Talking Turkey About Zionism
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is in trouble again with Washington and Tel Aviv because he dared to equate Zionism with fascism and anti-Semitism as an ideology or political movement that has brought oppression. Erdogan was speaking at a United Nations sponsored Alliance of Civilizations conference in Vienna dealing with instilling tolerance. He spoke in Turkish, but his words as translated into English were, "It is necessary that we must consider – just like Zionism or anti-Semitism or fascism – Islamophobia is a crime against humanity." Erdogan was immediately pounced upon by the usual suspects and new American Secretary of State John Kerry was also quick to pull the trigger by saying, "We not only disagree with it. We found it objectionable." He also stated that the comments did not help the Israel-Palestine peace process. That there is no peace process due to Israel’s unwillingness to countenance an actual Palestinian state with genuine sovereignty is apparently irrelevant, but then again it has been irrelevant to American policymakers ever since 1967, when the Israelis first occupied the remaining land that they had not already taken in the aftermath of the 1947 partition of Palestine.
Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu spoke afterwards with Kerry and disagreed, observing that in 2010 Israel had attacked a Turkish flagged vessel in international waters and killed nine Turkish citizens who were seeking to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza. He noted that "If Israel wants to hear positive statements from Turkey it needs to reconsider its attitude both towards us and towards the West Bank."
Erdogan and Davutoglu were referring to how political Zionism has denied fundamental human rights to the Palestinians that it displaced by force starting at the time of partition and continuing to the present. Neither contested the right of the Jewish people to have a homeland, but were simply pointing out that Zionism as it has been practiced has caused considerable human suffering, just as fascism and anti-Semitism have done in other places and at other times. Historically speaking, some Zionists believed that Jews should return to Biblical Israel by purchasing land and would learn to live alongside their Arab neighbors while others argued, that the Arabs would have to be removed. In the event, the latter view has prevailed. One would think that the egregious and well documented Israeli human rights violations inflicted on the Palestinians would be obvious to everyone, even in Washington, and that there might even be some cautiously expressed understanding of what lay behind the Turkish Prime Minister’s remarks. But that was perhaps inevitably not the case and a goodly part of the U.S. media and chattering class quickly expressed their outrage.
Erdogan has long been one of the preferred targets of neocon rage. The Turkish prime minister dared confront Israel’s President Shimon Peres at an international meeting in Davos in January 2009. Referring to the slaughter of Gazan civilians earlier that month, Erdogan told Peres "…you know well how to kill." The sharp exchange exemplified Israel’s richly deserved public relations problem. The coverage of the Erdogan-Peres exchange was carefully managed in the U.S. media, but somewhat more unrestrained in Europe and the Middle East. In the one hour discussion of Gaza that was moderated by David Ignatius of The Washington Post, a far from impartial participant, Peres was allowed twenty-five minutes to speak in defense of the Israeli attack. Erdogan was given twelve minutes. During the debate, Peres pointed accusingly at Erdogan and raising his voice. When Erdogan sought time to respond, Ignatius granted him a minute and then cut him off claiming it was time to go to dinner. Erdogan complained about the treatment and left Davos, vowing never to return. Back in Turkey, he received a hero’s welcome.
Over at Commentary magazine, the American Enterprise Institute’s Michael Rubin led the charge against Erdogan’s most recent comments, writing that, "…when they argue for the criminalization of Islamophobia, Erdogan and his fellow traveler seek to ban…criticism of the more radical outliers of radical Islamism." It is interesting that Rubin is able to interpret what Erdogan was thinking, but he then adds a clincher: under Erdogan, "the murder rate of women has increased 1,400 per cent," suggesting somehow that the Turkish government is responsible. And there is more. Rubin asserts that Erdogan doesn’t like press freedom with Turkey ranking 154 among nations, just behind Mexico (it might be noted that Israel ranks 112, after Panama, while the United States is 32).
Joining the attack, David Goldman, a former leftist and Lyndon LaRouche cultist who has now turned conservative, wrote that, "Lunatics have run better countries that Turkey in living memory" before going off on a tangent to tell how people in Anatolia believe in black magic. He also added that Erdogan has a "bizarre edge" since he believes that Turks living in Europe should not assimilate, that they should retain their culture and Turkish identity. Rod Dreher in a piece entitled "Turkey under Islamist Rule" then piled on the scrum by quoting Goldman and Rubin at length before adding that "Turkey is one of the region’s worst violators of religious freedom…Turkey is a great country, but it is not part of the west, and absent a tremendous change, mustn’t be allowed to be."
