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Welcome to tonight's Panorama and we start a summary of the most important news. In Syria , 160 people were
killed, today , by the fire of the Regime Forces. According to the Coordination Committees,
115 of them were killed in Syrian regime warplanes raids on a fuel station in Al Mulayhah in Damascus countryside,
while dozens of people were queuing up to get
fuel.
In the field developments, the FSA announced that " the battle to liberate Taftanaz Military Airport, in the
countryside of Idlib , has started".
This airport is considered one of the most important airports in northern Syria . The coordination committees announced
that the FSA brought down an helicopter in the city.
In Egypt , the fact-finding committee, which was formed by president Mohamed Morsi
to investigate the killing of demonstrators in Egypt ,
condemned the police and security officials and accused them
of firing live bullets on protesters. The committee asked
to recall hundreds of those involved in the killings, among
them
former political and military officials. Morsi received a copy of the report and asked the committee to send the
report and annexes to the public prosecution allowing it to launch its investigations concerning the above-mentioned
facts.
On the other hand, Mahmoud Hussein , the secretary-general of
the Muslim brotherhood group, accused in his statements for
Al Arabiya , the opposition's Rescue front of being
politically bankrupted and believed that its political
representation is weak.
We are not saying that they are not present , we have never said that they are a group of individuals with no presence
among the people, we said that their representation is weak and that they are politically bankrupted.
The political action requires someone to go down to the
streets and, talk to the public and persuade him of what he
is saying. If what they are claiming is true, and they
reject the constitution and are representing the majority,
they would have called that majority to gather and say No to
the constitution. But this was not the case and the opposite
was proven.
We move to Iraq , where the number of demonstrators in
Samarra , north of the capital Baghdad , increased in protest
against the government's measures. The demonstrations also
continued in Al - anbar and tribes from southern Iraq also
participated in the demonstrations.
From its side, Ninawa province announced that it is about to end the sit-ins, which were scheduled for only three days
after submitting a memorandum to the federal government asking it to implement the demonstrators' requests.
The Iranian army announced that it seized since September
2011 two American made reconnaissance planes without pilot
RK 11.
The Iranian military official stressed in a statement to
state's television on the fact that the Iranian army seized
the first plane in the period between August and September
2011, and the second one between October and November of
last year. He added that
research center team affiliated to the Iranian army investigated into the planes case and collected a lot of
information. The brief has ended, moments and we will open tonight's Panorama files. [music]
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[ad] Welcome to Panorama tonight . We will be discussing the following, is the new electoral law promoting the hegemony
of the Muslim Brotherhood over the Egyptian political scene?
Will Algeria change its position regarding a military
intervention in North Mali ?
How is it responding to the calls of its kidnapped
diplomats? [music] A new electoral law in Egypt awaits being
adopted by the Shoura Council before it gets to president
Mursi
a law that provoked controversy between the political forces. The opposition will not let it pass without adding some
modifications in the margin to the old law in order to make it more suitable with the new constitution and the article
231 which defined the form of parliamentary elections
the same article which the opposition sees as emphasizing what it described as the Muslim Brotherhood state and enabling
them to acquire the legislative and executive powers.
and from a constitutional point of view, regarding the
legitimacy of the new electoral law, the indicators are
clear to proceed in the way to its recognition and the
appeal would be against the constitution. After the success
in imposing the constitution
would the Muslim Brotherhood succeed in law enforcement deemed adequate to conduct parliamentary elections and how could
it guarantee victory in the next elections
The parliamentary elections draft law put to discussion between the Egyptian political components raised many reactions
between supporters and conservatives on what it contains of articles that make its application
one of the most complicated voting processes in any parliamentary elections due to the distribution of its members
between one - third elected on the basis of the closed proportionality list and one - third for the individuals.
