The new politics: Student riot marks end of Coalition's era of consensus

Tory HQ wrecked in worst street violence since 1990 poll tax riots

By Andy McSmith, Richard Garner, Oliver Wright and Rebecca Gonsalves

Thursday, 11 November 2010

A demonstrator kicks in a window at Millbank Tower as students and lecturers protest against university funding cuts

PA

A demonstrator kicks in a window at Millbank Tower as students and lecturers protest against university funding cuts

Student demonstrators brought violence to London's streets yesterday on a scale not seen since the poll tax riots of 20 years ago. The ferocity of the protest ended the high hopes of a new era of consensus politics, promised by David Cameron when he took office exactly six months ago.

It is expected to be the first of many angry demonstrations as the impact of the Government's cuts is felt. More than 50,000 people brought Westminster to a standstill with a peaceful march past Parliament to protest against the proposal to increase tuition fees to up to £9,000 a year.

But the demonstration turned nasty when a crowd smashed its way into the Conservative Party's headquarters in Millbank, cheered on by hundreds more outside. Terrified Tory staff barricaded themselves in their offices as demonstrators roamed the building. Those trapped inside included Baroness Warsi, the party's chairman, who kept in telephone contact with the police outside as furniture was thrown through windows, the interior was trashed and a ceiling was pulled down. A fire extinguisher was thrown off the roof at police in the crowded courtyard below.

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Slogans such as "Tory scum", and others more obscene, were scrawled across walls in paint and marker pen. Lights were ripped down and placards were burnt. Water fire-extinguishers were also let off from the roof and eggs thrown. Eight people, including three police officers, were taken to hospital.

Police were clearly unprepared for the planned attack. Riot officers were outnumbered, with 30 desperately trying to hold their line and protect the Millbank building beneath a steady bombardment. Reinforcement attempts were made as darkness fell, but the officers were driven back by protesters.

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Four hundred students crowded the building's entrance as the night set in. Police were met with a hail of poles – some of which had been set alight – and cries of "shame on you" and "scum". Others continued to protest inside the building behind a police cordon.

The Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson admitted afterwards: "It's not acceptable. It's an embarrassment for London and for us."

The perpetrators were very young, surprisingly well-mannered and rather middle-class. Some of those hurling insults or wooden placard polls at riot police were 15 and 16-years-olds who had bunked off school and now stand a chance of getting a criminal record before they reach university. The early arrest count stood at 35 and rising.

Until yesterday, the British reaction to the proposed cuts has been remarkably mild compared with mass protests in France, Greece and other countries.

Some of the protesters blamed the confrontation on police. Oscar, 18, a sixth-form politics student, claimed: "It was disgusting, man. They got their batons out and were knocking people to the floor. A girl was hit on the head. It's just made people more angry."

The previously peaceful demonstration had earlier disrupted Prime Minister's Questions, with an estimated 52,000 protesters cramming into Whitehall. Their chanting rang around the Palace of Westminster as Nick Clegg tried to defend the Coalition's cuts.

With no suspicion of the violence that was soon to break out, Labour MPs lined up to taunt Mr Clegg about the pledge that all 57 Liberal Democrat MPs signed before the election, promising to oppose any increase in tuition fees. Harriet Harman, deputising for the Labour leader Ed Miliband, roused jeering laughter when she asked: "In April this year, the Deputy Prime Minister said that it was his aim to end university tuition fees. Can he update the House on how his plan is progressing?"

Mr Clegg replied: "I have been entirely open about the fact that we have not been able to deliver the policy that we held in opposition." The violence was condemned by the official organisers of yesterday's march. Aaron Porter, president of the National Union of Students, accused a "small minority" of having "hijacked" the event and described the violence as "despicable".

Students involved in the siege defended their action, claiming that a peaceful march would have been ignored. One very well-spoken 16-year-old from

Worcestershire, named Alex, had been up on the roof and was wearing his scarf across his face in a rather feeble attempt to hide his identity. He thought the violence was justified "as long as no one gets hurt". "This is fucking amazing," he said. "You should go up on the roof. It's chaos up there: they've graffitied all over the walls." He added: "I want to study journalism when I finish school, if I can afford it. People are really pissed off."

Andrew Speake, a 23-year-old Chinese studies student in Manchester, described what he saw as "a necessary evil", although he added: "The best way is not violence, it's debate and argument."

Simran Hans, a first-year English literature student from Manchester, said: "Education should be free: a rise in fees will deny people a universal right. I don't know if my family would be able to support me if the fees were more. Everyone who is in politics now benefited from free education."

The rioters, reputedly organised by a revolutionary group from Leeds, released a statement saying: "We are occupying the roof in opposition to the marketisation of education pushed through by the Coalition Government, and the system they are pushing through of helping the rich and attacking the poor. We call for direct action to oppose these cuts. This is only the beginning of the resistance."

Yesterday's demonstration was the biggest by students since the mid-1980s when they protested against an attempt to bring in tuition fees by Margaret Thatcher's government, but that protest ended peacefully. In the Thatcher years, there was an outbreak of inner-city rioting in 1981, but that was not linked to any organised political protest. There was political violence on the picket line during the miners' strike, and a protest against the poll tax in 1990 turned into a riot. But more recent demonstrations, such as against the Iraq war in 2003, passed off peacefully.

Collateral damage

The Conservatives were far from the only people who suffered the ire of angry students at yesterday's protests at the Millbank complex. The 30-floor tower on the north side of the Thames is also home to a number of government agencies, including the Environment Agency, the Audit Commission and the Parliamentary Ombudsman. Hundreds of workers had to be evacuated.

Conservative HQ moved to Millbank in 2007 from their more famous home at 32 Smith Square, via a short stint in airy offices on Victoria Street. The current Tory Party chairman Baroness Warsi also has an office there. As it is only a five-minute walk from the Palace of Westminster, past the TV studios of BBC, Sky and ITN, it is within the "division bell area" – MPs can make it back in time to vote when the division is called.

Ten years ago, the ground floor of the tower was where Alastair Campbell and Peter Mandelson created the New Labour spin machine so crucial to its electoral success. They, like previous occupants, including the United Nations, moved out shortly afterwards after complaining about the building's astronomical rents.

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  • PeterGee
    Having wasted a little of my life reading your rather troll-like comments on this thread, I found myself wondering what it is that happened in your life to turn you into such an unpleasant person. Obviously, I can see that you are a dyed-in-the-wool Tory, but your comments rather sound as though they come from someone that wished they were "upper-class", when in reality you are just the butler. If your only contribution to the columns of this newspaper is to hector and attack those whose views you despise, perhaps you would be better off staying with the Express or the Mail - or even the Star. Now, perhaps you and your chum, Lord EggOnFace, might like to consider that without educated young people, the country you claim to be so fond of would continue to slither further into the mire of ignominious failure when there are no people able to actually make a contribution to the future of the country. Education is not something to be considered as optional to the future of Britain, it is an imperative. Views such as yours are exactly the views which will drive Britain into abject failure in the future, but it is clear that you do not care in the slightest what happens to 'your' country in the future - only what is in your little purse today.
  • lycias
    Yes and all that tax money goes solely on Media students (and slackers on the dole). We're very lucky to live in Glorious Britain, the only Western country that hasn't had its un-skilled job market exported to China et al., rendering higher education absolutely useless. In good old fashioned Britain you don't need a degree to get a job! And yet still those pesky students milk the poor working classes for three years! And then disappear into the ether, never to pay a single penny in taxes or to contribute to the economy or society in any way! Outrageous! Nice of you to think of our great grand children though, let's hope they never study economics for more than 10 minutes because then they will realise that wreckless american bankers caused the crisis and greedy english tories exploited it to destroy the state, rather than believing your story of Labour unilaterally deciding to just "splurge" and spend a lot on... well, presumably nothing. And of course, as for the Indy comment section being full of lefties, shocking stuff.
  • the scale to the riots is a fair reflection of the deception that was committed. it is understandable. has anybody kept track of the sheer amount of election pledges that has been broken? in america if a president lies to the public there is a mechanism to force them out of office, eg clinton. why do we have lower standards than america? how can we claim to have a functioning democracy in this country if we are not made aware of what the candidates will do if elected. it brings the whole electoral system into question. when that labour mp told lies on his leaflets the case went to court. but when a whole party tell lies nothing happends. there should be a clear law which forces a party to recall an election if a significant number of election pledges are broken, then we wouldn't have all the lies.
  • hoinarylup
    I'd like to know why the police failed to protect Tory HQ. Was this an accident or was it an "accident"? It has long been known that not all of the police are ecstatic about being used as a politicised militia to protect politicians from the consequences of bad and unpopular decisions that hurt the great mass of ordinary people. Also, many police come from middle-to-lower income backgrounds that will be especially hard hit by the cuts. Cameron should be careful.
  • road2zion
    The divide between the rich and the poor will grow when people of our generation would much rather see communism than elitism. We are all here for a brief sojurn for what purpose we know not though sometimes think we feel it. We are all born equal and should all have equal opportunities
  • murdochlies
    What about the violence of poverty. The violence of having your income taken from you. The violence of unemployment and the destruction of families. What about having your pension stolen by city spivs who are in hock to us but have their life styles and incomes ring fenced. The muggers in pin stripe suits have mugged the nation just as any violent mugger on the street yet the rest of us are paying a very heavy cost for something we had nothing to do with. Rothchild, Ashcroft and Green are getting away with our wealth and savings. Why are they ring fenced and the innocent pick up the bill?We have violence because our democracy is broken. It is wholly owned by the rich and controlled media. Demonstrating quietly in some back street serves the cause of the rich establishment so they can conveniently ignore the demonstration. So plea become a shout, a shout becomes a yell, a yell becomes a scream and a scream becomes a brick and a brick becomes a bomb. The Tory future for this country is a terrifying violent one. If we had a working functional democracy and an equal society with opportunity we would not have so called violence. The rich can mug us legally without throwing a punch, we are left with no other option.
  • Dr_Spooner
    I'm glad the independent didn't single out those pesky anarchists like all the other newspapers. From what I could see there were plenty of students joining in with the antics. At no point did any of the thousands of students at the Tory HQ have a word with the people taking part in the destruction. Maybe the anarchists where the agitators, But it goes to show that deep down the people there wanted to vent the angers in that medium. I for one am glad to see it happening. By this I don't mean throwing fire extinguishers off roofs, that was beyond stupid and saying it was moronic is being nice, but damaging government property is a way to show people aren't just going to sit back and say ' Well I'm not happy with what your doing but I'm not going do anything about it' in our boring British way. Its an irrational act caused by an irrational act.

    Things will only get worse and the violence will escalate and it won't just be students, it will be train drivers, civil servants and anyone else who have been hit hard by this coalition. These elitist, Eton-taught ethics of helping the rich while the poor stay poor don't work in modern society.

    Of course Its 'Labour's Deficit' when they're creating mass unemployment. New Labour is and was useless but its the less of two evils and one government can't be blamed for a global economic situation.

    The people have spoken, This coalition needs to collapse or be dismantled. either will do.
  • tamba
    So, you assume because I don't agree with your notion that students' are all just bloodsuckers, dossers and anarchists, that I am a student? Actually, I finished school after A-Levels and went straight in to the working world. I have never signed on the dole, I have never been to University, and I have never claimed any form of benefit in anyway. So, before you jump to conclusions, try and ascertain all of the facts. You are correct, there are far better people than me in Afghanistan. A good number of them Afghani I would assume. Did you know that they aren't all terrorist? Probably not, as that's not what it says in the Daily Mail. It's all very good for you to sit behind the safety of your computer and vent your frustrations at the world, but have you ever actually acted on anything? Have you ever felt so strongly about something that you knew you must act rather than sit with your bare ar*e raised for the tax man to come along and shaft you. Probably a shafting by the taxman would be welcomed in your case, but he would need to manoeuvre round that rod that is already stuck up your ar*e.
  • tamba
    Let me guess? You've been in University yourself, Probably a few years ago... when the Government paid for it. But now you are a tax payer, you want to see your money spent elsewhere, in areas that would directly benefit you. Do you think if the government increases VAT to 20%, and then move to increase other taxes, you wouldn't mind? Now the student sector will be paying for itself, the money saved by the tax payer could be used in a host of different ways! Infact, I was just thinking the other - I hope they increase taxes so I can put more of my money towards our profitable war in Iraq/Afghanistan! They have already found their oil, so the end should be in sight with a nice juicy payout for the UK. Money which will ofcourse be reinvested in invading another country holding vast quantities of oil, rather than to boost our economy and avoid further cuts. We are perpetuating war overseas with a massive initial cost, which is covered by the tax payer. Does the fact that the Government is essentially the ultimate terrorist not bother you? We go in to countries, start a war, take the resources, and then leave with a massive trail of death and destruction in our wake. Let's hope you don't have any children to put through University. Although, if worse comes to worst, I hear the army is recruiting....
  • tamba
    Haha, yet another example of how one can become brainwashed by reading too much of the Mail. Labour ruined the economy?? Oooooooooh. It was probably only the UK though, it's not as if there was A GLOBAL RECESSION! Seriously, I can't believe someone like you is actually trying to form arguments on the basis of what you hear from the new Government. May I ask, how often in the past when a new party moves in to power do they say "Infact, the finaces are in sterling order, and as such we won't need to make any cuts". The answer you are looking for is never, this is because they have to try and justify their new cuts being imposed on the nation, and what way to clear yourself from wrong-doing - by blaming the previous party in power! Tbh, I didn't realise Toffs knew how to use computers so I find your typing skills nothing short of remarkable. But the question on everyone's lips has to be - Mr. abcdef, Shouldn't you be out hunting down foxes and shooting pheasants on your estate?
  • Joemags
    No abcdef, it is the (so-called) polititians that are the scum and disgraceful, as this lot broke every promise and pledge they made before the election! Is that not criminal? By the way, neither Mob was elected to govern, that's why they had to form a coalition (or didn't your mummy teach you that abcdef?). As I said in my first post I hope people keep it up as it's the only thing governments like this listen to (and it scares them!).
  • Central Europeans? Funny that is Uncle, but throughout my lifetime, Poland, and what is now the Czech Republic have been described as 'Eastern Europe.'

    Labour has encouraged helplessness amongst the lazy and feckless. That can be seen by the doubling of the numbers of people living off state support and a vast increase in housing benefit. State support of course means that ordinary, not very well paid people, tip up from their pay packets without their consent to keep the idle and the feckless. This is a mad system. No one would object to help for the deserving, but anyone who thinks that most of those on state support these days are 'deserving' is a fool.
  • " but probably not malicious" How can an adult throw a heavy object such as a fire extinguisher off a high building into a crowd of policemen and NOT be malicious? I'd really like to know. Logic isn't your strong suit is it?
  • Julia, the media has not 'spun' anything. It has been very well reported on broadcast and in print media that a very large demonstration passed off in a largely peaceful and good natured manner. It was extensively covered on Question Time last night in that way, and on News Night the day before. However, an event such as that which occurred at Millbank was so outrageous that it was bound to receive enormous coverage and to overshadow discussion of the perceived grievance of the people who protested peacefully.

    Sadly, in spite of the sensible stand taken by the president of the NUS, there are radical idealogues in the ranks of the NUS structure such as Claire Soloman, President of the NUS at UCL. This 37 year old harridan encouraged the invasion and admitted to being inside the building on Wednesday's Newsnight programme. The NUS needs to cast out such criminals, and I hope the courts will take action. Those inside that building committed mass burglary, and probably aggravated burglary which has a significant sentence attached
  • Thanks. I wonder what you two have ever achieved. I wonder how much tax you have paid for the good of others, and I wonder if at the end of your lives your balance sheet with the tax man will show you contributed more than you sucked up in support and care. Mine will be vastly in credit. Yours I suspect will be the other way. So do I care that a couple of lefty, welfare suckers think me a buffoon? Hell no. In fact, I rejoice in it.
  • Perhaps you'd rather they regarded all gatherings of young as gatherings of thugs and criminals? The police did not riot. Some young and not so young thug anarchists did. THEY are the ones to blame, not the police. I am astonished at the ridiculous assertions I see bandied about here. Get a grip on reality, and put the blame where it lies.
  • Wah wah rappity whah...... 1. I have been paying taxes in this country for forty and more years. Vast amounts of what I have earned have been paid for the good of others. I have never claimed anything, never been in hospital, never had a penny. About forty to fifty percent of my lifetime earning s have been devoted to government spending. I do not resent this, but I DO have a right to have a say, without some snidy turd of a kid, linking me to wars I opposed. 2. I have brought up three sons to adulthood, and have paid at least £50,000 out of my after tax income for their higher education. In addition, they left university with combined personal debts of perhaps another £40,000. Don't lecture me or mine about the cost of higher education. They are now however all working in professional careers and are paying taxes for your future education. Show some respect to those who are still contributing to your support and benefit. 3. You could do a lot worse than join the army to fight for your country. It would do you good and help remove your inclination to suck off the taxpayer without contributing yourself. There are far better men than you in Afghanistan. They stand on their own feet, and prevent barbarians from persecuting those weaker than them.
  • This is possibly the best article I've read about the protest. I attended but was not involved in riots or violence; like the majority of people, I simply wanted my voice heard and was happy to protest peacefully. Having said that, I understand why many felt the need to push things further. I cannot agree with certain aspects of the violence but saying that, would the event have received this much coverage if it had ended peacefully? Would people have even cared? Maybe if the police had acted quicker and there had actually been more of them, things wouldn?t have been so bad; during the three hours we marched we saw five police offers. This simply isn?t good enough and shows that as a whole, before the violence, students were not taken seriously. It's a total injustice that the government can even consider destroying the future of education; if we allow this to happen we have to think about what may be next. As a university student, I know I wouldn?t be here if fees increased; without EMA I also would probably have considered going straight into employment. Students yesterday were not simply protesting for themselves; we were defending the rights of future generations and the children we may have. I was protesting for the right to keep education free AND accessible to everybody regardless of class or wealth; not to cause havoc and set fire to stuff.
  • There speaks an anarchist rabble rouser. I hope MI5 have logged your IP address and call on you shortly.
  • JohnnyNorfolk
    Labour never dealt with any of this, its their fault.
  • I am from Paris I have a close relation to the UK. After seeing what has been happening in London. Your Government The Tory's only have themselves to blame. The elder and wiser are suppose to help the young generations, Not cripple young ones financial and physical.
  • Joemags
    Good on them! I hope the students (and everyone else) keep it up, it's the only thing governments like this listen to. Most of these same (so-called) polititians (I call them creeps, and worse) voted for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (among others) where hundreds of thousands of people have been killed and they're whinging about a poxy office building getting wrecked.
  • ameliemaryann
    The vile hypocrisy of 'our leaders' is breathtaking. They deprive children of a decent education, drive them into 'Uni' to study something, it doesn't really matter what, as 'our leaders' are simply massaging the unemployment figures for as long as they can. Then they charge them thousands of pounds for very often a useless degree in a market where there are no jobs anyway as those have been given to 'better qualifed people' imported from overseas. "There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and that is an idea whose time has come".
  • scampy2
    Get that fat git in the burka into bed Nabil and shut up?
  • Oh, dear! What a different world you live in. I am retired, paid taxes all my lif, served in the Army in Ireland, as well as elsewhere, and got a free education at university as a very mature student. Of course there were thugs in the mix. There always are. I remember the thugs during the miners strikes, and most of them were wearing blue uniforms. People have a right to protest, although I disagree with the acts of violence, but it was this government that set the ball rolling, just as Thatcher did during the miners strikes. You may be happy with the status quo. Many of us are not. So come on you students. Show the rest of us the way but cut out the mindless violence. You lose the argument if you don't.
  • tamba
    So, you assume because I don't agree with your notion that students' are all just bloodsuckers, dossers and anarchists, that I am a student? Actually, I finished school after A-Levels and went straight in to the working world. I have never signed on the dole, I have never been to University, and I have never claimed any form of benefit in anyway. So, before you jump to conclusions, try and ascertain all of the facts. You are correct, there are far better people than me in Afghanistan. A good number of them Afghani I would assume. Did you know that they aren't all terrorist? Probably not, as that's not what it says in the Daily Mail. It's all very good for you to sit behind the safety of your computer and vent your frustrations at the world, but have you ever actually acted on anything? Have you ever felt so strongly about something that you knew you must act rather than sit with your bare ar*e raised for the tax man to come along and shaft you. Probably a shafting by the taxman would be welcomed in your case, but he would need to manoeuvre round that rod that is already stuck up your ar*e.
  • analiensaturn
    That would cause division.Better to seem to be united in what we like than divided in what we don't
  • analiensaturn
    It looked deliberate to me.What the intent was will come out later,or it maybe what the police want it to be.It was certainly reckless to what injury could be caused and to who,police or protestor.
  • analiensaturn
    Time and time again in the media we have watched the police kill people and get away with it.It may be an opinion you don't like but I don't think these young people give a damn about the police.
  • Sapho
    They will only become fussed if they fear, as Mrs Thatcher's Poll Tax rebels did, that they will lose their seats at the next election. You can burn the entire wardrobe of the House of Lords in the Strand and they will merely laugh: convincingly threaten to take their money and power away and they will defenestrate their mothers.
  • Sapho
    Trot lecturers/International Socialist leaders told me in the '70s that demos are for the morale of the ordinary folk, and to make publicity and recruit more proles. No reason to disbelieve them, have you?
  • You seem to be applying the term 'mob' to the wrong people. The 'mob' were not the representatives elected by the British People, but the scum rioting in the streets and smashing their way into buildings.


