[music]
[music]
Welcome our dear viewers. This is Taher Baraka .
I salute you and present to you this episode of Political Memory with ambassador Johnny Abdo , the former Lebanese
intelligence chief. Welcome back with us your Excellency - Welcome
Welcome
At page 584 of Anqoulah Nasif's book which we spoke about last time ,
it was stated that you disclosed to Sarkis phone recordings for Hoss in which he was criticizing him, and told him in
1980 that Hoss should not continue in his position as a prime minister.
We talked in the previous episode about this issue. But even
Fouad Boutros in his autobiography, page 386, said, "At the
end of July 1979, the intelligence agencies informed me that
Hoss has become a hostage for the Left and the National
Movement".
I provide information not proposals;
I did not allow myself ever to tell to the president that Hoss cannot continue
Didn't you say so? -Never
Never
It is impossible for me to say so to him.
And he would not have even accepted me to tell him so.
Despite his modesty, etc, Elias Sarkis does not accept ever such behavior. In a previous time , I was reporting about
somebody; I told him that this person who is used to visit you, spends night .... He interrupted me and said, "Listen my
son,
you can interfere in anything but not me. It is me who choose my friends. This is none of your business." So as evident,
one cannot suggest any proposals to Elias Sarkis .
I just wanted to tell him that such friend's reputation, with his visits, might be harmful to him. He was very straight
forward. He thought that his balance
of impartiality, competence, integrity and morals is enough to bear any kind of friend he wants to have as part of his
close relations. Consequently, it was impossible for me to suggest
to him that Salim El- Hoss should not continue in his position. This was really impossible.
But you told him something within this context leading to the continuity of conflicts
I was providing information which might lead to any result. I explained this issue to you in the previous episodes.
According to Fouad Boutros , it was you namely whom he meant when he said that the intelligence agencies
informed me that Salim Al - Hoss became a hostage for the Left
No, it is not me at all. It is his own conclusions which
were based on wiretapping, as we were sending also such
tapes to Fouad Boutros .
These were our conclusions, as we all speak the same language as a result of reading the information existing in hands.
I do not know whether he was really a hostage for the Left or not. Maybe this is wrong. -Wrong?
Wrong?
Yes. He was not overruled by the Left necessarily but
Wasn't he?
No, no, he wasn't. He was a hostage for the left, but rather for a certain sect
whereas he wanted to prove that he
is competent to be representative of Sunnah in the chairmanship of the government. This was not Elias Sarkis ' view point
with respect to the Christian aspect.
For example, Elias Sarkis had not ever expressed a desire to be a representative of Christians in his rule. But Salim
El- Hoss wanted to be the representative of Sunni Muslims in the regime.
Well, Selim Al Hoss was known of his integrity and his commitment in the State -Yes
Yes
You said so in a previous episode. -Yes
Yes
And he was enjoying a good charisma
Had you, or that who worked on removing Salim Al - Hoss from
his position, or any other party related to president
Sarkis , considered Salim El- Hoss as an obstacle that might
hinder any future interests you were seeking or planning
for? -Never
Never
He was just an obstacle for a unique experience in Lebanon
among all existing forces, including the Palestinian
Liberation Organization, the National Movement, and the
Lebanese Front.
The fact that Lebanon has two people, one named Elias Sarkis
and the second named Salim Hoss was a unique experience
surpassing all
existing concepts in Lebanon .
These two people can be followed by the entire country, and therefore, unite the country. Elias Sarkis worked on
implementing such issue, but Salim Al - Hoss did not.
Wasn't this related to paving the way for Bachir Gemayel to presidency?
No, not at all. At the beginning,
Wasn't he considered as a stumbling block in this way?
At the beginning,
No this was not the case at all.
We did not consider Salim Hoss as a stumbling block . What did Salim Al Hoss have to do with the parliamentary council?
Did he acquire any votes? He had nothing actually.
All what Salim El- Hoss was representing,
not Salim El- Hoss in person; namely the National Movement, the Liberation Organization... etc., were all against Bachir
Gemayel . This is true. But El- Hoss was weaker than many other to be capable for stumbling. Therefore, removing him was
not a target. This is not true.
Did not you have part in nominations or recommendations of certain persons to be nominated,
just as you had part in removing the prime minister? -After
After
Taqi -al-din Al -sulh, I started to have part, yes. I entered many long maneuvers
This is a confession.