The law, according to its supporters, especially the Muslim
Brotherhood, is far from danger, which allowed the supreme
constitutional court to appeal against the old law, as the
independents were allowed to run as candidates within the
lists
in addition to allowing party members to run from individual constituencies. And this is makes equal the winning chances
for both parties. The difference between the new and the old law did not affect the essence
but rather touched on some formalities. The new law confirmed the election of two - third of seats based on the closed
proportionality list for parties and independents and one - third of the individual candidates, for these percentages to
represent all the provinces' seats
for half the deputies to be representatives of the workers and farmers sectors, and each list should contain a women
candidate that and to be mentioned in the first half of the list. In this condition, it
is different from the old law which did not take note of the position of women in the list. The new law placed an
electoral threshold to the successful list in the electoral circle represented by one third of the votes of the winning
candidate from the individual circle.
Some considered that it allows big parties controlling half the seats of any department. The new law gave the
revolutionary youth something and took from them something else on other hand. It allowed every Egyptian reached
the age of twenty five to run for elections without taking into consideration the military service law, which extends to
the age of thirty and the legal problems formed for many of them.
Hasan Fahes , Al Arabiya . l To talk about this issue, with us
from Cairo Dr.
Saad Mara , undersecretary of the foreign relations committee
in the Shura council and a leading figure in the party of
freedom and justice. And will join us later in the episode
Essam Al - Islamboli , constitutional jurist and lawyer in Cassation. Welcome Dr. Saad , the new election law establishes
the state of Muslim brotherhood, and able them to control over the legislative and executive powers.
This is what the opposition says. What is your response in
the Muslim brotherhood?
l In the beginning, my greetings to you and to all viewers.
Of course, it is not right to say that it is a brotherhood law, it is an Egyptian law came by the constituent assembly
of the constitution to represent all sectors of the Egyptian people
and not a law to the Muslim Brotherhood.
So, my point is that the law is not tied to the size of the Muslim Brotherhood
to impose their control over the legislative and executive powers, right?
yes, it is a law that came based on a national consensus
inside the Constituent Assembly of the Constitution and approved by most political forces or all political forces. Now,
some forces are saying that it is tied to the Muslim Brotherhood, but this talk
is untrue.
We see that whoever has a popularity within the Egyptian
community, whether the Brotherhood or liberals or leftists,
and whoever has its presence in the street will win in the
end, because there are points that can be in favor of the
Muslim brotherhood or against
the Liberals or against the youths. Even when the youths say
that the report was taken by the right hand and given by the
left one ,
this talk is not true, because the youths may be included in the lists of parties
On the other hand, the youths and elderly can submit individual lists because this law allowed
the independents and the parties each to have lists in which both the independents and the parties can participate.
Ok , you said that the constituent assembly drafted the Egyptian constitution. But, isn't that the core of the dispute?
What happened to the constitutional committee from which the majority of the civil forces in Egypt withdrew?
I remind everyone that the constituent assembly from which some withdrew,
has worked consecutively for five and a half months, and
agreed on 90% of the articles of the constitution. The
people who objected and withdrew
from the committee did that on the last half month of the
work of the legislative assembly and, therefore, this
withdrawal did not affect
the heart of the constitution, and everyone acknowledged the efforts deployed by all participants. One of the withdrawn
members was a chairman of a committee
and he was Christian and he had a very important role that was praised by all participants. Most of the political forces
or all the political forces agreed together on 90% of this constitution before
it will go through referendum and perhaps the 10 % or the 5% was after everyone retreated. We call everyone. President
Mursi has been calling for two full months
for them to come back so that he can continue his dialogue and so that there is consensus on all the articles of the
constitution, but they preferred to withdraw and that means
that I personally do not approve of him, and I think that the idea of dialogue is a main, important and influential idea
in every situation and especially in a situation
similar to the one Egypt is found in today
Well, you said that 90% of the constitution's articles was approved. Is the article 131 one of these accepted articles?
Article 231 stipulates that the coming legislative elections with an effective constitutional date will reserve two
thirds of the seats fr the list and one third for the
for the individual system and the parties and independent candidates have the right to run in both cases. I think that
this article, I'm not sure though because I am not part of the constituting committee, but I think that this article
is one of the articles that were agreed upon
Now, our colleague Issam al- Islambouli is joining. He is the constitutional expert and lawyer in the court of cassation
Mr. Issam , welcome.