    These were neither typical of the majority on the march, nor are they or you typical of the British People. It is YOU and people like you that are disgraceful, not the properly elected people in Parliament who have been empowered to make law for the next five years.
  • Nineteen million people voted Conservative or Lib Dem. Eight point six million people voted Labour. You lost. The British People won. It is called 'democracy'. It means that you don't always get your own way. Didn't your mummy ever teach you that that would happen?
  • Guest
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  • juicegg
    Has it occurred to you that students can be anarchists and many anarchists are students? Or that non-anarchists might want to destroy Tory headquarters? Do you even know anything about anarchists or anarchism?
  • Henrrie
    It can't be a surprise to anyone with any sense that there will be riots in the street of the Uk after voting in a right wing mob supported by the Lib Dems, it will only get worse!!
  • London Calling and it's not just an album's name by the Clash anymore.
  • lycias
    Clare Solomon isn't president of the UCL union, she is president of the University of London Union, which makes a hell a lot of difference in terms of relevance. She can claim to be the president of the largest student union in Europe because King's and UCL (and other smaller unis) are nominally part of the University of London. However, King's and UCL et al. have their own unions, their own elections and their own Presidents. Solomon only actually received 749 votes (for comparison KCLSU's President Ryan Wain was elected with 1262 votes) and may not have won the seat at all if the other candidate had not been disqualified. The media should have done their homework and spoken to a representative of the students rather than someone a lot of students have never heard of, much less voted for.
  • lycias
    Well thank you for your scintillating, final-year-of-sixth-form opinions on who should have their heads kicked in. You should have gone to Millbank, and kicked one of those anarchist's head in, and then asked him if he'd re-assessed his opinions after a savage beating from Internet tough guy Michael Rundle. He would have replied "No", because some people are willing to bleed for what they believe in, however misguided. That's assuming you are in reality someone who is capable of kicking someone's head in and not just some middle-class Sixth Former who's closest contact to violence is a Tarantino flick.
  • Newsnight - Wed http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00vy678/Newsnight_10_11_2010/
  • the more successful countries in the EU pay more taxes than we do. Stop bellyaching and pay up. After all, this is your REAL complaint, isn't it? Having to make a decent contribution to your country. Perhaps you should consider moving. No-one will miss you
  • It could be worse guys. You could have Barrack Obama as your President - or in your case, Prime Minister.
  • Actually a four trillion pound debt according to a facinating program I saw here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOsqBf5hDjI One of the sobering facts to come out in this program was this. If a man stood at a window throwing out £50 notes at the rate of one per second it would 3000 years to get to the last one. Gotta love politcians. When they screw up they don't mess about. Of course, they always manage to ring fence their own finanaces while they do it which implys that they know exactly what they are doing.
  • ChiefHawkeye
    Mr abcdef. I am a little concerned you have too much time on your hands. You are obviously in your "senior years", and spend too much time in chat rooms. I have a feeling that the people around you are probobly tiered of listening to you constantly prattling on, and the only people that pay you any attention are strangers on the internet. Infact, Im certain most people you know think your an arrogant prat. Im certain that pretty much everyone here thinks you are. Do the decent thing and bow-out with dignity old man. I find your patronising change in demenour towards female posts unappealing. Also, you write like someone with "small-man syndrome", how tall are you exactly? You like to put people down and feel superior, your a pompus self-loving Tory, narrow and ridged in your thinking and have " I know best" syndrome ......exactly what is there that is likable about you as a person? Your gunna' have to work hard to win back the hearts and minds of the people! Go away and let interesting people have thier views on this blog, You have had more than your "fair" share of the airwaves......
  • This is bollocks. You don't live in the real world. This is the result of years of socialist governments in the UK creating an expectation that the world owes you a living. I'd have thought that the sight of millions of eastern Europeans uprooting themselves to come here to take the worst jobs on offer might teach some people that if things go wrong, it is up to YOU to do something about earning a living elsewhere. But no - lets scream about sucking on the socialist tit at other people's expense instead.
  • Hello,everybody,the good shoping place,In the Winter. Let's facelift bar! ."goshops " org.NHL Jersey, NFL Jersey, NBA Jersey, MLB Jersey, Sunglass AAA ect ... not of the update ...Zero freight, Free Shipping.
  • I wonder if you realise just how unpleasant you sound? A bit like those people who sat in judgement on the Inquisitions. Throwing (if that is what he did) a fire extinguisher is dangerous yes, but assuming it is also attempted muder is obscene and the intent to kill would need to be proved. It may be that this will prove to be the case but sitting there wishing it to be true betrays a frame of mind that is hardly healthy. I worry about you. Are you an MP by any chance? If not, perhaps you ought to be. Those ruthless, thieves would not notice your mind set among them so you could hope for a nice welcome. Failing that, you could possibly be a Lawyer. Or, worst of all, a feminist.
  • Actually, a brace of pheasant might go down well at the little tet a tet I have planned for Saturday. I'll take down the gun and walk around the woods tomorrow morning. Pheasant is of course better hung a while in the opinion of some, but I prefer it rather fresher myself, especially if one can find a young bird or two. Pip Pip Loser
  • So glad they have brought the thrower of the fire extinguisher to book. Chances are the violent disorder charges will be augmented with attempted murder.
  • Well said old chap! Bravo for a bit of common sense and good old fashioned British decency. I have been frankly disgusted by the foul observations of the socialist revolutionary front that seems to have taken over the comment section at the Independent. One would think we were in some perverted communistic state, to read their ludicrous puerile remarks. "Gi'me, gi'me, gi'me,' and, 'Let everybody pay but me.' They genuinely seem to think that they have a right to state support for anything they want, not realising that in order to pay for their 'Media Studies' degree, ordinary , low paid men and women of this country have to part with about half of what they earn. Tax in the UK does not stop at basic rate 20%, far from it. Even the low paid are taxed at 20% on vat, and at astronomical rates on petrol, alcohol and cigarettes. For those earning more than a mere £45, 000, there is higher rate tax and probably another 40% on the sale of their assets after death. Even these penal rates of tax leave at least ten percent of government spending on the never never, with our great grand children paying to fund the extravagance of Labours splurge. They need a darned good horsewhipping, those thugs
  • 9009MIKE9009
    I would be amazed if you had ever paid any taxes. You need to go back into your xbox.
  • scampy2
    Yes and Tony the phony Blair saw wor Jackie playing for the toon.
  • Dr_Spooner
    You don't strike me as one of these people who claim benefits and live in a council house who vote Tory therefore you're the type who go fox hunting and are happy with the Tories passing legislations that are smoke screens for their racist and classist policies. Its dumbfounding that so many people voted tory, we don't need a history lesson on what happened when Thatcher was in power. The general public are the fools, not I bourgeois parasite
  • Wow what an excellent solution, let them get on with it and don't try to help them, that will definitely work. I'm sure if you just leave them to it it will just fizzle out and no more harm will come to anyone. It was something like 200 protesters at Mill bank out of the 50,000 protesters, of that some 200 around 50 arrests were made ( not sure exactly how many). That is 0.01% of the protesters who got arrested for being violent, don't start stereotyping all students for what 0.01% of them did. Education is a right not a privilege, perhaps thats one reason as to why they got angry in the first place. It wasn't right for them to get violent towards police, they were only doing their jobs trying to protect. But by making the tuition fees that high, the poor and averagely well off will mostly choose not to go to university for fear of major debt aftwards. This can only lead many of the population to get angrier and poorer, which will in turn lead to more possible violence. Your suggestion would only make things worse.
  • waterbase
    Are joker, batman and two-face coming out to play yet?
  • agent0060
    I appreciate the vote. I'd like to return the thought but my "Like" buttons don't seem to have any effect. I note your comments regarding the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, but have you thought this through. Non-compliance is fine in principle, but what if the government of the day does not give the option not to comply. For example, my income comes from a pension. The government is already talking about wages, salaries and, no doubt, pensions being initially paid to a government department so that tax etc. can be assessed and deducted before the rest is paid to the intended recipient. Once they have that in place, it would be too easy to also deduct council tax or anything else. I still have a car. What is to stop them also deducting the fee for the tax disc when they choose? This is why, in my opinion, direct action may be unavoidable. I should mention that I have already sent an enquiry to my MP, Jeremy Hunt, asking how the people should go about removing a government that is patently not doing what the people want. So I am still looking at legal methods. But I am also looking some years in the future. As the EU flexes its muscles, I would not rule out the possibility that we may be watching the last "free" government of the UK. All the powers are there in the Lisbon Treaty for the EU to rule direct. Relegating member states to the status of provinces and appointing a "native" governor. And at 61 years of age, I want to see my country free before I die.
  • The right wing press will characterize this as naive peaceful protesters being used by anarchists. They will do this because it suits them to cling on to the idea of a centrist consensus being a good thing. One can see why the Conservatives, particularly this brand, being a throwback to a much earlier era, would not have a clue about the concerns of the majority of people in this country, but the quiescence of the Labour party seems to suggest that they too, would settle for all arguments to be conducted on the middle ground. What this does is to ignore the changes that have taken place in this country over the past decades. We are a much less compliant and deferential society than ever before, and the generation of 15-25 years olds feel that they have been betrayed and that things will be worse if they do not stand up for themselves because mainstream politicians are not going to do that for them. When you put into this mix the obvious participation of the extreme right, who will certainly want to exploit unrest, the potential for violent protest is huge. What will mkae things much worse is the first fatality, as the police become politicized as well as newly 'tooled up' and innocent people are the victims of their zeal. I am not suggesting that there are no extreme left people also seeking to capitalize on the turmoil that we shall undoubtedly see iover the coming months, but they are not the causes of it either. For this we must look to a dangerously out of touch and socially exclusive club, which masquerades as a democratic government when it was not in fact elected.
  • KesterR
    "when the people fight back, the government and the "free" media (that is a joke in itself) slip into condemning mode. Suddenly all violence is wrong! It is not wrong when the State does it. Only when the people do it it seems." I believe this is not just an incidental fact, but really the 'civilized' social contract in which society is supposed to attribute a monopoly of the legitimate use of force to the State in exchange for commitments to act for the Common Good and uphold fundamental human and civil rights is a contract inherently un-enforcable from the people's side, because once we've given up our sense of a right to mutual self-defence using force if necessary, there is really nothing to stop the State from breaking its side of the deal, as shown, constantly for centuries or millenia even since the Fall into 'civilization' (for 'civilization', read urbanisation and centralisation and alienation of power and wealth away from the majority). I believe the people have a right to cut off tyrants' heads and storm Bastilles occasionally as necessary. Trashing Tory HQ is a relatively mild response to the coercion, hostility, and cruel cold indifference the Tories have shown repeatedly to the ordinary people. No one was seriously injured, it's just some broken glass and graffiti. Dropping a fire extinguisher off the roof is different -random potentially lethal violence is 'terror', not intelligently targeted. The riot police always use more force than the protesters, and that's considered normal, but that never gets mentioned when 'authorities' condemn rioters. On the ground it just feels like tit-for-tat reciprocal violence, both sides are politically motivated -the riot police are not politically neutral, a) that's impossible in principle because they're humans, b) they're obviously not in practice.
  • Well that is just obnoxious abuse. It shames you far more than it shames me, since anyone reading it will realise who the decent person is....(that would be the one NOT creating images of sodomite abuse perhaps). Then you have the lack of care to post your disgusting 'work' twice. So glad I'm not you.
  • oldnik007
    show me where the German protests were reported in the English press then...
  • t_keane
    Well I think I know what you're on about, however I need to check my understanding: Line 1: Who are the Con DEm parties? Line 3: Presumably New Labour?... Line 3 continued: My memory isn't the best by a long chalk, but amneisa?...I hope not. However what makes you think I voted Labour? I didn't, never have and didn't give you any reason to think I had. Final sentence: Your double negative final sentence still has me scratching my head a little but I suspect I know what you're saying. Interesting that your hope for the secret service to monitor the original commentator's movements is subsequently defended by a suggestion that I might follow parties who you claim oppose such action - not sure I follow your logic here, perhaps you could enlighten me?... You singularly fail to address the key point however that the public at large is being pillaged to repay debts run up by the greedy feckless bankers who, having got it so incredibly wrong still continue to pay themselves disgusting sums of taxpayers money whilst the parties you recommend seek to destroy public spending to make this possible. You think it's unreasonable for students to protest in the strongest possible terms when they are being asked to repay this grand theft and the bankers are getting away with what you or I would be imprisoned for?.....Thank Goodness they have the balls to get out on the streets and challenge this madness.
  • Not true at all. Labour's spending spree has created a trillion pound debt. Unless we are to go the way of Ireland and find no one willing to lend to us, we have to enter a new reality. The core feature of that will be, if you want something, pay for it. Now either get your hand in your pocket and pay, or leave now. The days of something for nothing have passed.
  • Seek help quickly. Your mind is in a state of delusional malfunction.
  • tamba
    Couldn't agree more.
  • andyfisk
    It was the same government aside from the Lib Dems that agreed to go into both countries. They supported it. They therefore are as responsible as the Labour government as are those of the public who supported it. As far as corporations go then it is clear that by your definition, corporations have too much power. They can manipulate and control what our elected officials do. This is unhealthy and is a reason why people now go to the companies to protest rather than to the government. There is a merry go round of politicians, and corporations looking after each other. Politicians sit on the board of corporations when they are out of office, and corporations take positions in parliament. There was the lobbygate scandal. Politicians are for hire, it is not an issue of left or right ideologue, it is a concern I hope to anyone who is a democrat. As for tax breaks, it is clear they exist for all the reasons given, but I would like to see figures that corporations pay half the tax revenue. Research is taking place into this now and it will be interesting to see what the results bring. But one example is Vodaphone. I happen to think the £6 billion was not the right figure. Yet it is clear something is not correct about their money paid. According to Vodafone's annual report 2010, it provisioned against £2.2 billion "in respect of the potential UK corporation tax exposure" at 31 March 2010. The question is why a company would provision against £2.2 billion when the HMRC ultimately charged them only £1.25 billion? The HMRC says the 'liability' was never more than £1.25 billion, but what about the penalty charges and interest. This I presume was dropped? For fiscal (financial) year 2010 Vodafone reported profit before taxation of £87 billion and in the same period 2009 it reported 4.2 billion. Yet it had a £56 million pound tax credit in 2010 and a £1.1 billion tax credit 2009. We all pay our taxes in proportion to what we earn. If they make money and they certainly do, then they should pay their tax accordingly. There are benefits for them being in a country like the UK and Europe because they will soon suffer if they were to pull out. They are not as yet quite as powerful as a nation.
  • scampy2
    Simon would obviously like to carry on cottaging ah la lord Mandy?
  • LeftyLeprechaun
    You really are a buffoon
  • scampy2
    Tony the phony Blair is gone Kerri.
  • Good day to you Mr Keane. On the matter of the incomplete sentence and spelling errors; just as you found trouble in replying to my post in the correct location, I have experienced difficulty in editing my posts this evening. I was well aware of at least some of the matters you refer to, but could not access the edit facility on some posts. I still can not do so. As to the extent of the national debt. My figure of £90,000 per person is derived from a discussion I heard on the Radio 4 programme 'More or Less' which sets out to debunk misuse and error in the statistics with which we are presented by government and corporate interests. The presenter of that programme last summer was discussing how great were the costs of the government's free running deficit (by which I mean their spending as it exceeds tax take) and their long term 'off the book' liabilities. The Labour Government promoted a figure from which was excluded a great deal of their liability. One area was PFI spending, through which a very large number of big and expensive building projects were undertaken. You must have noticed the numbers of new schools, hospitals, local health centres and other projects that went up under Labour's tenure. None of these were paid for and ALL of them are excluded from the debt figures. The other huge liability is in the unfunded pension entitlements of many public sector workers. Since the 1950s at least, most public sector contributory pensions have been run as a Ponzi scheme, in which the investment contributions of workers and employers were not paid into a fund, but were used up tp pay out those currently retired. This kind of scheme, which involves millions of workers, constitutes a HUGE credit scam and IS a LIABILITY which the tax payer will have to pick up. Thirdly, although the failure of banks by poor regulation and excessive risk taking was an outrageous matter, the final bill is very much smaller than the figures originally bandied about. The More or Less programme outlined the fact that much of the figure was in guarantees of liquidity that were never actually called on in the end. The government had technical liabilities in the event of further failure, but since the banks have by and large traded out of the crisis, they will not be called on. Furthermore, the government now owns the lions share of several now almost profitable banks which will be sold in due course at a handsome profit. These facts are the basis of my claim that the bank crisis is not the greatest or even a very large part of the financial pickle we are in.
  • guystev
    This is obviously a Government controlled psy-op and the students that attacked buildings and were causing havoc were probably Police provocateurs or paid Government patsies, a tell telling sign is that there were limited Police at the scene and the Police seemed to let the students riot, the provocateurs wore hoods to cover their faces. The Government want riots so that they can clamp down on civil liberties, best way to bring this corrupt system down is to stop paying taxes and bypass Government completely. Do our own thing; Government needs you to acquiesce to their tyranny.
  • You seem to have missed the fact that it was another government which committed billions and the lives of our troops to Iraq and Afghanistan. The current government was elected to power a mere six months ago. As for taxing corporations; it is one of the mantras of the deluded left that corporations do not pay tax. In reality they pay vast billions. They contribute about half the tax revenue the country gets. In addition, they provide jobs. Multintional companies can upsticks and leave any time they like, if they feel they are being taxed too much. here is an example. My middle son has been working on a large IT project to assist Cadbury to relocate to Switzerland. They did this because the tax regime there was better for them. If you over tax a multinational, they will go. Then what happens? 1. We get NO TAX AT ALL. 2. The business shuts down here and thousands become unemployed 3. The unemployed now cost the tax payer a fortune 4. The government loses PAYE tax from the now unemployed workers OK - do you get the picture now?
  • 360_degrees
    If you're an adult you're as mad as a hatter. Just read through your comments.. "you are a moron too... and probably a thief, Tory spook, zombified brainwashed accomplice, thieving masters, agent provocateur, a hyena, a vulture" etc etc etc There's a place called Africa where everyone conducts politics through your approach, and the result is stagnation and tyranny. Much as would happen to Britain if someone(s) with your outlook and mindset were to ever get their hands on the reins of power.
  • Ever noticed how whenever the public is being held to ransom by some vile strike or other in the vital services that keep the country running, you very often get some scowzer low life on the TV going on about his members rights?
  • My dear, governments are elected to make decisions and to run the country. We give them our vote and after a period of time, usually about five years, we get the chance to vote them out, or to re-elect them. Your use of the word, 'dictatorship' in this context is plain silly. Please think before committing yourself to publishing ridiculous ideas on the internet. You also appear to have used your own name, which is another mistake, if I may say so. I would edit that remark out if I were you, lest it come back to haunt you when some future employer googles your name before giving you an interview.
  • Well Michael, good luck with your plans, and I agree that the violence was an outrage, but I'd have to part company with you on the kicking in of heads. I don't see how doing violence in condemnation of violence can be justified in such a case.
  • I don't know your brother, but from what you say, you may be well advised to listen to his point of view. I am still, even after twelve hours reflection, shocked at you admission that you are a lecturer. How can it be, I ask myself that such an individual has attended a significant course of higher education, and even more shocking, is placed in a position of trust with young people?
  • Fool! The scum and riff raff who damaged property did not damage 'government property'. They damaged property owned by a property company and leased to the Conservative Party. The Conservative Party is a party made up of tens of thousands of members throughout the country. IT is not the government. The government is a group of politicians ELECTED by the people of this country. Perhaps you are upset that some sort of thieving, socialist, riff raff government of radical communists has not been elected. Get used to it. This country will never elect anything but a centre right government, because that is where the hearts and minds of the British people are.
  • This is no surprise. Why should the young pay for the mistakes of the financial sector? The system rewards incompetence and corruption and punishes the ordinary people who are getting increasingly disillusioned and angry.
  • You have the right to protest peacefully. I am happy that you exercised it.

    The people who created mayhem should be imprisoned; are you perhaps supporting them when you say, 'would the event have received this much coverage if it had ended peacefully? Would people have even cared?' Equivocation on thuggery is far from acceptable in my view. You are either with the thugs, or you are against them and in support of reasonable behaviour.

    You claim that the government is 'destroying the future of education'. Rubbish. They are simply saying that the government which collects all its money from the rest of us who work and pay the taxes, can not pay what it has been paying heretofore. Now, the people who receive the benefit of higher education will pay more themselves. That is not 'destroying the future of education' but making those who have it pay more towards the cost.

  • You're wrong on this as you are in most thngs. The west of Russia is part of Europe, as is Belorusa, Moldava and the Ukraine. They form East Europe along with a host of other nations, including Thracian Turkey. After WW2 much of Central Europe came under Soviet domination, which in turn was termed the Eastern bloc. Poland, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, etc did not move they remained, and still remain, in the centre of Europe, hence Central Europeans. The rest of your post is plain stupid.
  • t_keane
    It seems I can't reply to your most recent comment so I'll have to address it here, out of sequence. Now I can be a passionate old thing, especially when I see such grand injustice as that being meted out by politicians to society at large who are made to pay for the bankers' ghastly greed, self interest and wilful negligence, but I have tried to be measured with you Mr abcde. However given your descent in to mis-spelt invective, personal slight and unintelligible maths I have to ask, is 'abcde' how you spell 'feckwit'? (I've gone for the Irish spelling in the hope it might duck beneath the censor's radar). To quote: "You're either or a fool old bean". Either a what? Either a commentator who reviews his spelling before posting perhaps? "The bank collapse cost every person in the land £1000. That is dreadful, I admit... The interest payments on Labour's debt is £3,000 per year for every person in the land" Mervyn King suggested that the deficit is over £1trillion, caused by the bank bailout and subsequent stimulus to avoid a depression. That's over £16,000 for every person in the land, caused by the bankers grand theft and Labour's preference to avoid meltdown as a result! You wonder why students are out on the streets?! I'm only pleased there is one section of our society that hasn't been hypnotised by what they see on TV every day and is prepared to stand up against massive injustice. You can continue blaming Labour if you like, and their ultra-low regulatory approach is no doubt a significant part of the reason for the collapse. Should you wish to stick to this logic however, and there's something in it per se, you should also recognise that they were following Free Market Capitalist Tory economic policy to the letter - "Markets know best!!" However, as far as I know there was no missive from Labour to the banks to bring the house down, it was greedy, self-interested, capitalist theives in the City who 'gambled away the family silver', not Labour. To try and suggest, as your last sentence threatens to do (but sadly falls just short) that Labour have somehow caused 3 times the problems as the bankers completely ignores the correct maths and the fact that the banks caused the problem to which Labour reacted (As I said earlier btw I have no truck in defending Labour, I've never voted for them). I'm not going to respond again by the way, it's too hard trying to follow your twisted logic, incorrect spellings and obfuscation, but I see I'm not alone. I just wonder whether I've fallen for a classic diversion tactic? Could you be the Devil's Personal Advocate?
  • t_keane
    Whoever threw that fire extinguisher from the building should be prosecuted with attempted murder. However I have seen no evidence to suggest who it was. Do you know it was a student? I'm no conspiracy theorist and have no evidence to suggest it was a student or anyone else for that matter, but until you do know who it was it would be wise to talk in the third person. On a wider level, unsurprisingly this incident and the window smashing dominates the coverage. Media obsessed by a cheap thrill over substance every day of every week. It's classic propaganda model stuff (Noam Chomsky). Don't ever deal with the substance, just the imagery, and certainly don't challenge the government slashing and burning the public services.
  • robhardy
    Nobody burnt a building, some students lit a small bonfire in the courtyard. The fire extinguisher incident was stupid and criminally reckless but probably not malicious. Fortunately no harm was done and overall the demonstration was successful both for the students and the police. No one suffered more than minor injuries and a little property damage was done, no big deal.
  • you are a moron too... and probably a thief, like the ones you prosternate to, your gods... the worshippers of money, and Lucifer...
  • FrankPoster
    Whilst I never condone violence I can understand what drives other people to violence. When people become so frustrated at unfair treatment and feel they have no other recourse, especially after seeing that huge and peaceful protests in 2003 against the Iraq invasion made absolutely no difference and which then had an appalling outcome. So people get the message that if they riot a la Poll Tax then there is a greater chance that their voices might be heard but if they stay calm there is zero chance. Whether we like it or not, that is the situation that the politicians and so-called democracy in this country have created and yesterday is one of those consequences.
  • DorothyErskine67
    Well, yes, the Independent might not wish to support the view that anyone ought to be shot. It's taking violent protest further than the rioters did.
  • Bob_T
    Lets face it if you are a young person today, growing up in the UK, it must be very frustrating. I left school in 1971, couldn't afford to go to University, no chance of me getting into debt, so got a job, studied part time, bought a house aged 20. Lived my life without major debts and coped well. Now I would be made to stay at school, go to Uni, get a huge debt, then live with my parents or in a rented flat until age 30 before I could buy a house. That's assuming I could find a graduate level job.