Even assuming that all the assertions made by Goldman, Rubin and Dreher are true, what do the media, murder statistics, Islamophobia, witchcraft, the European Union, and religious freedom have to do with whether Erdogan was right or wrong about Zionism? Nothing, and the essentially ad hominem arguments themselves reveal along the way considerable ignorance about contemporary Turkey and the Turkish people, a condition that has never caused a single neoconservative to falter one bit. The fact is that it is Zionism that has created the intellectual and political framework for the continuing dispossession of the Palestinian people. Rubin argues that, "to be anti-Zionist…is to believe that Israel should cease to exist." Well, that is a convenient way to put it, but it is just not so. Israel exists and thanks to U.S. aid is the regional military hegemon. Turkey and most other majority Islamic countries recognize that reality and have understood it for years. Turkey also has a good record towards its Jewish minority. The Ottomans took in Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain in 1492 and the community has prospered since that time. Ankara in was in fact a close friend to Israel prior to the killing of its citizens and there have been reports that behind the scenes the two countries continue to cooperate.
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, founder of modern Turkey, believed that Islam had held his country back so he insisted on a state in which religion had no part, even adopting the Latin alphabet to replace the Quranic Arabic script that Turkish had hitherto employed. That view persists and Kemalist well-educated Turks, of which I know many, tend not to be religious or are even hostile to religion. They include most journalists, academics, businessmen, and army officers. They are capable of considerable pushback in the Turkish political system, note for example the headscarf in schools controversy, to include active and quite effective opposition political parties. The contention that Turkey is somehow "Islamist" ruled promoted by Dreher and others is misleading at a minimum. The fact is, most Turks are nominally Muslim and most rural Turks have always been devout. Now, for the first time since the 1930s Anatolian peasants as well as other Turks from a more secular background are able to express freely their religiosity, which might be assumed by Rubin, Goldman, and Dreher to be a change for the better if it were any religion but Islam. Most observers who actually know anything about Turkey and are not engaging in taking cheap shots regard Erdogan and his Justice and Development Party (AKP) as both moderate and considerably less corrupt than its predecessors.
Ataturk also sought to create from the remains of the polyglot and multi-cultural Ottoman Empire a Turkish national identity. That meant that laws were passed defining Turkishness, laws that have generated periodic conflicts with Kurdish, Alevi, and Christian minorities and have led to the suppression of separate cultures and, more particularly, languages. This has produced the Kurdish problem, involving Turkey’s largest minority, which has bedeviled the country for nearly thirty years. Erdogan’s liberalization of laws to permit more Kurdish autonomy have clashed with the problem of the nation’s Turkish identify and run up against cultural and legal barriers, particularly at local levels. The Kurdish problem, which is a national security issue due to the activity of the terrorist group PKK, has also created the press freedom infringements identified by Rubin. Most journalists who have been punished by the government are Kurds who have fallen afoul of the Turkishness and counter-terrorism laws, which suggests a much more complicated dynamic than Rubin would admit to. Kurdish issues aside, the Turkish media is vibrant and not afraid to criticize the government.
Goldman’s assertion about Erdogan’s desire to have ethnic Turks retain their identity is completely off base. The Prime Minister was responding to a German law requiring Turkish children born in Germany to select either German or Turkish nationality by the time they reach age 23. Erdogan was, not surprisingly, urging them to retain their Turkish identity. And as for Dreher’s meaningless assertion that Turkey is not part of the west or "mustn’t be allowed to be," much depends on how one defines the west these days. Is it cultural, religious, ethnic, racial, geographic or none of the above? If it is values how does one accept a Christian Greece that is awash in institutional and personal corruption versus a Muslim Turkey that scores much better on those issues? And what about the various kleptocracies operating in the Balkans? Dreher suggests that Islam means that Turkey must be kept out of the European Union club, a not uncommon viewpoint but one that is essentially bogus if one examines the successful assimilation of Muslims in our own United States, for example. It is also curious that Dreher and the others do not seem to have ever objected to the oppression of Christians and Muslims alike in Israel, where religion based property seizures and official unwillingness to provide building permits, not unlike incidents occurring in Turkey, happen frequently. Christian clergy are also regularly spat upon by Israeli Jews, suggesting an even higher level of animosity on a personal level which does not seem to bother Rubin, Goldman, and Dreher.