We wanted you to be with us since the beginning of the episode, but there were technical problems which prevented your
presence. Perhaps you did not hear what Dr. Saad Amara said, but he said that this constitution
or the article that stipulates the parliamentary elections was approved by all the civil forces and the civil party in
Egypt and did not fit the Muslim brotherhood
No, this is not true because the constitution article which you are talking about mentioned the transitional provisions
because all the forces were demanding that the election be carried out based on the open proportionality system but the
group insisted on combining between the list and the individual law
They wanted it to be all individual because this will give them more freedom or ability to influence people with money
or religious publicity, but they
insisted to keep this period transitional and that the constitution stipulates it to restrict the legislator when it
comes to choosing which electoral system to adopt. Consequently, the main problem
is that drafting a law that would combine between the list
and the individual system would contradict in fact with the
principle
of equal opportunities because of the impossibility of doing
so between lists and individuals. Therefore, there would
still be a major problem
for the constitutional court because, for the first time ,
there will be a certain control on the constitution. The
constitutional court
you will say that there is a contradiction between the idea of equality and the idea of equal opportunities, but in the
end, and as stipulated in the constitution, all articles must apply this text.
Dr. Saad Amara , how do you reply? / Good day ,
I might disagree with Mr. Issam Al -islamboli on the issue of the equal opportunities,
because there are equal opportunities to the independents allowing them to be apply for the elections within lists and
these lists might also be running as independent.
With regards to what the Muslim brotherhood said on the fact that they always win individual elections because
of the bribes and other forms, I believe that this is unrealistic and untrue.
The Muslim brotherhood used to win in the past even though
the elections were falsified and and without any electoral
bribes,
they used to win because the people used to greatly sympathize with them, and I believe that
that the previous elections knew a very big difference in the popularity of the Muslim brotherhood. There was
a media impact on the popularity, perhaps in the presidential election and also in the referendum on the constitution.
So, the matter is not, in my opinion,
a question of election law as it is a question of a popular presence and sympathy and the people's regard to
the candidates who are, originally , achieving their interests.
Well. Mr.
Isam , why all this predjuge against the Muslim Brotherhood,
and even before the beginning of elections? The Brotherhood,
as Dr. Saad said, were achieving positive results in the
previous elections, even in the era of president Mubarak ?
In the era of president Mubarak , they were enjoying a genuine sympathy because they were also among the forces that
were exposed to persecution. Later on, however,
they started using religious slogans, mosques areas and offering electoral bribes and foodstuffs.
Actually, all this was embodied very clearly in the previous phase of the recent parliamentary elections stage,
whether of the People's Assembly or Shura council then in the referendum.
March nineteen and then in referendum on the presidential elections and then in the constitutional referendum. The
propaganda, slogans, and the use of mosques appeared clearly.
In addition to the electoral bribes. The referendum granted the people the ability to prevent Christians
to enter the hall. I want to say an important thing that Muslim brotherhood
are passing through three stages stage. First, the stage of the doctrine and call, then the stage of deployment and
then finally the stage of empowerment. And they are in the phase of empowerment.
They will not hesitate to use any means, whether legal or illegal, whether by force or religious terrorism.
Because this is the stage which is considered the end to
them. So, if they failed, it will in be a setback.
Therefore, I think
that the coming battle will be characterized in all aspects
of violating the law, even if it led to the use of violence
in all its forms.
We watched some scenes of it during the final stage.
Dr. Saad , are you determined to do everything necessary
even if the use of violence was necessary to complement this stage, according to Mr. Issam ./ To tell you the truth, I am
surprised to hear that, what he is saying is considered
a religious terrorism, how did it happen? The Muslim Brotherhood are always peaceful and they win
through their communication with the street, and revealing
people's problems and trying to solve them. What he is
saying on the fact that the Christians departments were
objected, was completely declined by the judicial system and
declared to be wrong.