    The concept of having huge debt for young people has been actively marketed to them. The banks along with the other corporates run the country. The banks and financial companies do as they like. Ordinary people have absolutely no say in how the country is run. Despite the financial meltdown the people who caused the mess still have huge bonuses being paid to them.

    So let me ask you people of the UK are you surprised that direct action has been taken, no other type of action works in the UK. Complaints don't work, select committees make lots of noise but have no teeth, regulators like the FDA are "revolving doors" for the industry they regulate. Seeing your MP is useless as they are constantly lobbied by the corporates. Democracy in the UK is dead.

    That is why you see violence on the streets.
  • mrchatman
    "Some students are violent therefore their claims are illegimimate" is a bit of a short argument. "The violent students are not now going to have three years of a cheap good time at uni" sounds quite as ludicrous. The real question is: "is higher education a collective and national investment for the future or is it an individual investment in an individualistic society?" In the second option, one will not complain when Britain is short of higher skills and cannot face the ingeneering or research competition with Germany, Japan or (soon) China! Some brain resources will not be exploited in UK because families can't afford the fees. Up to you guies. I already live abroad where public service still means something.
  • Bob_T
    Tut tut, you are telling porkies.... New estimates suggest the government's recent bailout of RBS and Lloyds TSB will cost the tax payer up to £1.5 trillion. Don't think the interest on national debt comes close.The cost of National debt is the interest the government has to pay on the bonds and gilts it sells. In the first six months of 2010, the debt interest payments were £21.6bn, suggesting an annual cost of around £43bn (3% of GDP)
  • The people to convict of treason are the likes of you and those who drool at the banks, corporations, and other symbols of power that have plundered this country's empire and continue in their nefarious theft of its resources...
  • liar, not that easy... there are a lot of border line cases who will not benefit... like the bankers, the nasty things are always buried in the small print...
  • VinceinBrighton
    Well Done.Their point was made and it IS just the beginning. Nobody would have listened to a peaceful protest! Next I think it is high time for a large protest on behalf of people with Disabilities and health problems who are being demonised by this Tory minority regime. 5 million on out of work benefits and just 450,000 jobs available....and NO workable job creation schemes. I hope that the students will be their to support us. Nick Clegg ; what will it take for you to dessert this coalition switch sides and call for a new election?
  • andyfisk
    I would rather money be gathered from corporations in tax before cuts be made. Add to that the war in Iraq which Whitehall claimed as a cost of 0ver £9 billion. And given the bill for Afghanistan and Iraq was £4.5 BIllion the last financial year, I would suspect the amount of the Iraq invasion was more that that. The Afghanistan invasion as of July 2009 was £12 Billion. There is a lot of money out there and it is corrupt and unprincipled decisions that have cost us a fortune and led us to this situation. As for the 'scum', I put it to you that the very same papers that were acting so righteously over this event, were the very same papers who led the charge into the horrendous campaign that massacred a people in Iraq. The newspapers could easily put a broken window and a few objects thrown into perspective. But a mixture of sensationalism and political stance led them to be so morally and hypocritically outraged. For this reason though it is up to the president, he could have been a bit calmer about what happened.
  • cloakanddagger
    So the government at the time should not have responded to the Poll tax riots or to the Suffragettes? Sometimes "minority" demonstrations represent a large undercurrent of support from a sizable majority. Although in theory I get what you are saying. I think a lot of people have no problem with the country being sorted out: but the debt we have I imagine is a lot due to private sector debt not just due to the public sector and soon the whole country is going to have to have a reality check then we are going to see something in this country....
  • murdochlies
    Your talking bollocks. We have never had a socialist government. It just the usual excuse of capitalist mugs to blame the failings of the crooked system on none existant socialism system. Because the media tell that. Junk, utter junk and you cannot get enough of it.
  • of course you would be very pleased with someone who glorifies you, and scratches your back, while you are thieving the plebs...
  • wolfmeister
    ah 'lefties' and 'anarchists' yes, i see, well i'm glad you explained what happens in London.. to a Londoner, cheers for that.
  • OW BELIEVE ME ,, i would rather be in a mud hut ,than a 6 bedroomed house ,to much to clean, not everyones cup of tea ... but by the looks of things you love money and its riches ,, MONEY is the root to all evil, and it breaks people down to feeling of misrey, it has done nothing but make millions of people depressed!!!, so who really needs to grow up,, at least my eyes are wide open ,.
    The goverment how ever are the biggest liers in the world ,, and that is all they do ,, they dont know how to tell the truth!!! . they controll everything and that includes your money ,, and next it will be you .
  • why is it ,, that when people do something to they are classed as spotty or the "ANTICHRIST" or dirty low lifes,, ???? ,, SHAME on thoughs who follow the LIES and dictatorship of the goverment!!!! ,, yous need to get your head out of the clouds and stop being goody two shoes with a weathy wallet, time you opened your eyes.. As for the demonstraters ,,well done to all ,, it is time to get the human race back to how it should be ,, EVERYTHING should be FREE,, and make money nonexcitant. would to love to see that happen.. so for the non believers out there wake up !!! ,,coz things are on a roll , and this wont be the last..
  • chazzacant
    I witnessed some of the action at Millbank Towers yesterday. First, I feel very sorry for the police who were in the front line. I saw no evidence that they were deliberately attacked, but the person who threw the fire extinguisher ? and those who threw sticks in the direction of the police and or the windows were, at best, reckless in their disregard of possible injury to the police and other demonstrators. The police I saw behaved with admirable restraint under severe provocation. Clearly the police were unprepared for the assault on Millbank Towers, but, with its large open courtyard and glass walls, Millbank Towers is a singularly difficult complex to defend, and a highly unsuitable location for an office that is likely to be the focus of repeated attacks. Second, any very large protest ? and especially one as badly organised as this (too many people crowded into too small a marshalling area and too short a route) ? especially when it is against cuts in public services ? was bound to attract some opportunists and window smashers. But, compared with about 50,000 on the march, there were only about 1,000 people on the concourse at Millwall Towers, and most of them were spectators. Nevertheless, it was surprising how many of them rushed toward the police when they appeared to retreat, but their protest was non-violent as they sat down quietly in front of the police outside the building. Many students are clearly very angry at what they see as an assault on their futures, but the vast majority of them behaved entirely peacefully while attempting to make their protest heard. At the core of their protest is their objection to a ?reform? that will complete the transformation of higher education from a public good to a private benefit. They deserve our support.
  • Violence happens also when people get provoked, can you guarantee that there was no coalition agent provocateurs to stir the students too?
  • I am a mathematician, worked in industry, and have had a lot of experience dealing with people from all kinds of backgrounds and cultures, up to (since you worship money so), billionaires businessmen...
    so I could express first hand the flaws in the given systems, and tell you what that makes me better qualified than any in that treacherous coalition on what could work or not to lift a country into proper working condition...
    What they are currently doing is criminal, as they are ruining the country, and I used to give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they were not yet well bedded in their tenures, but in fact I believe now UK Plc is being dismantled on purpose to be sold to the best bidder, and it started as far back as with the fall of the empire, suddenly quickening with Margaret Thatcher, but at least she had more decency than these nasty Boys...

    Good luck in your Mirage in Hell...
  • I know the likes of you who feel super superior in their smugness, my brother is like that and I consider him a fool too, as he is wasting his life following mirages... the mirages of a manufactured reality that stinks like a rotten sore, but when you are brainwashed, anything looks rosy that you are programmed to see... carry on On the Waste Road to Perdition, sorry soul...
  • analiensaturn
    The ones making the cuts are the very same ones who fiddled us and robbed us with their banker friends who finance them into power.
  • analiensaturn
    I can't accept that the police would not consider the young and protesting as a volatile mix.
  • 360_degrees
    NABIL is either a teen, or mentally ill. I still suspect its the former, although he could be both.
  • or like what happened at G20 with the police and Ian Tomlinson
  • wink wink, you defend the order then...
  • and you are brainwashed fodder to your masters
  • spook
  • you are out of control in your bile towards an imaginary enemy... can't you see you are manipulated...
  • cornishclio
    I agree that returning to the top 10% or 15% based on ability would be the ideal answer and I also think that this would be realistic if done through taxation. 40% of school leavers going on to get degrees though is unaffordable through taxation and this is where we are now. That is the main reason that I am cross that other means of educating and employing school leavers seem to have been ignored over the last decade or so. Students who do not go to university are left to feel they have failed and there is a lack of opportunity for them. Sadly I think we have gone too far down the wrong path for this.
  • cornishclio
    No, I do not believe in your so called "string em up" mentality. I do believe however in not condoning violence and deliberate destructiveness. How tolerant would you be if that fire extinguisher had come down on one of your children?
  • He actually claimed to be a 'lecturer.' Personally, I doubt that.
  • 360_degrees

    Oh eh, an "operative phrase" do tell us more, what's about to happen now?
    You sad fantasist.
  • 360_degrees
    And before the scousers become something more than a bunch of miserable whining old Leftist gits, Hell will freeze over.
  • 360_degrees
    Students are such dross these days. You're a total idiot. Don't ever expect to get a job sonny. You're unemployable.
  • 'Police were clearly unprepared for the planned attack.' and 'The ferocity of the protest ended the high hopes of a new era of consensus politics...' Only once I think in this entire article is it mentioned that it was not all the students, and even then it's only half way through. This article is exactly what I feared would happen, the media overshadowing a peaceful protest, and in many respects, a plea to the government for reason with a story of how all students are violent. I am utterly ashamed by what happened and by how the media have chosen to spin this, I would have thought the media would have wanted to promote a good cause, instead they choose to take dirty underhanded view of what happened.
  • 360_degrees

    As I said, miners who dropped a concrete block off a bridge as part of a similar stunt received a sentence of life for murder. If these students had hit a policeman with that fire extinguisher they would have received the same sentence. If they are caught it will be a charge of attempted murder.

    There comes a point where the law says that an individual's behaviour was so reckless that a defence that they didn't actually intend to kill someone is no longer sustainable. Dropping a fire extinguisher on someone's head from the top of a building is a case in point.


  • 9009MIKE9009
    No Big Deal, I hope they catch the person who threw the extinguisher, I hope he/she gets 15 years for attempted murder, I hope his/her mother and father agree with you, that it is no big deal. I also believe that whilst serving the time they will be able to study completely free of charge. Causing damage and destruction in an attempt to get what you want is a childish response, if any of these students had studied economics perhaps they would understand that when you have had so many years of give everyone who asks whatever they ask for politics then you eventually run out of money, you are now seeing what happens in the real world when there is no one to give you what you want just because you want it. Get a job and earn some money and pay for your further education. I hear you can now get a degree in Star Treck languages, nice !
  • ... I got it now, you are a minion of the elite, that is why you are so darned angry... wow... well, all good things get rattled some day...
  • hey why the adrenalin, you seem to have a lot of vested interest in this, humiliated maybe, how dare they, huh... i guess you hate those plebs don't you, and wish to put them in their place... well maybe you will have to live with it... roar as much as you like... you are as nasty as the policies and the people you cheer-lead... get an education, and learn that civilisations fall from the inequities befalling people from unjust rulers... it took longer before, only now, in this fast food age, things are much quicker, so be careful what you say, it might haunt you...
  • Totally predictable as measures that went against Con and Lib manifestos were announced, almost with a sense of glee, on a weekly basis. It was as though the Condem coalition was trying to dismantle the welfare state in record time to show the US who can do rightwing best. That this took the government and police by surprise - if that was in fact the case - shows how out of touch they are with the voters. Society is now completely divided along the lines of the haves and the have-not. Cameron and Clegg are heading for a disaster unprecendented in recent British history, and they still don´t know it. The line has been drawn and polarisation is just starting to take place. Yes, there will be violence and opportunists but what did they expect? Many of us could see it coming a mile away. If the violence grows, which I'm sure it will, the government will only have itself to blame. Everone can assure themselves that harsh and repressive measures are already on the drawing board. Revolution is literally around the corner. The people have had enough. The bankers want more.
  • ... power always says that... mr tory spokesman...
  • UncleAxel
    'Years of socialist governments in the UK' what do you mean abcdef? Blair, Brown, Thatcher and Major were all socialists? 'Socialist tit'? Really get a grip. I actually agree that students shouldn't expect entirely 'free' education, and talk of a 'universal right' is meaningless, but your ranting style does the cause no good at all, and I suspect you'd be burning and throwing missiles given half the chance. Also it's Central Europeans who have come here in the millions, but clearly facts aren't your strong point.
  • That is a Free Mason operative phrase as I know...
  • robhardy
    "clear intention of murder" You know that do you? But then you probably "knew" the Iraqi's could attack with weapons of mass destruction on 45 minute warning. I suggest to you it was a rash and reckless act brought on my the adrenaline and excitement of the moment, culpable indeed but in the same order of crime as speeding near a primary school or an old peoples home.
  • Lecturer? OMG. I thought you were a schoolboy - thirteen or fourteen at most, I thought, judging by your puerile contributions.
  • drama queen, and agent provocateur
  • ROFLMAO You are a VERY silly boy Nabil. Nevertheless, I did have a good laugh - not with you, but at you - mainly because you have no insight into your condition of ignorance and stupidity.
  • another agent provocateur comment...
  • are you an agent provocateur, a hyena, a vulture, a spook or a thieving Tory... This is an honest question...
  • This is just left wing bullshit. The cost of saving the banks is one third of the annual interest payment on the ever growing national debt. Labour did far worse damage to the people of this country than any bankers did, bad as they were. However, bankers paid £6bn last year as tax on their bonuses.
  • Tory spook, and zombified brainwashed accomplice to your thieving masters...
  • Go away Tory spook...
  • ... not convinced, which school / college - I was a lecturer... and how come your facebook page is non-existent?
  • You're either or a fool old bean. I have given the facts elsewhere, but I will repeat them for you (out of charity). The bank collapse cost every person in the land £1000. That is dreadful, I admit. The interest payments on Labour's debt is £3,000 per year for every person in the land EACH AND EVERY YEAR FOR EVER UNTIL WE PAY IT OFF. Now - mwhich is the biggest ripoff old chap -eh?
  • what world, you live in a society, or in the jungle... you seem to be happy ripping other people off... vulture, hyena? what are you?
  • ... maybe you are a thug without realising it... how much money do you make from others' misery, tell me?...
  • as I said keep on being a zombie, it suits you very well, after all... you hear and cannot listen...
  • I raised three sons. Two of them are mechanical engineers, one for BAE SYstems and one for Glaxo Smith Klien. The other is a technology consultant for a multinational consultancy company working all over the world. He is twenty-five years old and earns £40k. They do very well thanks very much.
  • You don't recognise that YOU are the totalitarian one. WHO ELECTED YOU to smash the place up, you spoiled brat!
  • Squidsin
    As a matter of fact, my solution to the problem (which I think is fairer than making university available only to a wealthy elite) would be to return to the old system of only the top 15% of school leavers going to university, but that education would be free. Selection would be based on academic ability not wealth. I realise this would lead to the closing of a number of lesser universities and so called 'mickey mouse degrees' (and ideally I'd like higher education to be free and available to everyone but I am trying to be realistic here) but there are going to be casualties in this however it happens, and they would have the option of going private. Also, this would solve the problem of degrees being devalued, which is happening now. In answer to your other question, yes I think it's perfectly fair that degrees should be paid for through taxation - society needs highly skilled people as well as low paid people, and in order for our economy to prosper, so does it! The only other solution is to give the skilled jobs to immigrant graduates, and I doubt that idea would go down well with the electorate.
  • You seem to have missed the fact that there are about twenty million voters in this country. Furthermore there were nothing like a million people in that demonstration, even though it was large. I was totally against that war, but I recognised that the government was ELECTED. Government can not and should not respond to the protests of minorities.
  • awbergh
    "So ended an era of popular agitation", writes Francis Sheppard in his 'London a History' (from 1998) about another popular insurrection. Namely the one in the revolutionary year of 1848 when the Charterists were quelled by a formidable posse of policemen, even backed by troops. Just to assist the police some 85.000 special constables were enrolled for the occasion. So, no need for Cameron to blush today. His people in the London Tory HQ live in the 19th century anyhow.
  • I think they will stand up, but against YOU. I expect if you put your 'revolution' into practice, they will put you in jail.
  • Absolutely - anarchists and seditious dogs.
  • Well said Michael. A lad to be proud of.
  • cornishclio
    I understand your point and although my own girls have gone through university in recent years my niece and nephew are still at school and I know my sister is now seriously considering not encouraging them understandably simply because of the scale of the debt. I am going to be quite contraversial now and I actually do work in a university but I feel many school leavers would benefit from a year or two in the workplace before university to give themselves time to consider what direction they want to go in. The government needs to come up with alternatives like sponsoring the old day release scheme where companies employ youngsters and send them to further education college one day a week or block release. My husband and I both did that from A levels and it is truly beneficial. You are right an educated workforce is in the countries' interest but it is unaffordable with so many going to university now. Even putting the fees up and limiting places has not deterred students from applying. We need to recognise that a satisfying and rewarding career should not necessarily need a degree but this needs much more input from private business than now. They are also abdicating their responsibilities in not being prepared to invest in training their staff.
  • bishbashbong
    You are right about the potential for the Government to stop pensions etc. As you have noticed the Government are ?talking? about funnelling all income through the Tax Office. When the Government are ?talking? they are actually putting the feelers out and gauging the public reaction. I?m probably wrong but I didn?t get the impression of anything other than the usual ?same old Tory? moaners when this came out in the media, there was no real fuss. This idea is fully set out and ready and waiting to be ?rushed? through to help the Government save ?us? from tax avoiders. It?s also part of a much bigger agenda but that?s for another time. Thing is... this is how the Government put the people in fear, if they have control over your income then they have control over you... do as your told or starve. People are kept in fear of going to court or jail for not doing as they?re are told. This is the boundary that is not being crossed... and unfortunately a critical mass of people will have to cross it soon and stop compliance. Stop Council Tax payments, stop paying utility bills, withhold mortgage repayments, park where you like and don?t pay for a ticket, stop voting and whatever else. If everyone thought about it then they should realise there is nothing to fear, if many people did it together... as soon as the word got out everyone will be doing it. It would take all of a week. Your MP won?t help you because there are many, many people who have already tried it, they have gone the legal route too and every attempt has ended up in the long grass. I share your view that this is the last government, I believe that our de facto Coalition government will inflict mayhem on the country and leave a problem that only the EU Police State could possibly solve. I think in 5 or 6 years time this world will dramatically change and it will not compare with life today, but we still have the time to decide whether it be good or very, very bad. You?ll see it.
  • I take it that your illiterate contribution refers to the failure of some banks, necessitating state support. What is little known is that this shocking failure cost each and every Briton the sum of £1000. Compare that to the £3,000 spent per person to cover interest on Labour's debts. THE BANKS COST ONLY ONE THIRD OF WHAT WE PAY EACH YEAR IN INTEREST PAYMENTS ON THE NATIONAL DEBT.
  • Squidsin
    I'd have been proud of mine if they'd joined the protest (although not the violence). Unlikely as they are toddlers - so they tend to be into inarticulate expressions of anger, yes! And your comment about vandalism is both sanctimonious and based on no evidence whatsoever. Plenty of people do silly things as kids and go on to lead as blameless an adult life as anyone else. Or are you of the 'string em up' mentality that doesn't believe in redemption?
  • cornishclio
    I think anyone with eyes in their head and half a brain realise the vast majority of the protesters were not looking for trouble and simply trying to make their point that they disagree with the fees for their university education being effectively passed from taxpayers to themselves. I certainly feel sympathy but I cannot see a viable alternative beyond closing down a lot of universities and returning to only 5-10% of the school leavers going to university. Do you not think it is fair that the person who gains financially from getting a degree should pay rather than his low paid neighbour with no degree?
  • cornishclio
    Only 6% of that generation went to university. Most of the rest of us did not. Therein lays the problem.
  • cornishclio
    If the student is the person who gains the most from their qualification should this not be the case? Is it fair that someone who does not have a degree and earns a low wage subsidises a university education for a future high earner? Alternatively find a job where the company will sponsor you to get a qualification. For the government to continue supporting so many students at university something else has to be cut even further.
  • 9009MIKE9009
    I see, that makes killing people OK then ? Burning buildings with people working in them is OK, Because people have done bad things its OK to do bad things, a little childish don't you think. The I want if free and I want it now brigade, you must be part of the leadership.
  • being a bankster who robs billions is ridiculous...
  • cornishclio
    Is that how you have got anything in the past? If you gave your parents enough grief they gave in to you? No wonder many people feel parenting skills are a thing of the past.
  • wolfmeister
    well it's official THE WAR IN ON! hopefully we'll now see the british grow a backbone! it's about time the british stood up. and yes it's quite possible the plan was to allow the protestors to trash the place for PR purposes. But then again, living so close as i do to Tory HQ, i can tell you there arent any police around this area. You ony see them flying past in cars with thier sirens wailing at shift changover time. if you want to find the police in this area, just go down to Sainsburys nr tachbrook street in Victoria, they are always there buying cakes and crisps and sandwiches (their choice of diet is truly appaling btw), with their vans parked outside. I mean seriosuly, sainsbury's victoria must be the safest place in britain. I kid you not. They are always there.
  • cornishclio
    Yes, I wondered about that too. Does not say much for their iq. I suppose Millbank towers is more prominent than lib dem headquarters.
  • 9009MIKE9009
    You are missing the point, starting the fire was ridiculous. Thugs on the march was ridiculous, throwing a fire extinguisher off the building was ridiculous. Wanting everything for free is ridiculous.
  • cornishclio
    So why were there still millions on benefits when the economy was booming in 2007? Are they all disabled?
  • cornishclio
    The poor and vulnerable who were throwing fire extinguishers off the top of buildings yesterday you mean?
  • Most people in this country smell a lefty rat when people start talking about 'collectivism'. It may have escaped your notice (obviously) but 'collectivism' has a bad name even in Russia, nowadays. Since Stalin murdered millions in the name of 'collectivism' the Russians now disavow it pretty strongly.