Yes, I entered long wide ranged maneuvers because there was
almost a decision not to give room for president Sarkis to
form a government
Therefore, I had to add names and names. They could just burn them all if they wish.
Sarkis was accused that he would monopolize power
I want to say that Elias Sarkis did not monopolize power.
He submitted a reconciliation proposal but they did not accept. There were so and so, Sai'b Sallam , Shafik al- Wazzan ,
and Rashid Karama
I said that president Sarkis , have five names. I fired media
maneuvers president Sarkis did not know anything about it
actually
I said there were five names. Whoever wants to apologize can just do it. But we want to demonstrate that we do not
monopolize authority, and want to form a government
This was your goal of releasing these names -Yes
Yes
Consequently, we had government Shafik al- Wazzan
Not for letting them burn each other
No, never. But I admit we was belonging to the Syrians [...] For example,
Mohamed Khawli who was attending the talks and that is a
reconciliation government and so, contacted and went to
Hafez Assad
and returned back to me in ten or fifteen minutes with the
response, for example, that we believe that this government
will not succeed
They did not want it
I do not interpret it as such
I told him that it is final. I told him how he is saying so;
haven't you agreed?
He said that he did not say so. I exclaimed, "What did you
tell me!?
You told me that he will rule.
The matter that he will succeed or not cannot be but just an opinion he submit, and we have to decide whether he is
going to succeed or not. You may have the right.
But do you think that it should not continue or do you want
it not not succeed? I was very insistent a bit regarding
this issue not for that I am
but you conveyed the answer
of the unasked question. -No
No
I mean the question that you know that its answer will not be -No
No
President Sarkis and Fouad Boutros were inexperienced and new to politics. I told him I used this same phrase
I asked him twice ; "Do you think it will not succeed or do you want it not to succeed? We need to know." I talked with
Nabih Berri and Walid Jumblatt that even if the Syrians did not agree, we will continue in our way.
I spoke with them on this issue that even if the Syrians did not agree, we will continue in our way. In my return from
there, the order was received and Walid Jumblatt , Nabih Berri and Assem Qansoah resigned before the formation of the
government. It had not been formed; they resigned.
How was your relations with the Syrians in that period , as politicians?
They were attempting to subdue us; but
resident Sarkis was very aware of this issue.
I was his Intelligence chief and I swear to you here now that I did not have one informant in the Syrian army. President
Sarkis prevented me from having an informant
inside the Syrian army in Lebanon . He told me this is forbidden. I asked him, "Why?" He replied that they came
as a sister country that sent its army to us. This does not mean that you should spy on them. I was receiving the news
of the Syrian army from the Lebanese forces and Elie Hobeika , who had hundred spies for them
But I was prohibited to have any.
Were you accepting everything instructed by president Sarkis ? -Yes, of course.
Yes, of course.
Weren't to trying to avoid some instructions sometimes? -No, never.
No, never.
Maybe just in the issue of the maneuvers.
As for thing that I want to do and might have fears that he would not accept, I just do not ask him directly;
but make some maneuvers
You just do it and then
For example, I might tell him I brought the names and so and
so, and then if it happened that he asked me, I start
elaborating my view point
I did not want at all to have president Sarkis , the Intelligence chief. If someone should be cursed, it is me not him.
If the army should be cursed, I must be cursed instead of it, because I am temporal. I might be changed; go and others
come instead of me, but the institution is unchangeable
The Syrians in Lebanon
This influence which has become to them gradually to full guardianship, do you historically blame, when you remember on
Lebanon politicians or is it just an existing regional and international reality?
None of the Syrians in Lebanon was able to bypass -No
No
The politicians
No the politicians in Lebanon
The politicians
It is such influence which they acquired gradually till full
custody.
Do you blame historically when you remember this fact,
This Maronite president was the one who appoints the prime minister and the ministers
as per the Constitution. This was not taking place before. The people in the parliament were seeking the satisfaction of
the president for he was the one who appoints the ministers.
No one dared to say no.
This job was taken by the Syrians. Can notice today in Lebanon how many former Parliament members
and former ministers are having titles granted by the Syrians? No one else has given them the same. They were not
granted any by the president of Lebanon nor as per decrees. It was the Syrian custody.
When I see they present them on TV as former minister and
MP . I just laugh. Who have appointed him as a former
minister? The Syrians,
not the Lebanese institution.
So it is not the constitution nor the president, so why should I blame the politicians? There are presidents who were
appointed by Syria to just do what they order exactly
To comply with their orders -Yes
Yes
Let us speak about more detail after the break, if you please... Our dear viewers, after this short break, we will be
back to continue this episode of Political Memory
[music]
Welcome back dear viewers.