We do not want for this bad publicity to be promoted or discussed. This publicity and what was said about the bribes and
similar accusations proved that the Egyptian people are smarter than the elite that is promoting this talk. The
Egyptian people is much smarter than they thought and he was able to wisely detect who he shall elect. If the Muslim
Brotherhood were that powerful, their candidate Dr .
Mohamad Morsi wouldn't have one with one 51.5%, he would have won with 75%. But the Egyptian people, and in every single
phase, can choose wisely. I truly hope that we no longer hear such talk
about the Egyptian terrorism.
Egyptians are out of the market, they can go to the elections with all their strength and their will and say whatever
they want.
How could be possible to have terrorism and who is behind this terrorism? No one [ not clear]. The Muslim Brotherhood
nor any other party can practice terrorism, it is not even in the doctrine of the Muslim Brotherhood,
and the Egyptian people is much more important and smarter than all the elite that is talking about electoral bribes
Mr. Issam why this aspersion on the brotherhood as Dr. Saad is saying?
It is not an aspersion,
this is something that happened for real . We all saw what happened in front of the federal palace and how the militias
entered and attacked the demonstrators,
and got beaten and killed, therefore this is not a lie.
This is the reality. If the Egyptians were really smarter, then they are smarter than the Brotherhood and, God willing,
they will succeed to face this method and these slogans./ Dr. Saad , who assaulted the demonstrators before the
presidential palace? Weren't they the Muslim brotherhood? This is what Mr. Issam is wondering about.
The Brotherhood were the victims.
Members of them died, shot in the head; more than eleven people from the Muslim brotherhood. How would they kill
themselves? This is not logical.
If they were really the aggressors, how could they be the victims? This is not reasonable, nor is it realistic.
l Okay, Mr.
Issam you are a jurist and a constitutional lawyer in Cassation and an expert in law. How could the Brotherhood members
kill themselves?/ First,
it is not right for him to accuse us of lying, or else I could do the same. / Let us say the truth Mr. Issam /
They attacked the demonstrators and entered the battles with the protesters so naturally there will be victims from both
sides. But who made them assault the protesters in the first place?
Why did they use means of violence to try to break the
sit-in. What brought them there? That is the question. All
the clashes which took place
many victims fell everywhere and this is natural in any clash, but why did they go to the protesters at the Itihadiya
Federal Palace, that is the question.
We saw on all the satellite broadcasting channels these images, and everyone in the world saw and heard itWe saw on all the satellite broadcasting channels these images, and everyone in the world saw and heard it
Ok , let's not talk about the past, let's talk
about the future Dr. Saad , will this article stay the same and won't anything change in the electoral law?
I think, of what I saw from the Muslim Brotherhood to the Itihadiya , that no one can monopolize Egypt's squares, neither
Tahrir nor Itihadiya , and whoever protests like all the Egyptians is considered aggressive. Those who attacked
the president's convoy and smashed his car and beat his driver up, do they ever ask themselves whether or not their
methods are peaceful? The opposition should
rise against violent methods just like everyone else. There are political methods that everyone should resort to. As for
the electoral law, I think that the Shoura Council today
started a legislative agenda topped by this law. We think that there will be a dialogue between the political forces and
the Shoura Council. They called for it today in fact
I think that all political sides should resort to dialogue instead of talking through the media. They should discuss
this law in
the presidential headquarters, as president Mohamed Morsi called for. The Dialogue sessions are always held but
they boycott them or they come to the Shura council knowing that this Dialogue is on our agenda.
We welcome them all and i say to Mr.... that i am not accusing him of lying, i do not do this at all. However, i am
speaking on the same principle; there are unreal things promoted by some.
Mr. Isam , the dialogue is the solution, right? -yes
yes
The dialogue is the solution and that was called for by Dr . Saad and said by the Muslim Brotherhood
The dialogue must take place in every part of the
society, on all satellite channels and in all the very
important places. The people participate in it and the
evidence is that Doctor, himself, is debating now on the
satellite channels.
