Post-US Iraq: Welcome to Shia-stan

Saddam's Iraq is gone, but in its place is a state with close ties to one of America's biggest and most unpredictable enemies: Iran. NBC's Richard Engel has been covering the war from the start, and went back for this historic week to take a closer look at the Iran connection.

ANALYSIS
 
BAGHDAD – It was a cold night in Baghdad. I was standing on the roof of Saddam’s information ministry listening to a televised speech by President George W. Bush. He gave Saddam Hussein and his sons 48 hours to leave, or else.

I remember the chills that went down my legs, as if I was bracing myself for an impact. A big war was coming. The American military machine had risen and was ready. 

This past Monday, on another cold night in Baghdad, I listened as President Barack Obama said the war is ending. Troops are leaving. This war is wrapping up. I had those chills again, but on this night, it was just from the cold.  


Hadi Mizban / AP

Children play next to Shiite posters and flags in the primarily Shiite neighborhood of Hurriyah in north Baghdad on Nov. 15, 2011. The number of Iraqi neighborhoods in which members of the two Muslim sects live side-by-side and intermarry has dwindled.

So much has changed since the war began. So many U.S. troops have made this the mission of their lives. Nearly 4,500 of them died in a war launched to find weapons of mass destruction that didn’t exist and to topple a dictator who had nothing to do with 9/11 or Osama Bin Laden, even though that’s how it was sold. 

Saddam was brutal. He had no regard for the lives of his people. He buried his enemies in mass graves. Stalin was his hero. Saddam’s son, Uday Hussein, was evil, psychotic and, by many accounts, a rapist. But Iraqis have lived through absolute hell during the war – an estimated 150,000 of them have died, mostly at the hands of other Iraqis, according to some Iraqi government estimates. 

 
Regardless of President Bush’s intent in waging this war, what it wound up doing is replacing a dictator with a Shiite-run state that is close to Iran. This could not have been the plan.
 
Welcome to Shia-stan.

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Shiite revenge
On April 9, 2003, as a few hundred Iraqis pulled down a statue of Saddam Hussein, the crowds weren’t cheering for America. They were shouting the name al-Sadr, a Shiite cleric killed by Saddam. Pulling down Saddam’s statue was vengeance for al-Sadr’s murder. It was Shiite revenge. Saddam was a Sunni. Sunnis are a minority in Iraq, yet they had ruled the country for over a thousand years. 
 
When Saddam was hanged in December 2006, one of his executioners yelled the name “Muqtada,” in his ear moments before the dictator dropped through a trap door and a noose stretched his neck.  Muqtada is al-Sadr’s son. He is a radical anti-American Shiite cleric. Saddam’s execution – carried out on the day Sunnis were celebrating one of the year’s most important holidays – was more Shiite revenge.
 
When Iraq held its first elections, Shiite political parties won. 

After nearly nine years and 4,500 American lives lost, President Obama and the first lady officially marked the end of the Iraq war Wednesday. NBC's Kristen Welker has more.

Now, as American troops leave Iraq after almost nine years of patrols, IEDs and countless meetings with tribal elders, it is abundantly clear that the Shiites have won this country.
 
Haifa Street in Baghdad has long been a Sunni stronghold. It was once considered the most dangerous street in the world. Snipers from al-Qaida in Iraq – a Sunni militant group – would fire on U.S. troops from Haifa Street’s tall buildings during the height of sectarian violence in 2006- 2007. Al-Qaida’s all black flag hung from some of the windows. 

A few days ago, I was back on Haifa Street to meet officials at the High Council for Tourism. The black al-Qaida flags are gone. Instead I saw dozens of pictures of Muqtada al-Sadr and green Shiite flags. Outside the building, there were more Shiite flags and pictures of the Shiite martyr Hussein. 

  • PhotoBlog: Troops head for home
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    I was at the tourism office to find out who is coming to Iraq and what they are coming to see.

    It’s an especially holy month for Shiites, the month that marks Hussein's martyrdom in the 7th century. The country does have ancient sites, including Babylon and the Ziggurat of Ur – so perhaps they are a lure for tourists? But more tourists are coming to visit Iraq's Shiite religious sites.

    The tourism official is like most government officials in Baghdad these days.  He’s a religious Shiite from one of the many Shiite political parties. He served our TV crew sweet tea in small hourglass shaped cups. 

    Ahmad Al-Rubaye / AFP - Getty Images

    Iraqi Muslim Shiites hit themselves with swords during Ashura rituals in Baghdad's Sadr City on Dec. 6, 2011. Ashura mourns the death of Imam Hussein, a grandson of the Prophet Mohammed.

    When I looked closely, I noticed three words were engraved on the cups: Allah, Mohammed and Ali. Including the name Ali, Mohammed’s son-in-law, has only one meaning. Ali is the patron of all Shiites. These were Shiite cups.  Even the tea at the tourism authority was being served in Shiite cups. 

    Several Sunnis at the tourism authority have recently been fired, they believe because they are Sunnis. Iraqi Shiites are clearly not shy about showing off their newfound power.
     
    I asked the official who is visiting Iraq these days. Under Saddam, it was nearly impossible to travel to Iraq. And Iraqis, if they were allowed to leave, had to drive to Syria or Jordan to catch most international flights. Baghdad simply wasn’t connected to the world. 

    Now there are direct flights here from Turkey, Sweden, Austria, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates, among other countries. There are no direct flights to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, both Sunni states that have been critical of Iraq’s Shiite government. There are no direct flights to the United States.  But there are now on many days more than a dozen flights to Iran. 

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    Officials at the tourism authority told me that they registered more than 1.5 million Iranian visitors to Iraq in 2010, up 25 percent from the year before. This year they expect the figure to rise to 1.75 million. The official stressed that the tourism authority only registers Iranians coming to Iraq in organized tour groups, but many more Iranians come on their own.

    Iranians are issued visas when they arrive at Baghdad International Airport. They can also land at the new international airport in the Holy Shiite city of Najaf and quickly get a visa on site. American citizens have to apply for visas in advance and they usually take three weeks to process.
     
    When I landed at the airport in Baghdad on this visit, I had to wait about 15 minutes while my visa was verified. It’s a standard procedure. For years, I’ve seen this arrival hall packed with the oddest cluster of misfits imaginable. There were beefy American contractors in baseball caps, cargo pants and with badges around their necks. I’ve seen Americans arriving in Baghdad with big silver belt buckles and cowboy hats, too.  There were often British security contractors with tight t-shirts and Oakley sunglasses perched on top of gelled crew cuts. There were also small armies of sub-Saharan Africans hired to man American checkpoints and guide bomb-sniffing dogs.  And there were journalists with leather satchels, checkered scarves and long hair (usually the photographers).  

    This time, nearly every person in the arrival hall was from Iran.  From the badges hanging around their necks, it was clear they were on tours to visit Iraq’s holy Shiite shrines in Najaf, Karbala, Baghdad and Samaraa.  The Iranian tour guides wore fedora hats.
     
    So Iranians are coming in huge numbers. It doesn’t mean that Iran is taking over. Iran is, after all, Iraq’s neighbor, and Iraq can use the tourist dollars. But it certainly does show the direction Iraq is leaning and with whom Iraqis are connecting.

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    Related link: A growing Iranian threat, in wake of U.S. military withdrawal from Iraq this month

    Green Shiite flag city
    For most of the nearly six years I lived and worked in Iraq, our bureau was in the Jadiriya neighborhood. It is a relatively upscale part of Baghdad with clothing stores, a supermarket and a decent ice cream parlor. There were many bombings in Jadiriya, but compared to other areas, Jadiriya was relatively peaceful. Jadiriya was always a Shiite neighborhood, but there were Sunnis and Christians mixed in too.  Now the Sunnis and Christians are invisible. These days, there are more green Shiite flags in Jadiriya than I’ve ever seen.
     
    About 65 percent of Iraqis are Shiite. If people want to express their religion, it is certainly their right. Americans couldn’t prevent it even if they wanted to.  But in Iraq, hanging flags isn’t a sign of religious celebration. It is a way to mark territory. It is a way to show dominance, like Marines landing on a beach and raising a flag to say: this is mine.
     
    South of Jadiriya is the neighborhood of Dora.  Dora has long been a Sunni area, with some Shiites and Christians. The Christians and Shiites have now mostly moved out. They were driven away by al-Qaida in Iraq or opportunists who used the terrorist group to scare away their neighbors so they could buy their houses on the cheap.  If you were a Sunni in a neighborhood like Dora and you wanted your neighbor’s house, and your neighbor happened to be a Shiite or a Christian, all you had to do was slip a threatening note under his door and sign it “al-Qaida in
    Iraq.”  The neighbor would usually accept any price for the house that was offered. 

    Ali Abbas / EPA

    Iraqi actors perform the epic of Imam Hussein, as part of the Ashura festivals in Baghdad, Iraq, on Dec. 6, 2011. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Shiites visited the holy city of Kerbala throughout the Ashura week to mark the death of Imam Hussein, grandson of Prophet Mohammad.

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    War does ugly things to people. Greed and hate and cynicism bubble up to the surface.  I drove past Dora the other day.  I noticed a new set of houses being built nearby. The houses are still under construction, but on each one was a green Shiite flag and a picture of the Shiite Martyr Hussein. Some Shiite developers have obviously decided to encroach on Dora. They’re moving in. It’s a Shiite settlement. 
     
    As I drove on from Dora, I kept thinking, sectarian violence is going to blow up in Iraq again. Many Sunnis feel they have no future in the country. 

    Related link: Iraqi voices weigh in on the U.S. withdrawal

    Cozy relationship will have U.S. national security consequences
    But, cynically, does anyone outside of Iraq care anymore? My friends in the United States have long stopped asking me about Iraq. They don’t want to hear about it.

    Friends used to like it when I would draw maps on cocktail napkins to show how Sunnis and Shiites are divided and how Iran moves in supplies to help Shiite militias. Now no one wants to see my maps. Most people seem to think if Iraqis want to kill each other, it’s their problem. 
     
    Aside from the cost of this war in blood and money to the United States, a Shiite-led, Iran-friendly Iraq could have major consequences for American national security. 

    Saddam Hussein was a secular Sunni dictator. He despised Iran. Saddam fought a war with Iran in the 1980s in which each side lost a half million men. Saddam let the world think he had nuclear weapons to keep Iran in check.

    How times have changed. Iran now has both a close ally in Iraq and a key trading partner. Just look at the taxis in Iraq, which used to be old Volkswagen Passats manufactured in Brazil. Now, many of the yellow taxis choking Baghdad with traffic are boxy Iranian-made Saipas.  Iran is building an oil pipeline to Iraq, too.

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    The United States wants to punish Iran economically using sanctions so it abandons its nuclear program. But the United States has created economic opportunities for Iran in Iraq, and that could help undermine the sanctions.

    Iraq has a long 900 mile border with Iran, and many Iraqi border guards are either corrupt or are sympathetic to Iran. That’s proven every day by the illegal drugs smuggled across the Iran-Iraq border, according to the International Narcotics Control Board, the independent monitoring body associated with the United Nations. If drugs can go across, so can materials banned under the sanctions. 

    America’s efforts to strangle Iran with sanctions could end up being undermined by the very nation the United States went to such great efforts to create. 
     
    Iraq is not an Iranian pawn. It is an independent and patriotic country. And some day, due to all its oil, it may be a very rich country, as well. The United States, despite the huge cost of this war can and probably will make money here eventually. Still, history may not be kind to this project. 

    Iraq has become a Shiite-led state that feels a certain affinity to Iran, its giant Shiite neighbor. It is hard to imagine any of this was part of the plan when President Bush gave Saddam Hussein 48 hours to leave on that cold night in Baghdad.
     
    Richard Engel, NBC News Chief Correspondent, has covered Iraq since the initial U.S. invasion in March 2003. He is the author of two books on Iraq: "A Fist in the Hornet's Nest" and "War Journal: My Five Years in Iraq."

    See more of his reporting on the U.S. withdrawal from Iraq on the Nightly News with Brian Williams Wednesday.

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    Related link: Photo Blog: Iraqi voices: Patchwork electrical grid a symbol of country's disconnects

     

     

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    Discuss this post

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    Can't say I care. We're out of there, let them all kill each other.

    • 79 votes
    #1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:57 AM EST

    I agree with you--- glad we are out of that sand box.

    To bad our news coverage will not show the blood bath that is comming all to soon there. A three way fight with IRAN supporting the SHIITE . Turkey may step in to clean out the KURDS .

    • 29 votes
    #1.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:31 AM EST

    When will we learn that there is one insurmountable problem in this area and it will never be resolved and that is ISLAM it is an intolerant and brutal ideology and the smartest thing we can do is seperate ourselves from it's brainwashed followers!

    • 94 votes
    #1.2 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:57 AM EST

    When will we learn that there is one insurmountable problem in this area and it will never be resolved and that is RELIGION it is an intolerant and brutal ideology and the smartest thing we can do is seperate ourselves from it's brainwashed followers!

    • 154 votes
    #1.3 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:18 AM EST

    Four thousand, five hundred soldiers' families care.

    We should never have been there in the first place, and now people say "Can't say I care". There's a hundred and fifty thousand Iraqis dead that did not need to be. No matter how brutal Hussein was, we destroyed that country and caused the deaths of many, and now we just can't be bothered to care.

    We spent our soldiers' blood for nothing and just don't even give a damn.

    • 112 votes
    #1.4 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:33 AM EST
    Comment author avatarJeff P-14Restored

    The only thing Bush wanted from Iraq was to do what his daddy couldn't.

    • 109 votes
    #1.5 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:36 AM EST

    Bush doesnt care about Iraqis. He just wanted his Halliburton investment to pay off.

    • 111 votes
    #1.6 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:36 AM EST

    When your country is not "sterling" nation building in another country, by you is absurd.

    Bush should have stay away from Iraq period and everyone knows this....Bush F-up big time!

    • 78 votes
    #1.7 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:40 AM EST

    When will we learn that there is one insurmountable problem in this area and it will never be resolved and that is STUPIDITY AND BLINDNESS it is an intolerant and brutal ideology and the smartest thing we can do is seperate ourselves from it's brainwashed followers!

    • 16 votes
    #1.8 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:40 AM EST

    It pains me to see people labeling all Muslims as radicals. True Islam, like all mainstream religions, actually preaches peace. However, like many mainstream religions, it has radicals which preach intolerance and call for the "cleansing" of infidels. This isn't confined to Islam. Look at the Crusades. Look at the Inquisitions.

    Religious wars are hardly the work of one religion. Please don't let radicals trick you into labeling an entire religion as "brutal". That's how racism starts.

    • 59 votes
    #1.9 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:48 AM EST

    This isn't a matter of "them killing each other with no other consequences." Think a little further up the road. Iran and Iraq with nuclear weapons and the wherewithall to get those weapons wherever they want them. Also, we need to get our 'power supplies' from a different area of the world like our own discovery of a power source that doesn't require oil. We need to NOT DEPEND ON DOING BUSINESS WITH THEM EVER. It won't hurt them but it sure won't hurt us either by not letting them hold us hostage due to a product we get from them. We need to find another power source than oil. Let us develop our own 'motor of the world'. We need to find and support all the John Galts of the country. And your question is: Who is John Galt?

    • 13 votes
    #1.10 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:49 AM EST

    Yeah, PeaceLover, Christians NEVER made war on each other and killed each other over religious differences... *sarcasm*

    • 44 votes
    #1.11 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:50 AM EST
    Comment author avatartonie-80015Expand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

    Yeah MSNBC, continue the spin Bush invaded Iraq because WMD, in reality he was surrounded by neocons who wanted Iraq weakened so Israel could be safe. Sham history revisionists, this was a war for Israels sake , Bush is a hero to Israel. Damn lies!

    • 20 votes
    #1.12 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:53 AM EST

    i agree.. let them kill each other then we will not have to worry about islam and their primitive thinking..

    • 8 votes
    #1.13 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:54 AM EST

    Cyclometh

    Four thousand, five hundred soldiers' families care.

    We should never have been there in the first place, and now people say "Can't say I care". There's a hundred and fifty thousand Iraqis dead that did not need to be. No matter how brutal Hussein was, we destroyed that country and caused the deaths of many, and now we just can't be bothered to care.

    We spent our soldiers' blood for nothing and just don't even give a damn

    Well said.

    • 32 votes
    #1.14 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:57 AM EST

    peacelover, it sounds like you are brainwashed repeating what you hear without thinking. I am with you "we can do it" but I would add to your sentence " ALL religion fanatics" ...

    • 12 votes
    #1.15 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:57 AM EST

    Let freedom "reign".

    • 1 vote
    #1.16 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:57 AM EST

    They can't be all bad, after all they have Muhammed Ali on coffee cups.

    • 6 votes
    #1.17 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:58 AM EST
    Comment author avatarPatriotic American U.S.A.Expand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

    Thanks "W" This guy lied to Congress to get us into Iraq, Two unfunded wars dumped on Obama. Now its all going on a Chinese Credit Card. This "W" and the GOP T-Retards destroyed this Country. Wake up America.

    • 81 votes
    #1.18 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:58 AM EST

    It pains me to see people labeling all Muslims as radicals. True Islam, like all mainstream religions, actually preaches peace. However, like many mainstream religions, it has radicals which preach intolerance and call for the "cleansing" of infidels. This isn't confined to Islam. Look at the Crusades. Look at the Inquisitions.

    Religious wars are hardly the work of one religion. Please don't let radicals trick you into labeling an entire religion as "brutal". That's how racism starts.

