 2009, 8:28PM

    The problem with the NATO strategy of building up the Afghan Army, Police, Local Militias is that Afghanistan is a very poor country.

    I read that eventually 1 person in 32 in Afghanistan is going to be in the Security Forces of one sort or another. Afghanistan is never going to be able to sustain such an apparatus

    As soon as we hand over security to the Afghan Government they are gong to find that they can't pay for this enormous apparatus and I think that US and European taxpayers are going to be reluctant to foot the bill essentially an infinitum.

    I can't see that the strategy as outlined by the US command can do anything more than ensure that our convoys are not shot at as we drive through Kyber Pass on our way home

  • DavidPSummers DavidPSummers

    23 Nov 2009, 8:38PM

    But it's also the delusion of occupiers through the ages that you can kill off people's determination to run their own country by handing them wads of notes.

    Of course the only reason to suppose such determination is the left's need to put everything in colonial terms. The evidence is that most Afghanis, if given the choice, would not choose the Taliban. Regardless of whether most people in Afghanistan wanted Karzai (and even the election corruption was "native grown" rather than a "foreign imposition") what the Taliban are fighting for isn't for Aghanis to run their own country, but for their minority to impose their rule on everyone one else.

  • madhatter madhatter

    23 Nov 2009, 8:50PM

    The evidence is that most Afghanis, if given the choice, would not choose the Taliban. Regardless of whether most people in Afghanistan wanted Karzai (and even the election corruption was "native grown" rather than a "foreign imposition") what the Taliban are fighting for isn't for Aghanis to run their own country, but for their minority to impose their rule on everyone one else.

    All of this may be true and totally beside the point which is how Afghans decide to run the country and the methods used are NONE OF OUR BUSSINESS

  • mountgomery mountgomery

    23 Nov 2009, 8:58PM

    Batleymuslim

    So what have we been doing with all the Aid money we have pumped into the third world for the last 40 years.

    Let me see. You've supported coups in El Congo, Chile, Argentina, to name a few, murdered a few presidents, and manipulated that "aid" to run clandestine operations that your own State department didn't know about.

    Silly me you hate the US. and everything it stands for . Why didn?t you just say so instead of beating around the BUSH.

    Yes, silly alright. So a country wants to play the new Roman Empire and dictate its laws across the globe, even at the expense of civilians, and all you can think of is that its detractors must "hate" it?

    So when you call Nigeria "corrupt" by your own logic it must mean that you hate Nigeria, right?

    Ask your own people if they "hate" the US when they don't agree with its foreign policy. How simplistically silly.

  • exArmy exArmy

    23 Nov 2009, 9:19PM

    DavidPSummers

    wrote

    Of course the only reason to suppose such determination is the left's need to put everything in colonial terms. The evidence is that most Afghanis, if given the choice, would not choose the Taliban.

    So if the majority of the people of Afghanistan dont want the taliban back, well there are enough of them, a lot armed to the teeth in the sort of weaponry thats suited for that sort of warfare. With a lot of experience in fighting that sort of war to stop the Taliban from coming back.

    They oppose the Taliban so much we have to pay them for the privilege of protecting them.

  • jabral jabral

    23 Nov 2009, 9:27PM

    Could Hitler have paid DM to the English for not fighting for their freedom and liberty under German occupation?

    Afghans are fighting a war to liberate their homeland from the Western occupation and live as a free people.

  • exArmy exArmy

    23 Nov 2009, 9:37PM

    ZOTZ

    wrote

    Hekmatyar said that they would do to us what they did to the Russians.

    Got you so the offensive war is going to be on Afgahnistan territory, against the present government.

    Well they didnt do anything to the Soviets that was another group. But what did the other group do to the Soviets well the war forced the Soviets out. That was it, that was all that happend. The Soviets left.

    Afghanistan the fell into a period of war lords and civil wars based on ethnic and tribal divisions. I recognize your shadow government model thats was the VC modal.

    Well this is not Vietnam, a lot of those villige and tribal groups are more than able to deal with the Taliban.

    The Taliban are not organised like the VC, they dont have the infrastructure and most importantly they dont have the NVA.

    In fact in this scenario the VC turned against the North and the NVA are fighting the VC on North Vietnam territory.

    You cant control a territory purley by force you need some carrot as well. The last time the Taliban took over they had the following advanatages.

    1) They were a totally new unknown to the people of Afghanistan.

    2) They had massive military support from Pakistan training, resources direct support in fire support, logistics, transport.

    3) Pakistan helped pave the way by the use of bribe money paying local tribal leaders to support the Taliban.

    4) They promised security and stability to the people of Afghanistan Security and stability outweigh freedom as a drug choice when you have none.

    Even then they did not control the whole of Afghanistan , and the parts they did control they did not control fully like every other occupation force in Afghanistan they were fighting a insurgency war.

    I agree with you Afghanistan is ungovernable, until the people of Afghanistan well not the people the movers and shakers decide they want to get together and sort out a stable Afghanistan.

    Until them, it will be another civil war going no where.

  • 1830 1830

    23 Nov 2009, 9:53PM

    You talk as if we have the moral authority to make such judgements as we slaughter our way across the ME .

    This is utterly absurd and totally irrational.

    1. Making a modal judgement need not presuppose that the person making it is a moral authority. No doubt the person you are criticising is not the equal of Kant or Aristotle. That in and of itself does not mean that their judgement is awry. If the standard were that high, nobody would ever pass judgement.

    2. Who is "we"?

    3. A person does not lack moral authority because of the way his government acts in another country. Suppose we are "slaughter[ing] our way across the middle east". Does that mean that the subjects of the governments pursuiing that policy are debarred from offering any moral views? The idea is utterly preposterous.

    4. What has the observation that we are "slaughter[ing] our way across the middle east" (whatever that means) got to do with making a judgement on the current situation in Afghanistan (or anywhere else)? Absolutely nothing as far as one can tell. Suppose we are doing just as you say. does that mean nobody outside the middle east is allowed to comment on events inside the middle east? The idea is completely incoherent. Sensible peopel can disagree about middle east policy. But no rational person can object that because the governments of Europe and America pursue a policy in the middle east that the citizens of Europe and America are debarred from passing judgement on events in the middle east.

  • 1830 1830

    23 Nov 2009, 9:59PM

    All of this may be true and totally beside the point which is how Afghans decide to run the country and the methods used are NONE OF OUR BUSSINESS

    This is absurd and potentially disatrous.

    First - the policies of other countries which pose threats often are our business. For instance, Iran is currently pursuiing a nuclear programme which coud lead to a nuclear bomb. Is that none is Israel's business? This view is difficult to take seriously.

    Second - it is our business if the leadership of Afghanistan are allied to the terrorists who blew up the twin towers. Again, the idea that this is none of our business simply makes no sense.

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