    Also, student spending is only an investment, if the country can get something back from it. In some cases, funding students is an excellent investment. We need investment in training doctors, nurses, teachers, engineers, biologists, physicists and some other disciplines. Arts courses (excepting those needed to train teachers for cultural transmission) are virtually useless as investment prospects. So, my answer would be that the country might subsidise fees for some courses, but should charge full wack for others.

    By the way, perhaps you missed the fact that even now, the government injects huge subsidy to higher education. Students are only being asked to fund a part of the cost of their education.
  • FURIONSTORMRAGE
    I don't condone violence but the simple fact is that peaceful protests dont have any effect. A bit of a ruck will get you 10 times the publicity for your cause and show the government that you are prepared to put yourself at risk to make your point. It's the sad result of having a government that is arrogant and behaves like a bully boy dictatorship and that does what it wants without any respect for the people it governs. If you really want to kick the government in the teeth without protesting or resorting to violence you could always join the BNP. Not to everyones liking I know but that lot that are in at the moment are not too popular are they !
  • cornishclio
    Actually I don't despise him and I am not a lib dem voter. I honestly thought that he would form a coalition with labour, whose policies I disagree with entirely. He has faced reality and been very brave. Anyone who thought they could honour their pledge on not raising fees has obviously not been near a university recently or lives in some non-existent world where everything is free and nobody ever has settle their debts.
  • joshh1
    I was there to witness the disruption outside Millbank start at around 13:00, and the police response was laughable. As soon as the thugs started the fire, all that was required was to put the fire out and tell people to move on from the site. Standing back and waiting over two hours until they intervened was plain ridiculous.
  • egbutnobacon
    The war is on? No, it isn't. A bunch of lefties and anarchists smash up buildings, which happens every time there is a march in London. Par for the course I'm afraid old chap.
  • 9009MIKE9009
    I would guess when they find the person who attempted to murder people by dropping a fire extinguisher on them it will turn out to be a student, and i would also guess that the clown in the picture above kicking the window in, is a student. I think we should consider removing any assistance with further education, if they want to swan around causing damage and trying to kill people, let them do it with their own money.
  • I'm in my final year of Sixth Form, and although the march was a good idea, the violence was pointless, stupid, and dangerous. The police are just trying to do their jobs. Anyone who condoned it or thought it was great/fun should have their head kicked in, then asked if they've re-assessed their opinions.
  • Morry2
    The police responce (or lack of responce) will do one thing, it will strengthen the police when they argue against cuts, as they already have done. Home Secretary, if you cut our numbers how will we control of these protests, just look at what happened to your offices! This line has already been made clear and the police have now had a chance to make sure it is underlined by broken windows etc - how clever of them, they won't be facing the massive cuts to their services that every else will and they didn't even need to go on strike to win the argument, they just had to make sure that they didn't know something like this might happen. When ever I have been on protests (even the smallest with a few hundred people) the police have alwasy been there mob handed but not today, when it benefits them to allow a bit of anarchy.
  • Any chance of being honest here and not blaming the students for bringing the violence to the streets, when it was clearly not them, but the anarchists who were bringing the violence? Only a dream, I know, but it'd be nice to see the media being honest for a change.
  • On the contrary; I am very pleased with him and so are millions of others. The Lib Dems have finally quit their sandal wearing left wing stupidity and come into the real world. In that world, running a £175 billion government spending deficit and paying £3,000 in debt interest payments for every man woman and child in the country is not acceptable policy. Are you bleaters aware that the debt we all pay interest on as taxpayers amounts to £90,000 for every person in the country? Thank Labour for that and bite the bullet. The days when unmarried teenaged mothers could expect a free house and an income courtesy of the workers in this country are over, and I am VERY pleased about that. Furthermore, it is utterly bizarre that it has become controversial that a government is thought brutal for saying, 'Sorry, if you can't pay the bill for living in Westminster or many another expensive borough, then you must move out and find somewhere cheaper.'
  • 360_degrees

    "EVERYTHING should be FREE,, and make money nonexcitant. would to love to see that happen.."

    And if it was youäd rather like that big 6 bedroom house of the hill with a pool (oh that and a year's supply of acne cream, eh!). The problem is so would many others. So how are you going to decide? Oh hang on I think I get it, it's Oct 1917 you're hankering afterand as such members of The Party get the goodies, while others get the chop. And 70 years of stagnation, misery and waste later the Berlin Wall finally comes down and you're forced to face reality.

    Try growing up.
  • What else is the BBC and the quality press but the mass media? Your remarks make no sense. I suspect you may be drunk.
  • 9009MIKE9009
    Wow ! I trust you have booked into the funny farm on the way home. Everything should be Free ! learning to spell was free, but you seem to have failed to claim.
  • Bob_T
    I never trust people who write under a false name. Society works because people perceive they are being treated in a just fashion. Just like you protest against the idle (as I do) others protest against unfairness. Things that polarise society inevitable end in conflict. Making poor people pay for the rich (e.g. bankers) is bound to lead to friction. Currently the corporates are doing as they wish at the expense of the populous. The big companies think it is fine not to pay their taxes yet the poor get poorer. Just remember your brave words about people who live on council estates when they are looking for justice. It is an insult to the hard working people who live on council estates that rich bankers fail in business and ask the less fortunate to bail them out.
  • Face the facts Martje, old bean; the left has entirely been discredited, from the Soviet Union, to China, to the madness of North Korea, or even in our own diluted versions of Socialist Worker and the Labour Party. None of these achieved anything but misery, central control and the removal of freedom. I should know, I believed in it, hook line and sinker as a young man, but then, I knew no better. If you want to stay closer to home, just look at the results of a thirteen year misrule by the Blair and Brownites. What did it achieve? - a vast asset price bubble in housing that betrayed the young who will NEVER be able to afford to buy property - a buy to let bonanza that will funnel the financial resources of the young into the greedy pockets of landlords who bought entire property portfolios on tick. - unregulated banks (a tool in Labour's economic miracle based on massive personal credit) collapsed and had to be bailed out by the hard-working tax payer. - a massive deficit of £175,000,000,000 a year in government spending and income. - record debt interest payments by the government requiring an annual payment of £3,000 for every man woman and child in the UK. - tens of thousands of unemployable graduates. - thousands of work-shy wretches pimping off the tax payer. - the doubling in four years of money paid by hard working tax payers to support people living in expensive property that the aforementioned tax payers could never afford themselves. I could go on Martje, but I think you'll get the idea why the term 'lefty' might be used as an insult. All one need do is open ones eyes to see the reason old fruit.
  • wolfmeister
    you're a bloody simpleton, i hope to god you arent raising children.
  • 360_degrees
    The Met's most woeful hour.. This is the most incompetent police operation I can ever recall. -Who let a student march of 50,000 protesting against government policy route past Conservative Central Office? -Who having made that error totally failed to protect said Office? -Who failed to get reinforecements to Central Office once the danger was apparent? (haven't the Met heard of helicopters?). It's only by the grace of god there weren't fatalities yesterday. Some students threw a fire extingusiher off the roof aimed at police lines with the clear intention of murder. When some coal miners carried out a similar stunt in the 1984 miners strike they killed a taxi driver and got life as a result. Spotty students with big ideas might like to dwell on that. Murdering people is not a game, and political protest is no defence. As for the police commander in charge of this pitiful display of incompetence he should be dismissed from the force. Utterly Farcical.
  • I have addressed the issues throughout this forum.
  • agent0060
    Drop the obfuscation. Address the issues.
  • Since you ask Dolores,my dear, I think it not before time that there was a new 'Treason Act' and another against sedition. People here are not simply recommending people vote out political parties and oppose particular policies in a lawful way, they are actually recommending violent revolution and riot. Sedition ought to be a crime, I think. It probably is, but I haven't heard of any cases lately.
  • No you see this is the response of all anti-democratic scum. The message you give is this: 'We lost the election and we don't like that fact. therefore we will riot and destroy to get our way.' That's what you are saying and that is the response of every vile terrorist group and anarchist on the planet. You don't like democracy and refuse to accept electoral defeat. If you don't like what government does, then vote against them and persuade others to do so. Your way is criminal. You should be in jail, and I hope you will be soon you vile fellow.
  • bishbashbong
    It's actually a crime... called Promissory Estoppel.
  • bishbashbong
    The Poll Tax wasn't abolished, it was just tweeked a bit and rebranded Council Tax.
  • conan_drum
    Mr Clegg replied: "I have been entirely open about the fact that we have not been able to deliver the policy that we held in opposition." What you forget Mr C is that it was that promise got you elected. Your desire to hold office and compromise your policies is why people dispise you.
  • road2zion
    Yeah thats whats need to be done. The Conservatives are so ignorant of the populations views and see them as naive because we have not lived a life with a misguided arogance towards the majority. If we have to smash the place to the ground before they realise they are being tottaly totalitarian then so be it. Hold a referendum on the matter instead of using your power to be an elected dictator
  • ffoulkesayke
    I was referring to mass media news,,,,sorry to let you down but I do read quality papers and I do watch News Night but not reality shows,,, I was tyring to point out too many people are having real news not given to them,,,,probably at HMG's orders
  • DorothyErskine67
    replying to abcdef. Did I mention chauvinist piggery? I was just complaining about the assumption made about a single figure spotted among the rioters. How do we know that any of the people demonstrating were students? Because reporters said so? Were there no parents demonstrating? or teachers? And the rioters - were they students, or just some people who latched on to an opportunity to make trouble? I agree about the vocational courses, to a point, but it would mean only students with rich parents could study the things like history and politics and economics and English Literature. We're in enough trouble without perpetuating that particular social division.
  • bishbashbong
    "We have the right to injure a few policeman..." You stupid fu**er... you have no right what so ever. Committing violence is just playing into their hands... the Goverment want more of it... that's how they can introduce new laws and enforce population control.
  • That answer tells me that you sir, are stupid.
  • Most rich people are not the inheritors of wealth. It is an insult to the mass of hard working well off people to suggest that they are. I have sympathy with the stupid, but not the idle and feckless. I hope you are not suggesting that the stupid must be rewarded as well as the intelligent and industrious. As for the villainously idle who inhabit council estates from one end of this country to the other - the days when they could sit at home being paid for nothing are over. They should be required to do work for their benefits. How far has this country sunk into welfareitis that it can be thought controversial to object to people being given money for no work?
  • If you don't want a police state, I'd recommend the Con DEm parties, because it was they who opposed Labours spy state in the face of screams of protest from New Liebour control freaks. Do you have amnesia? There never was so much erosion of civil liberties before the appalling slide after 1997.
  • bishbashbong
    ouch!
  • That would be the coalition of parties which received the lion's share of the public vote, I suppose? Also, which attacks on the poor and vulnerable? In the context of this discussion, students from poor back grounds are exempts from fees. Next?
  • bishbashbong
    "...but the majority of people are in favour of the public sector cuts." Oh?
  • Dolores1
    Just like Stalin's men? Call in the middle of the night? I far as I am aware desent is lawful, or would you like my IP address because I don't do FEAR Dolores
  • You'd rather the country continued getting into massive debt and that the NUS President acted like some sort of fanatic. He did the right thing. He spoke according to his beliefs on the subject of student fees and condemned violent thugs who changed the news agenda from questioning the cuts to shock and outrage at students behaving like scum.
  • Don't be silly. There have been plenty of mentions of the European wing of anarchist scum. You ought to spend more of your free time reading quality papers, and watching News Night rather than foolish reality TV.
  • I suppose they expected the public to act like democrats, not hoodlums. In fact, about 99% of the people on the student protest did exactly that. It was a minority of lefty and anarchist scum who broke into buildings, attacked police and destroyed other people's property.
  • road2zion
    Stupidity is something we should feel sympathetic towards, people who do not have the IQ to contribute to society as much as the smart should not be allienated and disregarded, as the people who are born rich are assumed to be smarter because they went to finishing school. They should pay for them out of the kindness of there hearts, understand that peoples views of the world are misguided by all the bullshit propaganda published and that they will teach their offspring in accordance with their own misguided views brought on by inequality and an arrogant view that opportunities are handed to you dependant on who your parents were and how hard they worked.
  • Midwinter1947
    Not at all. I do not approve of violence BUT I also do not approve of jumping to conclusions.
  • road2zion
    Never dealt with any of what? People stageing a mass protest and turning it into some fun by smashing up the conservatives stronghold? Labour saw no reason to further the divide between rich and poor as the Conservatives see it as the smart and the dumb.
  • scousekarl
    Before change happens there may be chaos.
  • socgan
    You have over reacted, The viloence was from the anarchist thugs who took over the protest. Its True that they will always be ther but the majority of people are in favour of the public sector cuts. They borne the burden in their own lives and expect the public sector to take their share
  • AccommodationForStudents
    Dear abcdef, My reference to those from a poor background quite clearly states that the Government has said it will put in place 'fair access' criteria so as to not DETER those less well off than others, I didn't say they would or would not be paying. Think about it, some people may see all this 'press' and be scared off by the fee hikes, hence the term deter. I also refer you to the following line I wrote: "The fact that post graduates do not need to repay these excessive fees until they earn £21,000 will come as little reassurance.' This indicates I am fully aware that nobody will repay these fees until after they graduate and that there is an earning threshold before repayments are required. But regardless of the delayed payment £9000 a year is an awful lot of money to pay. Historically, furthering our education for not only our own gain but also that of the country and our economy was a natural progression in our education, now with tuition fees almost trebling people may well think long and hard before signing up to £27,000 of debt. It's a lot of money to pay out with no guarantee of a job at the end of it - which I accept means they will therefore not repay the fees if they do not earn the threshold. However, what's the point of going to university if you don't want to gain the knowledge that could potentially lead to a job that provides you with the financial security to own a home, bring a family into the world and not necessarily live lavishly but without worry.
  • scousesean
    Before change happens....there may be chaos.
  • gliffothewisp
    Funny, isn't it, that there was so little security at Tory headquarters. They knew damn fine that there was a march scheduled and that there would - inevitably - be some hot heads. They've got what they want, though - lots of nice scary pics in their propoganda rags so that they can ignore the peaceful demonstrators' point, paint anybody who rejects their nasty, mean-spirited plans as an 'anarchist' and thus polarise public opinion. Let's not forget that this lot are led by a PR man.
  • Squidsin
    More tedious stereotyping, more inaccuracy. The state doesn't pay for your child's education - if you're talking about student loans, and I assume you are, the point of a loan is that you pay it back, with interest. Which means the kids who have to take out loans to pay for their education will end up paying more than the rich kids parents who pick up the tab straightaway. I'd rather my children didn't start their working lives saddled with huge amounts of debt, particularly as 23K is an average salary in the UK and in no way reflects the fabulous earning power that a degree is meant to give you - you can earn £23K working for McDonalds and you don't need a degree for that, £45K plus would be a more accurate starting point for repaying the debt in that case. EDIT: Just seen your 'the poor on the other hand are lazy and stupid' comment further down the page and really can't be bothered debating with you any more, so don't respond to this, ta.
  • Midwinter1947
    Steady on, Mike. One fire extinguisher was allegedly thrown from the top of the building. This was obviously a very dangerous thing to happen BUT was it deliberate? Was it intended to kill? Moreover, windows were smashed and things were set alight but the building itself was never on fire. On the TV footage that I saw, only about 100 of the students were anywhere near the police. Most of the 50,000 were well back from the 'front line' doing nothing much.
  • t_keane
    So for Mr Arnold to welcome civic disobedience in defence of the public at large who are being ripped off to repay theft on the grandest scale by the bankers is sufficient for you to recommend the secret service monitor his actions? You may wish to live in a police state but most do not.

    It's time the British public at large woke up to this grand larceny and protested instead of sitting back and watching XFactor and Ballroom dancing! Viva...
  • seedofdestruction
    I do not dispute most of the points raised in your tirade against Blair and Brown, but I believe you proceed under the misapprehension New Labour were ever left wing. No one with any "socialist" credentials would implement the policies you list here.
  • equalitymatters
    If it had been 9 grand to go to university when i went i would not be the person i am today. I was the only person to get a first in my year and one of the only working class students. Everyone else was middle class and got their debts wiped by their parents. University was an excuse to get pissed. I don't agree with violence but I do believe in action. The violence that the youth committed yesterday is NOTHING compared to the violence that politicians and arms of the state commit against the public every day!!! I'm glad that the students stood up for what they believed in. Rises in tuition fees will further divide the classes- my theory is that they don't want the working class to be educated as universities foster radical left wing views and if we can articulate ourselves we will rise up!!!
  • acidpen
    you just keep accepting everything at face value human drone. When you're life flashes before your eyes you might just for a second realize you've always been dead.
  • bishbashbong
    Watching the video of the Students smashing the window was like watching an exact reenactment of the G20 'protestors' smashing the RBS window, surrounded by an arc of photographers while the police did nothing. Another Staged Event to be sucked in by the masses.
  • andyfisk
    How ridiculous to put it on a scale with the poll tax riots. And what a pity the NUS president denounced the small amount of aggresion feeding into the papers hands. There is more trouble on a Saturday night than there was there. What about the violence of forcing students into massive debt. What about the violence to society caused by the cuts. That is the real violence ignored by the press.
  • royshaw
    Most people are not upset by what they receive, but they are upset when they receive less than they expected. Equally, if folk are aware they they are going to have a rough ride or poor conditions they will knuckle down and accept it. The violent students are not now going to have three years of a cheap good time at uni. so they are upset. Tough. Higher education doesn't come for free, it must be paid for by current taxation or by credit given to those who will receive it and use it. There cannot be much wrong with beneficiaries paying for what they receive.
  • Thank god one section of society is standing up to the ConDem coalition. Well done the students. Now all we need is the ordinary people of Britain to get off their arses and oppose his coalitions attacks on the poor and vulnerable
  • royshaw
    Hi JackGriffin, I totally agree with you but you are not comparing like with like. I was not referring to matters in the context of health etc. In my view the only two criteria to give a right to uni. education are ability and motivation. The stupid and the unmotivaterd should not take advantage of national resources on uni. education whether their daddies can afford it or not. The able and motivated who can pay should do so. Those who cannot should be funded on an equality basis and if, in the fullness of time, they can afford to re-imburse the State then they should do so. Uni. should not be a free ride; I once met a poor but wise farm worker who remarked that "Food which is not earned has no salt in it"!
  • ffoulkesayke
    Odd the media haven't mentioned tooo much about the mass protests in Europe,,,,following government orders perhaps ????? Aux armes citoyens !!!!!!
  • Cedav
    According to the "independent" OBR they were rather better than was thought to be the case at the time of the election. I'm afraid that the fantasy world is the one that you have swallowed.
  • bishbashbong
    Don't worry, MI5 have got us all monitored.
  • LeftyLeprechaun
    Got one thanks!
  • Halfassedmonkeyboy
    Seriously? Wow! You have no right at all to injure anyone. Does it hurt when your knuckles drag the floor?
  • bleachers
    Get a job.
  • Squidsin
    I hope the above post is a joke.
  • bleachers
    A similar staged event happened in my town about twenty years ago. National newspapers reported a riot after the police, photographers and TV crews all turned up at the same time to record this riot that never happened. Police were filmed chasing one passer by and one photographer drove his car in a reckless manner. No arrests were made, no windows broken, no shouting, screaming or protest placards. The only none media audience were a handful of people standing outside the local pub wondering WTF was going on.
  • Methinks Dorothea, my dear, that you think me a male chauvinist, ageist beast, but in truth I am not. I have no problem whatsoever with a forty year old lady attending college and following a worthwhile course of study, though if it be at the taxpayer's expense (NB MINE) I would hope that it would lead to some useful career. If it be 'wimin's studies' or some such, or Media Studies, or English Lit, then I think she should pay for it herself. I take exactly the same view for young men, or old men, or young 'gals'. If the tax payer must foot the bill, the 'study' ought to have some benefit for the taxpayer, such as the student will become a doctor, or a teacher, or a nurse, or a scientist, or an engineer. I am sure there is an almost endless list of useful callings that might result from a course of study, but self indulgent courses in politics, media, women, black studies and so on are entirely worthless to anyone studying them. I hope that makes my position clear. I'd hate you to think I was a sexist pig...... :)
  • Just as it is wrong to characterise all students who attended this march as a rabble of anarchists (though some were) it is wrong to imagine that all police are like the infamous PC Smelly or the brute who lashed the newspaper seller Tomlinson, and threw him to the ground killing him. There are certainly some bad people in the police forces of this country but they are by no means like that.
  • Read his comment and you will see. In any case, a fellow like me never stints in bringing in a new idea. Only cockroaches are totally single-minded. Some of us think more laterally than that.
  • trotters1957
    "The poor on the other hand are generally lazy and stupid" I take it you are poor.
  • JackGriffin
    "There cannot be much wrong with beneficiaries paying for what they receive." Except not everyone who needs a heart transplant can afford one. That's why in a civilised society we all contribute towards the needs of others.
  • You won't ever have a problem in affording the university education of your children, since YOU will never be asked to find it more than you would have been in the last five years. Fees are nolonger the responsibility of parents. They were for my three sons, so I had to pay, but now, the state pays and you simply tip up whatever you want tokeep them in a flat. I did that too. The fees are payable by the graduate ONCE THEY ACHIEVE A SALARY OF £23,000 A YEAR. If they never get to that salary, they will never pay a penny, and if after thirty years the fees are still not paid off, they will be written off. It seems my dear that all your worry is for nothing and that you can put away your petrol bomb and anarchist flag.
  • Hector_Ing
    First sentence: allegedly thrown. Second sentence: accidentally thrown. I presume you a lawyer and you have been retained to defend these scumbags?
  • bishbashbong
    Well I could just sleepwalk through life accepting everything as I am told but I'd rather not... it may suit your lifestyle but not mine. I was an eyewitness of the riots at the G20, I saw the police holding back the peaceful protestors while the masked 'provocateurs' were allowed free reign to smash the windows of the RBS, and they didn't start the smashing until a group of photographers had gathered first. It was a staged event... everyone around me could see what was going on, a child could see it. This looks exactly the same. Now go back to sleep.
  • JackGriffin
    We were discussing student fees, I believe; what does your comment have to do with that?
  • Are you suggesting that there is no EU headquarters in Strasbourg, and that French bureaucrats do not get to decide about UK law?
  • Pledges may be found to be impossible to keep when the circumstances are found to be far worse than one suspected when the pledge was made. Changing one's mind is part of living in reality rather than in a fantasy world.
  • There will always be a divide between the rich and the poor. Mostly, the rich are hard working and clever. The poor on the other hand are generally lazy and stupid. The only way you can redress this situation is to stop rewarding idleness. Stupidity is hard to deal with in a society which does not need an army of manual labourers. The only people who should be allowed to receive a living taken by force by the tax man from the hardworking majority, are the genuinely sick and genuinely disabled. Even so, it is perfectly right that these people should need to confront the possibility that they could do some kinds of work. Havinga large parasitic element in our population, which we have weakens our nation and is profoundly unfair to the vast majority of people who work hard and pay taxes. Why should they pay more to keep people who have no money living in Westminster flats? Most of them could never aspire to live there themselves. The idea that objecting to this is somehow controversial is bizarre.
  • DeclanAhern
    You reap what you sow!