So, why is he allowed and others not? The social dialogue
includes all the media, all the legislative and
parliamentary councils and newspapers. People must
participate in the social dialogue.
Well, this dialogue is only on satellite channels but what
about the places allocated to the Dialogue, which was
called for by president Morsi ?
I say the dialogue must be held in all places, whether parliamentary or legislative ones,
newspapers or satellite channels. What prevents that?
Dr. Saad , you have a comment, go ahead.
Yes, we welcome Mr. Isam
and all the leaders of the salvation front to come to the Shura council
which is the natural place for dialogue away from the cameras. We can talk,
disagree and assume. We do not mind at all.
Excuse me to intervene, Dr.
Saad we do not want a dialogue away from the cameras in closed chambers but we want a dialogue where all Egyptians can
listen and participate.
I do not mean that.
I do not mean to limit the dialogue on this, but the nature if the world that all dialogues between different parties
start in rooms and then all go out
and announce what they want.
Then we talk on satellites and there must be a societal
dialogue and we welcomed all the laws that
the Shura council will work based on it to have a societal dialogue on the satellite channels and others. But this is
not an alternative to the dialogue in the Shura council,
presidential palace or anywhere else where opponents meet
Mr. Issam why does the Egyptian opposition fear the dialogue?
No, there is no fear but the
Egyptian constitution did not gain a societal dialogue after
forming it and the people were deprived of a societal
dialogue and on the constitution and the brothers in the
founding committee are a faction of the Muslim brotherhood
did what they want
by forbidding the people from social dialogue about the constitution. Between finishing the constitutional plan until
the referendum, it should not exceed 15 days; therefore, there will be no social dialogue about the constitution. It
will only be imposed on the people, this is why
the political forces' position was negative, they refused the social dialogue and despite that, the Rescue Front sent a
complete plan for political rights, the electoral system, transfer to
the president's consultant or the assistant of the president. This is supposedly proposed by the Shura council, there's
a complete proposed project in fact.l Ok , Essam Al - Islamboli
the constitutional scholar and the lawyer in the court of appeal, thank you a lot. Dr. Saad Amara , the agent of external
relationships in the Shoura Council and the leader in the Freedom and Justice party, thank you too.
The end of the first part of Panorama has come to an end, we will be back after the break to discuss in the second part,
will Algeria resort to a military intervention in Mali to diplomatically free the detained?
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[Ad] Welcome back to Panorama.
In what it seemed as a message of warning to the Algerian government of the consequences of taking part in any foreign
military intervention in north Mali , kidnapped Algerians diplomats appeared in video recording whereby they called on
president Abdul Aziz Bouteflika to work for their release.
The message, as expected as it was, made some people wonder about the timing, especially that it came after the
objection of Algeria's opposition to any military action in the face of armed groups in northern Mali and its call for
dialogue
Will this recording push the Algerian government to carry out a military intervention to save its diplomats? Or will it
force it to stick to its declared position that calls for dialogue?
And why does the Algerian government reject the military option to face the militants in Mali , the option that it
resorted to since '93 to counter the risk of such groups within its borders?
The division in northern shake the rest of the region's countries. The extremist groups that grasp
there are expanding in all directions threatening to turn the coast and the desert in Africa into grooves of terror
stretching from the Atlantic Ocean to the Red Sea .
I call on the president of the republic, Mr. Abdelaziz Bouteflika
Algeria is compelled to receive more messages and signals that might be dragging it to dive in the swamp
of its kidnapped diplomats. After their abduction by the Movement for Tawhid and Jihad was extended to nine months, they
asked the president Bouteflika to intervene to settle their issue. Algeria , which already knew such
an experience in the mid-nineties and which always seems hesitant about military intervention, planned to be in northern
Mali , is now facing tough choices. In fact, it can not ignore its kidnapped diplomats
and had made plans to carry out a military operation that
was cancelled by Bouteflika at the last moment in last
April . This means, in principle,
that Algeria does not object to military action against extremist groups outside its territory, especially that its
forces are an expert in dealing with such groups. However, some analysts
see that the Algerians perhaps fear the consequences of intervention if the magic turned against the magician and
extremist groups resorted to launch bloody attacks on countries, which agree to intervene against it.