We continue in this episode of Political Memory with ambassador Johnney Abdo , the former Lebanese intelligence chief,
welcome back your Excellency. - Welcome
Welcome
Let's continue
with Nicola Naseef's second book, " Hakem fi Al - Dhel " (Ruler in the Shadow) where he mentioned in page 560, that there
were two distinguished phone lines in your office
yes, one of them with intelligence station to the American embassy -Yes
Yes
One was with the intelligence station of the USA Embassy, and the other was with Mohammed Ghanem , the Chief of the
Syrian intelligence branch in Shtaura -Yes
Yes
Why were you having these two distinguished phone lines? Were you trying to balance in Lebanon ? -Never
Never
within the framework of the political equation -Never
Never
The political equation in Lebanon
Never ever
This was a basic need for the Lebanese State. And we, in our capacity of the Lebanese intelligence, our job is to defend
Lebanon . There were two important forces in the country, one named Syrian custody in Syria ,
and the other named the United States of America in Lebanon . Therefore, the lines were are open because at that time ,
these phone were not even ringing -How?
How?
I mean I was not calling them and no one was calling me. They were just calling in emergencies -Yes
Yes
in the very urgent cases.
I can remember at the time of the Israeli invasion, the
officers gathered and were looking at the US line phone
and see whether it will ring or not. No one will get us out of this predicament but those, not the Syrians. When lots of
big problems took place in Lebanon internally or externally, they keep looking at the other phone
They wanted to tell me make a call so that you may stop the events which are taking place. When there was an
international or regional issue, they kept watching the US line phone wanting me to call the Americans so that they may
help us
You were able to accomplish your work through the embassies of the major countries in Lebanon ?
No, I could not. I used to have regular meetings with all foreign military Attaches
almost monthly
They were taking the form of press conference
This was better than having them spying on us, coming and going and so. I just invite them to sit on the table and you
ask them if they have any question they would like to ask to answer with pleasure. I used
to provide them with a brief on everything as much as
possible, that the British military Attache at that time
asked me to set a special appointment
for him and asked, "Do you say the truth on the table? I told him yes of course
I told them yes of course. I told them I don't lie
I may not tell the whole truth, but I never lie at you.
But let me tell you something. The truth may not be complete. I may hide some issues. But this is not lying.
He replied
you are going to cause us dizziness. I asked, why?
He said, "Because with respect to the entire region and the entire Arab world, what you are saying to us cannot be
considered but a kind of maneuver. They cannot believe that there is someone who says the truth on table
I repeat I may not say all truth while answering some questions, because it is none of their business and does need to
know. I rule with the idea of "The need to know". If there is a need for him to know, I just let him know a little
In 1980, with the control of the Lebanese forces on the
Right parties, after a number of battles, including
Assafra'a and Ehden and others,
the relationship between you,
I mean your Excellency or president Elias Sarkis , with Bashir Al - jamil
has changed.
Who made the decision and based on what? Is it because he
has been a force and you do not have to deal with it?
No, events just went on. The Christian Bondokiya was unified by Bachir Gemayel . All the political forces feared and
came to us to know whether we are also afraid or not
They returned to the start point. We formed Taqi al- Din
al- Sulh government which was comprised of all sects, expect
Bashir Gemayel
to face this scheme, which was made by Bashir Gemayel to unify Bond -... The unification of the Christian Bondoqeya was
half disaster in the opinion of all others
not according to the Palestinian forces. This was just
according to only the Sunni forces and the forces of... all
forces in the State.
Our response was forming a government of all Lebanon
not including Bashir Gemayel . When the Syrians mixed the entire government,
a crisis of forming a government has been imposed on you.
The phalanx refused to enter the government. We were required at the time to fight with Bashir Gemayel
and one of us only should win, while the other forces keep watching us.
The State should of course continue
At that time , I told Bashir Gemayel -Yes
Yes
that I have a message
there is a detainee of your army. Please send me someone to tell you his name. We do not have people detained
He sent me one of his men, Zahi Al -bustani -Yes
Yes
I told him I want someone to coordinate with this issue. He sent Zahi Al -bustani
At that time , Zahi Al -bustani.
Many people in our seeing saw that we should get rid of him because he was harmful, God forbid, may God have mercy with
him. May God have mercy with him. i told him
If we are to act with recklessness as you do, this country will be ruined
This repeated history between Michel Aoun and Samir Geagea .