    Many of these your people have been reared on Youtube video showing repeated examples of police brutality against innocent and unarmed civilians.

    The attack on Iain Tomlinson, the sight of 6' 2" PC Smellie striking a petite woman in the face and then attacking her from behind with an extendible baton, the violent attacks on unarmed protestors at the climate protests and so on.

    What is the cumulative effect of repeated police violence especially against the weak and vulnerable? How do people feel when time and time again the police responsible are filmed, identified and charged but always get off and are never held to account for their actions?
  • sweetalkinguy
    Not true. The Commuity Charge was abolished because councils did not have reliable computer software available to administer it. That is why the government went back to a system very similar to the old rating system. Many councils were not able to draw up proper lists of potential community charge-payers. They were not helped by the number of people who dropped off the electoral register in an attempt to avoid their names getting listed. Many councils were unable to draw up proper community charge bills, let alone work out what (if any) benefits were applicable in each case. There was an added complication when a High Court judge decided that not being listed on a roll of people who had paid did not necessarily mean that you had not paid, similarly failure to produce a reciept of payment. It is an urban myth that rioting put paid to the poll tax - it was because the policy was too complicated to administer properly.
  • No body thinks the vast majority of students on a legal march were anarchistic, murderous thugs, but some were. They are the people we object to. I suspect they were not even true students. There is a small cadre of anarchist agitators and hard left ideologues at the root of stuff like this. Take the example of the 37 year old UCL 'student' president. She admitted being in the building and supported more of such action on Newsnight (see Iplayer). I hope she is done for aggravated burglary.
  • That doesn't mean that living on benefit should be a lifestyle choice. That is what it has become.
  • bishbashbong
    The EU is THE singlest most important problem in the UK, it is THE cause of all that is wrong in the UK. This protest has everything to do with the EU... brush it under the carpet at your cost.
  • Richard_London
    It must give you a headache just getting through the day when you cannot accept anything you see, read or hear at face value.
  • Thank you for sharing your thoughts. However I disagree with most of them. What I will comment on is the point about the majority being ignored. This is very true. Labour went full in the face of the vast majority of Brits by opening the doors to alien immigration on an unprecedented scale. This has given rise to a boost in popularity for the extreme right. I'm not talking about people who object to alien cultures taking root among resentful non-integrated immigrants in many of our northern cities; most Brits, though welcoming the genuine 'new Brit', are deeply offended by bearded, ranting misogynistic, aliens like we so often see. I'm talking about the lunatic fringe of BNP scum and the EDL who are naught but thugs and cretins masquerading as political movements. People have been ignored, and the worm has turned.
  • Richard_London
    I blame the Police. For everything.
  • torysarefascistpigs
    But it's the only language they understand, these politicians. None of them care about the "stupid people" who vote them in. They're in it for themselves. They need to be shown that unfair treatment won't be tolerated. Why are the students being made to pay for Britains supposed debt when they weren't the ones who caused it but those greedy bankers. Why aren't the bankers being made to pay for it by having their wages cut and bonuses stopped? Students pay enough as it is. This is just sheer greed. I knew something like this would happen, which is why I didn't vote conservative and never will, they only care about protecting themselves and their rich buddies.
  • bishbashbong
    I gave you a like agent0060, but I disagree with any notion of where violence should be directed. There is a 'Civil Contingencies Act' waiting in the wings, you possibly know of it. It is these sorts of protests, rioting and property damage that the Government are encouraging through policy and media manipulation. They are manipulating a 'state of emergency' whether it be real or in the minds of the people in order to implement it. The Civil Contingencies Act is the same as the Enabling Act used by Hitler... protest is not the way to stop it... Non compliance is the answer. What if all the sixth formers in the country making plans to go to University got together and just didn't fill in their UCAS forms? That would be a real protest and it would have far reaching consequences than carrying a banner in London.
  • NanyangParkway
    "Alledgedly thrown?" Nowadays fire extinguishers are flinging themselves off buildings by themselves are they? How else would you explain it's progress from the roof of the building to the pavement in front?
  • There you go - no freedom of expression where the left is in the ascendant. What else would one expect? Even worse, under the liar Blair and the megalomaniac Brown, we were spied on at every turn and monitored and had to apply for a special character permit to be seen in public if a child might be present. Of course the lefty fools who delight in this kind of thing think that is all fine and dandy. They want a big brother state to control them and everyone else, and to take away the money earned by the diligent to give to the workshy and the profligate and the poor single mums who can't control, their urge to copulate unprotected with every man that looks at them.
  • was that the model with the Wankel engine, or the wanker student engine?
  • While I agree the students have a right to be upset about the drastic rise in fees in order to insulate foreign students from rises, see Telegraph article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8122581/David-Cameron-admits-tuition-fees-increase-will-keep-cost-to-foreign-students-down.html, the point they need to remember is that violence does not help their cause. If the students want to send a message to the coalition then the best thing to do, I feel, is to vote against the AV referendum that is coming up and work to defeat, at the next general election, those who supported the rise in tuition fees. Only by using the processes that are available in a democracy, such as voting and petitioning, can a government be held accountable to the people.
  • That's poppycock. Conservatism is based on the idea of the small state. That means they object to taking money off me and giving it to you. They object to government borrowing large amounts of money in my name and giving it to you. YOU have no right to take my money by force and spend it on your lifestyle. Also, your final remark is also false. Banks now have strict rules on liquidity to abide by. Do you live in a world of fantasy or is it just the drugs that create your state of delusion?
  • ddraver
    And with that sir, you reveal yourself as an idiot!
  • Its a damned lie that there are no jobs Joe. There might be no more of your old job around, but there are plenty of jobs. You may need to get on a bus too, but there are jobs aplenty. Just ask the Poles. A million of them came here in two years and most worked. Meanwhile, the 'poor victims' people like you talk about, spent the day sitting on ragged settees and watching rubbish on day time TV, only getting up now and then to complain that they had to go and sign on for their dole every fortnight, oh - and the money to pay their rent, oh - and the money for popping out more kids etc...... The idea behind the welfare state was that people could be helped in times of sickness and unemployment. It was a leg up, and not a lifestyle. That is what it has become now. Time for a correction. A good friend of mine who is 55 has been a supervising structural engineer all his adult life. The company he worked for made him redundant last April due to a downturn in demand. He started work on the first of November in Hamburg after applying for five-hundred and fifty-seven jobs. Now he has one. The welfare state that helps out a man like him is fine, but the welfare state that encourages idle, shiftless, irresponsible scum to sit on their backsides at my expense is a cancer on society. Welfare must be time limited. All of us must be responsible for our own support. Only the truly sick, and I mean the seriously ill should be able to expect lifetime support. If you have kids, then pay for them, don't expect me to be their father.
  • agent0060
    Clearly your brain cannot encompass more than the obvious. And, since the main EU site is in Brussels, your geography has also suffered.
  • voxpop2012
    The perpetrators were very young, surprisingly well-mannered and rather middle-class.

    ohh dear. were the perps expected to be older, il mannered and working class? like the sort you bang on about being layabout scroungers ect. It would all have been very conveinient and totally pointless without the Violence... odd that the government condone sending young people off to foreign parts to be violent, but they don't like it when young people get violent on their own doorstep
  • Midwinter1947
    They were probably still believing the LibDem pre-election promise - Cleggy hadn't spoken about regretting his pledge at the time of the demo. So, LibDems were still allies as far as they were concerned and the increases in tuition fees could be seen as entirely a Tory idea. By the way, according to the BBC and Channel 4, only one student entered the Conservative Party offices so your charge that they ransacked the HQ is not justified.
  • bishbashbong
    The Governement isn't worried about the police, they are just useful idiots... the EU have a new Police Force ready to take control when they finally receive the key's to the UK.
  • Sterling77
    Weed, you are full of your own cr@p.
  • JimmyWall
    Police budget cut by Tories, police fail to protect Tory headquarters.
    Coincidence?
  • LeftyLeprechaun
    be off to the daily mail with you!
  • 9009MIKE9009
    Definition of Educated. Showing evidence of schooling, training, or experience. Now look at the picture at the top of this page. Any money we have spent on schooling yesterdays marchers has been wasted. You can not justify trying to kill police officers with fire extinguishers and setting fire to a building where people are trying to earn a living in order to pay the benefits for the mindless mob of students who have nothing better to do than destroy property try to kill people.
  • Squidsin
    You have to wonder if the police's 'failure' to anticipate what everyone else in the whole country saw coming has got anything to do with the massive cuts about to be forced upon them, with inevitable redundancies in frontline services. If we're likely to see more riots, as is being predicted, then this could be a taste of what is to come.
  • LeftyLeprechaun
    This is hopefully the beginnings of waking Britain from its apathetic tail lifting to these purely ideological cuts, the Bullingdon club with there liberal lapdogs to finish what thatcher started thirty years ago.
  • " bullying the victims is too much to bear for many people, mixed in with the LibDems adoption of many Tory policies. " Rubbish! What has happened in the last two years is a direct result of government mismanagement over the previous thirteen years. It was LABOUR who allowed the banks to run as they did. Across the English Channel in France, banks are forbidden from lending more than three times salary in TOTAL CREDIT. The effect of this is that housing in France is cheap by comparison to here. When you open up credit, you cause prices to rise. Google 'supply and demand' and look at the effect on prices and wages. Labour cynically lived off the boom it allowed to happen. They could have intervened, but encouraged banks to overlend so that not only were UK individuals amongst the most indebted in the world, but government was fast getting there too. Of course when that other huge debtor nation the USA hit the buffers for the same reasons, our banks teetered on the brink of chaos. Vast amounts of money had been loaned to individuals who were entirely unable to pay, and those individuals realised that they had huge loans on property they had paid far too much for. Asset prices collapsed, and loan defaults increased. Then the other side of New Labour's miracle gone wrong was exposed. The government itself was an even worse debtor, having spent vast amounts it did not have.

    This all has to be corrected. Students can nolonger have free higher education. They must pay more. Lifelong benefit claimants will be made to go to work. People who live in houses that most of the UK population could never hope to afford, will nolonger have the employed pay for their homes. What is wrong with that? Since when do I have the RIGHT to have others pay my income, or my housing costs? By what right do people expect ME as a tax payer to fund their lifestyle??? Please explain. I'd love to understand the topsy turvy reasoning....
  • This is my BIGGEST HATE of what Labour did. Let me explain. I have three now grown, graduate sons. The eldest is thirty, the youngest twenty-four. Inspite of the fact that all three of them have been grafters since the age of thirteen, and all of them are better qualified than their mother and I, not one of them owns a house. They live in expensive rented property. This is LABOUR's gift to the young. By the age of twenty five my wife and I owned on a mortgage a nice little new house. We also rented a weekend cottage. Were we bankers? No. We were well qualified graduate teachers. How could this be? Simple. In those days government controlled credit. There was a strict limit to how much banks and building societies could lend. It was three and a half times total income. This meant that housing stayed cheap. My house cost only three times my income as a new teacher in 1975. Now it costs nine times a teacher's salary. That is what LABOUR did to the young. my hard working taxpayer sons will have a much harder life than their mother and I, not because they have some student debt, but because they will have to pay a fortune for housing. NOT ONLY DID LABOUR ALLOW HOUSE PRICES TO RUN AWAY, THEY CREATED A BUY TO LET SCAM LANDLORD BONANZA.
  • I didn't address either of those issues in my nearby post, Martje old chap. I dealt with an entirely different betrayal of the young, the idea that it would be in anyone's interests to send fifty-percent of the young to university without ensuring that there was a need for the skills they would acquire. I bring this up for the simple reason that had this not been done, no one would be being charged at all for university education. The whole affair would be easily affordable were it reserved for the cleverest eight or ten percent.
  • mind_ful
    It seems it is now supposed to be ok to lie about pledges made in election campaigns. so long as you say 'I have lied openly'!
  • cooperative5
    Yes David Cameron can pay as can the vast majority of parents make some contribution. Those able even to contemplate going to university are vastly advantaged over the growing underclass unable to even read and write. Fees stop no one from going to university; students need to make a judgement about the benefits versus the costs. Stop feeling sorry for yourselves.
  • cooperative5
    I'm generally the first to complain at those who criticise the grammar and literacy of contributors but if you are intending to go to university then I suggest you do something about yours.
  • voxpop2012
    Is there any reason why these forums do not have a dislike button as well as a like button ?
  • Squidsin
    What idiotic stereotyping - and, unsurprisingly, completely and utterly wrong. I'm a married working mother in my 30s and a graduate who appreciates the opportunities I've had in life. I'm talking about people I work with (in the private sector), most of whom also went to uni and/or will have to decide whether they can afford to send their own kids to uni in a few years time. They're just as 'real' as the frothing right-wing 'pals' you seem to have.
  • Most of the above is entirely irrelevant. You should find an article about the EU to vent your feelings about that subject. I don't care much for paying money to the Eu and having French bureaucrats dictate our government policy, but I can recognise that this is not the place to go on about that.
  • kernowboy71
    Peaceful protest is a democratic right that many have died to allow us to engage in. I myself protested against the Iraq War.

    Violent protest is completely unacceptable.

    No-one seems to give a damn about those innocent victims caught up in this action, people going about their day to day jobs trying to provide for their families. What about graduates whose who has been disrupted as they look to pay off their debt? Anyone convicted of violent conduct, criminal damage or intent to cause criminal damage who are currently at University should be thrown off their courses. Anyone planning to go to university who actively participated because they thought it would be "a laff" should have any university offer withdrawn and be forced to re-apply. And be invoiced for the damage caused.


    Harsh? Yes. But all these clowns have done as illustrated by the headlines of most news agencies which have focused on the violence, is distract from a worthy cause, through their idiotic behaviour. Hard working students have a completedly legitimate case which has been damaged by the behaviour of a minority of idiots, so let the idiots take responsibilty for it.
  • mind_ful
    Are you deliberatley drawing a parallel with 20 years ago under thatcher? Quite right if so - this will be much worse.
  • johnmcardle
    What the rooftop occupiers ACTUALLY said in full as reported by THE Guardian correspondent who originally received their statement: 3.24pm: "Paul Lewis has managed to exchange text messages with one of the protesters occupying the roof at Millbank. The group who have occupied the roof have released a statement warning that "this is only the beginning". "We stand against the cuts, in solidarity with all the poor, elderly, disabled and working people affected. We are against all cuts and the marketisation of education. We are occupying the roof of Tory HQ to show we are against the Tory system of attacking the poor and helping the rich. This is only the beginning." http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2010/nov/10/demo-2010-student-protests-live Black Triangle Anti-Defamation Campaign in Defence of Disabled Claimants salutes them for standing up for all the sick and disabled of the United Kingdom! We will not just roll over and die!!! Disabled people will join with the campaign of resistance to the cuts and fight back until this evil regime is toppled!!! SOLIDARITY FROM THE GENUINELY SICK AND DISABLED!!! SOLIDARITY FOR THE GENUINELY SICK AND DISABLED!!! This IS only the beginning. Direct action is RIGHT. Disabled people are DYING as a direct result of these cuts! They CUT; WE BLEED! So please - don't bore me with all the hyperbole about a few smashed windows! What about the HUMAN LIVES this Government is smashing up and stamping on? Some morality!!! http://www.facebook.com/pages/Black-Triangle-Anti-Defamation-Campaign-In-Defence-of-Disabled-Claimants/117145668332176?v=info
  • The real problem which I have not seen referred to in these remarks by random contributors is the whole 'Labour' idea that it would be good for fifty percent of young people to go to university. It was a mad idea. I well remember being enraged by the then higher education minister, the liar Margaret Hodge, opining about the 'graduate premium', when advocating charging fees around the years 2000 - 2001. I wonder if when learning to be come a Labour apparatchik, she had ever had time to read about the effects of increased supply on the demand for labour and its effect on wages. Had she gained even a limited grasp of the concept, she would have known that when the market is flooded with graduates, let alone graduates in useless 'ologies' and 'studies', any idea of paying a premium would go by the board.

    I'm afraid that tens of thousands of young people have been betrayed, but make no mistake, they were betrayed by Labour and the vile Blairites.
  • Appalling the way gangs of rowdy students roam the streets throwing flowerpots through windows and dressing up in poncey clothes: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/02/channel-4-boris-dave
  • Perhaps the real problem here is that the education system itself is at fault because it was created during the industrial revolution by people with an industrial/manufacturing mindset. I saw this short film recently (The full length version is on You Tube) and I was deeply impressed. It says there is another and more enlightened way to run our education system and offeres a detailed (long version) way of creating it. Worth the eleven minutes it takes to watch. Even worth the hour it takes to watch the long version. Check it out here: http://fora.tv/2010/10/14/Ken_Robinson_Changing_Education_Paradigms
  • richardedwards
    I'm a bit bemused by the students actions. They seem to have a particular quarrel with the Lib Dems, who reneged on an elction promise, so they go and ransack the Conservative HQ.
  • Thank you for the clarification. I was mistaken. However, regarding your final paragraph, where you say some students may think twice about going to 'Uni', I do so wish they would. Tens of thousands of students are signed up on worthless courses such as Media Studies, Women's Studies, and other bizarre time wasting insults to the taxpayer. There is an argument that these are inappropriate as a use of tax payer money (and even under the new system, the taxpayer will be heavily involved) but the problem is MUCH worse for the students themselves. Who do they think will employ them? From very good experience, I can tell you that a huge proportion of them will never get a graduate level job. Half of the call centre operatives in some regions are good honours graduates in such subjects, mostly 'arts'. They are working for minimum wage salary in miserable jobs. I have inside knowledge of the call centre industry and can assure you that this is true. Science graduates, and engineering, and vocationally oriented degree students do very well, on the other hand. So yes - they should think twice, thrice and even more, if they want to do an 'ology' or a 'studies' type degree.
  • cooperative5
    You have no right to assume this means the "end of" anything!
  • Cedav
    Like many, I find the use of violence as a tactic deplorable. However, there is part of me that recognises that it is very often a failure of the democratic process. When a political party gains power largely through signing a pledge against something that it then enacts within months, it is bound to make people desperately cynical and angry. This in turn makes it easier for extremists to exploit the situation. Whilst no one would compare the UK with China, it is ironic that "call me Dave" is lecturing others on democracy whilst using "coalition" and "deficit" as words that can be used to rewrite the concept of democratic mandate.
  • DorothyErskine67
    What a lot of implications in that last paragraph: only students should be indignant about the cost of education; a forty year old woman is not permitted to be a student; students (presumably only those male and under forty) who used violence should not be prosecuted. These are very odd views for a person complaining about a restriction on freedom.
  • "The increase to £9000 a year will be crippling for most families and despite the Government promise of a number of ?fair access? criteria to ensure the poorest are not deterred from furthering their education, who, realistically, can comfortably afford such fees? It smacks of an elitist institution, widening the gap between the rich and the poor. " What a stupid remark. Firstly, students from poor backgrounds will pay nothing. Secondly, there is no disincentive because NOBODY pays upfront charges. The government pays and then when a good salary is achieved the ex-student pays back at 10% surcharge on salary. Thirdly, if they don't earn £23,000 a year they will never pay back and in any case after thirty years the whole outstanding debt will be written off. The crass stupidity of some of the contributions here is utterly incomprehensible.
  • mikems
    Media dutifully concentrating on how 'middle class' these people are. And therefore their protest is somehow invalid and can be ignored. In reality, as political memoirs repeatedly show, this is exactly the sort of thing that makes our leaders worried about what they are doing. Since this govt has no mandate for these education policies - in fact it has an anti-mandate - it is the only language we can expect them to understand.
  • Outrageous!

    Throwing fire extinguishers off a building at police is attempted murder, not just a stupid prank.

    Pushing past police who are trying to protect society, is not to be enthusiastically supported, it is a crime..