    What pains me is the "peaceful" aspect of the religion does absolutely nothing to police itself of the radical element, yet expects everyone else to be tolerant.

    • 39 votes
    #1.19 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:59 AM EST

    The new name, @!$%#istan, is OK with me.

    • 6 votes
    #1.20 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:01 PM EST

    @Karoke Jesus: There are quite a few Muslims in the USA that condemn actions carried out by radicals. Their voices are just drowned out.

    • 19 votes
    #1.21 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:03 PM EST

    Pedestrian in SF

    Your posting name pretty much explains your attitude.

    Beyond your anti-religion stance, we are abandoning Iraq after all the cost due to failed diplomacy of this administration and leaving behind a "presence" and continued contributions to "re-build" thier military. When this new @!$%#e nations joins thier brother @!$%#e nation of Iran with our weapons, we'll see what the result is of our wasted lives and money.

    • 4 votes
    #1.22 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:11 PM EST

    John Galt was an egocentric narsicist who had more greed than wisdom.

    Adam Smith would have barfed all over "Atlas Shrugged"

    Go read Wealth of Nations. Look at what Adam Smith says about Capitalism. Specifically, see what he says about the wealthy. The Wealthy should pay a larger share of their income to taxes, as they benefit more from government infrastructure.

    Smart, but an idiot.

    • 19 votes
    #1.23 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:13 PM EST

    Guess again tony. We just paved the way for Iran and Iraq to join forces. Iraq is sitting on God only knows how much $$$ worth of oil, Iran is quite modern. You think for one second that we (meaning the US) won't be bothered again with the mess and monster we created by swinging the door wide open and inviting Iran to become BFF's with Iraq? You are indeed a fool if you can't see the forest for the trees. We just made one colossal strategic error. That is putting it nicely.

    • 11 votes
    #1.24 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 PM EST
    Comment author avatarShaking my head-2479300Expand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

    Patriotic American U.S.A.

    If you were an example of an American Patriot, we would be in deep trouble. The claim of a name, like many posting for Obama, proves nothing except deception.

    • 13 votes
    #1.25 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:17 PM EST

    Ruken,

    By what? The other 99% of USmuslims who were cheering?

    • 7 votes
    #1.26 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:21 PM EST
    Comment author avatarkpokeefeExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

    Two unfunded wars dumped on Obama

    I love the stupidity of this comment... Has there ever been a funded war in the nation's history??? HELL NO! The reason we have a single standard US currency is because the individual states couldn't pay for the Revolutionary War with their own state issued currencies. Of course during the Civil War, WWI and WWII the US didn't have cash on hand to fund the wars... So, they sold WAR BONDS... YES, YES...I promise to pay you x plus amount (this is really the formula for printing money) for you donating x today... Since WWII we just have added wars to the national debt.

    Let's see how many wars Democrats v Republicans we can dig up...Oh yes, here it is:

    A list of who was president when the US became involved or declared war

    James K Polk

    Democrat - Mexican-American war

    Abraham Lincoln

    Republican Civil War

    Woodrow Wilson

    Democrat - Mexican Revolution

    Woodrow Wilson

    Democrat - World War 1

    Franklin D. Roosevelt

    World War 2 - Democrat

    Harry S Truman

    Korean War - Democrat

    John F Kennedy

    Vietnam War - Democrat

    George H. W. Bush

    Gulf War 1 - Republican

    George W. Bush

    Afghanistan/Iraq - Republican

    Boy, I see alot of "D" words here...But never fear...Give it a few years with all our revisionism and those "D's" will certainly become "R's"!!!

    • 26 votes
    #1.27 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:24 PM EST

    Burying my head, I see alot more people agreed with him than you.

    • 2 votes
    #1.28 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:25 PM EST

    Some of the quotes in the article are beyond belief......

    and many Iraqi border guards are either corrupt or are sympathetic to Iran. That’s proven every day by the illegal drugs smuggled across the Iran-Iraq border, according to the International Narcotics Control Board, the independent monitoring body associated with the United Nations. If drugs can go across, so can materials banned under the sanctions. ...........does that mean that US border guards are either corrupt or sympathetic to Mexico? Does this mean "banned materials" can also go across the border?

    We pissed away 1 trillion, killed 4500 of our own, maimed 30,000 more of our own.... to accomplish nothing. Where was the press during this 2nd Vietnam? Where were the anti war protesters?

    And every one of the republican candidates except the one the press won't talk about, wants even more war machine

    • 22 votes
    #1.29 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:38 PM EST

    As a vet of the Iraq War, this is no surprise. As one whose job was to educate deployed staff about the culture of pre-invasion Iraq, this is common knowledge. What should upset people was that the Bush Administration ALSO knew all of this. They KNEW the outcomes (i.e. a Shia controlled Iraq). They didn't care! What the Bush Administration wanted was an American presence in an oil rich middle eastern country! And guess what? We have the largest American Embassy in the world in the heart of Baghdad! And, we have thousands of contractors in their oil fields. Win, win.

    What Bush and company did NOT anticipate was the longevity of the war. They had prepared for a 6 week to two month war paid by Iraq oil revenues. The Sunni/Al-Qiada uprising was NOT in their post war plan. Ooops!!! Oh well, so the war cost us 1-2 TRILLION dollars and 4,500 plus lives lost and tens of thousands wounded.....it just took longer and cost more. Nonetheless, the Bush Administration won, they got their presence (see Project for A New American Century for details) in the middle east and they got their hands on the oil.....oh, as an added bonus, they got to push through billions in no-bid contracts! War is always a cash cow for a few.

    So, Thanks, Mr. Engel, for your work and analysis. Again, a no-brainer, but at least it is coming from another who has been there and not some Fox News pundit or stooge from Congress who continue to spew out garbage from their mouths.

    • 43 votes
    #1.30 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:43 PM EST

    Cyclometh- Not caring about wth they all do to each other now does NOT equal not caring about servicemen and women.

    • 3 votes
    #1.31 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:48 PM EST

    I agree it would be nice to be separate and take care of our own people but the world does not work that way. Example 9-11 and all the other attacks on America. Saddam was just like Hitler and if he was not stopped there is no telling what other countries he might have invaded besides Kuwait. The article states that Al Qaida was in Iraq just like all other Muslim countries. I believe the muslin countries blame Al Qaida so that the US will not come after them. I remember seeing a lot of coverage of celebration's on 9-11 coming from all the Muslin countries and how soon we forget!!

    • 6 votes
    #1.32 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:55 PM EST

    Lets play the blame game. Because Pres. Bush had ultimate foresight into everything and knew exactly how this would all turn out. Looking back and getting angry doesn't solve anything. The reason we struggled in Iraq is because the radical fundamental Shiites didn't want us there. Well, we're gone now. Just when our troops were getting the country under control, Pres. Obama hands it over to the fundamentalist on a silver platter. I guess most Americans don't have the stomach to fight fanatical fundamentalism. So lets just walk away and ignore them, and pray they don't attack us here on our soil....

    • 11 votes
    #1.33 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:59 PM EST

    Richard Engel is a patsy

    • 1 vote
    #1.34 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:03 PM EST

    Agree with Karaoke Jesus. IT would really help so many inter-societal problems and international problems if the Muslims could find a way to crack down on the radicals who operate in an among the main population. We once had Preachers in some of our churches preach hate, support for the KKK . It took almost a hundred years to shut that group down to the level it is today - very, very small. so the Muslims have a model, many in world history actually. They could do it if they wish.

    • 5 votes
    #1.35 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:04 PM EST

    Karaoke Jesus

    What pains me is the "peaceful" aspect of the religion does absolutely nothing to police itself of the radical element, yet expects everyone else to be tolerant.

    First and foremost, it doesn't take much looking around to find public condemnation of violence in the name of Allah by Muslims.

    Regardless, your ridiculous line of logic dictates that the Pope should be brought up on pedophilia charges, then. Agreed?

    • 6 votes
    #1.36 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:04 PM EST

    When will we learn that there is one insurmountable problem in this area and it will never be resolved and that is RELIGION it is an intolerant and brutal ideology and the smartest thing we can do is seperate ourselves from it's brainwashed followers!

    Those of you who like to lump the peaceful religions of the world in with Islam and condemn them all are brain dead and can't (or won't) see reality. Islam is the ONLY major religion left in the world that preaches violence to it's followers and has a plan for world domination. Religion is not the problem. Fundamentalist Islam is the problem.

    • 11 votes
    #1.37 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:04 PM EST

    @Patriotic American USA
    Do you Remember 911? Somebody was going to get an ass whooping and nobody gave a flying f-ck about how that ass whooping was going to be paid for. All the same intelligence agencies that are confirming Iran's Nuclear ambitions for Obama are the same ones who told the Bush administration about Sadam's nuclear ambitions and other WMDs. The fact that Saddam had large hordes of WMDs that he used to murder entire Kurdish villages does not mean anything to you freaking geniuses on the left. You leftist scum are so brain washed it's pathetic. You want to bad mouth Fox News by calling it Faux News and you also claim that the right is perpetually misinformed by Fox. That's really rich considering MSNBC was formed in a partnership between Microsoft & GE. You know GE right, the corporation that paid ZERO taxes but who's CEO is not only Obama's golf buddy but also his jobs Czar. Oh, and he is a 1%-ER. The hypocrisy of you, liberals & progressives is only trumped by your lies. Goodbye Obama 2012.

    • 20 votes
    #1.38 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:05 PM EST

    What pains me is the "peaceful" aspect of the religion does absolutely nothing to police itself of the radical element, yet expects everyone else to be tolerant.

    Isn't that kind of the point? How is a peaceful aspect going to police someone with arms? No one expects you to be tolerant of radical Islam, and in fact, there is patriotic no American who IS tolerant of radical Islam.

    By the same token, no patriotic or rational American should have a problem with peaceful Christianity. This is pretty much true of all religions. Extremism is a threat to peace.

    • 5 votes
    #1.39 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:06 PM EST

    This is truly a great piece, Richard Engel is a very good journalist, especially in the middle east. However he has the name of this new country wrong, the real name should be Bushcheneystan. There are the idiots that created it. I'm not sure if this mission will ever be accomplished!!

    • 8 votes
    #1.40 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:09 PM EST

    To those who attack President Bush, let me explain that in 1998, Saddam kicked out the UN observers at the different WMD sites for production of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. President Clinton wanted to invade Iraq then because of the threats implied as well as for Saddam's violation of UN resolutions. He sent Gen. Powell and Madeleine Albright to sound out Americans in various public forums and tried to convince the French, Russian, and Chinese governments who were doing business with Iraq to back a war against Saddam, but the US public could see no benefit and the Big Three wanted business with Saddam, so Clinton had to scrap plans. After 9/11, US, UK, and Israeli intelligence all said it was probable that Saddam had WMD, a conclusion reinforced by high-level deserters from Saddam's regime and by Iraqi opposition leaders in exile. After the Anthrax scares there was fear that any terrorists could be furnished WMD by Saddam, and suspicion fell on the Al-Zarqawi group, suspected to have ties with Al-Qaida, which later resulted to be true. Since the same big three were against UN action against Iraq, Bush felt it was imperative to invade without the UN back that Tony Blair hoped for. The Article clearly says the Saddam cultivated the impression and fear of his having WMD to keep Iran in line. The 150,000 Iraqi deaths was mainly, as the article says, the result of Iraqis and Al-Zarqawi terrorists killing each other. The nearly 4,500 US death in nine years is very sad, but in a war declared with Congressional backing, it compares well to some 36,000 US dead in Korea in three years in a war waged by President Truman , in a so-called "Police Action" that UN backing,since the Soviet Union abstained from the sessions. The War in Afghanistan had both UN and Congressional backing for President Bush's action.

    • 19 votes
    #1.41 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:11 PM EST

    Those of you who like to lump the peaceful religions of the world in with Islam and condemn them all are brain dead and can't (or won't) see reality. Islam is the ONLY major religion left in the world that preaches violence to it's followers and has a plan for world domination. Religion is not the problem. Fundamentalist Islam is the problem.

    Exactly right. ALL OTHER religious groups have adapted to the modern age. But you'll NEVER get the libbie Islamist sympathizers to admit that.

    • 7 votes
    #1.42 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:18 PM EST

    This is the result of going to war without doing your homework. We just gave Iraq to Iran on a silver plate.

    • 7 votes
    #1.43 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:24 PM EST

    GeorgeLC....Did you just post historical facts ???.....Shame on you !!!!...You're supposed to stick with rumor and innuendo on here....and revisions from the blogosphere....

    • 11 votes
    #1.44 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:25 PM EST

    tonie - How would weakening iraq have helped israel. Iran is theri big threat. Yes there were some huge mistakes make by the Bush administration but to say that it's revisionist history to say they were hoping to find wmd's is silly. There were plety of motives some decent other just plain corrupt but iraq was not a threat to israel. Maybe iran, syria, or palestine but hussein was a dictator who was most concerned about suppressing his own people.

    • 1 vote
    #1.45 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:25 PM EST

    Hell ... the GOP has problems with Romney because he's a Mormon ... AND ... maybe he cares a little about peoples health!!!

    AND ... if you ask any FOOL here ... Iraq ... along with the dismal economy ... is Obama's fault!!!!

    • 3 votes
    #1.46 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:26 PM EST

    david ... I guess you don't remember Hussein shooting rockets at Israel ... hmmmm

    • 4 votes
    #1.47 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:29 PM EST

    Bruce-308647

    Those of you who like to lump the peaceful religions of the world in with Islam and condemn them all are brain dead and can't (or won't) see reality. Islam is the ONLY major religion left in the world that preaches violence to it's followers and has a plan for world domination. Religion is not the problem. Fundamentalist Islam is the problem.

    You do realize that the USA is responsible for far more deaths and wounded in Iraq than all of Al Qaida damage in the entire world put together, right? So the good Christian USA is peaceful?

    And, Iraq had NOTHING to do with 911. In fact they were the ENEMY of Al Qaida.

    Is there a hint of hypocracy in your logic?

    The proud, blessed, Christian USA is far more aggressive and deadly than Islam.

    That is why I stand by my position that Religion in general is the enemy. Sorry to offend those of you peaceful religious people. But, why can't those of you that are peaceful control what your leaders do in the name of God (whichever god).

    • 4 votes
    #1.48 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:30 PM EST
    Comment author avatarMike-416Expand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

    Karaoke Jesus

    What pains me is the "peaceful" aspect of the religion does absolutely nothing to police itself of the radical element, yet expects everyone else to be tolerant.

    What do Catholics do to police themselves to keep from shooting abortion clinic doctors? Or diddling little kids?

    *crickets*

    • 4 votes
    #1.49 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:33 PM EST

    GeorgeLC---as a vet of this war, I ask you: Where on earth are you getting your information? If you are getting it from NBC, FOX or straight from the Oval Office (regardless of who is President), then you are nothing more than a parrot! The supposed intel Bush and Cheney used was largely based upon ONE GUY who went by the name of Curveball. If you read the minutes of the meetings between Rice/Powell and the British in 2002, they worked hard to get a "legal" footing for the invasion. It was obvious from the meeting notes that (aka Downing Street Memos), from the British point of view, the Bush Administration was going to invade, one way or another. So Bush, in the words of the British minutes, was "fixing" the "evidence" needed to justify an invasion.

    It was the British who suggested we send (and NATO as well) inspectors to look at Saddam's sites. The hope was that Saddam would block the inspectors (or worse), and that would be enough justification for a full military incursion. But Saddam, once again, stumped the west by allowing them in! In fact, our inspectors were literally begging Bush, right up to the last minute, NOT to give orders to invade because they had found NOTHING to indicate Saddam was hiding and/or acquiring WMD!

    The former decorated Marine who was a part of that inspection team has written a well documented book on their mission and his own belief that they his team were mere puppets in an eventual invasion.

    • 18 votes
    #1.50 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:34 PM EST

    George, the Bush bashers will bash Bush no matter what the facts of the matter are. Our Democrat Presidents have led us into the majority of all the wars we've been engaged in. Our liberal education system ignores many issues that liberals choose to make go away.

    • 2 votes
    #1.51 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:37 PM EST

    What happens in Iraq is the same thing that will happen in Libya and Egypt. I hope media will remember who was in charge of those conflicts here in US

    • 1 vote
    #1.52 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:44 PM EST

    First and foremost, it doesn't take much looking around to find public condemnation of violence in the name of Allah by Muslims.

    Regardless, your ridiculous line of logic dictates that the Pope should be brought up on pedophilia charges, then. Agreed?

    Is it ridiculous logic to expect not just the Pope, but the entire Catholic community to police and be responsible for their own? If he's not the leader of the Catholic church, then what is he? Regardless, this has nothing to do with Catholicism. If you're going to deflect, at least be sensible about it.

    • 2 votes
    #1.53 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:45 PM EST

    What do Catholics do to police themselves to keep from shooting abortion clinic doctors? Or diddling little kids?

    *crickets*

    Good point. What do they do? Seems to be a fundamental flaw with religion in general. Is it wrong to demand these communities hold themselves accountable?

    • 2 votes
    #1.54 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:48 PM EST

    Lanikai Ron.. you say that like good ole Bush didn't deserve to be kicked around ... you people who supported the fool should just put your tail between your legs and just scoot on off!!!!

    • 8 votes
    #1.55 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:50 PM EST

    This is the most half-baked, lop-sided pseudo reporting I have ever read. Who went to Iraq before the war? If the Iranians want to go to Iraq now, then, that pretty well answers my question...only people more miserable than the Iraquis want to visit Iraq...it's a step up for the Iranians to visit Iraq.