None of them was rational enough to act without such recklessness
But I invited Bashir Gemayel to discuss the issue and get rid of this recklessness. Afterwards, you should participate
in the government. Settle the matter with the phalanx to participate in the government
He sent me his acceptance and that we should not fight to let any other benefit from our disputes, and I will
participate in the government.
I told him that your father does not accept your participation in the government. He asserted that he is going to
participate. After the government of Safiq Wezzan
Salim Najeem was included as a representative of Bashir Gemayel , and the phalanx were not included
Therefore, Bashir Gemayel covered the government immediately
At that time , demonstrations took place in Lebanon and the government remained for forty days and did not go to the
house of representatives because the Syrians aroused the Shiite street, claiming that their rights are not reserved,
etc
At that time , I entered a long and broad ranged maneuver and
announced in all newspapers that president Sarkis is going
to attend the summit
in Jordan
which was boycotted by Syria -Yes
Yes
I made my decision and, of course, it was impossible for Elias Sarkis ( May God bless him) to go to Jordan
I published the news in newspapers: Sarkis goes to Jordan to attend the Jordan ; and so on. This was at the time when
the government did not attend to the house of representatives
Two days before, the envoy of Hafez Al - assad , Hikmat Al -shihabi, visited president Sarkis
He told him that president Assad wants you not go to Jordan . He told him, "What Jordan !!?" He told him the summit
boycotted by Syria , etc.
He replied that he is not going to go Jordan and that it is impossible to go to anywhere boycotted by president Assad
and told him to inform him of such. He replied that of course he will.
He then asked, "Do you want anything from him?"He answered that he does not want such chaos in streets. "Look, you who
aroused this street against the government", he added
Wasn't this a kind of subordination to say that I can never go anywhere..
No, he was not going originally
without any requests -Yes
Yes
He wanted the interest of Lebanon . We did not want to enter an Arab battle
against Syria . This was not our approach basically.
In spite of non-subordination, etc, this should not mean at all fighting Syria . No, Elias Sarkis was not thinking at all
of fighting. He was not subduing to them. Yes, sometimes they asked him to discharge someone or so, and he did not
accept, but this does not mean to fight them.
We was acting in accordance with the interest of Lebanon
Hikmat Al -shihabi told him that he is going to inform the former president
The former chief of staff -Yes
Yes
President Assad was informed of the demonstrations against
the government which you consider that we are moving. And
within twenty four hours, the demonstrations stopped and
Shafik Wazzan government attended the house of
representatives and was granted confidence.
This was one of the maneuvers I made
Did you carry it out without the knowledge of president Sarkis ? -Yes
Yes
But Bachir Gameyel changed in your opinion
from a militia leader not matching the state concept, to an ally
Yes a close ally integrating with the state project till we
reached the stage that president Sarkis made serious efforts
to let him succeed him
in presidency -Yes
Yes
And you also worked on such effort -Yes
Yes
Your relationship with him was bad to the extent that when
any person is detained, each one wanted to assassinate the
other? -Yes
Yes
So how such relationship changed that way? What made it changed? -Because
Because
personal relations should not at all affect me or president Sarkis -Yes
Yes
Anything but the national interest. Your question included the answer
which is
Bachir Gemayel was
strong -He was a president
He was against the state and was with the division in the full sense of the word; if Lebanon is not going to unify, I
will control the Christian region and the State should not be concerned with the Christian region
But Bashir Gemayel's stance was changed to a stance of a real state
So it was him who changed and not you?
Of course
I will give you a very small example
After the break, please
After the break
Dear viewers, let's have this small break and then continue this episode.
[music]
Welcome back our dear viewer to this episode of Political Memory with ambassador Johnney Abdu , the former Lebanese
intelligence chief. Welcome back your Excellency. - Welcome
Welcome
You wanted to give us an example that it was Bashir Gemayel , not you, who have changed
President Elias Sarkis had a request. There was an issue
disturbing him so much.