I confess that I am defending Turkey partly because I have lived there, speak Turkish, and like the country and its people. It is also a major strategic ally of the United States, which is not true of Israel. Yes, there are many things that could be improved in Turkey but the same could be said in spades about our own country. Indeed, one might reasonably argue that Turkey is becoming more democratic while the United States is becoming less so. But when Prime Minister Erdogan says something that is manifestly true that some find offensive it perhaps would not be churlish to suggest that the critics stick to the actual comments for their rebuttals. I suppose the redirection of the argument is due to the fact that it is very difficult to defend Zionism as it has been practiced in Israel but it would be nice for a change if folks like Rubin, Goldman, and Dreher would somehow figure out that the rest of the world does not necessarily accept the various fictions that have been concocted to justify Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians.
Read more by Philip Giraldi
- The Outpost – February 27th, 2013
- Rand Don’t Need No Education – February 20th, 2013
- Towards a Christian Zionist Foreign Policy – February 13th, 2013
- A Return to Realism? – February 4th, 2013
- Have a Patriotic Super Bowl! – January 30th, 2013
Talking Turkey About Zionism - Unofficial Network
March 6th, 2013 at 11:09 pm
[...] View original article. [...]
Curious
March 7th, 2013 at 1:17 am
I thought Turkey was run by the military. Islamist is a vague term and it is being used by people who know nothing. I'd like to see the Likud supporters try to defend the Israeli version of Jim Crow. Would they support segregating Muslims in the US? They need to have more faith in classical liberalism. Dispensationalist will conditionally love Turkey (like Israel) when someone finds a passage in the bible that promises them that Yahweh will give them treats if they do so. They would also want Yahweh to kill most of the Turks in the end so they can imagine that they are sitting up in heaven watching the show, feeling smug that they were right. Turkey and Israel have both stolen American nuclear technology thou? I thought Turkey was for intervening in Syria until things went south? Will a Kurdistan come into being in the future after a regime change in Iran? I've been wondering has the US been trying to break up countries in order to form new countries along ethnic lines (undoing the mess the Brits created)?
Don
March 7th, 2013 at 2:44 am
Yes, indeed: what about the “the various kleptocracies operating in the Balkans?” The last time these territories have seen rule of law, was during the Ottoman European Union. Not long ago, an US ambassador assessed these entities as incorrigible and unchangeable and received zero publicity for both his report and the dead threats that followed. These WERE allowed to be a part from the West. Why?
Axle
March 7th, 2013 at 2:44 am
Giraldi,
You write: "If it is values how does one accept a Christian Greece that is awash in institutional and personal corruption versus a Muslim Turkey that scores much better on those issues?"
Where the hell do you come up with that???
The average greek has lower values than the average turk?
You must share with us this amazing organization that scores these attributes.
Can we get a ranking of all countries please … in descending order of people with highest "values" to lowest.
Thanks in advance bud
Jeff
March 7th, 2013 at 3:32 am
Talk about utter hypocriticy … how many Kurds have been killed by Turkey, till today the regularly slaughter them. Talk about occupation , how about N. Cyprus remember, the occupation, no one seems to care…..
Look at the recent crime against humanity you need to look no further than the brutal islamic dictators not the libral open democracy of Israel… look at freedom house map of free countries http://www.freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/M…
notice there is only one that is actually free in mideast and Aftrica it's Israel….
mickperry
March 7th, 2013 at 4:18 am
We need to be clear about this, and Israel has done much more than deny fundamental human rights to the Palestinians. It has done much more than murder members of an humanitarian aid flotilla.
It has in fact used some of the most lethal weapons of modern warfare to attack an entire civilian population that has no army, navy or air force with which to defend itself, and it has carried out these atrocities with the full support of successive US administrations.
Quentin
March 7th, 2013 at 4:39 am
If Turkey is allowed to enter the European Union it will overnight turn out to be the most populous and largest coutnry of all: 70-80 million citizens (right after Germany), increasing the population of the EU by some 15 percent, posing a big, endless drain on resources (= money, as if things aren't bad enough already). So the USA-ians can think about that a little. Their habit of pontificating on everything that happens all over the world has become very irritating (has been for quite a while). It's really a gas how few people in the USA of any political stripe realize how bossy they are. Can someone give me a definition of Europe that includes Turkey (apart from the plain assumption that it belongs)?: it is culturally and historically separate (if you disagree, then tell me in what sense it belongs; NATO, well on this site I would be flabbergasted to hear that!).