    • 1 vote
    #1.56 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:51 PM EST

    NEWS FLASH - -
    Fox News has proof that Iraq was a liberal plot led by the then jr Senator Obama - Bush and Cheny fought valiantly to prevent the cowardly invasion but the monster Obama had his way!!

    I'm sure half the people reading this will believe it!!

    Stay Tuned - Obama caused WW2 - proof to follow

    • 9 votes
    #1.57 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:01 PM EST

    Kinda agree with you missing; this is not a news story it is an opinion piece "Shia-stan" please!! Egypt, Lybia, Yemen the whole Arab Spring, How do all of you think they will turn out? I'll tell you: One big dysfunctional Islamistan, and all under Obama. Maybe Obamistan describes it well. Either way, hell on earth is where it's headed.

    • 2 votes
    #1.58 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:03 PM EST

    When will we learn that there is one insurmountable problem in this area and it will never be resolved and that is RELIGION it is an intolerant and brutal ideology and the smartest thing we can do is seperate ourselves from it's brainwashed followers!

    Amen! Many so called christians may not be as brutal but are intolerant and full of hate for any that do not buy into their personal brand of belief.

    • 3 votes
    #1.59 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:06 PM EST

    So there were no weapons of mass destruction, and no ties to al Quieda, so the right wing fell back on their claim that we needed to remove Sadam because "he was a brutal dictator". Not sure how I see how MB-3604436 is any better than Sadam. At least Sadam kept Iran in check. MB-3604436 just spreads his hate.

    And More News!- the problem is NOT religion. The problem is extremism and intolerance, and those are not just the province of the religious. Atheists murdered many more people last century than any religion ( Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao ). The problem is people, not the genuine desire to know God.

    • 5 votes
    #1.60 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:11 PM EST

    Mike, your prejudices are showing. Catholics shooting abortion doctors?? You make it sound like an every day occurrance -- or as if all Catholics are running around with guns looking for targets. There are crazies everywhere, in every religion. What, exactly, would you propose the church do to "police" such few and random people that might have ever done this?? That's what the real police are for -- just like with any other citizen. Get a life. Blaming the entire church (which includes all members) for what maybe one in 20 million people has done is insane! Blaming the hierarchy for what that one crazy has done is also insane. I do not know a single priest who would condone, let alone advocate, such an action. Not saying they aren't crazy, but they'd be crazy no matter what religion they subscribed to. Grow up.

    • 2 votes
    #1.61 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:40 PM EST

    Bush wanted BushOilistan. Well, we all know he wasn't too bright. Cheny is probably still making money from Haliburnedya, feeding the troops at $50 a plate, so naturally, he's not happy we are pulling out. He never cared what happened to the country as long as he got richer.

    We broke it, we owned it, I think we've paid for it, now they have to decide what they want to do with their own country. This was inevitable. If they can do it without a civil war, they will be bucking the prediction I made in 2003.

    • 5 votes
    #1.62 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:40 PM EST

    TX&Proud boy are you misinformed...{a Faux news listener, no surprise}

    1:Iran DOES have nuclear ambitions AND the means to aquire them, UNLIKE Iraq...

    The UN oversaw the destruction of ALL of Iraq's WMD's, it documented. Why do you think the UN did NOT approve the invasion of Iraq?

    So stating the "same agenices" that are reporting to Obama are the same as those that reported to that traitor Bush is a lie.

    2:Bringing up GE has NO bearing on what MSNBC reports, as shown by the MANY reports from Maddow and others that lambast the very things GE stands for.

    You may from TX, and you may be proud, but you are not too smart, like MANY of your kind{GOP sheeple}

    • 9 votes
    #1.63 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:41 PM EST

    Did we learn a damn thing? Not today.

    • 1 vote
    #1.64 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:43 PM EST

    Newscover, Saddam sent a HANDFUL of Scuds Israels way, none of which did any damage whatsoever..It was done just to pizzoff the US, no more...so whats your point?

      #1.65 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:51 PM EST

      Golly Gee, Shaking - did you perhaps see an INDEFINITE US presence in Iraq? Unlimited lives of other people's children wasted so that Bush's great folly was kept in check? So, all that nonsense about time tables and a democratic Iraq was just B.S. from those that lied us into this mess? Funny thing about regime change and democracy - it doesn't always look the way you want it to look and it's not really our business to tell country how they'll govern after we've destroyed their infrastructure and economy. You obviously didn't learn your history lessons - we failed when we meddled in Iran, and if Iraq goes the way this article suggests, we've failed again. Perhaps it would have been in our best interest to NOT spend a trillion $$$ getting Saddam's oil for Exxon and BP? How much more would you have been okay with us spending on that clusterfark?

      • 1 vote
      #1.66 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:52 PM EST

      David-3636 yeah you with the short memory, Saddam paid thousand$ to families of suicide bombers who blew themselves up in Israel, Bush kept telling us on TV as justification for the Iraq war, besides being told by God. Israel wants it's neighbors weak, destroy Iraqs weapons accumulated during the IRan-Iraq war, too much for Israel to destroy you know, so let America do their bidding, now the media is repeating with Iran.

        #1.67 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:56 PM EST

        GeorgeLC rewriting history as the GOP does

        After George SR invaded Iraq, the UN oversaw the destruction of ALL Saddams WMDs, chemical and otherwise...All he had left was conventional, sold to him mainly by the US.

        Blair and George JR wanted Saddam out because he wouldnt play ball any longer, AND he tried to, or at least talked about killing George SR..thats it, PERIOD...

        Bush calls Saddam 'the guy who tried to kill my dad'

        September 27, 2002
        And, in discussing the threat posed by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, Bush said: "After all, this is the guy who tried to kill my dad."

        • 2 votes
        #1.68 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:01 PM EST

        What is strange about Richard Engle's article is that this is exactly what Colin Powell and others counseled GHW Bush about. The creation of exactly this situation was precisely why the first Gulf War was stopped without deposing Sadaam.

        The British set this situation up, just as they did in Sub-Asia (India and Pakestan), Palestine, South Africa, and a number of other places. They "created" countries made up of people who did not get along to guarantee that they would never be able to take their place as full-fledged nations. This was a knowing and willing strategy, not some accident.

        Iraq was created to be about equally divided between Shiites, Kurds, and Sunnis. Because the Shiites had a numerical superiority, control was given to the Sunnis. Because the Kurds were owed by the British, the Limeys stabbed them in the back and split their people between Turkey, Iraq and Iran for the same reason. They did similar things in India when they were chased out and Africa when they were chased out and Palestine when they were chased out. And at least a half dozen other places that I can think of off the top of my head. They went to great pains to make sure that these factions would be at each others' throats forever.

        Powell and many others counseled GHW Bush that deposing Sadaam would plunge the country and the region into chaos. Powell guessed that eventually the country would be partitioned into a Kurdish north and the Sunni west would join with Syria and the Shiite east would join with Iran. This would give minimal oil to the Kurds, none to the Sunnis, and about 85% to Iran.

        But W was sooooooo much smarter than his daddy.

        And for @Kpofeefe,

        Your list of "wars" is very incomplete. Why not include Lebanon, and Myanmar, and Panama, and Somalia, and Bosnia, and Grenada, and Honduras, and even Cuba?

        But what ALL these have in common was that every one you list and all that I added were fought on the budget. The money to fight them was voted on and approved by Congress and signed off by the President. In the case of Afghanistan and Iraq these wars were fought off budget with no accounting to Congress or the American People, just a bill at the end of the day. This was over $1.3 trillion dollars and will total somewhere around $4-7 trillion dollars when it is all added up.

        Just as one example of how it compared to a budgeted expense, in 2010 alone the Pentagon spent more money on air conditioning in Iraq and Afghanistan than the entire NASA budget.

        And least you think that I was slighting Ronnie Reagan and his financial shenanigans, Reagan did roughly the same thing. He looted $1.1 trillion dollars from the Social Security, Highways, Airports, Civil Service Retirement and many other trust funds, leaving IOU's behind. Using what GHW Bush called "Voodoo Economics" the IOU's were counted as an asset, but the money spent was never accounted for at all. The entire $1.1 trillion disappeared into the ill-conceived and physically impossible "Star Wars" SDI project. Of 140 project managers in Star Wars, every single one resigned because the project violated known laws of physics and could not every be done. Period. But what happened to the money? There has never been an accounting.

        • 6 votes
        #1.69 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:03 PM EST

        Bush made the mistake of believing that Islam and democracy could coexist. That is decidedly not the
        case and any Muslim country that seems to be a democracy, according to the Islamists, is only a temporary situation.

        • 3 votes
        #1.70 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:04 PM EST

        "We can do it," said:

        John Galt was an egocentric narsicist who had more greed than wisdom.

        Adam Smith would have barfed all over "Atlas Shrugged"

        Go read Wealth of Nations. Look at what Adam Smith says about Capitalism. Specifically, see what he says about the wealthy. The Wealthy should pay a larger share of their income to taxes, as they benefit more from government infrastructure.

        Smart, but an idiot.

        #1.23 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:13 AM PST

        -----------------------------------

        I agree with you, 'We Can Do It'.

        "Who is John Galt?" A fictional, idealistic, anti-socialist character in one of the Ayn Rand novels. Tea Partiers and other Right-Wing Independents admire this fictional character. So much so, they emulate him and segregate themselves from anything and anyone they mistakenly believe is "socialism," in America.

        At the jobsite I currently work at as a contractor, out of the 40 or so people working there, there are three employees that say they are members of the Tea Party, and have read Ayn Rand. These three single men that believe they have all the answers, couldn't get a woman if they tried. All they want to talk about on their off-duty hours, is politics and religion ...and no other topics. No other topics interest them.

        I suspect that's the reason why all three of these super-opinionated, know-it-alls, are "bombing out," whenever they go on a date with any woman.

        As one of the women in my workplace said, these Ayn Rand fans should get a life.

        • 3 votes
        #1.71 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:14 PM EST

        When will we learn that there is one insurmountable problem in this area and it will never be resolved and that is Humanist, it is an intolerant and brutal ideology and the smartest thing we can do is seperate ourselves from it's brainwashed followers

        • 2 votes
        #1.72 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:14 PM EST

        Brad-727901 is the only guy who has nailed the history of how we got into Gulf War II, the lies and concocted evidence leading to the war.

        From my viewpoint, the worst thing Rumsfeld and our ambassador in post-Iraq war did was to dismantle Saddam's army and the bureaucratic organization that they had, all in the name of cleansing the Iraqi government from the Baathist party loyalists. That was a very bad decision. With Saddam gone, US could have used both institutions to keep the country together, even though there would have been some bad elements in them. Keeping them intact would have a better option than to have a government or military aligned with Iran.

        • 2 votes
        #1.73 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:14 PM EST

        Ah, religious faith expressed in collective numbers, imposing a political ideology on everyone, equals a bizarre form of repressive mob rule on the mind, body and soul. These regions of the world experience a, "brain drain," like no other, leaving mediocre minds to rule over all. But eventually they learn.

          #1.74 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:14 PM EST

          Dan ... do you really know what in the hell you are talking about?????

          Saddam Hussein's handwritten order to shoot rockets at Israel

          An Egyptian newspaper has uncovered the original, handwritten order by Saddam Hussein to shoot Scud missiles at Israel, and the article is getting a bit of play in Arab newspapers and message board forums - often with great praise.

          • 1 vote
          #1.75 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:15 PM EST

          And for @Kpofeefe,

          Your list of "wars" is very incomplete. Why not include Lebanon, and Myanmar, and Panama, and Somalia, and Bosnia, and Grenada, and Honduras, and even Cuba?

          LMAO! WE NEVER DECLARED WAR ON THIS MILITARY ACTIONS. These aren't wars or major engagements. COngress never approved Cuba, Greneda or Honduras for that matter. The first the American people heard about those military actions was after the fact.

          I listed MAJOR Wars and engagements. Somolia was a UN action meaning our forces were sent there by UN authority.

          Honduras was a CIA mission until it blew up in our face. Covert meaning secret! Hardly a WAR!

          You people REALLY need some help with American history lessons since you didn't pass it the first time in 5th grade!!!

          • 2 votes
          #1.76 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:18 PM EST

          rradiko, poor reading skills- but you may still be in school. if you would have read the book, you would realize that the novel tells of a world where the entitled, worthless part of society felt is was the productive members responsibility to take of them; this is were true greed lies.

          I do not expect you to understand or agree, and I still wish you the best.

            #1.77 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:22 PM EST

            Israel had to revise its defense budget to maintain its forces at a heightened state of alert. The Iraqi missile attacks justified Israel's prudence in keeping its air force flying round the clock. The war required the defense budget to be increased by more than $500 million. Another $100 million boost was needed for civil defense.

            The damage caused by the 39 Iraqi Scud missiles that landed in Tel Aviv and Haifa was extensive. Approximately 3,300 apartments and other buildings were affected in the greater Tel Aviv area. Some 1,150 people who were evacuated had to be housed at a dozen hotels.

              #1.78 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:22 PM EST

              I am sure when Iraq turn US tv and see Gay couple getting married and getting sergery / removing their sex! I bet they say the same thing about us! is this the country who invaded us is becoming today!!!!!!!!

              HA HA HA

              • 2 votes
              #1.79 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:25 PM EST

              Other American projects history won't be kind to include our assistance of Islamists in the overthrow of Mubarak in Egypt and Gaddafi in Libya. These adventures by America will ultimately result in oppressive Islamic regimes much worse that those of the secular dictators who were deposed.

                #1.80 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:27 PM EST

                Maxeemas ... you are sooo right ... we were a much better country when we were openly hanging blacks from trees!!!!

                  #1.81 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:30 PM EST

                  Gary : What you talking about? you say what you dont know!

                  Mubarak and sadam and gadafi and others were bad evil killing machine, no mercy on their people and never cared about the future of their people, they stole all their money while their people are starving to death!

                  Muslims should be happy and proud and even when those bad people were in charge! things were still bad, you think it s gona get worse now.. it s cant get any worse than before!

                  Dont be jalous of us been free from the devil

                  • 1 vote
                  #1.82 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:36 PM EST

                  I think to not care is the wrong attitude to have, it should be more of "it's none of our business". Iraq NEVER threatened our national security, the whole invasion was stupidity to begin with, and Bush, Cheyney, and Obama (as well as EVERY single member of Congress and/or Senate that agreed to go) should all be charged with war crimes for sending our troops over there to support such nonense. The U.S. Armed forces are not toy soldiers to be sent into battle just so the politicians can line their pockets with money from lobbyists that want the government to waste our tax dollars on spending for foreign wars!

                  • 3 votes
                  #1.83 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:44 PM EST

                  Those of you who like to lump the peaceful religions of the world in with Islam and condemn them all are brain dead and can't (or won't) see reality. Islam is the ONLY major religion left in the world that preaches violence to it's followers and has a plan for world domination. Religion is not the problem. Fundamentalist Islam is the problem.

                  Guess what; condoning and encouraging violence for your own gain is no different than preaching violence. Can you think of a religion or two who have historically done that? And strangely they have all originated in the middle-east.

                    #1.84 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:20 PM EST

                    Were we greeted in the streets as liberators? Not for long. 4400+ of America's young and 66,000 Iraqi civilians died caused by Bush's lies. We would be paid in oil for blowing up their infrastructure and killing innocents, (per Cheney).

                    The historically challenged poster said Vietnam was under Johnson, but we had troops in Vietnam die during Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon. Lies, wars, and war profiteering.

                    President Obama made it clear that he would not allow a prosecution for the fake intel provided by Cheney and his lap dog, Bush---which pi$$es off this Liberal.

                    • 2 votes
                    #1.85 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:24 PM EST

                    Richard Engel - This could not have been the plan

                    Maybe not for President Bush; but for President Obama withhis 2009 Improved Relations with Iran Policy. Iran allowed to do anything, Carte Blanche. So when General McChrystal stated that Iran was providing, supporting, Al Quada Afghanistan, Taliban Afghanistan, Taliban Pakistan, Army of Islam Pakistan, etc. based on tons of weapons, ammunition, etc. captured, General McChrystal received a Letter of Reprimand from President Obama for violating President Obama's2009 Improved Relations with Iran Policy, just after President Obama nominated General McChrystal as Commander, US Congress Confirmed, and he assumed Command of Afghanistan.

                    Those of us that have been involved with Iraq since the US Military Training Teams to US Ally Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars TOLD ALL OF YOU THAT WOULD LISTEN WHAT WAS HAPPENING. No Big F**king Surprise to us, Big F**king Surprise to You.

                    ONCE AGAIN ALL THE KNOW NOTHING EMPTY PLASTIC HEADED BOBBLE HEADS HAVE TO POST NONSENSE ON NEWSVINE.

                    bob1/28 - Turkey may step in to clean out the KURDS .

                    Pay attention to my previous Newsvine Posts, I told you that 2010 US Ally Turkey Raided the Islamic Jihadist (aka Islamic Terrorist) Training Camps at the Autonomous Kurdistanis Region (Northern Iraq, Border of Syria, Southern Turkey, Western Border of Iran). This US Ally Turkey Raid is continuing today, 2011.

                    To the surprise of the US Ally Turkey, they did not only find Kurdistanis PKK, HPG, KGK, they found hundreds of thousands of Islamic Jihadists all supported with Iranian Military Trainers, Iranian Military Advisers, weapons, ammunition, bomb making materials, Military Equipment, Funding, etc.. This escalated to the current US Ally Turkey Airstrikes.