    You are advocating criminal behaviour, you ruffian.
  • ebbi581
    well said . totally agree. governments promote peaceful demonstrations for only one reason, they are bloody useless and they can easily ignore them. however the students showed that they meant business and they are not prepared to be cheated by pre election promises and pledges and u turns immediately after. uk government is in breach of a contract, the terms of the contract were whatever these charlatans promised to win the elections.
  • agent0060
    I feel it appropriate to speak as a member of, God help me, the older generation. It is a continuing surprise to me that I have reached this stage and, as far as I can tell, mentate in a similar manner, guided by vastly increased knowledge and experience, as I did when I was in my 20s. Firstly, it is to be hoped that few commenters are students. It would be unhelpful to point out to individuals their failings in terms of spelling and sentence construction. However, the failings are there and it would be wise for anyone who may still have to sit written examinations to review what they have written on here. The other point that I want to make is that is unfortunate that the student demonstration was aimed at the wrong target. It is understandable that students chose a target, tuition fees, with immediate impact on their lives, but it is not the area that requires the most protest. That area is Britain's continued membership of the European Union. It must be made clear that Britain gains no benefit from its membership of that organisation. In fact, Britain suffers both financially and in terms of legislation. The eureferendumcampaign website talks about a £14 billion gross payment per year. The important fact is that of that £14 billion payment, Britain's "benefits" amount to only around £6 billion. So, in real terms, Britain is subsidising other European countries to the tune of £8 billion a year. And that is before next year's increase. One can only guess where £8 billion a year might come in handy if spent in Britain. The legislative suffering comes from the fact that much UK legislation is dictated by the EU. Over 30,000 laws enacted in the UK before the Lisbon Treaty were dictated by the EU. Thus, those laws were not designed specifically for the UK and, perhaps more importantly, parliamentarians no longer have to think through the implications of legislation. They only have to translate the EU directive into a British format. So the EU should really be the target for any and every protest. Secession would not only keep more British money in Britain, it would force legislators to re-learn the art of creating legislation fit for UK purpose. There would also be the benefit that many ordinary people, who might currently condemn student protests, would be inclined to join in once the protests were aimed at the real enemy. Violence is, of course, to be deprecated. But as the current estimate of the percentage of the British people who want a referendum on EU membership stands at 74%, and is being ignored, peaceful protest is obviously not working. Especially since documents are coming to light showing that populations and electorates should be lied to in order to achieve the desired objective of a European single state. So violence should be directed at things rather than people. It might be that, if this were the focus, a situation could be created where the government of the day realises that it must not and cannot ignore the wishes of the British people and our country is returned to a state where we the people decide its operation and destiny.
  • I wonder why my comment was removed? I expect it was because I may have said rioters should be shot. Too harsh for the Indumpendant perhaps. Left scum. How they love to stifle free speech.
  • And who are they - 'the real people'?

    Do you mean your lefty mates at the Socialist Nit Wits meeting?

    You should get real pal. The 'real people' are the people who go to work and pay taxes. They don't support you at all, in my experience. You wouldn't recognise reality if it jumped up and punched you on the nose, and it will - trust me; the days of handing out free money and services are done.
  • mikems
    That's right. After the Iraq demos we were told repeatedly that 'demos don't work', the implication being that you might as well lump it whenever the govt acted badly. What 'message' can they expect people to pick up from that except 'demonstrate if you like, but we will ignore you'. They have seen the response to their own propaganda against demonstrations rebounding in a big way. Perhaps they should start acting democratically in the future if they don't want their party headquarters ransacked again.
  • bloodhound979
    No-one is demanding a free university education. It hasn't been that way for a long time - since Clegg and the like were at uni. Their generation demanded a free education.
  • Bit cheeky reall of Bullingdon Toff, DC to complain. Yes the violence /destruction was wrong. Dont forget what the genuine day was about, tuition fee raises beyond any reason. DC's children will walk into any Uni they want regardless of Grades, and why? Daddy can pay!!
  • Squidsin
    You are right! Although the Limp Dems have nothing to be proud of, bending over and allowing one of their key policies to be shafted.
  • it was recently estimatied that graduates will earn an average of £100,000 worth extra in wages over their lifetime. with the increase in fees they will owe £40,000 plus increased interest. add to this the increased tax from higher earnings, the loss of 3 years pay (assuming that they could find a job during the time they would be in universtiy. and it was hardly worth going to university. on the other side the government would lose the extra tax generated from higher earning and also the higher tax from their employers as large corporations will not come here if there is a shortage of graduates. this all adds up to a rediculous decision to increase student fees. this is a reflection of a concept that this government has yet to grasp. that is - the benefit of a particular investment has greater values to society than its marketable value
  • So it came to pass that while headquarters burned those in charge took it upon themselves to be elsewhere(at the tax payers expense of course) leaving the poor puppets to face the fury. Note that the parliamentary process of when to have debates and announcements on unpopular policies are carefully orchestrated to put the Lib Dems on the front line while the good news comes form the butch half of this condemnation.
  • You're an idiot mate. The Conservative Party is the largest in the government. They could only not be in power if Labour had been able to set up a coalition with the Lib Dems. As it happens, Labour could not persuade the Lib Dems to work with them. Why? Simples... The Lib Dems knew that Labour had been thrown out by the people. Labour had its worst ever result in the last seventy years. The upshot of this is that the Lib Dems agreed to work with the largest party. That is what our democracy is about. As for the dismantling of services; understand this: YOU HAVE NO RIGHT to sit on the dole forever sucking up money from people who go to work. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT to live in a house you can not pay for yourself. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT to riot when government says you can't have free money and services because the country has been living on huge credit card for more than a decade and the debt has to be paid back. Under Labour profligacy, the interest payments for Labour spending now amount to three thousand pounds per tax payer. That's just the interest mind you, not the paying back of capital that Labour spent. Government debt interest costs more than defence or education spending. How long do you want that to get worse? Where do you want the country to end up?
  • Squidsin
    Most of the right wing press has taken the view you describe, certainly (and utterly predictably). I've heard a lot of sympathy expressed for the students amongst the 'real people.'
  • roross
    There's so much perspective lacking here that you have to accept that it's one of the reasons the fight is really coming on now. Suddenly, when the 'despicable' people that rebel against oppression (economic, or otherwise) are the ones to be blamed for everything, you know that the ****t must eventually hit the fan. Bankers and politicians can hold countries and continents to ransom and there's nothing 'despicable' about that. When people like George Bush can publish his demented rantings and sell 5 million copies in advance, everybody, not just the left, should be worried. The young left are digging their trenches only because the old (and young) right have been firing their missiles for far too long now and and plan to keep doing so .
  • VivaLaRevolution
    This is to be paid in respect as well, due to the ringfencing of MPs wages and expenses that has ocurred during the 'Cuts' that have affected everyone in the land EXCEPT the very MPs making the 'Cuts' And no-one is allowed to mention this LACK of Budget reduction from the £455 MILLION Parliamentary budget. Come on Tony Benn surely you have an opinion on this one. Let's hear it.
  • VivaLaRevolution
    Help is at Hand. THe First Course to charge the Full Fee will be the MP BA course. It lasts 5 years and is a prerequisite to being placed on any parliamentary constituency list. The £9,000 must be paid in cash at the beginning of each academic year. On being elected an MP Every MP must pay, out of their MP income, without claiming back as expenses, a yearly Fee of £9,000 a year to be paid towards the education departments budget. So Mps will suffer with university students even though they will be able to afford the fee and the students will not.
  • VivaLaRevolution
    Help is at Hand. THe First Course to charge the Full Fee will be the MP BA course. It lasts 5 years and is a prerequisite to being placed on any parliamentary constituency list. The £9,000 must be paid in cash at the beginning of each academic year. On being elected an MP Every MP must pay, out of their MP income, without claiming back as expenses, a yearly Fee of £9,000 a year to be paid towards the education departments budget. So Mps will suffer with university students even though they will be able to afford the fee and the students will not.
  • VivaLaRevolution
    This is to be paid in respect as well, due to the ringfencing of MPs wages and expenses that has ocurred during the 'Cuts' that have affected everyone in the land EXCEPT the very MPs making the 'Cuts' And no-one is allowed to mention this LACK of Budget reduction from the £455 MILLION Parliamentary budget. Come on Tony Benn surely you have an opinion on this one. Let's hear it.
  • tamba
    I would put my life on the police providing some kind of provocation. I am not condoning the actions of the rioters, and I think that this will damage the student body in the UK. That being said take a look at the 43rd second of the first video. Yet another case of police brutality. Kicking someone on the ground of all places... Tut tut
  • Squidsin
    I don't condone violence but we're talking about a pack of kids here - as the article says, many of them were 15 or 16 and not even old enough to vote. Kids often express anger by lashing out - and what other recourse did they really have? Writing to their MP? To David Cameron - a multi-millionaire whose family won't be affected by any of the devastating cuts he's imposing? Yeah, that'll make a difference...
  • Well said. It is a well known fact that these lefty mantras are almost always based on some fantasy version of the reality. Their world is one of resentful mythology and lies. Add to that a big dollop of financial illiteracy and you can see why after thirteen years of Labour idiotic management, the government pays £3000 in debt charges every year for EVERY MAN WOMAN AND CHILD IN THE UK.
  • noname1212
    I would say it is hard to be so universal as you say, violanceaimed at property has been apart of protest for ages. see my other post, I really do think that the protests who vandalised have highlighted this issue more than the demo, to that extent they succedded in their objective. I also believe that police may wewll have their own aganda and deliberatly underresourced the march in order to highlight the fact that this gov is going to need them.
  • Dear Nick Clegg, this is not just about tuition fees. It is about huge cuts in government spending that in some cases will place the cost of university solely on the student - please put this as your status/twitter so that he might hear us. Thank you
  • If people want something then they better make some noise and we'll get what we want if we let them know we're willing to do anything to get it.
  • 1 fire extinguisher got thrown from the roof, by one person, no one applauded this. "this is a sad reflection of today's' youth" being young does not make you a bad person, are you living in the real world? did you call the miners "mindless scum" when they protested their jobs cut? did you call everyone who protested the poll tax useless idiots? think about what your saying. and I stress again 50,000 people where at this march maybe 500/600 where at the tory HQ and of that maybe 30 or 40 violent and the rest just got caught up in the action. it wasn't a lynch mob trying to kill the honest workers. Just young people angry because our younger brothers/sisters, children (it wasn't only the young there) are going to be paying upwards of 40K debt and denied the opportunities we, you and everyone up this point has had.
  • The rich have the same say as everyone else, they have one vote each. Granted some people have more influence; they get that by being talented and hard working. If you want more influence, why not show you are worth listening to by saying something clever and interesting, or by getting a job on a broadsheet newspaper, or even the Sun. Nobody listens to losers, and some losers riot. they belong in prison, or should be shot by the police.
  • hoinarylup
    One problem facing Cameron is his well-kown membership of the Bullingdon Club, which has an ugly record of violence and destruction. In their case it is "upper-class high spirits", which can be translated into plain English as "the laws are only for the Little People and we are above them". So when Cameron publicly condemns violence, it is liable to come across as "I object to you oiks sharing my class' privileges". This is really most unfortunate.
  • What's with using the word "lefty" as an insult? Where I come from left-wingers are considered to be caring people, while right-wingers are considered to be hardhearted prats. Somehow here being a hardhearted prat seems to be something to be proud of.
  • 9009MIKE9009
    Has anyone managed to identify the person on the front page pictures, surely they will have told someone, I believe the police should go all out to find and prosecute him/Her. I am sure they will have bee bragging about how his/her tuition fees have been well spent. They may have been taking one of the new courses like been able to balance on one leg whilst kicking hell out someone's property.
  • Reckless violence against the police, like throwing that fire extinguisher, was stupid. Using force to break in on the other hand, and attempting to push past police lines without hurting anybody, should be supported enthusiastically. I talked to so many students at election time who were voting LibDem because of their pledge. They got a clear message that sometimes voting is not enough to have your voice heard.
  • I don't get your point. It's OK to get into huge debt? What makes charging it afterwards PLUS interest better than charging it upfront?
  • JackGriffin
    "a protest against the poll tax in 1990 turned into a riot. But more recent demonstrations, such as against the Iraq war in 2003, passed off peacefully" The poll tax was abolished, but we went to war in Iraq. If Governments brush aside peaceful protests, perhaps they shouldn't be surprised when protesters then adopt more threatening stances.
  • The likes had a hiccup, but it looks like they're back.
  • True enough apart from the bit about the majority getting its way. It is patently obvious to all that minorities have been getting their way for far too long and the so-called right wing show no signs of stopping it. Mainly because they do not wish to offend their own minorities. They are minorities simply because the vast majority of people disagree with their views, yet the majority have been completely ignored for years and every kind of minority viewpoint has been forced upon us. To object is to suffer a huge onslaught of fury and insult from those imposing this minority rule. You would think the right would have the guts to terminate this nonsense but they do not. So the question is, why not? The answer is that neither left or right care one jot about democracy and majority rule. As a result standards of behaviour and custom, hard fought for, are decaying and dying. The resultant instability is everywhere and easily seen. It is no good crowing about a "broken society" if you lack the nerve to do what it takes to repair it! Yes, the State can call upon huge and violent resources to "put down" dissension as a temporary measure, but in the end, they cannot ever put down the dissension that lives in the heart of the people. If the Commies ever learned anything, that must surely be it. So putting people in jail for years, beating them on the streets or killing them with the use of armed police WILL NOT and CANNOT be the solution as it simply hardens the resolve for change and the desire for revenge at any cost. We have to get back to what gave us stability before all of these political cretins decided to use the people for the "social experiments" that have brought so much chaos. I am one of the majority that does not hold with homosexuals being allowed to march through the streets mocking the rest of us and teaching our children the lie that being gay is not just a lifestyle choice but an inherited genetic condition. For holding these views I have to suffer threats of a legal nature, ridicule, the violence of coercion and so on, even though I am one of the majority. My rights and views have been and are being subverted by a selfish few and I am given no platform to air my arguments THAT, no matter how you try and cut it, is plainly wrong in a true democracy. I hate and loath violence and have spent the best part of thirty years trying to fight against it in peaceful ways. (Being ignored all the way by political vested interests of course.) However, I am realist enough to know that there comes a point where people will not and cannot go on trying to talk peacefully in a rigged debate in which they are out gunned by those in power. Sooner or later violence will erupt. History shows that peaceful debate does not change things because politicians are wedded to their ideologies and greedy self interests and not to reason or any theoretical democratic process. To them, democracy is a word to use to silence opposition to their excesses. Violence on the other hand, no matter how much I hate it, has often worked to change things. In fact, the parliamentary system we have now was won by violence. The vote itself was won by violence. It may be that in the end, violence will be the catalyst for change once more. It could be prevented but not by the dishonest men and women now in parliament. They must be purged before any hope of changing things can be seen. These students are not seeing the big picture because half of them have no idea what that picture is. Therefore they are attacking all the wrong targets. My guess is that they are being manipulated into doing just that.
  • I don't know. I usually post what I want to say the first time. I see some lefty troll has ordered my perfectly proper opinion deleted (reviewed). That's the left for you; say anything they don't like and you're for it. I just watched that News Night footage. That near forty year old 'student' harridan ought to be arrested. I sincerely hope she is, as she admitted taking part in what could only be an aggravated burglary.
  • The public were only victimised by LABOUR who spent vast amounts of money on credit, milking the tax paying public for more and more to 'redistribute' as they called it honest hard working tax payer's money to the idle and workshy. The debt is so large that just the annual interest payments are £3,000 for every man woman and child in the UK. That will go on for ever more unless spending is cut, and it gets worse.
  • AccommodationForStudents
    Although I fully support students? right to peacefully protest against the Government?s decision to almost treble tuition fees, violence in any form can never be condoned. One student was quoted on the news supporting the violence, stating it was necessary in order for the Government to take notice. But is violence ever necessary? Are these radical few really our future? Let?s hope not. The aggression clearly stemmed from frustration at the injustice of having to pay so much for an education that previously had been our birth right. The fact that post graduates do not need to repay these excessive fees until they earn £21,000 will come as little reassurance. After tax, living costs and now disproportionate student loans, post graduates will be left struggling financially. The days of Pot Noodles and scrimping and scraping will now live on well into their careers and family lives. And let?s not forget the immense difficulties first time buyers already face in getting on the property ladder ? with massively inflated student loans to repay will there realistically be enough cash to buy a home? Probably not, which will lead to a knock-on effect on the housing market. The increase to £9000 a year will be crippling for most families and despite the Government promise of a number of ?fair access? criteria to ensure the poorest are not deterred from furthering their education, who, realistically, can comfortably afford such fees? It smacks of an elitist institution, widening the gap between the rich and the poor. Although I fully condemn the violent outburst of the radical few at yesterday?s protest, I also fully condemn the ?Condemnation? Government and particularly Nick Clegg who is clearly not a man of his word.
  • hippobreath
    i suppose they can deduct the costs of the riot from the education budget. interesting that students demand a free education yet despite increasing numbers of graduates too many of them fail to acquire the basic skills that make them employable- we have to hire immigrants instead. why should the tax payer fund student degrees that produce unemployable people?
  • noname1212
    an utterly predictable response and one which no doubt a cynic could have forsean was that of the police not deploying enough resources due to cuts in police budget. As to the riot, it certainly was not that big, compare it to the polltax or even some of the actions of the suffragetes. As for the amount of damage I really think that the suiffragetes hold the record on window breaking, can violance on this scale ever be justified well it appears the answer is yes, however no one has really put a case to justify this violance and I am not about too yet, it can only be justified if a larger campaign of which it is a part actually achievessomething worthwhile and well we are a longway from that.
  • I have been saying since the start of this condemnation "I PREDICT A RIOT". Unfortunately for them I feel this is only the tip of the iceberg of negative feeling which is growing at an alarming rate outside of London towards this condemnation of a coalition. Come the spring and the alleged vote for a better system of choosing a government this government will finally explode however by that time some of the most severe damage may have been rail-roaded through parliament and into law by the continued acquiescent of the Lib Dem sheep who are blinded by the silver and gold thrust upon them due to their high office. I PREDICT A RIOT
  • candy156d346wheaaa23426yarrfa
    To me the worrying thing about the whole university expense issue and it's dissuasive affect towards students (especially those of poorer backgrounds) is the massive gap between common perception and reality. University isn't any more expensive for students whilst at university now than in the 90's, not due to government policy at least. The tuition fees and student loan must only be paid off whilst earning decent enough salaries. The availability of bank accounts with large overdraft facilities surely makes it easier for students than a decade ago. The primary increase in living costs must surely come down to aspects unrelated to government education policy: e.g. rent inflation, academic book price inflation, increased alcohol taxes etc. What's more, even over the long term, for students from poorer backgrounds it is undeniably cheaper now - and made cheaper still by these proposed changes - than a decade ago, with tuition fees not applicable and instead more grants made available. However due to common perception I expect a lot of prospective students from poor backgrounds must dismiss university out of hand without finding out their own personal likely costs, based purely on an expectation of high current and future expense. There's also the unrelated issue that attending full-time education means a loss of many state benefits and no immediate income to make up for it (pretty crippling for a section of society which by definition don't have savings to draw upon). This must surely be a massive dissuasion for anyone of such background considering studying for a degree despite the lifelong increase in livelihood it would likely entail. It would seem to me two things are needed: 1) more accurate reporting by the media of the true breakdown of the personal cost of higher education and 2) changing the benefits system to make university less financially unattractive to those on state benefits.
  • I was at the march and I was at the tory HQ. Most students didnt even know what the building was and where just gathering to see what was turining out to be an interesting scene. To start with from what I can tell is a few got into the building through the front door and where just peacefully trying to make a point. later more and more people came Im hoods, masks and bandanas and started breaking the windows and whipping everyone up into a frenzy. I doubt any student came with the intention of rioting we're at uni to make a better future for ourselves and trouble with the police is the last thing we want. I found that most of the pushing and shoving and people actually in the tory building where the press, there was about a 3 - 1 ratio of press to students who had forced entry and we're being criminalised I think that should be taken into account. When the fire extinguisher was thrown from the roof the crowd reaction was condemning of the act and every one was shouting stop throwing sh*t from the roof. no one wanted to see anyone hurt. I think the police on scene did the best they could but they should have reinforced when the crowd was gathering it was a good 2 hours or so of being outside tory HQ before anything really kicked off and they could have just held the crowd back from entering the building and stopped allot of damage and prevented the march turning sour.
  • kernowboy71
    It's not more widely reported because it is an urban myth/legend/fantasy

    Vodafone agreed to pay £1.25bn after negotiation with HMRC. They had actually made provision for a maximum amount of £2.25bn including all fees if they had chosen to contest this, because it related to offshore businesses in Luxembourg and because it fell under European tax law it wasn't quite defined where liability existed and because the law under which they became liable was actually brought in retrospectively which was an issue of huge contention.

    Vodafone received a small percentage discount for coming to a quick agreement and payment schedule, but by doing this actually saved the government money by not forcing them to take Vodafone through the courts which would have taken years and cost millions.