I pointed out to president Sarkis that everybody is
considering Israel as an enemy on one side. So, he called me
and stated that no one succeeds in Lebanon while being in
relation
with Israel and being Israel's ally
You have to make Bashir Gemayel understand the main danger Lebanon is exposed to due to Bashir Gemayel which resemble
the basis of such danger due to his relationship with Israel
Can you my son move him from Israel to the Arabs? I told him a lot
that we can move him from Israel to America but moving him to the Arabs needs hard work and some efforts
He told you that this relationship would rein the Christians -Yes
Yes
He told me, well, ask the US ambassador to invite Bashir Gemayel to dinner to gather him and me. So Sarkis wanted us,
Bashir Gemayel , the US ambassador, Bob Delin and me, to meet on dinner upon the US ambassador's invitation.
the American ambassador asked Bachir Gemayel . He said to him are you giving the Israelis more than us?
He told him of course not.
He said to him we give them 99% of their demands -Yes.
Yes.
If we do not give them the 1% they give us a hard time . What can you do to them?
What can you do to them?
Bachir Gemayel thought and asked him, but who is on my side?
You think I made contact with Israel because I love Israel , no. I am fighting for my existence. You do not help nor does
anyone. At that time Bachir Gemayel's visit to America has started.
When he considered
that what happened was an embracing by the Americans. -Yes.
Yes.
to succeed Bachir Gemayel ...
Therefore, Bachir Gemayel was able to say that... and the proof of this is that after that he was elected president of
the republic despite his fight with Begin. -Correct.
Correct.
All these are related to the
tendency of president Sarkis with Bachir Gemayel .
He reached a point where he explained to Bachir Gemayel how serious any relationship with Israel is on the Christian
situation in particular, and on Lebanon generally. -Well
Well
But the story that you just said about what Sarkis said to you regarding Bachir Gemayel's relationship with Israel and
how it is harming Christians and how it should stop
is it complete or does it have a supplement? -No.
No.
It is complete and the proof of this, is that president Sarkis first ... and president Al - Wazzan have worked on... if you
remember, I do not know if you remember, the Lebanese paper.
Which was made to resolve the Lebanese issue and have the
Syrian forces exit Lebanon . The first article in the paper
stated a recognition by Bachir Gemayel that he has cut ties
with Israel .
This was the first paper, this was the first condition.
Therefore president Sarkis was able to get that paper from Bachir Gemayel to supplement the matter until the end.
I just want to find to you what is being said regarding this matter. Because when president Sarkis
expressed his displeasure in an exhibition about the relationship of Bachir Gemayel's relationship with Israel . He said
to you now that you are in a good condition, tell him to stop dealing with it. Tell him he could have any relationship
except one with Israel . Then he said be careful this relationship
will wreck Christians, and you answered,
do you remember what you answered?
No, what I said to you, that we can not
transfer it from Israel to the Arabs. We must move it from Israel for America first .
But , in the book of the second office, A Ruler in the shade, on page 646, Nicholas Nassif said that you also answered
him: and without it, the Palestinians will take control of Lebanon . The president said take it, but he warned of Israel .
Not true, this is not true.
Not in any other context, or in any other shape has this talk taken place?
This talk is not true at all.
The evidence on that is that I carried out the request of president Sarkis . I did not maneuver this way at all. On the
contrary, I was convinced of what president Sarkis was saying in this regards.
How did you harmonize between knowing the relationship of
Bachir Gemayel with Israel and your support to him of course
once the equation has changed.
Of course when the equation has changed.
Do mean communications were cut off between Bachir Gemayel and Israel then the equation has changed?
We had an essential idea.
If Israel is the problem, Bashir Gemayel is the solution. If Syria is the problem, Raymond Edde is the solution.
Yes.
In the sense that he wants another one ... and the proof on that is what happened between Bachir Gemayel and the Israelis
after his election, in Nahariya , it proves the truth.
Bachir Gemayel told me at that time . Which I considered that if Bachir Gemayel was assassinated
6 months after the date of his assassination, I would not have accused Israel .
Because he said impressive words to Begin.
If you believe that we have done all this resistance
to choose who will governs us, you or Hafez Al - Assad , you are wrong. The option is not for you to govern us or Hafez
Al - Assad . We did not establish a resistance for this reason.
So I said to him, they will kill you, to Bachir Gemayel .
The reconciliation happened later. They sent him People to apologize. But I said to him, they will assassinate you. This
is the biggest mistake that you have done. You should have thought that but you should not have told them.
It is being said that although Israel did not participate
logistically or financially if we could say that, it still
has an interest
In the assassination of Bashir Gemayel . In spite of all the
interests among them or relations with them in the
beginning. But that changed later.
Lebanon makes a person happy sometimes, but at other times
it messes the person up...
I ask forgiveness from God almighty, I mean even the
holiest...