                    These US Ally Turkey Actions (Raid), forced the hundreds of thousands of Islamic Jihadists (trained to conduct Asymmetric Warfare, not counter massive Conventional Warfare in the open) to flee, for Asymmetric Warfare it is common to get the millions of locals to fight for your Cause(s) usually by creating a Civil War; Al Quada Syria to Syria (current problems), Muslim Brotherhood overthrow US Ally President of Egypt; Libyan Islamic Fighting Group overthrow Gaddaffi the Collaborator to the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers; Al Quada Yemen overthrow US Ally President of Yemen; Pakistanis Taliban, Army of Islam Pakistan (Not Pakistanis Government Military), overthrow the US Ally Pakistanis Government; Al Sheebah overthrow the non Fundamentalist Islamic Somalis Government; Arabic Omani Muslims at Sudan, Kenya, etc.; Iranian Allies the Kurdistanis and Shiites get control of Iraq; etc..

                    And all the KNOW NOTHING EMPTY PLASTIC HEADED BOBBLE HEADS believed that the "Arab Spring", "Egyptian Revolution", "Peace Flotilla", etc. were because of Democracy. LOL.

                    What Fundamentalist Islamic Iran gained after President Obama's 2009 Improved Relations with Iran Policy (cannot do or say anything adverse against Iran), US Ally Saudi Arabia currently surrounded; Strategic Access to Suez Canal; Egyptian Mediterranean Ports (closer to strike the Crusaders, no Fundamentalist Islam have not forgiven all of you at Europe yet, why they use Red Crosses as targets); easier access to Gaza, Sinai, Palestine, etc. attack US Ally Israel; Control of Shipping (Saudi Kuwaitis Oil Supertankers to US) at the Persian Gulf and Gulf of Oman; Iran's Allies the Kurdistanis and Shiites give Iran control of the Iraqis Northern and Southern Oil Fields, Iran then negotiates with Iran's Allies, the Chinese and Russian Federation to get the Iraqis Oil Field Contracts, this makes Libyan Oil of Strategic Importance to the US European Allies, the Iraqis Oil for decades to pay for the US Military Liberation of Iraq is gone; Iran talks to the Afghans, and negotiates for the Chinese to obtain the High Tech Mineral Rights to Afghanistan (no Lithium for US Electric Car Batteries, no other High Tech Minerals for US Digital Technology), China places an embargo against shipments of High Tech Minerals external to China, 2011, US High Tech Manufacturing f**ked (no High Tech Minerals) all must be manufactured at China; purchase of North Korean copies of Chinese copies of USSR SS-18 ICBMs as shipped thru Bejing China 2010, Unlimited support from the Chinese and Russian Federation for Iranian Oil and increased Iranian "Sphere of Influence", etc.

                    The above is the short list.

                    Cyclometh - No matter how brutal Hussein was, we destroyed that country and caused the deaths of many, and now we just can't be bothered to care. We spent our soldiers' blood for nothing and just don't even give a damn.

                    US Congress demanded that we Overthrow a former US Ally (A President of a Parliamentary Government (left over form of Government as a former British Colony). That used harsh methods to keep three main groups of people from killing each other.

                    Iraqis: Arabs, Sunnis, Arabic. Previous US Ally during the Iran Iraq Wars. Iran backed by the USSR.

                    Kurdistanis: Indo Europeans, Shiites, Kurdish form of Farsi (Persian, Iranian), as the Armed (men, women, children) Allies of Fundamentalist Islamic Iran since the Iran Iraq Wars. Their Goal the Formation of the Nation of Kurdistan of Southern Turkey, Northern Iraq, Western Iran, Eastern Syria, etc.. Because my first "Middle East" language was Farsi, to become "Middle East" Qualified I could communicate (speaking, writing, reading) with the Kurdistanis, and Shiites; as well as with the Afghans near the Iranian Borders. The College Arabic covers most of the other Islamic Nations, with Arabic being the Official Language of Islam (the Holy Koran (Quran) and Islamic Laws).

                    Shiites at Iraq:Persians (first thru fourth generation), Shiites, Farsi, generations ago fled Iran as Illegal Aliens, just like the over 23 Million Illegal Aliens at the US, used as cheap labor by the Iraqis, especially the hard work at the Southern Iraqis Oil Fields. Over the generations they demanded more Iraqis Citizenship Rights and started saying they were "Oppressed". During the US Law, H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" the Shiites were hired as assassins and insurgents by the US to Overthrow President Hussein, not being the most educated in the World many sold each other out for rewards and all hundred thousand were apprehended tried and executed as Traitors, President Clinton and the President Clinton White House spun this to "Dictator Massacres His Own People" (photo of widow crying over mass graves, front page US Newspapers). As still loyal citizens of Iran, this article indicates what they want (got); think about this Shia' Law, Sharia Law, as it is the Fundamentalist Islamic interpretation of Islam that is Shia, Shiites; it is the "Modern", "Western", "Peaceful", "Liberal" interpretation of Islam that is Sunni; this is what the whole centuries old hatred and killings between Shiites and Sunnis is about (see the article photo about the Shiites celebrating the Shiites killing of Imam Hussein, grandson of Prophet Mohammad. ). I was laughing my arse of at the Brits that learned Arabic, and not Farsi, when the Brits were at Basra (where millions of Iranians fled to Iraq as Illegal Aliens), so they were using the oppressor language of the Iraqis Arabic, it would be just like the Southern US talking in American English to the Illegal Aliens; I was laughing until they started automatically hating the Brits by attacking and killing them.

                    Jeff P-14, Cygnus_X-1, Wilberta Berry, Patriotic American U.S.A., bill s-374237, Brad-727901, Barlow-1919963, and those that voted for your posts

                    LIKE I SAID KNOW NOTHING EMPTY PLASTIC HEADED BOBBLE HEAD TROLLS.

                    My men, women and myself have been involved with US Ally Iraq since the Iran Iraq Wars, as the US Military Training Teams "Middle East" Qualified (US Military Asymmetric Warfare, languages Farsi, Arabic, etc.). As rotated from US Ally Iraq to Pakistan/Afghanistan to train the 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen to defeat the USSR 40th Army Occupation.

                    Written Proof: US LAWS (with US Congressional Appropriations), it is NOT the US President's Job to create US Laws, that is the job of US Congress, it is also the Job of US Congress to find the money to fund the US Laws US Congress Creates. IT IS NOT THE US PRESIDENT'S JOB TO DECIDE WHICH US LAWS TO ENFORCE:

                    US LAW, H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" with US Congressional Appropriations, as demanded by President Clinton during his State of the Union Address to a joint Session of US Congress, 1998. Justification WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, Section 2 "Findings" of US Law H.R.4655 (scroll down to Section 2 "Findings"):

                    http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1057063/posts

                    It was believed by President Clinton that Overthrowing President Hussein would "Liberate the Iraqis People". This is when we (US Military Asymmetric Warfare Teams) were sent into Iraq to buyhundreds of thousands of Shiites as assassins and insurgents to Overthrow President Hussein. After this failed, as they were turning each other in for rewards, and being apprehended, tried and executed as Traitors, with President Clinton stating, "Dictator Massacring His Own People".

                    After these measures failed we were sent in to conduct Target Damage Assessments before the start of Operation Desert Fox. President Clinton as Commander In Chief believed that attacking the Government of Iraq would mean no one left to negotiate, so the urban poor areas of Baghdad were targeted with US Airstrikes and Cruise Missile Attacks (with no input from us, overruled by Presidential/Commander In Chief Orders.). You NEVER ever mess with the poor of Islam, this is when the rest of the Islamic World started to call the US "The Great Satan".

                    We leave Iraq, and return to US Military Bases at Germany. We are deployed to other Missions.

                    Weeks after the 9/11 2001 Attacks we are sent to Afghanistan to Overthrow the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban Government (those millions of Pro USSR Afghans that fled to USSR backed Iran, and returned) that were providing Islamic Sanctuary to Osama Bin Laden, Al Quada, and supporting the Islamic Jihadist Training Camps. As just after the 1993 First World Trade Center Bombing, many Islamic Nations offered the capture and extradition of Osama Bin Laden to the US, like Gaddaffi (President Clinton's response to Gaddaffi's was to bomb the hell out of Libya).

                    After all the lesser means of US Law H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" (money still being appropriated by US Congress, 1998 to 2011, the US Law does NOT go away until the US Law is Accomplished). US Congress uses the Final Option, the US Military, by DECLARING WAR WITH IRAQ, with US Law, 2002 Iraqi War Resolution with US Congressional Appropriations. The only valid excuse for a US President to NOT enforce a US Law, is if there is no money (US Congressional Appropriations).

                    US Declaration of War With Iraq, 2002 Iraqi War Resolution:

                    uspolitics.about.com/od/wariniraq/a/jt_resolution.htm

                    We, the remaining survivors from Afghanistan, are sent to Northern Iraq, just after US Law, 2002 Iraqi War Resolution is signed, to live with the Kurdistanis to gain their Trust. Our Missions during Operation Hotel California: Train, Organize, Arm the Kurdistanis to fight the Iraqis Military. We and the Kurdistanis that we trained, seize and secure the Northern Iraqis Oil Fields. Attack the Iraqis Military Forces to make them think that the Main US Military Liberation Forces would come thru US Ally Turkey, so that they would deploy their Main Iraqis Military Forces North of Baghdad. USAF deploys non nuclear E-Bombs to destroy all Iraqis Electronics (Iraqis Civilian Communications as a alternate Iraqis Military Communications) so that the Iraqis Military Command cannot redeploy south nor organize a coordinated defense at the south. During this time, we (two companies of us and Kurdistanis Companies we trained) destroyed 6 Full Strength Iraqis Armor and Mechanized Infantry Divisions (credited), and 2 Full Strength Iraqis Divisions that were held in Reserve (not credited); we had no Air Support (CAS, Airstrikes), as many of these Iraqis High Ranking Commanders were those we trained during the Iran Iraq Wars, so we tried not to kill them (friends made in Combat) and concentrated on only their tanks, light armor, mechanized infantry vehicles, and trucks, so that the Iraqis Military could run away (survive, we warned them what would happen if the Kurdistanis got a hold of them.). Later on the 2003 US Military Conventional Warfare Forces start coming up from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia to Liberate Iraq. The Iraqis Military being Command Driven, as No Orders then do nothing, cannot coordinate a cohesive Defense of Southern Iraq (no command, control, communications, coordinations, intelligence, C4I) and cannot redeploy the Main Iraqis Military Forces from North of Baghdad, so the Iraqis Military to the south are picked off piece meal with many surrendering to the 2003 Main US Military Forces.

                    Sure Brad-727901, you spend years learning Farsi, lived with the local Iraqis, lived with the Afghans, went to College at Egypt to learn Arabic (Bachelors) while living with a Egyptian Family, later went to College at Egypt to learn Islam (Bachelors, taught in Arabic), you were with us at Afghanistan to overthrow the Taliban Government, you were with us during Operation Hotel California, and all the previous and subsequent US Military Asymmetric Warfare Missions while attached to SAD.

                    Brad-727901, do you want me to copy and paste your previous posts that I copied and pasted to notepad and saved on my external hard drive that prove you are a POSER, IMPOSTOR.

                    I included just enough details so that if you attempt to use my information to claim you were a participant you will trip yourself up just like poser, impostor, sandtrich, did.

                    There is the proof above: Jeff P-14, Cygnus_X-1, Wilberta Berry, Patriotic American U.S.A., bill s-374237, Brad-727901, Barlow-1919963, and those that voted for your posts, are KNOW NOTHING EMPTY PLASTIC HEADED BOBBLE HEAD TROLLS (continually posting the same emotive opinionated non factual uneducated nonsense over and over again).

                    romilio - This is the result of going to war without doing your homework.

                    What do you expect, 92% of US Citizens Never Served in the US Military so they have no firsthand experience. Of the 1/2 of 1% of the US Military currently Serving in the US Military, we are about 3% of the US Military as US Military Asymmetric Warfare Forces, of that 3% we are only 1% that have survived this long since the 1980s, with required knowledge of Islam, Languages, Cultures, etc. thru Formal Education, Training, and most important living with the locals for years of consecutive tours (Not living isolated on Secure US Military Bases, FOBs, COBs, AFBs, Green Zones, US Embassy Compounds, etc.).

                    Most of us are happy, that in less than 7 months we will be "Too Old" to ever be involuntarily Recalled to Active Duty ever again (and again and again). Especially, since the US Politicians refuse to listen to anything we say, as the "Boots on the Ground" and so called (their name for us) "Middle East Experts" (after all these decades of living with the locals most of us know we still don't know everything).

                    romilio - We just gave Iraq to Iran on a silver plate.

                    After President Obama's 2009 Improved Relations with Iran Policy, gave Iran Carte Blanche to do anything (and they did). The US Ally Saudi Arabia got surrounded by their Enemies. The Saudis were begging for US or Israelis Military interventions. President Obama turned his back on the Saudis and to placate them sent Secretary of Defense Gates. After Iran gained control of the wealth of Iraq, the Northern and Southern Iraqis Oil Fields; Iran's further support of the Islamic Jihadist Training Camps at Yemen; many of the Shiites from the Islamic Jihadists Training Camps at the Autonomous Kurdistanis Region going to southern Iraq (near the Kuwaitis and Saudi Borders); etc. what the King of Saudi Arabia actually stated was, "President Obama gave Iraq as a Gift to Iran on a Golden Platter".

                    • 3 votes
                    #1.86 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:35 PM EST

                    kpokeefe you are spitting in the wind with these people. But you forgot Johnson a Democrat and Viet Nam, and you forgot Iraq and Obama. And you forgot the democrats and the Civil War. The south never successfully seceded from the United States and the Confederate States of America's politicians were solidly pro slavery democrats.

                    • 2 votes
                    #1.87 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:51 PM EST

                    We should never have been there in the first place, and now people say "Can't say I care". There's a hundred and fifty thousand Iraqis dead that did not need to be. No matter how brutal Hussein was, we destroyed that country and caused the deaths of many, and now we just can't be bothered to care.

                    That's right. I really don't give a_sh1t about them and I doubt you really do either beyond looking for another armchair excuse to Bush-bash.

                    • 1 vote
                    #1.88 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:56 PM EST

                    I think what everyone is forgetting is that it doesn't matter what Bush or anyone wants for Iraq... All that matters is what Iraqis want for Iraq it is their damn country.

                    • 1 vote
                    #1.89 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:56 PM EST

                    kpokeefe You forgot that Johnson was a democrat and increased mightily the troops in Viet Nam.

                    And reason for war is as important as the war. Bush Sr. invaded Iraq to prevent Iraq from taking over all oil supplies in the mid east. You maybe remember they took over Kuwait and killed how many people and were a hair's breath from Saudi Arabia?

                    And Obama continued the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars. Democrat again. You might want to rack up Libya on his side too. Lets see what he does in Syria.

                      #1.90 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:02 PM EST

                      Sad thing is in a few years, you can substitute Afganistan for Iraq and Obama for Bush, and have the same story...........

                      • 1 vote
                      #1.91 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:27 PM EST

                      Hey TX # 1.38, That was nice of you to stop by from Fox losers news ??????????

                      • 4 votes
                      #1.92 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:46 PM EST

                      Yep and there is POSER IMPOSTOR, sandtrich, that previously claimed he is a Vietnam Era Veteran; but did not even know the common things of those that are Vietnam Era Veterans regardless of Branch of Service (US Army, USAF, USMC, USN, including the Coast Guard, Merchant Marines, etc.).

                      Those of you that do want to know about Islam (from those that have lived at Islamic Nations for decades):

                      a. The 1.8% (Minority) of Islamic Believers at the US do NOT determine what Islam is or is not for the 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers Worldwide (Majority).

                      b. The 109 Suras of the 114 Suras of the Holy Koran (Quran) Call All Islamic Believers to War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers for the Death Penalty Crimes Against Allah and His Prophet. The penalty for non participation is the Death Penalty, as is speaking out against this (no Freedom of Speech) and the current Islamic Laws is also the Death Penalty as "Doing Harm to Allah and His Prophet".

                      To set the example for all Islamic Believers Worldwide, the Arabic Omani Muslims massacred hundreds a day (millions to date) of the "Peaceful", "Moderate" African Islamic Believers at the Sudan for refusing to attack the Christians at southern Sudan. And we as UN and African Union Observers could do nothing to stop them, we were threaten with very long residency at the US Military Disciplinary Barracks (Fort Leavenworth) or solitary confinement at the nearest Federal Penitentiary by the US Politicians.

                      c. Islam is NOT your LIMITING WESTERN TERM of "Religion". As for Islamic Believers, Islam Is ALL; ALL POLITICS, ALL RELIGIONS, ALL BELIEFS, ALL LAWS, ALL WAYS OF LIFE, ALL CULTURE, etc. that SUPERSEDE the politics, religions, beliefs, laws, ways of life, cultures, etc. of all other nations. This is stated by the current Islamic Laws (enforced Internationally thru the Imams at the Mosques Worldwide as demanded by the current Islamic Laws based on the Holy Koran (Quran)). This is stomped into their heads since birth by their parents, their peers, their schools, their governments, their News Media, etc..