The fragility of the whole regional situation can not be ignored after the changes that took place in Tunisia , Libya
and Egypt , which make the whole area a waist soft that can not bear big shocks. However, in return,
It seems that the danger of the extremist groups is too big, especially that they are trying to establish themselves as
a country in the heart of Africa , which makes a lot of people believe that the military intervention is inevitable.
Algeria is facing two bitter choices, but perhaps it is time to settle its choices. Khalid Alawais , Al Arabiya
To tackle this issue, we have with us from Algeria , Dr. Ahmed Azimi , a political analyst.
Dr. Ahmed , welcome to tonight's panorama. Is there any relation between this infiltrated recording on the
Algerian diplomats who are held as hostages and whom we referred to in this report, and the approval of the security
council to the military intervention in northern Mali
and the fact that this African international intervention is perhaps close?
No, I don't think that there is a relationship between these two matters. However, these terrorist groups
that belong to Al -qaeda have a special strategy in contact.
I am working on a discussion about the strategy of Al -qaeda in the communication process, and we notice that Al -qaeda is
continuously working
on some operations of this type and it is using the hostage
as a communication message or means to get funds. It is also
using it
as a means to complicate the crisis between countries. Therefore, the appearance of this tape,
that does not mean that there is a relationship with any
decision by the security council rather a message to say to
Algeria
"Those diplomats are still alive and we can cause them damage or perhaps release them if you accept our conditions,"
this is how I see things. They are used
to this kind of disrespect and this type of message
Okay, so why did they pick this timing? Why Algeria in
particular?Especially that there is a clear and honest
position against
the intervention in northern Mali and this is Algeria's position since the beginning of the crisis
The timing is caused to them being used that whenever they have hostages
from European countries, and every time these hostages appear, the public opinion, the families and the press act. The
situation is different when it comes to Algeria or other Arab countries,
as it is completely different from the situation in Europe . Here there is no public opinion, no civil society and no
pressure on the authority, and therefore such messages
is only a reminder that those hostages were still with the kidnappers and that a solution must be found. So far, there
is no solution because the group which kidnapped the Algerian diplomats
asks for the impossible from Algeria . It asks for a ransom
and Algeria is behind a law or decision by the security
council not to pay a ransom
It requests ransom for the release of prisoners. We can not imagine that the Algerian authority can release terrorists
who took up weapons against the state and killed citizens, policemen and others.
It is a kind of death dialogue. l This leads me to the
question, why does Algeria insist to stand neutral regarding
this crisis
and not interfere military although its diplomats are kidnapped in northern Mali ?l Yes, true, the diplomats are
kidnapped, but the military solution is not feasible.
And we remember that USA tried once a strong military intervention in Iran for the liberation of its diplomats who were
kidnapped at the American embassy. France tried since around a year and a half
for the liberation of its kidnapped people in northern Mali and the result was that the kidnapped was killed.
Therefore, the military solution is not possible because in
a such situation the matters are not easy at all and require
a lot of wisdom, patience
and care. The military intervention is not possible to liberate hostages, this is known. The military intervention now
in north Mali as the intervention
of foreign countries and foreign forces in the north of Mali , Algeria is also against it, why? Because it knows that any
foreign military intervention in any place and in any country do not solve the problems. We know the situation
in Iraq , Afghanistan and Somalia . Even, the United States
of America , which is the biggest force in the world's
largest military forces, was not able to do anything in
Somalia , but the American military forces escaped before
the starving people of Somalia .
We can not face and bomb with artillery. These groups are
very few, trained for guerrilla warfare and located in an
area of
of 900 000 km2 in the north of..., but they extend to 9
million km2 in the whole coast region. Therefore, they talk
now about 6600 soldiers.