Sanctities
The holiest Sanctities in other words, the Israeli army in Lebanon messed it up.
It started accepting bribes. They started taking money along
with cocaine and heroin. Inside Israel there were 2 parties:
A party called the Phalange party and Al - Ahrar party, they
fought against each other inside Israel . The same thing
happened to the Syrian army.
The Syrian army at the end, or not even at the end, but
rather 2 months after it entered Lebanon , the country became
a prize for it.
They took money and became... and you tell me how did they get here and conceded?
They did not concede but they also paid money to concede.
There are people who paid money to occupy high-raking
positions... etc.
Ministers and deputies.
Ministers and deputies, they paid money to occupy their positions. They fully conceded, in addition to their concession,
they paid money to the aggressor.
Not only Ghazi Kanan , God have mercy on him and Rustum Ghazali or anybody or Ali Duba , neither one of their houses was
short on gifts in Lebanon . When I say gifts I do not mean cigarettes or anything, no.
Of course
But, regarding the same point that I am asking you, don't you think that Israel at that stage had an interest?
In my belief not at that stage no. Look, the Israelis without a doubt were not willing to accuse Syria of killing Bachir
Gemayel , they wanted to accuse Palestine .
Therefore, the Israelis, have sent a message to the Lebanese Forces regarding the assassination of
of Bachir Gemayel .
They refused, the Israelis rejected the conspiracy that was
cooked by the Palestinians to assassinate Bachir Gemayel .
They want to return again to create clashes. The Christians,
Sabra and Shatila did not come by chance, Sabra and Shatila
came
came at a stage...
If you please. Can I -Go ahead.
Go ahead.
I prefer to go back to this stage later. -Go ahead.
Go ahead.
But we wanted to refer to the issue of Israel , because you mentioned the relationship.
You mentioned how the relationship was tens in his last days. I told you before that you reached the stage in which you
want to get rid of Bachir Gemayel , and so did he. Which period are we talking about? When was that?
I do not want to say, that you had taken the decision.
But it was a stage.
But you had the desire to.
The main stage after the assassination.
Yes.
I considered that this was a directed thing.
This was an office I had
and he was assassinated. As a part of the response to it was the timing of Elie Hobeika .
Yes.
Without a doubt, that he was also considering the killing of Samir ,
Captain Samir Al - Ashqar
Captain Samir Al - Ashqar , I think that he also considered it against him. Therefore, he took his revenge on this issue.
Things started to take a turn as if
the assassinations became a repeated phenomena.
Therefore, I, with the ability of the majestic and perfect God, was alert and able to realize at some point that we are
heading toward a disaster if things continued this way.
Therefore, I would go back and remind you that I asked him to send me someone.
Why? to avoid...
In which framework was this talk? When it is said that you want to get rid of him?
It is not rid of him. -It is not?
It is not?
He wanted to get rid of you.
It is not exactly getting rid of him.
But, someone was with the government and someone was against it, it does not take much to understand it. Bachir Gemayel
was the symbol of being against the government and I was the symbol of supporting the government. Elias Sarkis did not
exactly have an army nor Fouad Boutros .
I mean we had those 2 and a half strong people as they say
in the resistance movement which made us think that we are
heroes with them.
On the 13th of September 1979, Bachir Gemayel visited Elias Sarkis in the presidential palace at the request of the
president. At that point we had started the equation of change or change if the expression is right.
I was not there.
You were not where?
I was not in that meeting and that atmosphere.
You were not at that meeting why? What happened?
I believe that, that meeting is
of the directing and producing of Joseph Abi Khalil . -Yes.
Yes.
At that time , that is what I believe.
You have not yet begun to support him at this stage.
No, here, I had not started to support him, no.
I had not yet started to support him, no.
Yes there was calm, almost between me and him. -Yes.
Yes.
But I was not at the stage of supporting him.
I was not against him. I knew about him but I was not against him.
What happened at that stage, how did this reconciliation take place?
This meeting was not a good one . According to my memory, it was neither good not bad.
What do you remember? What has Bachir Gemayel said? What has Sarkis proposed to him?
President Sarkis had his conviction without me telling him, and without his support in this matter. He had his
conviction that there must be a balance of power in Lebanon .
Meaning?
Meaning that as a counter to the Liberation Organization and the National Movement, there must be a balance of power and
we should not go back to the era of Franjieh . Who said the Phalange that I cannot protect you just go and get armed.
President Sarkis did not say such a thing.
Even if this force had relations with Israel .