    The figure of £6bn is pure fantasy. Fact
  • jucameron
    The most depressing picture to emerge from the students? day of violence in London was of a group of balaclava-clad Neanderthals with a mis-spelt placard stating, ?We are your future?. Alternative routes to a degree must include concentrated degree courses in local colleges and a return to the night-school and day-release programmes available to my generation. Or students could apply to elite American universities such as George Bush?s alma maters Harvard and Yale which offer free (?needs-blind?) classes and accommodation. Ironically in view of the contempt they have for the former President, only a couple of thousand of our half-million students are bright enough to have any hope of entry.
  • plumplum
    So is the new format the reason Disqus has been so Disqusting lately? Can't say it is an improvement. Where have the likes gone?
  • koosdelarey
    violence committed by the left or by students is almost always excused or downplayed by the liberal media as an expression of anger or outrage, but an english defence league march protesting against islamic extremism and mass migration, and watch the headlines fly. "hate" and "racism" are the order of the day, never outrage or anger at having their nation colonised by people who have nothing whatsoever to do britain.
  • Well said. The destructive left have nothing to say. The vast majority of the population loathe and detest them, and seeing what they saw on TV will bring a huge resentment against them. They will gain nothing but contempt which is all they deserve. The lesson they all need to learn is this: NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO EXPECT OTHER PEOPLE TO GIVE THEM MONEY FOR NOTHING.
  • Best television to come out of the UK for years.
  • ExPatJoe
    No, the left want people who are at a severe disadvantage through no fault of their own (say, the unemployed who just saw their jobs move to the Far East) to be helped by those who have a severe advantage through no fault of their own (say, the Camerons of this world who were born into serious money and have never had to worry whether they will run out of cash by the 25th of the month). The "viscous idiots" (sic) are those who pretend that it is possible to have zero unemployment and that all you need to do is "get up of (sic) yer arse". As for the comment about publishing books, the comment was made about one particular book, ghost-written for one particular author, who is, as it happens, the perfect example of "viscous idiot".
  • allenn007
    Let's not forget the Vodafone £6 billion tax evasion, let off. Should be headline news.
  • You should not be ashamed - Mr Blair deceived us all.
  • dynamhum
    Truth is although the people who caused the damge are being branded as thugs, the real thugs are the govt. They insist that it is 'fair' to blame the people of this country for the deficit. Every country has a deficit, there is no excuse to hurt people like this, it's time to fight back!
  • 9009MIKE9009
    The violence was created by Mindless Idiots, I agree. Why are we paying for Mindless Idiots to go to University ? I suggest that any monies due to go to Universities, is first deducted all the damage that they did yesterday and any more they are currently dreaming up. The Everything should be Free Labour Party, should first work out who is going to pay for it, Students don't want to, Parents don't want to, Business does not seem to want to, I guess it will be down to those of us who have to work 60 hours a week just to afford to break even. It must be time to call time on these Clowns who believe Media Studies and Sociology, Politics etc are worth studying for 5 years. Get them out of the classrooms and into some real work, building, cleaning, caring, making.
  • roross
    You might try taking some basic reading comprehension lessons, abcdef. Perhaps go on to g,h,i,j,k etc. to start with. Maybe a bit of history too I've said nothing of what you rant on about. And I've worked all my life and have no debt whatsoever.
  • divide and conquer, you are a vector of hate towards students heh?
  • thesmallerprint
    abcdef, you're such a troll. aww... how do you delete a repost?
  • thesmallerprint
    abcdef, you're such a troll.
  • 9009MIKE9009
    Of course been young does not make you a bad person, brainwashing by organizers of violent protest makes you a bad person, 1 fire extinguisher could have killed one Police Officer, or reduced the student population by 1 if it had gone astray. You are mixing up protest and violent protest, all the protests you have mentioned had violence as a norm. You still don't seem to understand that when you run out of money you can't have everything you want. If this lot went to work we may be able to pay for the next generation. However at the moment we don't have it and throwing your dummy out of the pram, or fire extinguishers off the roof will not help.
  • as usual you are talking sh$te...
  • Are you on drugs or are you just psychotic? What money did the students have that was stolen by the bankers? As for spirit on the street, I'd agree that there was probably a good amount of spiritS on the street. I hope they are more sober now.
  • I think university is a right! Everybody ought to go. And be paid lots of money to party for three years. And be given a lump sum to go on a holiday for a 'gap year'. Then everybody ought to be given a degree just for showing up on exam day and writing their name correctly on the exam papers (phonetically would be acceptable for the disadvantaged). That would make our society more of a level playing field. No? ;)
  • ... no but it will focus their mind... the pressure should be on the establishment, not the victims (the public)... it is their system (tinkered through layers upon arcane layers of control, not the people's)
  • iancpurdie
    Nice to see class distinction is still alive and well in Britain in the 21st century. Australians, apart from a handful of pretentious gits, outlived that mentality over 100 years ago. Everyone has a right to higher education irrespective of race, colour, creed or social background. Training and apprenticeships are a matter of choice not some pre-ordained destiny foisted upon people. Personally I think you're better off doing a trade, then a degree, then management. That way you bring the "real world" to the job when you become a CEO. I know quite a few.
  • Defict left by the last gov hey? Go do some reasrch buddy because you will notice a trend. All new governments are always cleaning up the "mess" from the last gov. Thatcher left us in a mess, blair left us in a mess, brown left us in a mess, meet dave he can swim like a fish will leave us in a bigger mess. Do you know why they all leave us in a mess? Because they are only there to serve Capitalism mate! And guess what? It's at your expense!

    Wait and see what mess "meet dave I can swim like a fish" Cameron leaves us in.

    Have a nice day slaving away for your masters, I'm off back to bed!

    They(insert all parties) are all one and the same!
  • Well this is the message from Lefty Scum; the kind of people who advocate riot and mayhem in a democracy are the kind of people who support terrorism and anarchy. Democracy is a simple concept. People vote; the majority party forms a government. If it can not, then a coalition is formed. That is what has happened. Now, sore losers like NeilM, feel that riot and violence is the answer. It is not, and you will find that the reason the British do not riot is twofold. First, most British people are democratic and understand that elections produce governments who make law and that law must be obeyed. Secondly, Neil will find that normally, the response to riot and disorder in Britain by the state is hard policing and long sentences. Google the Oldham riots and see what happened to the Pakistani thugs who rioted. That is what will await the new generation of anti-democratic thugs. Democracy does not mean that NeilM always gets his way. It means that the majority gets its way, AND, NeilM will find that the majority in this country do not live on the dole and resent those who do. The majority in this country pay their own housing costs and resent those who suck off the state to pay for theirs. The majority pay their way NeilM. you do the same.
  • lettus
    Err, yes, but there are almost no apprenticeships any more.
  • the idea that the UK was anywhere near bankruptcy is to quote Christopher Pissarides "pure political spin to justify a familiar ideological project of a smaller state". there is a difference between free universitiy education and trippling currernt fees. it is a real shame that a valid argument of how high fees should be set is always responded with this idea that we are all denial about the deficit. thing is, all this policy is doing is moving the debt from public to private, its simple moving the debt.
  • Berk09
    Stop bashing Media studies. The article you are commenting on could very well have been written by a previous Media student. Every form of entertainment you read, watch or listen to is a form of Media. Media students are valuable to the future of the Media industry that you most likely partake in every day.
  • Now the left object to people publishing books? How very liberal of you. The trouble with the left is that it appeals to viscous idiots who want other peoples money to be spent on them, and want to curtail other people's freedoms. Always the way. Get big bully state to take other people's money and spend it on them. What a sick philosophy. Get up of yer arse and earn your own living lazy boy.
  • equalitymatters
    Hard working police? I agree the police are good in some situations but when they are armed and hitting 17 year old girls on the head and letting fathers die in their hands (G20 summit) they act a deterrent to protest and further enforce capitalist law. We have the right to protest if we feel we are being treated unfairly. I work 45 hours a week for pittance, I have a first class BA and MA and I'm looking to do a PHD. Not all anarchists and lefties are scroungers - the educated people who work around me also foster left wing views. If the police want no violence then they should not be armed and try to intimidate people and carry out acts of violence indiscriminately.
  • candy156d346wheaaa23426yarrfa
    I think Kerry's correct. Within such a large group there are simply bound to be troublemakers who either "just want to break something" or believe violence will help bring attention to their cause (and sadly it seems to work). The level of violence was no more (and was really far less) than protests from decades past. Although I totally agree those people responsible for physical violence and especially endangering life need to be brought to justice and held accountable for their actions.
  • economicallyinactive
    Nice idea but they'll need more than the student and academic vote. Clegg received 27,324 votes at the last election with the Tories second at 12,040. How exactly are they going to turn over that kind of majority? And then what, let the Tories in?
  • equalitymatters
    If the tuition fees had been 9 grand when i was at university i wouldn't be the person i am today. I was the only person to get a first in my year and the only person to take my education seriously. Everyone else was middle class and had their debts removed by their parents. A further rise in tuition fees will further divide the classes - obviously a hidden ideological move on the part of the tories. I don't agree with violence but I do agree with action. The violence that was committed by the youth yesterday is NOTHING compared to the violence that politicians and arms of the state commit on the public every single day!!!
  • 9009MIKE9009
    Are you in the real world, there were Students there trying to kill hard working Police, with Fire Extinguishers, this is a sad reflection of todays youth, nothing to do but scrounge of hard working people so they can get a job with pay far in excess of the dreams of the average working person. I watched this for some time and only saw violent people desperate to do damage and hurt working people. I hope they are caught and locked up, the organizers should also be put in the dock.
  • JohnBEllis
    Which is why I said "led to", and not "caused" - or, as you have it, "put paid to". I agree, rioting on its own tends to achieve little without a follow through, and you rightly point that more than mayhem on the streets was involved in bringing about the abandonment of the community charge. But serious rioting, in this country at any rate, disconcerts and jitters those in power - not least because Brits aren't ready rioters. It suggests to them that they may have overstepped. If resistance follows through beyond the rioting - and you acknowledge that, over the poll tax, it did - the riot is still a factor in leading them to decide that what they hoped to gain through a policy will be outweighed by what they look like losing. Those who want to resist something in the future are aware of that; so, if they have the ideology, the passion, the disinhibition and, most of all, the following to riot, they'll riot.
  • Chaotopia

    I watched an excellent newsnight and a very big thank you to Jeremy Paxman for exposing the vacuous idiocy of the non studying "student" and how the violence directly led to the news agenda being changed from tuition fees to the limits of free protest: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mk25

    I'm sure that the violent protesters had a lot of fun, however, such activity is completely futile.

    In the end, no amount of protesting, strikes, direct action, civil unrest, rioting will generate a single solitary penny of revenue and will not change anything at all.

    The country will still be in very deep debt, there still be no money, the universities will still need to find other ways to fund themselves and there will still be tuition fees.

    Sometime the very best way to demonstrate to people exactly how powerless they really are is just to give them what they want so let them have their "Winter of Discontent" - when that ends in the miserable failure of the last one then even they may begin to understand that there really is no alternative no matter how much they protest.
  • We have the right to injure a few policeman, if it changes policy and prevents the mass slaughter of hundreds of 1000's in our name. What's the point in noble protest, when governments take no notice... last time they did, i seem to remember, followed some bish-bash in London town. Myth or not, Governments don't like protracted chaos - it looks bad on them and whether it helps them finally conceive of the fact the protestors may have a point or not, they generally don't like throwing away elections - Poll Tax abolished 1990 / Surprise Tory win 1992. Smash away ladies n gents.
  • dontalk2her
    How refreshing to see anarchists back on the political scene; they make a nice change from terrorists. Of course, very soon there will be even fewer police persons to cope with growing unrest; indeed, redundant officers could offer handy tips for building occupation and avoiding arrest. It certainly isn't going to be a particularly comfortable ride for millionaire ministers, expensive wives, nannies, personal assistants and weekend homes. This generation of students has no deference, no notion of their "place" and they want the expensive toys they see on the telly. How I am enjoying the humiliation of the lying LibDems left minding this disorderly shop.
  • Im aware of that and its a shame it happened that way, but that's 37 out of 50,000 most protests have more arrests than that Im sure.
  • Do we really need a generation of highly educated young people? I mean, this higher education stuff, is it purely for their benefit or do we (the older generation) benefit too. If it is purely for the benefit of the young I suggest we burn down the universities. However, if the education of the young benefits us all then we need to get real and support them properly for the greater benefit of our society!!!
  • crashtestmonkey
    Yeah if you're stuck in a cul-de-sac. The LibDems are genius at U-turns.
  • Curved_Space
    I refuse to be pulled into all this tribalism. The fact is they're all useless, and at this moment in time Labour are the heavy weight champions. Personally, not only did they get us into this mess they're also currently fuelling the flames by not issuing an alternative reduction plan. Their silence tells me that: 1) they haven't got one (which i doubt very much); or 2) They have one but it's the same as the governments (although they're not revealing it as they want to give the perception they have a better more compassionate alternative). This seems like party politics over the welfare of the country again. They're going to let the country take a kicking then try and sweep to power in the next general election, which further highlights what a bunch of contemptible scumbags they are. If you found it hard who to vote for in the last election, try working it out for the next one. If your like me and never vote Labour or Conservative then your well and truely up the creek.
  • I suspect you'll find when they appear in court that most of the criminals we saw are not bona fide students, but are more likely professional dole sucking anarchists and kiddies from sixth form.
  • If you amass 50,000 people there's bound to some trouble makers amongst them. I get frustrated with the british attitude towards its youth and the media has taken what was a small part of the days events, really a side note that had nothing to do with the march and made it the main focus.
  • The Times They Are a-Changin...
  • crashtestmonkey
    You don't need a degree to throw a brick. It is disappointing so many comments on here seem to condone the destruction of property and terrorising innocent people. Not everyone in that building had anything to do with the Conservative party. Mob violence is a terrifying experience to get caught up in. What I think those that approve fail to understand is that you have already lost the argument. There will be no change on this issue after yesterdays events. You have proven nothing and achieved nothing. Congratulations. "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." Mahatma Ghandi
  • From what I hear is there was a stronger police presence at the lib dem office so trouble makers where quickly stopped and it didnt get too out of hand, although I think some cars got damaged which is a shame.
  • Trevigiano
    Because they understand Libdem their only HOPE!
  • allenn007
    And you think the Tories would have done it any differently, dream on. New Labour totally embraced Conservative neo-liberal ideology introduced by Thatcher and Reagan and characterised by a complete lack of financial regulation and out-of-control capitalism. The Tories would have done the same had they remained in power. An extreme neo-con US President, not surprisingly had a similar approach for Wall Street, Blair/Brown practised the same here which, as you say, resulted in global disaster. You forget that this crisis actually originated in America, with the sub-prime mortgages and then spread here due to a 'North Atlantic' neo-liberal adherence. And now that the Tories are back in power, where are the plans for preventing a repeat of that financial crisis by breaking up the banks or stricter regulation? Well there are no plans, because they don't exist.
  • Halfassedmonkeyboy
    It didn't work then you're right. Thing is nothing would've worked then. Britain was going to war like it or not. A violent protest against the war would have achieved nought but injury to persons and damage to property. Do you think you have the right to endanger another persons life in protest at something you don't agree with? If you do I pity you. You have it all wrong.
  • BrigitteChristiane
    Ah, you must belong to the old school where a graduate had to climb the ladder to reach the top, save to pay the debts incurred during the studies and wait a little bit longer for a holiday or a house. Young people, nowadays, want to be at the top NOW, big pay NOW, have everything NOW and expect somebody else to pay. So, NOW, your know what is all about.
  • Xoterix
    Where were the students when the bankers were stealing all their money in the first place? Seems a little selfish to me. Still, good to see some spirit on the street at last....
  • 9009MIKE9009
    If this is what they are like after getting to Universities, then I think they would be better going out to work for a living. I don't want to pay for these thugs to spend years doing nothing, then going on the odd march to do damage and hurt people. If they want further education then pay for it, or get a real job. They are not my Futrue or my Future. Most should be found locked up, fined and then banned from any further education. Get those who organised this violence to pay for them if they wish.
  • costamonkey
    Get real. Totally biased article. The demo was hi-jacked by left wing self-interest groups and anarchists. There was some odious 37 year old harridan who purported (as a "student on a sabbatical") to be the demonstrators' representative when she appeared on Newsnight last night. Paxman shredded her as she spouted primary-school left wing claptrap. Simon Hughes (who I can't stand), made a valid point though. He said "yes, our election manifesto said: no increase and an eventual scrapping of tuition fees. But we didn't win the election, so have no mandate to carry out that commitment." You may call it a moot point, but it was well made. No wonder the NUS and the 'Angry Brigade' can muster 50,000 'troops' on the street. There are far too many of 'em. Back in the late 60's there were 180,000 Uni students in total. Contrast that with today. There are probably 180,000 students 'studying' for degrees in media studies, golf management, 'under-water basket weaving' and the like.
  • Tud
    Both parties in the coalition have only themselves to blame for the union strikes and other troubles we see now as they SHOULD have allowed Labour to form a government under Gordon Brown. Ask any commutator on the tube when the next train strike is on and THEY will all tell you that it wouldn't have happened under Labour, never! Gordon could and would no doubt have borrowed heaps more money available to sort things out somewhere, maybe sold off real estate (Ireland?) to raise funds, and we all would live happily ever after.
  • Scum, pure and simple, useful idiots for the Leninists and Trotskyists too.
  • NeilM639
    This is the only message our dishonest and hypocritical parliamentarians understand. It is the only way they will be persuaded to reform themselves in any meaningful way. Remember, such tactics soon got rid of both the poll tax and Thatcher. The politicians who are preaching to us about thugs are the same people, including Cameron and Osborne, who not long ago were dishonestly embezzling public money, so they have no right whatever to preach to the rest of us. A country which can strut about invading other people's countries and pretend it is still a world power, can afford to educate its young people.
  • economicallyinactive
    I'm sure if Blair can ignore a million people on the streets protesting against Iraq, Cameron and Clegg can ignore 50,000 students.
  • Tud
    If you really believe what you write you are an idiot Neil.
  • iancpurdie
    I agree with a protester interviewed elsewhere [just on ABC-TV news right now]. The vast majority of legitimate, peaceful protesters were undermined by a handful devoted to mayhem. I've held the view for decades, that this ever present small minority, upon whom the media always focus attention - implying "they comprise the majority" in five second video bites - usually have absolutely no connection with the issues of the day being protested about. The usual suspects or rent-a-crowd, take your own pick. PS: Were I a student I would also protest at the massive increase. Obviously Cameron & Co. forget the impoverished Uni days. Ah! Forgot... Mummy and Daddy probably paid and also provided a generous allowance as well.
  • trotters1957
    I still don't understand why they didn't smash up the Libdem offices as well.
  • Tud
    FYI Kerry, Through this demo there are so far 37 people now with criminal records recorded for the rest of their lives. Clever stuff!
  • As Kerry Howell says below, the violence was created by a tiny proportion of those on the demonstration. They are the same characters who create chaos at the likes of the G20 protests, and are anti-capitalist anarchists and plain thugs. They are to be resisted at all costs, and ought to be tracked down and sent to prison for at least a decade.

    Peaceful protest is a right to be protected. Free higher education; free lifetime benefits; hundreds of thousands of non-jobs in government bureaucracy are not. They are luxuries to be paid for when the economy and the government bank balance is flush with money.

    I went to uni in 1970 and was given a small grant since my folks had little money. It may seem hypocritical of me to now suggest that free higher ed. is a luxury, but it is not. Our circumstances are entirely different. Firstly, since people gave up smoking en mass, they are living decades longer. This costs the country money. Also, since New Labour chose to run massive deficits, creating a mass of public sector jobs, and then saw taxes fall in the recession, we are on the edge of bankruptcy. I paid tens of thousand for the upkeep and the fees of my three sons who recently graduated, but none of the new generation of students will be asked to pay a penny until they are earning good money. Furthermore, after thirty years, the unpaid debt will be written off.
  • "Simon Hughes (who I can't stand), made a valid point though. He said "yes, our election manifesto said: no increase and an eventual scrapping of tuition fees. But we didn't win the election, so have no mandate to carry out that commitment." You may call it a moot point, but it was well made." Or you could call it what it is, going back on a pledge and an abandonment of principles at the first whiff of power.
  • Tud
    Hang on there!!! you said "There are probably 180,000 students 'studying' for degrees in media studies, golf management, 'under-water basket weaving' and the like." You forgot the duzzy of them all, a three year fully paid for degree for the study of Belly Dancing! True... check it out, I found it hard to believe too! Still, if it gets you a Student concession on the bus, what the hell!
  • "Until yesterday, the British reaction to the proposed cuts has been remarkably mild compared with mass protests in France, Greece and other countries." In some ways its a relief to see Britons do like these other Europeans in protest. To meekly accept the cuts without a murmur like peasants doffing the cap, while in foreign countries the people demonstrate and riot makes us look a bit subservient and spineless. On the other hand it is very wrong to condone violence against property. I wonder if some of the police might have a bit of sympathy with the protests. Because the police are also affected by cuts.
  • Cant agree more, the bankers have stole the childrens future and are getting away with it big style.
  • Did you get out of bed on the wrong side this morning?
  • GeneralScheissKopf
    "a universal right." No, Simran, Higher Education is NOT. It's a privilege for some which has to be earned. For most youngsters training, apprencticeships and the shop floor were and should still be the norms.
  • iancpurdie
    "Planned" attack? Robyn have you considered just where your reporter acquaintance might have actually been "before" you met him or her. Interviewing a small group of dedicated trouble makers perhaps? Not as far fetched as it sounds and not unheard of. Knowing the media is present is just what these clowns want. They may only represent a tiny fraction of those present but you can bet the media will give the overwhelming impression they are the majority. Rarely have I read: "A tiny minority caused trouble for thousands of peaceful people protesting legitimately".
  • GeneralScheissKopf
    "we won't stand by and do nothing." No Emily, of course you won't. And I don't blame you at all. But now that the fun's over, precisely what have you achieved?
  • Education = 'welfare' Really?
  • In the previous election, so many of us (including me) militated for a hung parliament with the Lib Dems as stirrers, look where it took us... My ideas are very off beat and controversial, and did not see the light of day on The Guardian, so I presume, there is no point in posting them here... It just is not working, all of it... and they are fighting to keep the status quo on, that is all I can say... As for my political bias, I have none, but chose Labour as my dwelling, just because I do not have the means to produce my own... ... but you can change organisations if enough join in, the problem is many just argue, criticise, complain, but do nothing... It is the do nothing-ism that is killing the country, more than that supposed red herring dependency on welfare... actually, welfare was meant to encourage do nothing-ism to lead to apathy and inability to fight for one's rights... we now see the next chapter... That something like this is stirring is very hopeful though... I am very curious to see how it is going to develop here, as I have a pretty good feel of how it developed in communist, and other dictatorships... I pray for the best, and that wisdom and common sense will prevail...
  • Trevigiano
    British students are too good and not well organized.
    US abomination is entering Afghan's houses as well as UK Universities, as it is US way of life to end studies with debt for the rest of life; only difference the former are better defended.
  • Tud
    Mike you are right..they're not clever at all, but no worries they can always become teachers when they get their degree!
  • BoiledCabbage
    Students of Anarchy/Maoism/Communism/Pol Pot etc always surface during these rough patches in the smooth progression to our social utopia of free everything for everyone.
  • allenn007
    I tend to think that this is more than just about tuition fees. There is huge anger amongst people about the way things have gone over the past two years. The banks have been seen to have got away with what they did, indeed they've been rewarded, bailed out, for bringing the country to its knees. Meanwhile the ordinary people whom had no connection with the banks, are being further and further squeezed, punished, victimised and bullied by the Government(s). This is about all of the main parties failing to represent the people but the Coalition's approach of bullying the victims is too much to bear for many people, mixed in with the LibDems adoption of many Tory policies.
  • Ponkbutler
    These CONDEM thugs should be punished - and as soon as possible - for their random acts of thuggish violence against our society, their introduction of callous social control, their dismantling of organisations set up to police public and private services alike, and above all their constant lies about the economy to justify this extensive destruction. When a party without a majority in parliament embarks on wide-ranging extremist policies quite different from their manifesto, supported by a party that adopts parties which are the reverse of its manifesto, then it is encumbant upon every British citizen to defend our democracy. So, it's a big thank-you to everyone who demonstrated yesterday!
  • r3dsub
    I expect more violence in the future as the coalition policies begin to bite, this is a war of ideology. The conservatives hate the work-class and want to put them in their place. The conservatives have spent years dreaming about returning to power and kicking the crap out of the poor, vulnerable and the defenceless. They're truely repugnant people, they're driven by greed, contempt and complete disregard for anybody else.
  • simcal
    Most protests in this country have some property damage it's nothing new. It will be the excuse with which the government will be able to let lose the forces of unLaw and disOrder.
  • mike_espana
    I pondered over that as well but I don't think they're that clever.
  • Hardrada
    I suppose that inevitably, some will take the following observation (wrongly) as approval of the destruction and violence that took place; nevertheless, it needs to be said.