Phil Giraldi
March 7th, 2013 at 4:47 am
Axle – Check out the widely reported tax evasion and political patronage government jobs where no work is required that has brought the Greek economy to its knees. Turks score much better in those areas. I am not trying to say that anyone has better values than anyone else but just making the point that the opponents of Turkey criticize it basically because it is a Muslim country, i.e. for what it is rather than for how it behaves which is not so different than anyone else.
DanD
March 7th, 2013 at 4:47 am
"notice there is only one that is actually free in mideast and Aftrica it's Israel…."
Oh yeah, but do notice, that it is least-conditionally "free" only for its Caucasian Jewish population. Even as it is, all brown-skinned and Negro Jewish population members need not apply.
Joshua-Crow is alive and well in Zionland.
DanD
Avi
March 7th, 2013 at 4:59 am
Funny. There was little protest when Romania joined the EU, despite it being a welfare state.
Just admit it's Islamophobia that drives your arguments and get it over with.
Avi
March 7th, 2013 at 4:59 am
My post above was directed at Quentin.
Jeff
March 7th, 2013 at 5:01 am
I am sorry you forgot to mention the thousands of rockets shot from the center of these civilian populations deliberately targeting civilians. What country in the world you accept 1000's of rockets hitting their civilian population… And the use of schools, homes and mosques for bases of these missles, this is ok in your book? A million Israelis forced to live in shelters is ok? Be clear about that. Regarding the humanitarian flotilla that were beating solders with pipe and chains and stabbing them with knives, carrying medicine on board that was mostly expired and leaving letters behind explaining that they will be martyrs, really? 100 people were killed in Syria yesterday, but Israel is the war criminal. If you sell land to Jews in the PA you can be given the death penalty, in most arab countries homosexuality is a crime for which people are jailed or killed and women have few if any rights but Israel is the one violating human right…. get your facts straight…
greedrulesinDC
March 7th, 2013 at 6:10 am
Really? Political patronage government jobs brought Greece to its knees? Silly me. I thought the Troika (and the corrupt Greek politicians who sided with the Eurozone bankers) ruined Greece, just like the Troika is trying to ruin other countries in Europe. Geez, who knew that lowly civil servants could cause such damage?
What a tool you are.
Thomas Sm
March 7th, 2013 at 6:14 am
It was run by the military but I think Erdogan finally got the upper hand on them.
I think Islamism in Turkey is a problem – not because I want to tell them how to run their country, and I certainly have no love for Kemalism, but because Erdogan's flock appears to be expansionist and supporting Islamist militias abroad.
Ultimately, what Erdogan is, in my mind, is an American project. I remember meeting some NGO hacks 10 years ago in the Middle East who said they worked for a project to encourage Islamo-democratic movements. I liken this to the Catholic Church's movement from supporting anciens régimes and refusing democracy to participating and forming Christian Democratic parties about 100 years ago in Europe.
The Islamic Democratic parties can then be manipulated by the globalists as they are now in Turkey and Egypt. This does not mean they have to be pro-American on the surface, and certainly not pro-Israel, but they'll work with the IMF and World Bank, not develop independent alliances that threaten NATO, not threaten the US dollar, etc.
Thomas Sm
March 7th, 2013 at 6:27 am
I doubt it. Orthodox Christian countries are treated worse than standard Sunni Muslim ones.
Turkey might have less corruption than Greece for the time being, according to the way Transparency International or whoever rates these things, but it is going to be hard for you to convince me that its government behaves similar to other countries in the European side of its region. What other State is so touchy about offending its official whitewashed version of history? Which other government treats a 20% or so minority the same way? Actually, which other government denies that lots of minorities and minority languages exist?
I think your article is overwhelmingly correct, though, since the main issue is not whether or not Turkey is a shining beacon of light but whether Erdogan could say what he said without subjecting his country to a bunch of hypocritical abuse. If only he would finally break their alliance with Israel!
Die Wahrheit zählt
March 7th, 2013 at 6:33 am
Mick,
What you say is factual and correct, I would simply add that Israel also has the full support of many European governments in committing these crimes, particularly the German government. How Europeans view Israel is a different matter, although many are afraid to express a criticism because then they're labelled anti-s………., the usual garbage used by Israel's friends.