I wonder because even who do not understand anything at all in the military strategy will say: how can 6600 soldiers
move? and on any front to confront these groups in all this area?
The solution is not a foreign military intervention, and
that is understood by Algeria . The solution is in the
framework of a Mali - Mali Dialogue in order to flush out the
terrorist groups and fight them by the residents of the same
country.
Ok , let's move on to another axis in this Dialogue. joining
us from Paris Osman Tajgard , a researcher on Islamic
movements. Mr. Osman welcome to you
to this bulletin. There was talk between me and Dr. Ahmed Azimi on the hostage crisis and Algerian diplomats residing
in northern Mali and on the non-success
of any military intervention in northern Mali .
The question once again is why Algeria refrains from participating in any military campaign in northern Mali ?
especially after the international spotlight, who certified this participation?
The reality of the Algerian position
has two folds; the first part consists of the non-interference in the affairs of sovereign countries
as called by the united nations and the rejection of any western intervention in the third world countries and
considering such an intervention as a form of a new colonialism.
This is considered one of the pillars of diplomacy since the Algerian independence and it is difficult to imagine that
Algeria might violate this taboo
to accept or participate in any way in Mali . Even if we refer to the information published few days ago
in Algerian newspapers about the existence of a military operation that was planned in the few days and hours following
the kidnapping of the Algerian hostages in Mali , and aiming at intervening to free them, but was stopped at the last
moment by president Bouteflika because of its dogmatism,
this shows that this case is related to the military
non-intervention in countries of sovereignty from one part.
On the other part,
experts not only in Algeria , but also western experts are wondering about the feasibility of such a military
intervention. The African forces can certainly descend to Mali and liberate
Gao and Timbuktu and that the extremist groups be forced to disappear from the cities into the desert. But later these
forces that would be around three thousand
or five thousands fighters, it will be easy for these groups as there will be no traditional military front. Things will
be the same as in Afghanistan where
Taliban went out of sight and was fighting the western alliance soldiers there; so, out of fear
of turning the military operations into a battle front
that attracts thousands of volunteers for jihad from
different nationalities.
Therefore, this will create a new focus of tension, and then
when the
international troops would go away, it would leave behind chaos, same as the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan . This
is our fear. Dr. Ahmed Azimi , you said in previous statements that Algeria is the target of military intervention in the
coast; On what did you build this information?
Western countries have discussion centers and also has previous experiences. They have learned well that
Any military intervention in this region will not solve the crisis, but it aggravates it. Aggravating the crisis will
only harm Algeria . We already have a road map in mind, or map, excuse me,
one of the American generals talks about it.
It is found on the internet, and any citizen can access it through searching for a map on Google , and he will find a lot
of information about it that is related to the Middle East
and the Gulf . They say that there is no use in the
meantime,;therefore, we have to set a new map for the
region. They started by dividing Sudan into
two states and Iraq today is divided into three small states. In Syria too, the situation in Syria
Dr. Ahmad , we are not talking about the Gulf , how will this division include Algeria ?
Yes, this is why we see that Algeria is targeted because it is the largest Arab country and the largest African country,
and the riches of Algeria are in the South. America and France have major interests in
in the Sahel region and South of Algeria too. This is why we
assume that if they wanted to solve the problem, they would
have solved it
three or four years ago.
There were small groups that could have been observed
through satellites and that they knew of the existence of
these groups. They will not do anything anything, on the
contrary, even the African countries to get rid of these
groups and they
come today and tell us that there should be a military intervention. Therefore to constantly say that the north is a a
place to drain the Algerian revolutions
to break the Algerian army. Israel says that the largest army in the region today , and specifically in north Africa ,
which could threaten Israel is the Algerian army. They talk about arming this army
and its budget considered to be the biggest in north Africa , this is why I say that Algeria is targeted.
Mr. Othman , Algeria is targeted and there is a conspiracy beyond the north of Mali is this true?