No, this is a matter that Sarkis did not accept in any way, shape or form.
Yes, it is known that he does not accept it. But he supported him, He was still on good relations with Israel .
No, I will tell you, the president supported him under one condition, which is that he stays away from Israel .
This is what happened.
The relationship with Israel has continued on the part of Bachir Gemayel . Perhaps afterwards he continued it, or it had
stopped for a little bit . But I know that it was not completely cut off. Correct.
It is true that they were not cut off. All my information
are about the invasion and so on from Bachir Gemayel . The
Syrians' information were from Bachir Gemayel , and the
information of the Palestinians are from Bachir Gemayel .
Meaning, from us.
I informed the Syrians and I informed the Palestinians and they did not believe us, this is a good thing.
We will return to this stage but -Yes.
Yes.
Despite that, Sarkis remained in support of him. -Yes.
Yes.
To Bachir Gemayel .
Yes, true.
In support of what I told you. -Yes.
Yes.
But the other thing is, of course, which he did not support and rather completely rejected. He tried his best to stop
this relationship with Bashir Gemayel . -Yes.
Yes.
Between Bachir Gemayel and Israel .
We talked about the attitude of Sarkis toward Israel .
Also how he coordinated between his relationship and repairing his relationship with Bachir Gemayel , and the
relationship of the latter with Israel . But it is said that Sarkis and army have helped
Bachir Gemayel to impose control on the Christian arena. The
positive development of the relationship with Bachir Gemayel
was to an extent to facilitate the control of Bachir Gemayel in the Christian arena to become its only leader. Inside
the Christian militias. Later this was described as
the help of the army to Bachir Gemayel's liquidation of the Free militias in Ein Al - Rumana .
Of course here we has surpassed the stage of the massacres Ahdem and Al - Safra and so on. Correct?
Correct
I mean there are punishment that have occurred in the army because of the story of Ein Rummaneh . -Yes.
Yes.
The commander of the army got a penalty, and the chief of
staff got a penalty, because of the failure of the army in
Ein Al - Rummaneh how can that be?
I think that this talk has nothing to do with reality. True reality is that there was bitterness in the army. Therefore,
Fouad Boutros was the minister of defense and Elias Sarkis the president of the republic. They demanded the punishment
of the commander of the army and they were punished.
But there are references and books, which discuss a different context than the one you are discussing. In the framework
also of changing attitude of Bachir Gemayel . Until it reached
the support.
The bodyguard of Elie Hobeika , Robert Hatem , known as the Cobra, he recounts in his book "From Israel to Damascus , the
March of Blood and Betrayal" that you did not announce your allegiance to Bachir Gemayel
until you felt threatened. When you did not feel safe, even inside the defense ministry.
Allow me to not respond to the words of someone who I do not believe it at all. I think that his job did not allow him
to ever have any certain vision. I will not respond.
But, he had information.
Leave them for him.
They were described as serious, correct?
No he has no information.
Let him boil it and drink the water of this information. The Information of the bodyguard of Elie Hobeika .
In which framework do you put
his book and his information which he issued?
I put his book in the political maneuvers which were carried out by the Lebanese factions. -Yes.
Yes.
To defeat Elie Hobeika , consequently, whoever paid more money issued this book.
Yes.
But I will continue in the book, of Hatem so that you can correct it. Because we are talking about history.
Yes, but I hope that
we do not depend on the books. First, Nassif , who is dear to
us and we tried his whole entire book, and now we will try
the Cobra's book.
Yes, but this is information
Yes, but this is not the subject of our talk.
But this is information concern you.
Yes, but these books.
They deal with your history.
Here we either confirm it, document it or deny it. -Yes.
Yes.
with other cases you remember.
Go ahead.
Hatem says that this came against the backdrop of what happened in 1978 when Hobeika was kidnapped. The subject that you
mentioned a little while ago. The one for which he later recruited soldier in the Defense Ministry.
He assassinated his kidnappers.
Who is Elias Moussa whom he assassinated in his bed at the Ministry of Defense . He used to stay at the Defense Ministry,
because he feared for his life.
Which led you to review your calculations
with Bachir Gemayel ?
Let him
tell only what he knows. There is no reason for him to say what I think. He does not know me, and he has never seen me.
He does not have enough of a personality to assess the people. Again, please allow me to not answer.
Was someone interested in saying that about you?
allow me to not respond to this.
I do not want to answer
myths. -Well, do not answer it. But is there anyone in your opinion or your analysis? -No.