                      This is why at most Western Nations (non Islamic) they cannot assimilateinto the "Non Islamic", "Modern", "Western" Cultures as it is against the current Islamic Laws. Great Britain, France, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, etc.. This is also why Al Sheebah destroyed all the "Modern", "Western", "Non Islamic" irrigation and modern farming as built during UN Mission Somalia I and UN Mission Somalia II to end the cycles of droughts and famine. As throughout the World, Islam uses Famine and Starvation as an Islamic Weapon to force more into Islam or starve, as the Somalis men join Al Sheebah while the women and children (though of as worthless to their Cause(s)) flee into Kenya. With Kenya doing the minimum as Kenya is Ruled by the Rich Arabic Omani Muslims that treat the Swahilli as fourth class citizens (to even have a Swahili name is to automatically become a fourth class Citizen, a Kaffir (the Islamic "N" Word), this is why President Obama's Father named him an Arabic Omani Muslim name and not a Swahilli name, Barrack Hussein Obama; that is just a fact from having gone to Kenya on R&R after our UN and African Mission to the Sudan.

                      d. Islam is NOT a pick and choose Belief, there are severe penalties for doing that. It is also Illegal to attempt to leave Islam, to the extent of being named (as a criminal) a Islamic Heretic, and the issuance of a Death Penalty Fatawa against you.

                      This is why at Egypt there is violence against the Christians, as recently an Islamic woman married to a Christian converted to Christianity, this resulted in the attempted kidnapping of the former Islamic woman, beating of the Christians of that Church, and the later fire bombing, and then the actual explosive bombings. This then spread Nationwide at Egypt, as broadcasted thru Arabic Al Jazeera (I routinely watch Arabic Al Jazeera just to see what is really going on, instead of the censored US News Media, I also watch Iran's Fars to listen to all their bragging about their new weapons (also never reported by the censored US News Media.).

                      e. The 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers Worldwide must by Islamic Law give their Mandatory Islamic Tithes. The Mandatory Islamic Tithes used to be 2% of everything you owned, this was perverted to the more you give the more Muslim (Subjugated to Islam, "Faithful") you are. These Mandatory Islamic Tithes are NOT used for the Building of Islamic Cultural Centers, Mosques, the Poor of Islam, etc.. These Mandatory Islamic Tithes are used to support, fund the Worldwide Islamic Jihadists, as traced to "Non Established Financial Institutions" by International Law Enforcement, International Intelligence Agencies, many Nations Department of State, International Financial Institutions, etc. with these Mandatory Islamic Tithes then going from the Imams at the Mosques (money laundrying) eventually to the Islamic Jihadists. (this can be seen at the unclassified US Department of State Documents of SOS Clinton at the US Department of State Internet site (if you are not too lazy to look)).

                      Example, the Imam of NYC had to go to Bahrain to beg for money to build the NYC Islamic Cultural Center.

                      If you attempt to disregard this Islamic Law requiring Mandatory Islamic Tithes, the Imam will mention you by name (your family too) at the Mosques. With your "peers" letting you know that you must pay your Mandatory Islamic Tithes.

                      The Mandatory Islamic Tithes are not only monetary, they include (based on higher personal status), Political Endorsements of Islam, Legalization of Islamic Jihadists (aka Terrorists), Taqiya (Lies to Advance Islam, the Holy Koran's Islamic Believers must "Fight in the Ways of Satan"), posting misinformation on the internet, Islamic Sanctuary (especially for Islamic Jihadists) including at any Islamic Properties, Material Support (food, water, weapons, ammunition, medical supplies, funds, etc.), Legal Support (lawyers, etc.), as a last resort if you have nothing else then you join the Islamic Jihad (yourself as the Mandatory Islamic Tithe), etc. as required by the current Islamic Laws.

                      All of you can say your politically correct baloney, we normally sit in the local Mosques and intently listen to what the Imams are saying. Just like Worldwide they incited their Islamic Believers to violence by saying that the Pastor at Florida had Burned the Holy Koran (Quran) (past tense, not threatened to burn). We have also seen the "shake downs" of Islamic Believers by other Islamic Believers directed by the Imams for the Mandatory Islamic Tithes at many Islamic Nations.

                      Yes, it is true that 1.5 Billion one dollar bills do not amount to much to fund the shear numbers of Islamic Jihadists Worldwide. However, they are getting "Free" weapons, ammunition, training, support, shelter, etc. from Fundamentalist Islamic Iran, if they are willing to obey the 109 Suras of the 114 Suras of the Holy Koran (Quran) (Islams War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers). What most of you fail to figure out is just one Islamic Nation like Qatar gives them Trillions of Petro Dollars (not the devalued USDs), as well as many of the Oil Rich Islamic Nations of OPEC (Trillions), and the Arab League of Nations (originally founded by the co founder of the Muslim Brotherhood and 1933 Allied forever the Islamic World to Hitler, Amin Al-Husseini praised as an Egyptian and Muslim Hero (just somethings you learn at Egypt thru their mandatory school curriculum of Hitler's Mein Kampf as a success story and the blame the Jews for everything "Protocols of the Wise Elders of Zion").

                      Those are the basic (not all) the misperceptions all of you have about the Islamic Belief. You try living with the locals like the above for decade without being detected, and tell me that you would not be happier than f**k that you will finally be able to stop in less than 7 months (one month debriefing, a week outprocessing and final Retirement Briefings and paperwork (again)).

                      Some of you are just like my young Brother In Law, did not f**king listen to my advice NEVER to get involved with us. So he did, then he was trained as"Combatant" to be a "Non Combatant" during President Obama's withdrawal of US Military Combat Forces from Iraq. With the US Embassy Staff being about 1,000 and the other 15,000 that will remain being US Military attached to the US Department of State (without the Supply, Transportation, Logistics, Combat Support of the. And all of you believed that baloney.

                      • 1 vote
                      #1.93 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:58 PM EST

                      Suspension of our Bill of Rights our Constitution Plus WAR CRIMES for DOLLARS - we look the other way

                      War Profits Made Many Millionaires Many Times Over - Multi Millionaires - Halliburton, Cheney et. al., they won the war now filthy rich on the blood money of nearly 200,000 dead (the inside conservative number) the looting of our national Treasury. War Criminals the stinking coward Cheney and all of his pals but the absolute corruption the cowardly and brain washed minions especially the Tea Baggin' Buffoons and all the rest of them CORRUPT, complicit in these crimes. From our Sharia high court (what a joke an entity of suppression to validate the violence on us) to the state houses on up to all of Capitol Hill all CORRUPT.

                      Now the right to vote is being diminished with no outrage where is the "real news" of the legislation to abrogate the 5th amendment? The foolish illusion we still have something called "The Bill of Rights" and "The Constitution of The United States? The First Amendment is of no use as police riots go on and on with no injunction from those sworn to protect the American People. There is this incessant attack on The Constitution and there is no one speaking out but for the OWS citizens our last and best hope so get off your lazy arse and march practice peaceful civil disobedience its now or never the violence is on your freedoms.

                      I use a post which I thank the poster made a few good points as others: I edit a little but as others reflects my view, a good friend of mine lost his son I remember the fallen a child then running around my office as his dad delivered my his paper work and we would share a cup of coffee while his son marveled at our office. His father, my Friend, received some ribbons and a formal letter of condolences and thankfulness from the Bush administration to assuage the pain from the loss of his son. You see his family could not afford the high tuition of our California Universities, so military service was the only option even a health plan was now affordable (a form of involuntary conscription). American Vets still must pay a substantive dollar amount in "co-pays". The stupidity and total lack of value for American Military lives for the goal of riches is obvious and yet the American People are impotent no courage to bring those to justice, these "War Criminals"...I speak of the lies of Cheney, the perjury before the world on the worlds stage (NATO) the complete fabrication that Iraq held WMD and was complicit in the attacks on 9-11 then sent Powell on a fools errand.

                      Four thousand, five hundred soldiers families care and those that have a moral conscience care, those that will carry the debt on their backs so the 1%, the real elite, the 99% they care and now are asked to pay for their party and set this up the war profits go even further as we let Iran build up so war is inevitable: the only plausible way that stealth drone, the highest hi-tech the world has could have made so soft a landing is if some entity on our side, the 1% side, wanted the evil ones to have this and slaughter in the future how ever many Americans the number of Americans sacrificed are only a means to a greater end - read money and world domination - you and I don't matter only cannon fodder on the road to more riches.

                      We should never have been there in the first place but the perjury and deliberate miss-information feed to the world and especially to the American People we were duped and the UK, now people say "Can't say I care". There's a hundred and fifty thousand (at least the real number is higher at 200,000) Iraqis dead that did not need to be, this is a low number. No matter how brutal Hussein was, we destroyed that country and caused the deaths of many, and now we just can't be bothered to care. The Buffer Hussein and menace to Iran was eliminated for what real purpose? We must look two or more steps ahead as in a chess game we think two or more moves ahead....so what is the greater picture as surely even Bush knew we had Iraq boxed in that Iran would make a puppet state of the "new Iraq" surely this was anticipated what is the greater goal here?

                      We are controlled by the Financial/Military/Industrial Complex they own this country, there is only one thing to do which is to put all your prejudices aside such as going after migrant field hands thinking they are some significant factor in the murderous war profiteering of the WAR CRIMINALS involved in the largest money/fraud larceny perpetrated on the American People in our short history and possibly in world history. Ask yourself: have ever so many Millionaires and Billionaires ever been created in any eleven year period in American history? The answer is NOoooooooo - just look at those that profited and those that suffered and continue to suffer the violence against the American people the attack on us from our own government which continues in these unchecked police riots, emblematic is the arrest of citizens for standing on a sidewalk and taking photos. Yes a fine illustration of the violence on Democracy a violence on YOU.

                      "We spent our soldiers blood for nothing and just don't even give a damn" - Yes Cheney et al laugh and joke, no pangs of guilt for the tragedy they perpetuated and feel above the law the indictments that where surely thought to be forthcoming when Obama took office never took place as not one Wall Street Gangster has been indicted nor these WAR CRIMINALS. Are you blind?.....Enough for me a disgrace and war crimes that seem will never and forever go unpunished it will be as though they never happened, a free "get out of jail card", men above the law standing tall on the blood and suffering of the families of the fallen and those of us that now will pay for their crimes.

                      Here is what you should be feeling and doing during this Ahahaha yeah right an "election year" here take a look and ACT.

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5XV6EeSf98

                      HOW MUCH MORE CAN YOU TAKE?

                      Good Day and Good Luck...............

                      • 4 votes
                      #1.94 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:05 PM EST

                      David---I served aboard the USS Marias, AO-57 out of Mayport and then Fleet Air Jax, Rear Admiral Gieger's staff as a PN3. You, on the other hand, have claimed to have served in Vietnam, have been a surgeon sewing legs back on Afghani children. People can add. You're just a propaganda machine for the DoD--and a poor one at that. You claim service periods that are impossible. Did you fight in the Civil War? If so, which side?

                      With all of that "action", how do you have endless hours a day to bless us with your presence on the Vine. It's a dishonor to those that have died for their country to make false claims about service. Stop it.

                      Chop that defense related budget in half---at least.

                      • 3 votes
                      #1.95 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:08 PM EST

                      add to bottom of post#1.93.

                      (without the Supply, Transportation, Logistics, Combat Support of the support of the rest of the US Military). And all of you believed that Political Reelection baloney (at the expense of more US Military to get killed).

                      sandtrich - David---I served aboard the USS Marias, AO-57 out of Mayport and then Fleet Air Jax, Rear Admiral Gieger's staff as a PN3.

                      You want me to prove that you are a POSER, IMPOSTOR. Like I said before you are taking other Vietnam Era Veterans information and impersonating them, proven because you do not know specific details that all US Military Vietnam Era Veterans KNOW (From Experience).

                      sandtrich - You, on the other hand, have claimed to have served in Vietnam, have been a surgeon sewing legs back on Afghani children.

                      I previously mentioned when, where, why (mission), who (our organization, unit), how many, etc., this is when I previously proved you are a POSER, IMPOSTOR.

                      • 1 vote
                      #1.96 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:08 PM EST

                      sandtrich- You, on the other hand, have claimed to have served in Vietnam, have been a surgeon sewing legs back on Afghani children.

                      And just like the exaggerations of a 15 year old living in their momma's basement. I never posted that I "have been sewing the legs back on Afghani children"- sandtrich

                      What we do is sew up the stumps of their severed limps. Those that we believe might be able to have a finger, hand, limb reattached, we evacuate (at our own risk) to the nearest Forward Surgical Team (something else you would never know about, yet attempt to denegrate the FACTS, as the POSER/IMPOSTOR that you ARE.).

                      Most of the other Vietnam Era US Military Veterans agreed with me that you, sandtrich, are a POSER/IMPOSTOR TROLL on the previous Newsvine Topic. Because you did not know Facts that all of us US Military Vietnam Era Veterans knew (required to know) from day one of US Military Service Vietnam Era.

                      • 1 vote
                      #1.97 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:22 PM EST

                      @Davis 475...Post #1.93....I am Nam era I missed what I am suppose to know? Want to see my DD214....how about a small wager and I am sure my local 40 Vets will want in if you question my service put up the money or don't question my service.

                      Your so far off base to lump the Turks and all other mostly secular Muslims, American Muslims and secular Muslims around the world as one monolithic one narrow minded people subject to the Imams and Islam or Sharia Law is so mindless it bears no further dialogue what a mountain of trash talk you post.

                      Just like the American Muslim family was not fanatic and radical just like us they are just like us David they crave freedom from the dogma and think for themselves...Americam Muslims...David...the reality TV show will air now and I strongly suggest you watch it as these are American Muslims and you need to get some cognitive awarness the war is over...did you miss that...GAME OVER.

                      You David lack a clear sense of ...you are stricken with absolute ...cognitive dissonance ...110%

                      Do yourself a favor and watch an American Muslim family not subject to that trash talk and lumping of all Muslins as one....the worst post of the worst I have read of your dribble. In case you were not aware we already have banned Sharia in The United States it is - was called The Consitution of The United States.

                      Mon -o man -o- man....Geez...get a grip!!!!!!!

                      • 3 votes
                      #1.98 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:28 PM EST

                      Post Scrip to Post # 335.98 should read "@ David" not Davis - in a hurry no time for this hash ....Byeeeee...no time for this I must work just how do you find all this time to post and post are we not paying you to work and work?

                      • 1 vote
                      #1.99 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:36 PM EST

                      @sandtrich

                      "I served aboard the USS Marias, AO-57 out of Mayport and then Fleet Air Jax, Rear Admiral Gieger's staff as a PN3."

                      no you didn't ...post definitive proof...shoe ,meet other foot

                      besides , how would that make you and expert on how the military should be administered?...that's right it doesn't and you don't get to make the rules

                      • 1 vote
                      #1.100 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:49 PM EST

                      Persevere,

                      I scanned my Vietnam DD-214 along with the others. At the upper part of the DD-214 there is some information that was used during the Vietnam Era and not after 1976 Service (compared to my later DD-214s). So if you served during Vietnam even if you got out after 1976, the information prior to 1976 was still on the after 1976 DD-214sj, for those that entered Service after 1976 this information was never included on their DD-214s.

                      This is what tripped up sandtrich, as he did not know and kept using post 1976 information.

                      DO NOT POST WHAT YOU FIND OUT. As then sandtrich pshsing as an Impostor and Poser will use your Vietnam Era US Military Service (including to your detriment).

                      So when I told the other Newsvine posters that identified themselves as Vietnam Veterans (I am still searching for some of my unit) to look at their DD-214s at a certain location most of them agreed that sandtrich is a Poser/ Impostor, and the more sandtrich tried to explain the more she dug herself into the hole (more proof sandtrich did not Serve In US Military).

                      • 1 vote
                      #1.101 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:13 PM EST

                      David--the medications will help you, but you have to take them. All you do is post copy and paste and have endless time to do so. Take your time. Tell me that I'm a jihadist or a kindergarten teacher from Peoria or a welder from Ok City or an inmate at Chino-- I don't care. Fake

                      • 2 votes
                      #1.102 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:15 PM EST

                      Persevere,

                      You want to talk about the Turks, fine.

                      Once upon a time ago, something that never made it into the History Books, there was this US Military Nuclear Weapons Custodial Unit at Erzrum Turkey. This place was in the middle of nowhere.

                      I knew the Detachment Commander, O-2, when I was with the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces (INF) long before I became US Military Asymmetric Warfare "Middle East" Qualified.

                      At this middle of nowhere location the US Military secured the "inside the fence", the Turkish Military Guarded the outer fences and manned the Towers.

                      During the Turkish Greek Cyprus thing the Turkish Military sent two Battalions to seize the US Nuclear Weapons (yes, I know the warhead model numbers, mostly artillery projectiles) to use against the Greeks. This included the Turks guarding the outside fences and the towers turning their weapon on the US Military personnel "inside the fences".

                      The detachment commander and CW2 "Mr C." (later CW3 when I knew him) told the Turkish Military Commander that they had the site prepared for an Emergency Destruction of all nuclear weapons on site (Delegated Presidential Command Authority, what most that never had that after being read in, don't know about). Mr.C held up an ignitor with det cord attached (if this were real he would blow (cut) his hand off), after hours of standoff, the Turkish Military backed down. Thru the Cemetary Net (Microwave Emergency Nuclear Control Orders), we were ordered to Emergency Retrograde the US Nuclear Weapons from Greece and Turkey, the US Military Airborne at Camp Darby would assist.

                      Fast forward years later after becoming US Military Asymmetric Warfare "Middle East" Qualified. After refresher Mountain Warfare training with the Deutsche Bundeswehr Commandos at the Zugspitz, as most of us had already graduated from the US Military Mountain Warfare School (run by US Military Reserve) we were sent to train with US Ally Turkey to get familiarized with the identical mountain terrain for our later US Military Asymmetric Mountain Warfare Mission here (Afghanistan). During this training with the Turkish Military we were conducting actual missions against the Kurdistanis PKK, HPG, KGK (some of the same that we lived with and fought the Iraqis Military 2002 to 2003, Operation Hotel California). Don't blame us, it is the US Politicians (all Parties) that cannot decide who the enemies or allies are. So we have been here at Afghanistan since General McKiernan, General McChrystal, General Petraeus, and some of our successors will be here decades after the US Military Conventional Warfare Forces leave, 2014.