Of course the talk on the conspiracy theory always has a kind of [not clear ], but if we want
to be objective, we can not imagine that countries such as
France can be plotted on Algeria . France will not find a
system
that serves its interests in the Arab Maghreb better than the Algerian system. Algeria has turned into a market of
France all [ not clear] are linked to France
This regime can not offer more than it has been offering since its independence to France with regards to political and
economic service. All the resources
[not clear] ruling in Algeria are available in Europe , and particularly in France and it is receiving all the
protection. In case France wanted to overthrow this regime, it would have done that in the nineties, when it was
a fragile regime about to collapse, and if this regime was able to overcome the crisis of the nineties,
it is because of France's for it. There is a popular speech in Algeria stating that whenever a politician wants to
improve his popularity, he criticizes France and then go
to spend the weekend in Paris . We can no longer believe this speech and now we are
on the edge of the great changes that occur in the region. What is happening in northern Mali ? There are, of course, a
lot of ambitions and interventions and Algeria is not innocent from these
ambitions. Ansar El Din movement is established by the Algerian intelligence. France and America are conspiring.
But a lot of efforts were made to reassure countries across the region saying that the forces that would intervene will
be African forces and there will be no direct participation of neither western American nor French.
But there is only a logistical support, although everyone knows that France is leading this campaign, I do not think
that those who want to weaken the Algerian regime go
to wage a war in northern Mali and I do not know how he would later intervene in Algeria . It is enough
for the western countries to lift its protection and say that the existing regime in Algeria is illegal. It is enough
for it to seize the smuggled and illegal funds in
in presidential palaces to let this regime collapse. l We
are out of our subject, which we talk about. We talk
about an Arab spring in Algeria and this might be a point
away from the Dialogue.
Allow me to convey the question again to Dr. Ahmed Azimi .
Dr. Ahmed .
Away from the conspiracy theory, why we do not limit the problem to northern Mali ? France will not intervene directly
and forces, which will go to northern Mali , are African troops
and not French or American ones. Do you hear me doctor Ahmed ? It seems that Dr. Ahmed Azimi is not hearing me.
I would like to thank him because we come to the end of this episode. I continue with Othman . Mr. Othman , perhaps the
talk about the problem of north Mali turned into the survival of the regime
and into the extent of the regime's relationship with France . However, why we do not really limit the problem to
northern Mali and say that France is committed to the countries in the region and trying to
save Mali from this separatist movements.
France when it wants to move in this area, it fears of the fact that the groups stationed there are a background base
to strike the European interests.
We do not forget that the regimes, which were playing the role of guard dogs in the Arab Maghreb to protect Europe from
the clandestine immigration and terrorism, fell: the regime in Libya fell as well as the regime of Ben Ali in Tunis .
Now, these groups can keep infiltrating. These groups are monitoring, since the nineties, all movements of cigarette
smuggling, drug trafficking and smuggling of Chinese immigrants to Italy and can send terrorists to these networks.
There are no more regimes trusted by the West countries to play the role of guard dogs, as was the case during the
regime of Ben Ali and Qaddafi .
within these networks, there are no longer any systems that you can trust of western countries to play the role of a
guard dog like the Gaddafi regime used to do in the region. So, there are fears
of this area being a background for organizing operations against Europe and France is trying to interfere in the region
but before
But, Mr. Othman , these fears are not new, al- Qaeda is already rooted in the Maghreb countries
There was also talk about the arrival of arms from some of the Arab Spring countries especially Libya
Of course
the weapons which flowed from Libya after the revolution allowed these groups to have
what it never dreamed of. There were
on a small camp of this region, related to the border with Mali . They were surprised to see that these forces used
against them french made anti-missile launchers
and tank launchers which were given by Qatar to Libyan
insurgents. There are security reports that published this
information
here in France
So, these concerns are in place. Mr.
Othman Tiziar researcher in Islamic movements affairs, thank you very much and thank you also to our guest from Algeria ,
Dr. Ahmed Aaatini , the political analyst.
This is all we have in the panorama for tonight and to this week . In next week's panorama, you will be with my colleague