    It would be easier to listen to police officers condemning violence if they themselves were less inclined to use it: recall the unnecessary agression that caused the death of Ian Tomlinson, from which incident the officer concerned walked away without facing the appropriate consequences because his colleagues manufactured false evidence using an unqualified and incompetent pathologist in order to justify not bringing a prosecution.
  • The fundamental problem, of course, is that we expect, and encourage, far too many people to go to university. There are very few jobs that really require (what used to be) a degree level qualification. Many degrees now have been "dumbed down" in order to make it possible to meet the target of training 50% of people to university standard. This must be so as the minimum IQ needed to get a degree used to be reckoned at 115, and that is way beyond what 50% of the population can reach. If the state aimed to educate a third as many people to degree level as it aims to do now it could afford to provide grants for them all, as it used to, and we would not have a problem. The only real difference now, after the fees increase, is that (for most) it is the students' own money being wasted, not the states.
  • Clegg won't easily be able to ignore the Sheffield students and academics who voted him in. (I talked to a group of them on the march yesterday.) They're plotting to recall him from Parliament, under his own proposed new legislation, or failing that to vote him out when the coalition government finally falls.
  • The problem stems from the fact that There should not have been fees in the first place. This of course was instigated by the Labour Party; those who drilled into us 'Education Education Education', then shortly afterwards introduced student fees into the world of academia. How ironic then that the instigators and the party whose profligacy (some put it at £50bn wasted) has contributed so much to our debt and get off without even an insult hurled in their direction. They will of course express disapproval of the student action in public, but this gutless party who seem to have no alternative plans to anything, will be gloating with satisfaction in private. They make me sick and ashamed that I was once a Labour Party supporter.
  • "Planned" attack? I think your reporter, who I spoke to yesterday at the scene, and who was not there until after all of these things had happened, needs to get his story straight.
  • AFP are reporting that: "Cameron said those involved were "bent on violence and destruction" and should face prosecution, while also describing the police response as "not adequate" in a round of television interviews. from Seoul, where he is attending the Group of 20 summit. "Of course people have a right to protest peacefully but I saw pictures of people who were bent on violence and on destruction and on destroying property and that is completely unacceptable," he told the BBC." What drives me nuts about governments of all colours is the idea they seem to have, (which is basically feudal) that they can order the police to attack anyone or any group that they like and the police will willingly do so because they know that if they assault or kill someone, the subsequent inquiry/court case will probably let them get away with it. However, when the people have had enough of being: ripped off; beaten up; having their views and concerns ignored; Having banks and big business steal everything from them in their rigged financial game; watching election fraud happen every time there is an vote; being subjected to never ending intrusive surveillance; being lied too; seeing pledge after pledge broken by men and women with no honour, in parliament; watching the traitors give this country to the EU and get away without prosecution because the police and judges have been bought off; being treated like fools and watching the State fight illegal wars and kill people in our name just because some loony says he wants too. Again, with the full knowledge that all "inquiries" will white wash the whole thing; Having our religious and family values destroyed by organised political black propaganda and then, when the people fight back, the government and the "free" media (that is a joke in itself) slip into condemning mode. Suddenly all violence is wrong! It is not wrong when the State does it. Only when the people do it it seems. However, when people in other countries rise up against the kind of oppression, injustice and corruption we are having to live with on a daily basis, the press hail them as heroes and the government get all puffed up in support of the people! I hate violence. I want nothing to do with it. Even so, like millions of others in this country I am bloody angry at what is going on. I know it is unrealistic to expect the people to just go on taking this nonsense without violence happening. I also know that the left wing (and some "right wing" infiltrators/pretenders in the Tory party) will be working very, very, hard to stoke the violence up among the gullible young (while pretending not too, of course) because their real target is the capitalist system itself. So, once again, a bunch of perverted, power hungry politicians, aided by their plants in the media, are pulling the strings and people are dancing like puppets. That is what sickens me and Cameron can bluster and blow hard as much as he likes. He and the rest of the parliamentary crowd are the cause of the unrest. Only when the people drop their pathetic loyalty to the current big three parties and vote into power their own selected local and honest people, who have no loyalty to the big three, will there be any chance of democracy and justice again in this country. As long as we go on electing the corrupt into government we will go on seeing corruption and unfairness. Vote none of the above and put an end to it for good.
  • mike_espana
    As I said, this picture made my day and I very chilled out after laughing over it !
  • Reading this makes me remember why i read the Independent; a big thank you to all those involved: a sane voice in the insane media furore surrounding this. There were minimal violence, and no damages or violence before the police blocked the doors and started brandishing their little sticks - they made a mistake by being confrontrational and can praise themselves lucky that students never cared about the building itself, or they would have been overrun, and the building held until dawn...
  • I wonder if "futrue" is a pun combining the words true and future. The true meaning of the placard in question being something like "We are you true future", or "The truth is we are your future". Or maybe they can't spell and I'm looking too much into this?
  • tigerfish
    The British government's spending priorities are upside down. Military budgets should be cut to the bone long before education. Britain needs to ask itself if it values quality of life above delusional ideas about its importance in the world. If we weren't constantly stealing other countries' resources for the benefit of international corporations, we'd have far fewer enemies. A civilized country should never be fighting wars far from its own borders, and our nuclear deterrent has never deterred anybody in over half a century. A smaller military comes with the additional advantage that there would be less temptation to interfere in other people's affairs. In any case, who on earth do we imagine is planning to invade the UK?
  • In May 1968, the Students took to the streets in Paris, occupied the Sorbonne University (amongst many buildings) and brought Paris to a virtual standstill. Shortly after, the French TU movement joined the students and brought France to a virtual standstill. Soon after that President De Gaulle and all his cabinet resigned and was replaced by a fresh administration.The TUC and others should join the students and lecturers here in the UK today and organise protests against this Governments unfair policies. Resistance to the ConDem cuts is not just about University fees. It is about unfair cuts to services, spending and jobs which will ultimately effect all of us. The actions of this disasterous ConDem Co alition must be resisted by everyone.
  • 334626
    isn't your argument counter productive? When police are not present in sufficient numbers the violent minority inflict injury, and damage, terrorising workers and turning public opinion against the object of the peaceful majority.
  • WodjahBildaberg
    We must repect the fact that the difference between Human Intelligence Levels and Other Mammals doesn't mean Humans are smarter, Humans brought a dispassionate Commerce into a World where it has no business
  • 334626
    if peaceful protest aren't going to get the resolution what degree of physical injury do you consider is acceptable
  • mike_espana
    At least I had one quick laugh over this riot this morning. There's a brilliant photograph in another paper showing of a bunch of students carrying a placard saying "We are your futrue" !!!!! If thats the level of their spelling ability then the UK is truly f****** doomed !!!!! What a bunch of sad clueless illiterate zombies following a bunch of left wing militants.
  • Sterling77
    This 'newspaper' would dearly love to see:- "The new politics: Student riot marks end of Coalition's era of consensus". The Indy has tried for months through blatant criticism to undermine the Coalition which has been very successful in trying to sort out the massive deficit left by former dysfunctional Labour. The debt is costing £120 million per day to service. Does it really want to see our country destroyed? Does it really think it makes good copy? Unfortunately for the Indy, their sales have catastrophically dropped through unpopularity and are losing money hand over fist. Perhaps if they adopted a more moderate tone, they would encourage more readers.
  • simcal
    Take a deep breath, have a coffee and chill. It's only 8.00am
  • prmcdon
    Can you legitimately trace your ancestry back to the Celts of pre-Roman times? If not, shut the hell up you absolute fool!
  • JohnBEllis
    You need to bear in mind that, if you take into account all the marches in all of the cities of the UK, many more than a million people marched peaceably to express their dissent for the UK's participation in an invasion of Iraq. They were alternately derided or patronized, and ultimately completely ignored, by those in power in what the late Lord Hailsham - and he a Tory if ever there was one! - once termed our "elected dictatorship". Whereas the mayhem of the poll tax riots led ... to the abandonment of the poll tax. The lessons aren't hard to draw. Unless the discontent can be remedied - visible evidence that bankers, hedge fund managers, derivative traders and the rest of the financial sector are unambiguously sharing the pain, and some clear signs of belt-tightening and adeal less arrogance from parliamentarians of all parties, whether back benchers or government ministers woulkd be an excellent start, and a bellweather of change - expect more of what Westminster has seen today. As an afterthought, I seem to recall that Irish ministers and senior civil servants, and, I think, the president, took a 20% paycut when their crisis burst. We haven't seen anything seriously approaching that totemic degree of sacrifice from those in authority over us in the UK.
  • simcal
    Repost it. I'm curious.
  • simcal
    You can't compare the two. BNP or EDL is about hate and stirring up trouble. Why should any decent person find it ok to support something morally repugnant and against the common good? Students protesting for something or anyone for that matter, protesting for something that is morally good is defensible. Please don't misconstrue what I have written. Morally good does not mean that it's right.
  • simcal
    My sentiments exactly. Who would you drop a nuclear bomb on? If they dropped it on you it's all over anyway. Scrap trident, just have a home defence force. This alone would cover education and most of welfare budgets.
  • FrankPoster
    Of course he had a choice, he had 2 actually: 1. he could have done a deal with Labour and forced them into becoming far more responsible and accountable than they were, AND rolled back the uni fees 2. let the Tories govern in minority and opposed ridiculous proposals such as this one and the scrapping of the Ark Royal. Seems like the dumbing-down process already started about 2-3 decades ago and was present at Eton.
  • a_no_n
    Isn't government by mob rule technically a description of democracy?
  • Well, yes, considering that a good graduate workforce attracts employers to the country, and that most students will end up being higher rate taxpayers and thus pay the cost of their courses back + a considerable chunk extra. It all boils down to intergenerational fairness, something which seems to have been entirely forgotten when it comes to my generation. Those currently in power had to pay once for university through the tax system. Those currently in university have to pay twice, through the tax system and tuition fees, despite the fact that the quality of services that will be received is substantially poorer due to massive HE cuts, and despite the fact that graduates are an enormous boon to the economy.
  • Gottaballs
    That's an intelligent way to put your point across I don't think! I also agree that the fees are extortionately high and doesn't encourage our young people. They are supposed to be the the countries future and plunging them into unmanageable debt is unacceptable.
  • roadtrack
    Those trapped inside included Baroness Warsi, the party's chairman, who kept in telephone contact with the police,she must have been very scared, I think your right about a protest from both sides,afterall people in the forces also have there children at or going to univercity
  • You don't come across as a nice man... But seriously, an £8,000 - £9,000 a year tuition fee is a big disincentive, especially for the poorer parts of society. The tuition fee rise will really hurt the hopes of any person wanting to go to university.
  • And that the government is even thinking of trebling the cost of university fees is appalling. I went to uni in the US and got saddled with a $40,000 loan when I graduated, which is what most British university students will end up with if this assinine raise goes through. The $40,000 loan absolutely KILLED any hope I ever had of having a decent life or decent standard of living for my first 15 years out of university. If I had to do it again, I would forgo the degree (which is what many UK students will do if this goes through) and go to work instead. The degree wasn't worth being saddled with that much debt. Not to anyone.
  • Herbolzheim
    That's OK mate, as long as tax is also develoved to Scotland. If we have one tax system we should have the same access to services and funding. The alternative is Scotland being "treated" to more funds per head to keep it sweet. The UK is a dog's breakfast of constututional arangements - it's more like a little empire of states, a bit like 1848 Austria-Hungary or a mini-Otteman Empire. I'm all for free university for Scots - as long as it's free for English Welsh and Norther Irish as well. If not, Scotland may as well be independent - and raise it's own revenue and have to make hard decisions on priorities.
  • johnmcardle
    What the rooftop Tory HQ occupiers statement ACTUALLY said:? "We stand against the cuts, in solidarity with all the poor, elderly, disabled and working people affected. We are against all cuts and the marketisation of education. We are occupying the roof of Tory HQ to show we are against the Tory system of attacking the poor and helping the rich. This is only the beginning." We at Black Triangle Anti-Defamation Campaign in Defence of Disabled Claimants salute them! CUTS KILL!!!
  • MunkeyNots
    Were students AND police making a point? Both sending messages to Tory Toffpots & FibDem U-turnips?
  • johnmcardle
    Moderator: "Where is MY POST?" I thought you believed in FREE SPEECH?
  • Funny how everything comes round full cricle, just like 25-30 years ago, Conservatives are hopefully realising people won't lie down and be trampled on. Its great to see some serious action being taken. I know people who went down there and contrary to what the papers are saying, it wasn't anarchists, it was almost completley made up of students.
    Nick Clegg has shown himself up good and proper, selling himself out for his fifteen minutes of fame as the deputy prime minister. I hope public service workers and everyone else affected by these cuts takes notices, there not rioters, they're fighting for their future, and seeing as i finish my gap year for university next summer, i will certainly be joining in any further protests that will be scheduled as this sham of a government headed by Cameron and Clegg needs to be stamped out, and we can all realistically say that peaceful protests aren't going to get the resolution we are hoping for...
  • a_no_n
    I don't think that's fair really. Clegg had no choice but to side with the Tories...What he did have a choice in however was bending over for them! a choice he took without prompting (that's what I think, quite rightly ruined his career)
  • a_no_n
    Better we should all just march like good little sheep, only to be ignored and shafted by the powers that be?
  • People actually paying for their own education? What a stupid idea! Much better to get others to pay for it.
  • a_no_n
    And what would you advise ten police officers to do against a hundred angry rioters? Please enlighten us with your obviously superior tactical wisdom on how such odds could be tackled!
  • cloakanddagger
    Democracy?: what happened when a million people marched against Iraq? Nothing. I always felt that was the beginning of something dangerous in the country . When a million people do not get listened to expect other measures of being listened to happening in the future....
  • cornishclio
    I am puzzled as to why these 15 and 16 year olds were not in school? What sort of kids do you hang out with to express the view that they lash out when angry? Only inarticulate people without self control lash out rather than reasoned argument. I am pretty sure neither of my children would have resorted to such mindless behaviour and we should not be encouraging or sanctioning it. 15 or 16 year olds who committ destructive vandalism acts go on to do much worse. Their age is no excuse.
  • peterhayes
    If a police offer or protester was lying on a slab you think things would be better?
  • tigerfish
    Thanks - in addition we should ask ourselves how cheap are these resources when we take into account the military expenditures required to obtain them on the 'cheap'. For example - the estimated $4 trillion wasted on Bush's oil wars needs to added to the pump price of gasoline before Americans can congratulate themselves on having cheap gas.
  • peterhayes
    A chance for a few soft heads to have a good time or receive a criminal record. It is an office- nothing more. Desk, chairs, computers. They will rebuild or move. Everyone's increased insurance premiums will pay for it in the end. Well probably not yours because you likely still live with your parents.
  • cornishclio
    Are you a student or have you been near a university recently? Some students are hard working, conscientious and are studying for a better future. Some do not hand in assignments, do not turn up for lectures before 11am because they cannot get out of bed, cause problems in freshers week through misuse of alcohol and some universities are dens of iniquity with drugs and general anarchy as some were displaying yesterday. Result from another of Blair's hypocritical desire to massage unemployment by diverting upto 50% school leavers to university. Trouble was he didn't realise someone would need to pay the bills one day.
  • a_no_n
    Yeah because that really worked when the war was protested against...
  • oscarweird
    You really shouldn't talk about bankers like that.
  • yep we need a National ID card, catch all the layabouts and make them pay their way
  • yep that was a nice car, pity we don't see them anymore
  • Interesting? It's apalling
  • so don't undertake any reforms because the wreckers might wake up from their welfare coma?
  • So life stopped at what 35? Loser
  • so now "consensus" is controlled and defined by the violent actions of a few scruffy welfare-addicted layabouts? Give me a break
  • Halfassedmonkeyboy
    Were you there? Have you experienced how terrifying it is to be in a crowd of that size when it gets out of control? The peaceful part of the was indeed something to be proud of but the scenes at Tory HQ were a step too far. People were hurt! At least one police officer was about two feet from death when that fire extinguisher came down from the roof. Protest by all means but don't ever risk the life of a single person, whichever side they may be on.
  • frebastulous
    With policies like theirs, the Tory party are unwise to have their HQ in a prominent office block at a known address in central London. I am sure they would feel more secure in a secret underground bunker complex guarded by machine gun towers.
  • As education is a devolved issue in Scotland, it is up to the Scottish government to decide how spending is prioritised. As Scotlands greatest resource has always been her people, free education has always been a priority. Unfortunately this is not the case in England as voters clearly do not see education as important an investment.
  • oscarweird
    NSU 6/18 PS Doppelphaeton 1913 was my favorite. I think you mean BMC, not BNP. In 2002, BMC (Turkey), a Turkish commercial vehicle builder, originally set up by the British Motor Corporation to build their designs under licence in the 1950s, began exporting its vehicles to Britain. This saw the return of the BMC brand to British roads for the first time in over 40 years. Yes, we still have the BMC here in Turkey. It is so nice to see someone who shares my interest in 1960s motoring.
  • oscarweird
    NSU - ah, there was a car. If only they were still manufactured, life would be so much better. Nice work, Tud, to remind us of the glorious motoring days of old. As for imports, I don't think there is a link between the army and economic policy. I think they are a little preoccupied just now. If you are going back to the bar, I'll have a coke.
  • Nick Clegg, who seems to have no backbone, completely destroyed any political career he would have had after this disastrous alliance with the Tory's. But....anyone with a brain could see that months ago. We could also see what putting the Tories back in power would do. Yet more help for the rich to the detriment of the middle class and poor. It happens every time, so I never understand why people continue voting for them - not unless they have a spare few million in the bank - as that's the only way having a Tory government will help you.
  • I'm sorry Tud but if you made any valid arguments in your post they were completely rubbished the moment you claimed David Milliband was a smart person.
  • Tud
    This time NSU you faced kindly police.
    Next time NSU-BNP-Labour you may have to face real fighters from our army if that is needed to bring control to you imports/
    See how you will fare then!
  • Tud
    Kicking in the window made it all worthwhile- a great picture demonstrating the scum of the NSU-BNP-Labour Coalition. REAL Uni Students should appreciate that the NSU has and always shall be a leftist supporter of the now Ed Milliband group. Thank God David Milliband is out of it as he has brains!
  • The Coalition was warned several times that they were playing with fire... alas, the ones in power are always the last ones to listen to common sense... especially when their ideology comes in the way of their ability to think...
  • To be honest it is interesting to observe the policeman standing idily behind the ranks of photographers, fim crews and reporters in the picture above, as the hooded gentleman kicks in the window.
  • Ambricourt
    Who owns this building with the "astronomical rents"? How wonderful that the Conservative Party can afford what is beyond the means, or inclination, of both the United nations and New Labour. But how contradictory that the Party must claim Britain can't afford to subsidize education.
  • VivaLaRevolution
    Well done at last. Now the Students have been stuffed by the coalition, they are showing them it is no longer going to be so easy. If politicians were not such cowards they would not be letting the police do their dirty work for them. They would be coming and stating why they think these proposals are right. But Cowards do not work like that. Every Lib Dem who signed the pledge should resign in shame. But help is at hand... see above
  • Herbolzheim
    English student protests The students should have targeted the Lib Dem HQ rather than the Tory one. The Lib Dems have gone against a central plank of their manifesto - not to increase tuition fees in England - and should be ashamed of themselves. They could have said "no" to a coalition unless this commitment was kept. As is the case in comparative countries like Germany and France, if young people do well in their school exams university should be free of charge to them. If taxes for the wealthy need to go up a bit to pay for it, so be it. 50% should be the rate for those earning over £150k a year. Maybe we could also throw in an aircraft carrier as well (France has aircraft carriers). A final point is that having different arrangements for Scotland is divisive and unfair as long as their is a central UK tax regime. Lloyd Lewzey east London
  • VivaLaRevolution
    I forgot to mention that the police and secret services will have agents in the field on the marches. agents provocateurs They are called, as they could not have a peaceful demo, could they. But that is a good thing as at least we can be seen to be as passionate as the Greeks, Spanish and French now. Well done students Because it is Your Future that is important. Not the cowards in the coalition. They have had their future and we are living in it. Now they know at last, now matter what they say, no matter how they spin, It is not going to be easy. They have been Told.
  • spiritofxxx
    Do the students realise what they are wishing for? Government by Mob Rule! The majority of the people in this country will have been appalled by the violence. If you can not win the arguement by reason then you resort to bully boy tactics. This will I'm sure backfire on the students. By all means protest, by all means have marches but in the end if violence is your only answer if you fail to win you'll find that others can be even more violent than you.
  • Herbolzheim
    English student protests The students should have targeted the Lib Dem HQ rather than the Tory one. The Lib Dems have gone against a central plank of their manifesto - not to increase tuition fees in England - and should be ashamed of themselves. They could have said "no" to a coalition unless this commitment was kept. As is the case in comparative countries like Germany and France, if young people do well in their school exams university should be free of charge to them. If taxes for the wealthy need to go up a bit to pay for it, so be it. 50% should be the rate for those earning over £150k a year. Maybe we could also throw in an aircraft carrier as well (France has aircraft carriers). A final point is that having different arrangements for Scotland is divisive and unfair as long as their is a central UK tax regime. Lloyd Lewzey east London
  • politicalone
    There were tens of thousands of peaceful students and a hundred or so trouble makers - some tooled up for trouble. A great pity for us as it is a gift to lazy journos for whom the story becomes 'violence'. The real story is that we are being lied to and manipulated by the most cynical government in decades! The cuts are POLITICAL CHOICES not inevitable accountancy. The day the new scheme was announced Cameron boasted that the UK will have the lowest corporation tax in the world. How is that "fair". The ideological re-definition of 'fairness' is shameful.
  • VivaLaRevolution
    Help is at Hand. THe First Course to charge the Full Fee will be the MP BA course. It lasts 5 years and is a prerequisite to being placed on any parliamentary constituency list. The £9,000 must be paid in cash at the beginning of each academic year. On being elected an MP Every MP must pay, out of their MP income, without claiming back as expenses, a yearly Fee of £9,000 a year to be paid towards the education departments budget.
  • VivaLaRevolution
    This is to be paid in respect as well, due to the ringfencing of MPs wages and expenses that has ocurred during the 'Cuts' that have affected everyone in the land EXCEPT the very MPs making the 'Cuts' And no-one is allowed to mention this LACK of Budget reduction from the £455 MILLION Parliamentary budget.
  • Brilliant. Never have I been more proud of my own generation. I don't think it will do a damn thing but the government doesn't listen to peaceful opposition. It was the only way to make ourselves heard.

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