                      Anyway enough about my ancient History. This is what I observed while at Turkey before:

                      Patriarch Bartholomew Feels "Crucified"

                      http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/17/60minutes/main5990390.shtml?tag=mncol;lst;1

                      Extreme Sarcasm, so sure I know nothing about US Ally Turkey, their fighting against the Kurdistanis, etc..

                        #1.103 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:19 PM EST

                        sandtrich - David--the medications will help you, but you have to take them. All you do is post copy and paste and have endless time to do so.

                        Sure you phony baloney sandtrich. Copy and paste is what you do, as a freudian slip. Notice the mistakes in my posts from previous posts. I am typing this up, since I don't have any administrative assistants.

                        And your failure like your previous copy and paste to Newsvine post#1.102, like before, is proof of YOUR Copy and Paste failed attempt again to start with the irrelevant baloney to denegrate real Facts.

                        I am just waiting for Persevere to start calling you a phony also after he looks at his Vietnam DD-214 as I asked him to, at the information that you do not have as NOT being a Vietnam Era Veteran.

                        • 1 vote
                        #1.104 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:47 PM EST

                        It is my understanding that after WW1, the British and French, literally drew a line in the sand, the Balfor Declaration I think, and on this side of the line is Persia/Iran, 98% Shiites, on the other side of the line Persia/Iraq, 75% Shiites. Enter Sodamn Insane, but he hates Shiites and Iran. And so the stupid geniuses BushCheney decide to invade Iraq and get Sodamn Insane. Why you ask, because it was his turn. Ask yourself what would be a likely outcome for this plan. We kill Iran's strongest enemy, destroy his army then be surprised when Iran's 98% Shiites and Iraq 75% Shiites join back together creating Bushcheneystan as the line in the sand is slowly blown away. Welcome to "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED".

                        • 3 votes
                        #1.105 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:42 PM EST

                        @David -

                        Well I am out of this discussion in relation to the subject matter I have no horse in this race, I know when and where I served I will take a look at the DD-214 lol I never knew that, never would have thought to even look. Well I have not seen others than my own so I take you at your word the stated info is there but I really am not much motivated to even look. Though I did save my old medical card that did state "Vietnam Era" the new ones hold on let me look - Nope there is "service connected" under my photo only for a deuce and a half falling on my back. I did not apply for disability and live with my injury no operation on my spine thank you and keep your money I did ok on my own give it to someone that really needs it.

                        The old cards had a purple V for we so-called "Nam era" and I want to move on...other fish to fry. My only point is I served with American Muslims in our Army and though I have known but a hand few in "the world" they did not go to a Mosque or if so did as I do sporadically attend mass, liked beer and girls just like I..I stopped with the drinking some time ago.

                        I was reading Ali H. Soufan (a Muslim) the FBI counter terrorist interrogator awarded special honors for "breaking" various al-Qaeda operatives without using "torture" his efforts cracked the lies of Kalid and thwarted many intended terrorist operations. I may have miss-read you and if so I apologize. I know it to be true that many (millions) Muslims practice their faith as I do mine, so do in my manner. I don't walk in lock step with the Pope (not even close) or any of the hierarchy of the church the same can be said of those that have an Islamic based faith that I personally have witnessed. That is to say there are dictates in the Bible and the Quran that I find reprehensible and would land us in jail if we followed said respective dictates. I just wanted to raise my children and be a family man and do good I assume they did the same from all appearances we shared these same goals. Which is what I love of America as I also had Jewish friends and they shared my goals as well and practiced their faith as they wished come to think of it I have known more or less Americans of most religions in America I never felt threatened by any.

                        I think you can figure out where I am going with this so enough of this I feel I am chasing my tail, I am aware of the strict fanatics and they are a threat. I want to end this but I remember numerous Muslims that fled Iran after the Shah and they were so proud to be an American my life experience is not as I read your words but I know the world has changed since 9/11 so I end this I have no gusto to discuss this issue.

                        All have a good day or night - Good Bye

                        PS: forgot FBI special agent Soufan's book "The Black Banners" ("the inside story of 9/11 and the War Against al-Qaeda") a good factual read, his work invaluable and an American Muslim....Enough of this I am moving on....

                        • 3 votes
                        #1.106 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:52 PM EST

                        @David #1.103 -

                        I just looked above before logging off, God I would like to do that, and I agree I know of numerous joint co-operative acts of the Turks - Gulf War, NATO other actions as empty rhetoric against our interest but allowing some flying over Turkey...I forget not research this. I do remember Turkish first responders at "ground zero" searching the ruins voicing anti terrorist remarks and yes to your statement I will do my own copy and paste job lol...but only to substantiate (your assertion) the support of the Kurds which is not much appreciated by Turkey (our ally) when bombs and other acts of Kurd terrorism is aimed at them I have felt uneasy....a mixed message and no way to treat a friend...here I use your own words to sum up my feelings on this:

                        "so Don't blame us, it is the US Politicians (all Parties) that cannot decide who the enemies or allies are. So we have been here at Afghanistan since General McKiernan, General McChrystal, General Petraeus, and some of our successors will be here decades after the US Military Conventional Warfare Forces leave, 2014."

                        I concur.....Oh man in reference to your nemesis I have real work not being done, to do as you suggest I would have to go back and read earlier posts...how you guys ended up in a pissing contest I have no idea...I was late to the show...if I have nothing better to do...unlikely...I have to prepare a letter for a civil action and this will take documentation and research. Reading over old posts is not on my "to do list" I REALLY want to log off to go to another site and do my research.

                        If I have spare time will do so but I am logging off and work (money), I must first drive off to pick up paper work from a client and from there work well into the night...sorry I really have real work to do....some other time -

                        You'all Take Care.....Good Night........PEACE

                        • 3 votes
                        #1.107 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:33 PM EST

                        1991 and 2003 Iraqi wars to save the most savage, beastly and bigoted Sunni rulers of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE and some more Sunni rulers were the most idiotic wars resulting in huge losses to the US and allies from all sides.

                        Not just Shiastan. Wait for Kurdistan and probably Sunnistan too!

                          #1.108 - Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:08 AM EST

                          @David....who are you to judge? Give it up. I happen to know Brad. He speaks the truth. He was awarded for his service at his last duty station in 2005. Calm down fella. I think you are about to blow a gasket!!!

                          • 2 votes
                          #1.109 - Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:10 AM EST

                          Nut case David....I served in the Kansas AG, 190th ARW 2001-2005. Before that with Missouri AG, KC 135 AW. Go blow your self!!!

                            #1.110 - Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:29 PM EST
                            Reply
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                            Are we better off now, for having invaded and occupied Iraq?

                            Or would we have been better off had we not occupied Iraq?

                            The Bush Doctrine is the worst USA policy since the birth of the country.

                            • 55 votes
                            #2 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:58 AM EST

                            We have a major constitutional problem. Many presidents, acting on their own, get us into wars with very little thought as to the long run consequences; and congress lets them get away with this. In Iraq, we crushed an enemy of Al-Qaida at great expense and have given Iran an ally. George Bush said that the Iraq war was part of the "War on Terror". It was, but only because he made it so!

                            • 30 votes
                            #2.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:20 AM EST

                            Manipulation usually has unintended consequences.

                            • 20 votes
                            #2.2 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:05 AM EST
                            Comment author avatarBenSneadExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                            The Bush Doctrine is the worst USA policy since the birth of the country

                            I would say that obamacare will turn out to be the worst policy in the history of the United States! Its adverse economic impact will be far more harmful than the 'universal' insurance needs we were promised!

                            • 17 votes
                            #2.3 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:38 AM EST

                            The war resulted in the deaths of many US soldiers and innocent Iraqi's. Healthcare is designed to help sick people. Rexamine your values....

                            • 33 votes
                            #2.4 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:43 AM EST

                            Sorry Ben. That's pretty weak!

                            • 22 votes
                            #2.5 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:44 AM EST

                            Ben

                            you need to get over it and move on. You are being brainwashed now by the teabaggers.

                            • 19 votes
                            #2.6 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:03 PM EST

                            Ben, comparing Obamacare with the Iraq war? Really shows your depth. I bet you are enjoying your tea whenever you read about the needless loss of young American lives and not counting thousands who have been maimed for life. The Healthcare reform pushed through by this administration will never cost as much as how much we have spent in Iraq and how much it is going to cost taking care of young wounded Iraq-veterans for the next 50 or 60 years.

                            The question that needs to be asked is - Is it worth it? What benefit did the US get from this senseless war? And comparing this with Obamacare? Shows a total lack of understanding.

                            • 27 votes
                            #2.7 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:06 PM EST

                            Are we better off now, for having invaded and occupied Iraq?

                            No.

                            Or would we have been better off had we not occupied Iraq?

                            Yes.

                            The Bush Doctrine is the worst USA policy since the birth of the country.

                            Definitely in the top 5.

                            • 18 votes
                            #2.8 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 PM EST

                            Quit trolling Ben. Obama is not the topic on this vine. I'm sure you can find another one to post your snarky nonsense.

                            • 10 votes
                            #2.9 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:35 PM EST

                            I would say that obamacare will turn out to be the worst policy in the history of the United States!

                            You're right. We could have had a national universal healthcare system if there hadn't been for all the drivel, lies and nonsense from the right.

                            What we have now, no-one, least of all Obama wanted. It's a lousy compromise.

                            • 10 votes
                            #2.10 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:44 PM EST

                            I'd say we've had two bad presidents in a row for the last 11 years. Are we going to make it 16 or find somebody new?

                            • 3 votes
                            #2.11 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:08 PM EST

                            What you ask is a rhetorical question. There are too many variables and too many alternate "futures" had we not done it. Looking at the situation in Iraq now, in a vacuum, it would appear to have been a moderate failure, but relatively immaterial within the context of U.S. history. Take for example the Viet Nam War (yes dammit it was war). The dammage to our nation as a result of that debacle was exponentially greater than Iraq. By all accounts, Viet Nam was a collosal failure. We didn't even win. We lost more than 10 times the number of soldiers (my father one of them) and who knows how many times more wounded. For what? Nothing! What we do not know and cannot ever know in either case is what would have happened had we taken no action. One could argue that by doing nothing in Viet Nam communism would have continued to run completely amok. A questionable premise in my view. On the other hand, it would seem much more logical that we established a precedent of aggressive reaction to being attacked (think Pearl Harbor). We have not been attacked in any meaningful way since 9-11. Would we have had we not gone to Irag or Afghanistan? Who can say. Ten years on, it's easy to look back and say it was a mistake. Perhaps it was. Either way, Congress acted in concert with Bush with ALL the information laid before them. Let's quit pointing fingers and move on. There's plenty of blame (or credit) to go around. And, plenty of more difficult and challenges problems lay before us.

                            • 2 votes
                            #2.12 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:22 PM EST

                            We Can Do It, I agree completely. The "Bush Doctrine" not only made our president and his team of vultures War Criminals, it made our nation complicit in that war crime. The War Hawks in Congress, the spineless who wouldn't stand up to them, and the countless millions in this country who wanted to punish anyone for 9/11, whether they were guilty or not, are responsible for the deaths of 150,000 Iraqis ( mostly innocent ), displaced millions of Christians, the loss of world respect for our country, and the precedent that because we have the firepower, we can unilaterally and preemptively invade another country because some douchebag with his finger on the trigger wants to "cowboy up". Disgusting. So much for American Exceptionalism.

                            • 2 votes
                            #2.13 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:28 PM EST

                            CAMPAIGN RHETORIC

                            Ha ha ha...there were WMDs (oops cant ask dead Kurds though can we?). And Bush isn't in the White House any more...not for almost 4 years..

                            So who's fault is it that things are screwed up over there??? (still blaming Bush...pathetic)

                            • 1 vote
                            #2.14 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:09 PM EST

                            I am sure when Iraq turn US tv and see Gay couple getting married and getting sergery / removing their sex! I bet they say the same thing about us! is this the country who invaded us is becoming today!!!!!!!!

                            HA Ha Ha

                            • 2 votes
                            #2.15 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:27 PM EST

                            G W Bush at the expense of our troops and treasure went into this war with one thing in mind .. Jobs for Halliburton .. now you have another crop of GOP/TP candidates that want to go after another country Iran .. Romney the brave said under his leadership Iran will not have the ability to make atom bombs .. basically he will nuke them .. Another GOP idiot

                            • 1 vote
                            #2.16 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:50 PM EST

                            Hay Jim..what ya think is gonna happen in Libya dude?? Your single minded cause won't get anywhere here. Obama TOTALLY out of the news ON PURPOSE for the last month and laying low so his mudslinging henchmen (you) can do their dirty work. Shame

                              #2.17 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:12 PM EST

                              Of course this waste plan all along. It's not as if our leaders didn't know that Shiites were the majority group in Iraqi society, and that they had been brutally repressed by a secular dictator and by the Sunni minority. Our goal from the beginning was to topple Saddam's regime and allow the Iraqi people to freely elect their own government.

                              Ten years ago we knew that if we succeeded and Iraq had free elections, the candidates favored by the Shiite majority would win. We predicted this, encouraged it and allowed it to happen -- an Iraq that is much more like Iran, and much more friendly with Iran. Mission accomplished, all objectives achieved.

                                #2.18 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:21 PM EST

                                justoneguy

                                Hay Jim..what ya think is gonna happen in Libya dude?? Your single minded cause won't get anywhere here. Obama TOTALLY out of the news ON PURPOSE for the last month and laying low so his mudslinging henchmen (you) can do their dirty work. Shame

                                Mudslinging? Really? Are you denying that Romney publicly stated that under his Presidency Iraq would not be allowed to build a bomb? Or is it that you now trying to rewrite history before the ink is even dry?

                                  #2.19 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:29 PM EST

                                  I believe Ben was simply comparing policies (and stating his opinion as to which he believes to be the lesser of two evils as is the case in this situation) rather than trying to compare Obamacare to the Iraq War itself. Really, some of you might try to remove your heads from your asses long enough to thoroughly consider a person's post before posting your rebuttal.

                                    #2.20 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:35 PM EST

                                    Exactly who is collapsing the comments? According to the code of honor only the author of the article can do that and he/she can not do that if the comment pertains to the article or another comment made about the article.

                                    I want to see ALL THE COMMENTS. Positive and negative.

                                      #2.21 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:05 PM EST

                                      We can do it, DrRWKline, james-4018786,

                                      Try again.

                                      Iraq:

                                      US LAW, H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" with US Congressional Appropriations, as demanded by President Clinton during his State of the Union Address to a joint Session of US Congress, 1998. Justification WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, Section 2 "Findings" of US Law H.R.4655 (scroll down to Section 2 "Findings"):

                                      http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1057063/posts

                                      After all the lesser means of US Law H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" (money still being appropriated by US Congress, 1998 to 2011, the US Law does NOT go away until the US Law is Accomplished). US Congress uses the Final Option, the US Military, by DECLARING WAR WITH IRAQ, with US Law, 2002 Iraqi War Resolution with US Congressional Appropriations. The only valid excuse for a US President to NOT enforce a US Law, is if there is no money (US Congressional Appropriations).

                                      US Declaration of War With Iraq, 2002 Iraqi War Resolution:

                                      http://uspolitics.about.com/od/wariniraq/a/jt_resolution.htm

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #2.22 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:56 PM EST

                                      Never needed to go into Iraq in 2002. No fly zone of 8 years and the destruction of Iraq's offensive military by Schartzkopf had em under control. Pres Bush exploded his own myth of WMD when he made that video in the oval office looking behind the furniture and curtains, then to the camera and stated "nope, not there" after each "search". He was Cmdr in Chief and at that very moment boys were dying or getting their legs blown off under his orders and he was joking about it in the oval office. It may have been about oil, it definitely was about the military top brass creating career opportunities for themselves both in the Pentagon and with the Mil contractors they hired on with after "retiring" from the military. Ike said the Military industrial complex would be big trouble. WMD was a Gulf of Tonken lie to get us in there so the real purposes could be addressed. There was no WMD in Iraq and there was no Gulf of Tonken incident. But if they set up another one tomorrow the patriotic masses will fall for it all over again, get the flags out of the closet and on the porches, and send their sons off to meet the enemy. And the top brass and military corporation Execs will celebrate with new mansions and more exotic travel.

                                        #2.23 - Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:08 PM EST
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                                        If they want to live in the 2nd Century BC, let them. If they want to kill each other, let them.

                                        It's not our problem. We aren't the world's police, nor should we be.

                                        • 27 votes
                                        #3 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:05 AM EST

                                        Then why did we send 4,500 of our people to die there? Sure was a lot of popular support for it.

                                        • 9 votes
                                        #3.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:34 AM EST

                                        We sent them there because the President (Bush) fabricated "evidence" that Saddam had biological and weapons of mass destruction and was in cahoots with Osama Bin Laden. Last I heard neither were proven true.

                                        It's easy to sway popular support when you lie. Oldest rule in politics.

                                        • 28 votes
                                        #3.2 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:44 AM EST

                                        Iraq was a dumb war. Much like Vietnam. Afghanistan was not but the tactical and strategic way it was carried out sucked! Precision strikes is the answer in that terrain. Not mass military presence. We can't stay out of conflicts outside our own country because crazy people like Hitler, who tickle racist bigotted ears, gain strength and kill people. We have enough of that in our own country we need to control. Romney is even using slogans popular with the KKK yet he may become our next President? Best get out and vote and make sure to keep the nuts away from the White House.