No.
Who is interested in Robert Hatem saying that about you?
I do not know.
I am not interested in this issue really.
Because there are details when the viewers follow them, they
are historic details.
Where I do not want to say they detailed.
Any person can.
But it has many details.
Any person can
Anyone can write you details which you can cite. It does not have to be Cobra.
There are those who say that at that time you have gotten an office in the Phalanges Military Council.
This is not true. What do you want me to answer.
Which floor was it on?
This talk is meaningless.
Do not try to convince me that this is the first time that you listen to such talks.
No, it is the first time I hear the office story.
The office story, this is your first time ?
Yes, the first time .
Why would I have an office, as long as I can meet up with Bachir Gemayel at any moment . Bachir Gemayel used to hang out
at my house. Why would I start an office.
I mean didn't you have fear, for example?
Of whom?
Of any political or military force on the ground. This fear
could have become a reality, where one force could target
you for example.
Yes, of course certainly and for this reason, my family did not sit with me all this time in Lebanon .
What about you?
My case is a different story. I am responsible for myself. But my family is not responsible for me.
Doesn't that mean that you made a political decision for fear of liquidation?
Not at all, I mean all of those who knew me, they knew
where I was. I used to drive my car by myself in Lebanon . -Yes.
Yes.
I was director of intelligence I used to drive my car myself.
Well, we will leave Robert Hatem but we will go back to Fouad Boutros , who is dear to you.
Here is what proves your attempts to support Bachir Gemayel
on the ground after the reconciliation. I will report it
from Fouad Boutros ' memoir.
There is no doubt that Johnny Abdo did not expect the
results of the operation of Ein Al - Rummaneh . The president
told me that when about the consequences of the size of the
army to move to stop the fighting, he replied that the
people will forget.
He believed that people will forget the case in a matter of a couple of days, is that reasonable?
Forget what?
What happened in Ein Al - Rummaneh within 2 days. Therefore, there is no reason to intervene to stop the fighting.
I mean,
I do not think Fouad Boutros knows who proposed taking specific measures regarding those who slacked from the army. I
believe that it was us who did the report. The proof of that is that they were all punished except for me.
Yes. -I mean punishments have reached all officials except for me. How is that possible?
I am the one who's heart was burning because of the way the army was acting. How can I say such a thing.
Alright how?
Perhaps Fouad Boutros has forgotten, I do not know.
Perhaps he has forgotten who the real man was behind the necessity to continue the investigation and the punishment.
The general atmosphere was that this a story which one could not keep silent about.
Why does Boutros go back in page 447 to say: We have had several meetings with the president of the republic to solve
the problem of Ein Al - Rumaneh . Then he says, that the director of intelligence has continuously tried to avoid punishing
top officials and this is what increase my skepticism.
In his involvement in the operation of Ein Al - Rummaneh .
Fouad Boutros , even though he was the minister of defense he did not know what is the meaning of the army. No one knows
what is the meaning of the army. I was against the declaration, Fouad Boutros wanted to announce the measures of
punishment of the army commander and others and this might strike the army's reputation. -Yes.
Yes.
I was against it.
You can take measures but not announced the punishments of senior officers and junior officers, especially in the army
it is confidential because it would strike the prestige of the army. Therefore, I am against the declaration. This is
the position I took but I am not against punishments.
But he says the director of intelligence, was always trying
to evade the imposition of punishments and not announcing
the punishments.
I do not know, whoever read these words in the language of
the army knows that this is outside the scope of the
organization.
But he was the minister of defense and the foreign minister.
Then he is the one imposing punishments.
I am the one imposing punishments?
how will I escape of imposing sanctions?
He is the one that imposes them and he is the defense minister , I am the one who imposes them on the commander of the
army?
This talk, I think you know how much respect I have for Fouad Boutros and all honor... etc.
Respect.
But the I language in this book has taken a sugar coating impression and only excess of it.
This talk is not true.
The way he says it is that there is no need for him to take my opinion. I am not the one making decisions of punishing
the army's command who would be my supervisor or the head of the army who is also my supervisor. He is the minister of
defense I end up the one making the decisions of who will get punished and who will not?
We will continue in the next episode, your Excellency, the Ambassador, thank you very much for your presence with us.
Our viewers, we have reached the end of this episode of Political Memory with ambassador Johnny Abdo , former director of
the Lebanese intelligence. Thank you for watching and we will meet next week at the same time .
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