                                        • 15 votes
                                        #3.3 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:55 AM EST

                                        Dear Cyclometh:

                                        4,500 dead plus lots more badly wounded and permanently disabled. Those facts are why I am so pissed that we were in Iraq. We don't need to lose any more of our people for that loser country. We shouldn't even have an embassy and the "contractor" presense that we will be having when (most) of the military leaves.

                                        Oh, and then there is the financial cost. My opinion is that this is one of the big causes for some of our financial woes. Not the only cause but a big part. Why not have a war tax on upper incomers to pay for this fiasco? Talk about handouts to people who don't deserve them - just give them pallets of money. I'll take one too!

                                        • 7 votes
                                        #3.4 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:04 PM EST

                                        @NorthernLights:

                                        The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan coupled with the tax cuts on wealthy Americans are definitely a leading cause in the current US Government deficit. I might be wrong, I can't really recall a time in which the US Government actually cut taxes during wartime.

                                        I'd have to say the financial crisis itself was caused more by banks making shady (but not illegal, unfortunately) and unregulated deals that fell through. But this is another issue.

                                        • 7 votes
                                        #3.5 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:08 PM EST

                                        Cyclometh, popular with who? What I remember is most people saying "huh?" We might as well have invaded Canada for all the sense it made to go into Iraq.

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #3.6 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:11 PM EST

                                        We aren't the world's police, nor should we be

                                        You might want to tell that to the Navy. I shudder every time I hear their new slogan, "A global force for good." Come to think of it, though, they're really downplaying that one. Maybe even they realize how bad that one sounds.

                                          #3.7 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:18 PM EST

                                          CYCLOMETH

                                          dont know who you were talking to but i have not, in 10 years heard anyone say they supported that war.

                                          W was in it only to do what his daddy did not accomplish, used wmd's as an excuse, then handed no bid contracts worth many millions to haliburton.

                                          glad our troops are coming home, sorry for those who died in that sand pit.

                                          • 6 votes
                                          #3.8 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:26 PM EST

                                          Anna, I'm no republican but I'm just curious. What KKK slogan did he use?

                                            #3.9 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:34 PM EST

                                            I find it interesting how things are overlooked by the media, No mention of the ship containing several tonnes of yellow cake uranium that was found in Iraq and shipped to Canada. Also Iraq did have chemical weapons the reason you didn't hear about those is most of them had Made in America on them. Remember the Iran and Iraq war?? We supplied Iraq with their chemical weapons. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. There are a lot of things that happen out there that our precious media is not informed about. Personally I think we should have done the job during the first gulf war or we should have gone back under Pres. Clintons watch when the Iraqis were just thumbing there nose at all of the UN sanctions but he was afraid of putting boots on the ground due to public opinion. That is why he launched tommahawks on empty camps in A'stan and hit a pharmicutical factory. Afraid to put eyes on target. But it is real easy to armchair quarterback the past what we must do is look at what is coming and the middle east in general is not looking good for us regardless of what we give them or take from them we are still nothing more than lowly infidels to be used and taken advantage of because we are not part of their grand plan.

                                            • 3 votes
                                            #3.10 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:44 PM EST

                                            Lou-315908

                                            I find it interesting how things are overlooked by the media, No mention of the ship containing several tonnes of yellow cake uranium that was found in Iraq and shipped to Canada.

                                            Link?

                                            Also Iraq did have chemical weapons the reason you didn't hear about those is most of them had Made in America on them. Remember the Iran and Iraq war?? We supplied Iraq with their chemical weapons.

                                            We sure did. Nothing changes the fact that there were no weapons of mass destruction found after invading for Gulf War II ... the primary cited reason for the f*cking war.

                                            The enemy of my enemy is my friend. There are a lot of things that happen out there that our precious media is not informed about.

                                            I blame Reagan and the deregulation of the news media.

                                            Personally I think we should have done the job during the first gulf war or we should have gone back under Pres. Clintons watch when the Iraqis were just thumbing there nose at all of the UN sanctions but he was afraid of putting boots on the ground due to public opinion. That is why he launched tommahawks on empty camps in A'stan and hit a pharmicutical factory. Afraid to put eyes on target.

                                            Why go back in?

                                            But it is real easy to armchair quarterback the past what we must do is look at what is coming and the middle east in general is not looking good for us regardless of what we give them or take from them we are still nothing more than lowly infidels to be used and taken advantage of because we are not part of their grand plan.

                                            "They" = ?

                                              #3.11 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:11 PM EST

                                              I am sure when Iraq turn US tv and see Gay couple getting married and getting sergery / removing their sex! I bet they say the same thing about us! is this the country who invade us is becoming today!!!!!!!!

                                              We are no better than them, I think it s better if China invade US and show us what to do like how to save money and make money and not have live having credit, that will help a lot what you guys say?

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #3.12 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:45 PM EST

                                              The answer is multiple OIL, ENERGY and if you attack the U.S. or its allies as Iraq did attack Kuwait, then the country pays for it. However both Bush and Obama are idiots. They tied the arms of the military and let it drag out. As neither president was/is intelligent, they didn't use the presence to set up political pro western parties and democracies to take over after the U.S. left.

                                              See stupidity is not a political uniqueness.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #3.13 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:10 PM EST

                                              Ruken - We sent them there because the President (Bush) fabricated "evidence" that Saddam had biological and weapons of mass destruction

                                              Really, who said this:

                                              Together we must also confront the new hazards of chemical and biological weapons, and the outlaw states, terrorists and organized criminals seeking to acquire them. Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade, and much of his nation's wealth, not on providing for the Iraqi people, but on developing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. The United Nations weapons inspectors have done a truly remarkable job, finding and destroying more of Iraq's arsenal than was destroyed during the entire gulf war. Now, Saddam Hussein wants to stop them from completing their mission. I know I speak for everyone in this chamber, Republicans and Democrats, when I say to Saddam Hussein, "You cannot defy the will of the world", and when I say to him, "You have used weapons of mass destruction before; we are determined to deny you the capacity to use them again.

                                              Demanding that US Congress pass US Law, H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998". Justification Section 2 "Findings", Weapons of Mass Destruction.

                                              http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1057063/posts

                                              Has the US Education System failed this badly. I really want to know for information for a paper I am writing.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #3.14 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:16 PM EST

                                              But, cynically, does anyone outside of Iraq care anymore?

                                              I know I don't.

                                                #3.15 - Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:00 AM EST
                                                Reply
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                                                We can thank Bush's stupidity for doubling the size of Iran.

                                                • 37 votes
                                                Reply#4 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:15 AM EST

                                                you supported the invasion of Kuwait and the missile attack on Israel or do you base your opinions on the moment or is it all about you, lol.

                                                  #4.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:31 PM EST

                                                  gizmowiz - We can thank Bush's stupidity for doubling the size of Iran.

                                                  Wrong President. President Obama gave Iran Carte Blanche to do anything (and they did, and still are), with his 2009 Improved Relations with Iran Policy.

                                                  The now surrounded US Ally Saudi Arabia, as recent events, West Egypt (Muslim Brotherhoods negotiations with Iran before the "Egyptian Revolution"), North Iraq (Iranian Allies Kurdistanis and Shiites control all the wealth of Iraq, Oil), East Iranians long range anti ship missile batteries to control all the shipping (Saudi Oil Supertankers to US) of the Persian Gulf and Gulf of Oman, South US Abandons previous Ally President of Yemen.

                                                  King of Saudi Arabia pissed, "President Obama gave Iraq as a Gift to Iran on a Golden Platter".

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #4.2 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:33 PM EST
                                                  Reply

                                                  Once again, who the hell cares how they live. Let those people live the way they want too. Just be sure to keep them over there and keep America free. Now pull the rest of the troops and get back to cleaning up American and it's corrupt government.

                                                  • 8 votes
                                                  Reply#5 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:19 AM EST

                                                  Thanks to the Bush-Cheney fake war we have an even more unstable ME now...everyone will notice that there aren't any flag waving chest thumping chickenhwaks on here demanding we stay and fight...they were invited to suit up earlier and go fight so that must be where they are all at...or still alseep in their trailers

                                                  • 17 votes
                                                  Reply#6 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:22 AM EST

                                                  To all the people who demonized me and called me unpatriotic leading up to the war. I told you so. hahaha. You cannot defend Bush's policy. Not only was the war a lie, a waste of money, time and lives (except for Cheney's company), now Iraq is becomming an ally of a true enemy, IRAN. Thanks conservatives for showing your lack of clarity on world views, again.

                                                  • 31 votes
                                                  Reply#7 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:41 AM EST

                                                  The war was the beginning of the "Arab Spring", that you probably love and would'nt have happen without the war.....and Clinton, Kerry and your Dumbocrat leaders all signed off on it, so blow the "lies" garbage out your arse......you don't know what your talking about.....

                                                  • 5 votes
                                                  #7.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:37 AM EST

                                                  NYCGUY Yes lets blame the Democrats and Republicans ( I do believe if certain Republicans knew the truth they to would have never voted to take action McCain being one of them) in Congress for not realizing that Bush-Cheney would go as far as to bold face lie to them and the country about "indisputable evidence that Saddam has and was getting ready to use biological weapons against it own citizens and countries such as Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia and was developing if not has already developed Nuclear capabilities" They went as far as to send Colin Powell to the U.N to speak to and show fake evidence to the world community proof of their accusations. So NYCGUY I am sure you were one of those calling people like President (then Senator) Obama pinkos, unamerican, traitors for opposing attacking Iraq who now have to eat crow and along with the rest of us face an Iran that is stronger and more influential to the powers of 10 all due to the fact that Bush didn't know what he was doing just followed Cheney blindly into a war we should have never started. Don't forget that others in the Bath party (Huseins political party) of Iraq had offered to remove Hussein from power if we didn't attack but not attacking wouldn't fill the defense contractors and Cheney's pockets with gold so attack was the only option bush-cheney would look at. So sir it is you that either doesn't know what he is talking about or has decided to stick his head back in the sand (are you hear no see no or speak no evil or all three). You ignorance is disgusting!

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  #7.2 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 PM EST

                                                  nycguy

                                                  99% of the republicans and only 44% of the democrats signed for the war , ALL based in false information and lies Bushy told to them.

                                                  • 5 votes
                                                  #7.3 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:30 PM EST

                                                  The war was the beginning of the Arab spring? Now that is REALLY stretching it.

                                                  • 4 votes
                                                  #7.4 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:32 PM EST

                                                  Thanks for verifying your complete lack of intelligence.

                                                    #7.5 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:27 PM EST
                                                    Reply
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                                                    Welcome to Sh-it where children play next to Sh-it posters and flags... Who in America gives a damn?

                                                    I'd like to see our American Press put pressure on Washington to get the close to two trillion dollars back that ALL American taxpayers (including big business) dumped into the Iraqi cesspool.

                                                    The average American doesn’t give a Sh-it about what’s going on in China, Iran, Iraq or Russia. They’re too busy worrying about how they’ll be able to make their next mortgage payment or how they’ll be able to afford to pay their heating bill.

                                                    • 13 votes
                                                    Reply#8 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:48 AM EST

                                                    The media will not put pressure on congress . Why because five multi- national corporations own and control the media and congress . They are a big part of the problem as are the banks and wall street .

                                                    bob

                                                    • 16 votes
                                                    #8.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:09 AM EST

                                                    bob1/28

                                                    Bob, I agree 100% with your statement. However, you're forgetting one important thing. The media conglomerates are dependant on "advertising dollars" to survive. If everyone boycotted one product or banking institution at a time, it would be a matter of "TIME" before they would have to change their tune.

                                                    • 6 votes
                                                    #8.2 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:32 AM EST

                                                    Who in America gives a damn?

                                                    I'll tell you who- the familes of nearly five thousand dead soldiers do. Of course, nobody else does and probably wishes it would all just go away so they don't have to think or care about what this country did and what it lost.

                                                    • 8 votes
                                                    #8.3 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:37 AM EST

                                                    Dear Cyclemeth:

                                                    I care that there are "nearly 5,000 dead soldiers". I am pissed that they had to die for lies told by Bush/Cheney and for a Republican jobs plan. Time to string up Bush and Cheney, turn them into pinatas. (where's that wavy "n" character?)

                                                    • 6 votes
                                                    #8.4 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:09 PM EST

                                                    Cyclometh

                                                    I hate to be the one to break your bubble; however, every one of our American boys that gave their life fighting in Iraq, died in VAIN. Who did they die FOR??????

                                                    I suggest you wake up and smell the sh-it being dished out by the Republicans and big business; they fought and died to protect American business intrests in the area; for nothing else...

                                                    • 10 votes
                                                    #8.5 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:35 PM EST

                                                    Hannibel Lechter, they died for YOU. What an ignorant statement. We'll see how your colors change when it is your father, brother, son or daughter who gets killed at war. Now, crawl back under the rock you came out from under before you disrespected our military and brave soldiers who were killed in action.

                                                    • 7 votes
                                                    #8.6 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:46 PM EST

                                                    If anybody disrespected them it was one man - BUSH.

                                                    • 10 votes
                                                    #8.7 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:13 PM EST

                                                    Amused In The Midwest

                                                    I'm glad that you're Amused In The Midwest... Your response is certainly comical.

                                                    I'll bet anything, that not one single soldier thought of me as they lied dying.

                                                    As General George S. Patton himself once said:

                                                    "It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived"

                                                    "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

                                                    • 9 votes
                                                    #8.8 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:23 PM EST
                                                    Reply

                                                    I guess Halliburton, and thus, Cheney, made lots of money out of this.

                                                    Put the rest of the US into huge debt, and now has basically hurt our interests rather than helped them.

                                                    But, hey, it was really all about making big money for the right people, and screw everyone else, wasn't it?

                                                    If it wasn't, then I'd like to know HOW it wasn't?

                                                    • 24 votes
                                                    Reply#9 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:26 AM EST

                                                    ESR-Every Soldiers Responsibility

                                                    The year I was in Viet Nam saw the undoing of my character. I was disassembled by the war and have spent the past 39 years putting myself back together. The year I was in Viet Nam was July 70-July 71. One year at the age of 19 that would forever change me. I watched and participated in a growing GI resistance to the war. One day in my company three combat medics quit the war. We refused to go out on any more missions and announced our intentions to the First Sgt and Lieutenant. High on binoctal and alcohol we came to blows in the CQ. For striking a superior and mutiny we were arrested and thrown in the stockade. We were all decorated combat veterans but we had had enough of their war. Scotty and Nick refused to return to duty and served time in LBJ(Long Binh Jail) and received BCD(Bad Conduct Discharges) which stripped them of all veterans benefits and constitutional rights. I returned to duty but continued passive resistance. I kept men who were short(about to DEROS home) on sick leave so they were not sent out to the field. I falsified medical reports to keep men out of combat. In the end I too was discharged . I made a choice to retain my human shape and not descend into the Dark.

                                                    Back in the World(the US) there was a growing body of politically radicalized veterans. Viet Nam Veterans against the War had over 50,000 members and the GI coffee house movement was widespread. The Winter Soldier hearings put a face on the atrocities and massacre’s and showcased the pain and rage that was twisting the spirit of the armed forces. We in the armed forces at the time regarded ourselves as citizen soldiers. I was an enlistee, RA all the Way, regular Army and volunteered for Viet Nam. I enlisted out of a sense of duty as a calling. It was not nor ever should be regarded as a JOB. The current professional volunteer armed forces has become a contracted killing machine, a constitutional abomination. I have begun to question who it is loyal too. I swore an oath, …” to protect and defend the US constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic.” I have never released myself from that oath.

                                                    Here is what has become of us. Blackwater(Xe), DyneCorp, Triple Canopy and Hallibuton KBR have become the mercenary assistants of the US Armed Forces. Iraq Veterans against the War in concert with Veterans for Peace and VVAW have exposed the corrupt relationship between the Pentagon and the military industrial complex. Former veterans of the US armed forces have contracted out as body guards and hired killers to the CIA and State Dept expecting to be cared for and protected by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. They do not deserve nor have earned it. They and their corporate employers are subject to the Geneva conventions and International Law under the Nuremberg rulings.

                                                    Here is what we can do. We can support and advocate GI resistance. We can constantly put the cost of the war to our economy in the public eye at every and all city council or legislative hearings. Go to icasualties.org and read the names of the American dead in public. We in the Underground can bring the truth above ground.

                                                    Dave Ionno

                                                    Veteran for Peace

                                                    • 20 votes
                                                    Reply#10 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:31 AM EST

                                                    Thank you for your service Dave. Though I don't support war unless you defend your homeland, I support the sacrifice you and your fellow veterans have made to support the United States of America.

                                                    There is an old saying: Old men make war and young men fight it.

                                                    We should always try to remember that most war is about nothing but money--to make the rich richer and poor spill their blood for it.

                                                    • 9 votes
                                                    #10.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:06 PM EST

                                                    You missed the point of Dave's post. We have now let the Republicans begin the process of privatizing our military. Once there are enough Contractors, not loyal to the US but loyal to Halliburton, how long do you think it will be before something comes up and the contractors are turned on the citizens? The US isn't done in Iraq. There are 17,000 para-military contractors there now, on our payroll, to protect the largest "embassy" in the world. This privatization effort should be stopped in its tracks. No part of the military, save cooking and cleaning, should be subjected to "privatization". First steps to real War For Profit.

                                                    • 5 votes
                                                    #10.2 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:52 PM EST

                                                    Dave: to you and the thousands like you, my deepest respect. I also remember with respect the young men of the Viet Nam era who either refused to be drafted or who, once drafted, refused to fight. They also sacrificed their lives for their moral convictions. It seems to my despairing mother's heart that the forces of corporate greed and its implementation through political imperialism cannot be curtailed. American citizenry is increasingly ignorant and selfish, too, so can be influenced by foolish and duplicitous manipulative rhetoric like "weapons of mass destruction" and "gay marriage" and "socialized medicine" and "class warfare" to vote away their rights. This conflict of "isms" in the world of Islam is just another aspect of people being played by the power brokers. What does it matter if you believe Mohammed left his ministry to one or another of his followers? Whatever happened to the ideas he brought to the people of inner peace, the personal "jihad" against spiritual weakness within, the dignity and rights of women, etc? As usual, the only question to answer is "who benefits?". As you say, corporations and government power brokers exploiting the ignorant.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #10.3 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:11 PM EST

                                                    Dave the Rave - if your first paragraph is the truth then you should have got a BCD too. People like you make me sick....and I was there!

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #10.4 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:12 PM EST

                                                    Sloppy Joe easy to say if you were not there. If you were it is a different story but if you were sitting stateside or elsewhere you have no right and are totally out of line as you are the one making people sick. Those who refuse to learn the lessons of history usually force other into the same mistakes your post makes me think you would have no problem sending our kids into another Vietnam while sitting in front of your TV calling out others for what is your disillusioned vision of cowardice. I had an Uncle who served in Vietnam and survived his most vivid memory was of guarding a Viet Cong prisoner who told him 'I just don't understand Americans why can't you just leave us be all we want is to live our lives and grow our rice". You sir make me sick, Dave thanks for first volunteering at a time when it was not easy to volunteer and then taking your oath serious enough to face prison to do the right thing!

                                                      #10.5 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:40 PM EST

                                                      Thank you for your service in Viet Nam, and your moral courage to act according to your conscience. The moral conscience in America is blinded by the power that religion and corporations hold over individual persons and the political process. The American Spring has yet to blossom in restoring the rights of human beings. But it can not only be an American Spring, but a global awakening to the oppression of corporate greed and religious intolerance, otherwise those who practice peace will become victims because of their vulnerability. Civil disobedience and non-violent resistance will move the intractable, because the justification for force is the suppression of violence, and if there is no violence, the justification will fail. I too volunteered and served in Viet Nam and have a somewhat different perspective.

                                                      Ho Chi Minh had written the Vietnamese Constitution based on the American model and had sought American support for independence (from France) because he thought that America would embrace its history of opposing colonial rule. We fought against a war of liberation that could have been completely avoided had we not been blinded by our self-righteousness and belief in our exceptionalism.

                                                        #10.6 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:46 PM EST

                                                        dave the rave-1272020

                                                        Tell me Dave, when you were in Vietnam; did you leave any children behind???

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        #10.7 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:14 PM EST

                                                        Thank you Dave.

                                                          #10.8 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:42 PM EST
                                                          Reply
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                                                          NO...this is what the COMMUNITY ORGANIZER IN CHIEF wanted and got.

                                                          • 3 votes
                                                          Reply#11 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:33 AM EST

                                                          Concerned in Florida: President Obama was a US Senator when the US attacked Iraq. You should be concerned about your lack of knowledge. It sounds like you've been drinking too much water in Central Florida contaminated with phosphate slurry!

                                                          • 9 votes
                                                          #11.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:41 AM EST

                                                          Typical Florida thinking (oxymoron).

                                                          • 7 votes
                                                          #11.2 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:47 AM EST

                                                          So you'd have been happier if Obama had ignored the withdrawal date set by Bush? Oh, wait, what am I thinking? You're just one of those who take any opportunity to criticize Obama, justified or not.

                                                          • 6 votes
                                                          #11.3 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:25 PM EST

                                                          concerned in Central FL

                                                          NO...this is what the COMMUNITY ORGANIZER IN CHIEF wanted and got.

                                                          God I hope you're not old enough to vote or too old to get to the polls. You blame this on Obama yet it was GW Bush that set this time-table. Where, I wonder, do you get your news? Probably from the same outlet (orifice) you get your opinion.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #11.4 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:45 PM EST
                                                          Reply

                                                          The Iraq war was a monumental mistake. It played right into the hands of Iran and has made both Iraq and Iran a more dangerous enemy of the US. The hyping of the imminent threat of nuclear WMD by George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice and even Colin Powell convinced the US Congress and the American people of this preposterous lie. Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks and the attack on Iraq diverted our focus on the true culprits, the extremists and funding originating in Saudi Arabia. It was no coincidence that the majority of 9/11 terrorists were Saudis. The Bin Ladens who were living in Boston were allowed by President Bush to return to Saudi Arabia within hours of the 9/11 attacks while hundreds of airliners were stranded in Canada and elsewhere. Another unexplained coincidence. This war still smells bad.

                                                          • 12 votes
                                                          Reply#12 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:39 AM EST

                                                          Hitobito,

                                                          Read these US Laws. Then after you see the written FACTS, we will discuss who LIED.

                                                          Iraq:

                                                          US LAW, H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" with US Congressional Appropriations, as demanded by President Clinton during his State of the Union Address to a joint Session of US Congress, 1998. Justification WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, Section 2 "Findings" of US Law H.R.4655 (scroll down to Section 2 "Findings"):

                                                          http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1057063/posts

                                                          After all the lesser means of US Law H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" (money still being appropriated by US Congress, 1998 to 2011, the US Law does NOT go away until the US Law is Accomplished). US Congress uses the Final Option, the US Military, by DECLARING WAR WITH IRAQ, with US Law, 2002 Iraqi War Resolution with US Congressional Appropriations. The only valid excuse for a US President to NOT enforce a US Law, is if there is no money (US Congressional Appropriations).

                                                          US Declaration of War With Iraq, 2002 Iraqi War Resolution:

                                                          http://uspolitics.about.com/od/wariniraq/a/jt_resolution.htm

                                                          READ PAGE FOUR ALL THOSE D D D D D D DD D DD D D D D D D D DDD DD D D ARE NOT R RR RR RR RR

                                                            #12.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:52 PM EST
                                                            Reply

                                                            Americans didn't want what they got with "O-Bungle-stan." either. Welcome to the wonderful world of Incompetency on both sides of the Atlantic.

                                                            • 3 votes
                                                            Reply#13 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:40 AM EST

                                                            Please, grow up.

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #13.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:56 PM EST
                                                            Reply
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                                                            Shows the sheer stupidity of Bush and Cheney, they had no concept of Iraqi society and believed the bs the ex-patriot Iraqis told them. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about the area could have foretold the outcome of this invasion and destruction of Saddam's government. A "democratic" Iraq can only end up in Shi'ite control as they are the majority of the population. Duuuuuuh.

                                                            • 13 votes
                                                            Reply#14 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:42 AM EST

                                                            They knew exactly what they were doing (at least Cheney and Rove did) and they made a boat load of money from it. However, they should've been hanged along side of Saddam!

                                                            • 6 votes
                                                            #14.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:51 AM EST

                                                            Cheney knew. go back and look at his statements on Desert Storm and his reasons for not wanting to stay in Iraq then.

                                                            • 3 votes
                                                            #14.2 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:47 PM EST

                                                            More Political Partisan Non Factual Reelection Sound Bites.

                                                            Read these US Laws. Then after you see the written FACTS, we will discuss who LIED.

                                                            Iraq:

                                                            US LAW, H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" with US Congressional Appropriations, as demanded by President Clinton during his State of the Union Address to a joint Session of US Congress, 1998. Justification WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, Section 2 "Findings" of US Law H.R.4655 (scroll down to Section 2 "Findings"):

                                                            http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1057063/posts

                                                            After all the lesser means of US Law H.R.4655 "Iraqis Liberation Act of 1998" (money still being appropriated by US Congress, 1998 to 2011, the US Law does NOT go away until the US Law is Accomplished). US Congress uses the Final Option, the US Military, by DECLARING WAR WITH IRAQ, with US Law, 2002 Iraqi War Resolution with US Congressional Appropriations. The only valid excuse for a US President to NOT enforce a US Law, is if there is no money (US Congressional Appropriations).

                                                            US Declaration of War With Iraq, 2002 Iraqi War Resolution:

                                                            http://uspolitics.about.com/od/wariniraq/a/jt_resolution.htm

                                                            READ PAGE FOUR ALL THOSE D D D D D D DD D DD D D D D D D D DDD DD D D ARE NOT R RR RR RR RR

                                                            humm must be doing something wrong usually when confronted with the written Facts (US Laws) most Newsvine posters start with the name calling.

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #14.3 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:56 PM EST
                                                            Reply

                                                            Let's not forget the real reason Bush/Cheney invaded Iraq at the cost of $1 Trillion tax dollars and over 4,400 American lives.

                                                            Fox News -- Greenspan: Oil the Prime Motive for Iraq War
                                                            America's elder statesman of finance, Alan Greenspan, has shaken the White House by declaring that the prime motive for the war in Iraq was oil.
                                                            http://tinyurl.com/2726hs

                                                            Bush gives new reason for Iraq war
                                                            Says US must prevent oil fields from falling into hands of terrorists
                                                            http://tinyurl.com/9l3ru

                                                            • 10 votes
                                                            Reply#15 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:43 AM EST

                                                            but the United States doesn't get oil from Iran. Europe does so it's money, money, money for big oil and therefore grima wormtongue cheney and his buddy Theobush.

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #15.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:09 PM EST

                                                            Durt.......this war was entirely about securing the Iraqi oil fields for the benefit of western oil companies, most here cannot see this as the huge wealth transfer that it was....laying the cost entirely on the American taxpayer while banks,the oil companies and the war profiteers raked in insane profits. The Americans could give a rats ass as to which religion or political party is in power as long as it is compliant with US interests........The embassies are in place. the military bases are finished and the oil is flowing.....nothing else matters....

                                                              #15.2 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:41 PM EST

                                                              fb-1473462 - Durt.......this war was entirely about securing the Iraqi oil fields for the benefit of western oil companies,

                                                              Well, don't most claim that Bush said that the Iraqis Oil would pay for the Liberation of Iraq for decades?

                                                              Well that is not going to happen as "President Obama gave Iraq as a gift to Iran on a Golden Platter" according to the King of Saudi Arabia, and he should know being right next door. So as a result the Allies of Iran, the Chinese and Russian Federation 2010 got the Northern and Southern Iraqis Oil Field Contracts.

                                                                #15.3 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:04 PM EST
                                                                Reply
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                                                                What Bush wanted? What Bush wanted?? Does anybody believe that this smirky fool wanted anything other than to prove his was bigger'n daddy's, what with all of his lies, misinformation, and downright deception fed to the American people? Condy Rice can say what she wishes: I think this guy will go down in history as the dumbest bozo ever EVER to occupy the White House! And nine years later we're still paying for this Texiss idiot's playing at war with Afghanistan, Pakistan, and a newly energized Iran, thousands dead in the military, hundreds of thousands of civilian non-combatants bloody and dead as collateral damage. How much blood? How much money? God, did the Amurkian people ever deserve what the Supreme Court gave 'em when they rigged the election in smirky's favor! Generations from now will still be paying for the Bush wars.

                                                                • 17 votes
                                                                Reply#16 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:46 AM EST

                                                                No, no no. We were supposed to stay there with our military until the shiiittties and the sunnies like each other and get along. We should have set up a government w/ equal Sunni and shiiitttiie power and then police it perpetuity. Winning the war isn't enough...we have to change their hearts and minds, and until they change, we can't win. Because that strategy is what prolongs the war the longest, is frankly impossible to do, and thus benefits Haliburton the most, as they supply the war. God bless our troops, and let's just be glad that Haliburton doesn't make the decision when the war ends, for our troops' sake.

                                                                • 6 votes
                                                                Reply#17 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:48 AM EST

                                                                another foreign policy victory for obama administration. great job.

                                                                • 7 votes
                                                                Reply#18 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:49 AM EST

                                                                The end of 2011 pull out was signed by Bush before Obama was elected.

                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                #18.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:41 PM EST

                                                                Yes it was. So please do explain why the likes of Dick and Liz Cheney are all over the place whining about pulling out of Iraq while their mindlesss minions jump on that bandwagon as well.

                                                                • 4 votes
                                                                #18.2 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:51 PM EST
                                                                Reply

                                                                Bush got what he wanted out of Iraq....big fat defense contracts for his buddies.

                                                                • 9 votes
                                                                Reply#19 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:50 AM EST

                                                                Yup, with 17,000 contractors on the dole ole Darth Vader should just shut up, kick back, and cash his checks until we can find and elect a president with the nuts to fire the lot of them and get completely out of there. We will never win in the ME, they will never be friendly to us as they despise our way of life completely. The only way we ever win this is to end our dependency on the only thing that they have that we want, oil. But the right wing would rather stay on that tit and try and drill our way out of the problem. Won't happen. Fracking will eventually be exposed for what it is, very dangerous.

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                #19.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:07 PM EST
                                                                Reply

                                                                You can blame Bush, but America nearly ALWAY make the wrong decisions when it comes to whom to invade. The law of un-intended consequences seems to be routed in the American constitution. That's what you get when political posturing by the worlds bully is the face of America to the world.

                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                Reply#20 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:52 AM EST

                                                                We're not really out of there. 17k troops remain and the huge embassy full of "contractors" remains. Religious fundamentalists are often desired by the elite cause they see the world in black and white and are easily manipulated through this ignorance. Look at the religious people in our country intent on attacking Iran. As long as the new leadership prices oil in dollars, keeps the drug crops going, and allows US oil companies access, they can be as tyrannical as they want. Sad truths of the matter.

                                                                We should probably work on revising our financial system in the US so we don't have to keep propping up the dollar via intervention. No more debt based money. Put in state banks in each state (like in ND). Go after American energy supplies in our own country. Why are we sitting on these strategic reserves? If we use those now, while we ramp up the effort for energy independence, we can decouple ourselves from Mid East politics, and make ourselves energy independent long before the reserves run out. Oh, but big biz might lose money.... yeah that's the reason for everything. Don't buy the phony altruism. We're not the good guys. Neither is Iran or Iraq, but it's time for some actual leadership in DC.

                                                                I'd like to be patriotic about something other than war. The American people are starving for some actual leadership. Furthermore, why can't we team up with another country to solve a common problem? Wouldn't it be nice to have a relationship with some other country based on something positive for once? Guess I have to do that stuff on my own. But if that's the case.... why do people need to pay taxes? Time to decentralize. Absolute power corrupts. You can call it liberal or conservative.... it's all human nature to me.... just different flavors of the establishment gaining dangerous levels of centralized control while hiding behind faith, flag pins, the environment, or whatever people will buy. Ron Paul 2012!

                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                Reply#21 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:53 AM EST
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                                                                "But in Iraq, hanging flags isn’t a sign of religious celebration. It is a way to mark territory. It is a way to show dominance, like Marines landing on a beach and raising a flag to say: this is mine." I would have used "like dogs pissing on your front steps and raising a leg to say: this is mine".

                                                                • 5 votes
                                                                Reply#22 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:53 AM EST

                                                                And also, as an aside, who gives a shiiittee what Bush wanted? It's the troops who fought, not Bush.

                                                                • 4 votes
                                                                Reply#23 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:54 AM EST

                                                                I am very happy about the withdrawal of American Troops. Just as much as I am tried of hearing about these middle eastern countries-these nations have done nothing but bring enormous grief and problems to the world. I don not understand why the current administration as well as the previous believe or think these countries can live under democratic government?

                                                                I do not trust them nor to I believe they will try and change. Why can a people change their world when you have only live on way ALL OF YOUR LIFE, YOUR FATHER'S LIFE AND GRANDPARENTS LIVES? The math does not add up

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                Reply#24 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:55 AM EST

                                                                Just think. If western countries hadn't stuck their hands into the middle east, doing business and setting up embassies etc., the mid east would have never modernized and would have stuck to their own business and not given "enormous grief and problems to the world." Your comments are ignorant - oblivious to the fact that we have done enormous harm to mid eastern peoples. Your comments are the typical rantings of someone with no knowledge of history, geography, other cultures and foreign policy.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #24.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:05 PM EST

                                                                Pot and Kettle there Jeff. Not much intelligence in your rant either.

                                                                If western countries hadn't stuck their hands into the middle east, doing business and setting up embassies etc., the mid east would have never modernized and would have stuck to their own business and not given "enormous grief and problems to the world."

                                                                Exactly when did they modernize? They have had about 1400 years to modernize and have consciously chosen not to. The live in a theocratic state by choice. Up until the 1970's the west was able to extract cheep oil out of that region by bullying, lying and propping up friendly dictators like the Shah in Iran. They wised up, now we pay.

                                                                But none of that has anything to do with why this region causes "enormous grief and problems". That roots to one cause, our blind support for Israel because some loonies on the right have misinterpreted the Bible to say that unless we blindly support everything those clowns do that we will face the wrath of God. "Abandoning" them, and not supporting or funding their actions are two totally different things.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #24.2 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:18 PM EST
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                                                                Reading this article I can easily conclude that GW was a complete moron. I pretty much already concluded that but in the end of the day, I will never know the whole story. I really hope this wasn't as big a foreign affairs screw-up as it has and continues to appear.

                                                                • 7 votes
                                                                Reply#25 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:56 AM EST

                                                                Jeff,

                                                                Appearances can be deceiving, but, in the case of our involvement under W, I think it is what it is. A complete Flustercluck from the get go!!

                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                #25.1 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:31 PM EST

                                                                Wag, you must have an advanced GED degree ?

                                                                  #25.2 - Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:53 AM EST
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