Thomas Sm
March 7th, 2013 at 6:35 am
Freedom House is highly politicised. So are many other international ratings coming out of globalist NGOs. For example, Georgia was rated consistently more democratic than Russia in the late 2000s even though Saakashvili's suppression of political opposition was far more violent and illegal than Putin's. That did not matter because Georgia was an ally. The Ukraine is listed sometimes as less corrupt than Russia or having a more free market, which is laughable to anyone with experience in the region. Libya is listed as partly-free now just because NATO killed Qadhaafi, but I cannot find any verified results of their 'election' on the internet.
India and Indonesia are listed as free, for God's sake! Sovereign countries will be rated down, and colonies up.
Thomas Sm
March 7th, 2013 at 6:38 am
It is mainly to do with the size of the country and potential for the uncontrolled migration of tens of millions of poor people.
I don't like Islamohysteria but it is understandable that some Europeans would like Europe to remain Christian. After all, you will have trouble starting churches in Turkey!
JoaoAlfaiate
March 7th, 2013 at 7:09 am
I find it highly interesting that the author quotes Ron Dreher's attack on Erdogan from "The American Conservative." Dreher is obviously yet another apologist for the zionist enterprise. The "TAC" used to be reliably anti-interventionist and even handed on the question of Palestine. Sad they have now gone over to the dark side.
JoaoAlfaiate
March 7th, 2013 at 7:44 am
But we are paying for israel's crimes against the Lebanese and the Palestinians. We provide political, military and diplomatic support for the zionist enterprise and therefor the United States is the target of Islamic terrorists. American support for the little hate state is clearly not worth the cost-except to our corrupt political class, of course.
PeacefulProsperity
March 7th, 2013 at 9:50 am
I am shocked that Mr.Giraldi – a person from intelligence community – is buying this fake "conflict" between Likudniks and Erdogan's party – both had election campaigns sponsored by Qatar. Erdogan received $10 billion from Qatar in 2007 to destabilize Syria (read Christof Lehman). The Gaza Flotilla crisis was a false flag operation to give Turkey more "street cred" among Arabs and Palestinians in particular – Erdogan helped Israel with their operation (forgot the source, sorry) . For the same reason we could observe this "smoke and mirrors" show of "antizionist" and "anti-Israel" Turkish narrative. Qatar has been trying to place a wedge between Iran and Palestine with money, political charades and intense PR campaigns.The goal – to weaken and isolate Iran.
Just to confirm this – see that military cooperation between Turkey and Israel has never been better. Turkey stopped blocking Israel's access to NATO, and is buying sophisticated electronic warfare from them.
There is also a very interesting article by Wayne Madsen about the role of certain Jewish minorities in Turkish population over last hundred years or so.
billy
March 7th, 2013 at 10:03 am
Erdogan's rhetoric against Zionism is laughable consider he is allowing the "rebels" to attack Syria from Turkey, and providing support to them as well. It is Assad who is the anti-Zionist. I don't know who Erdogan thinks he's fooling.
mojo
March 7th, 2013 at 10:22 am
Thew truth of the matter is that Turkish government consist of an Islamic regime.., one can say that is a modernized version of the fundamentalism within Islam.., yet the Turkish government rules the country with iron fist…, like it was governed by the military…, the Turkish economical growth is from Saudis and UAE.., Turkey is an agricultural country the booming economy is the result of real-estate investments made by the Saudis and Europeans whom are supporting and cooperating with Saudis and UAE investment in Europe and Turkey. Turkish government is a Sunny regime so is Saudis and UAE.., Turkish government want to present this version of Islam and present more of the Saudis prospectives and interests in EU.., therefore, Turkish government is eager to become the only Islamic member of the EU economic cooperation and will do anything and everything to get there.., Supporting the Syrian opposition and having a social economic and political relation with Israel is another.
omop
March 7th, 2013 at 10:26 am
As one Turkish friend put it:- " The Jews/zionists have been able to make Americans believe in absurdities and therefore have made it easy for them to allow atrocities. In the end Americans will end up paying the bigger price."
A relevant historical note of interest….. When the Spaniards threw out the Jews and the Moors from Spain it was the Ottoman Empire that took them in Turkey, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, etc,.
Constance Lurker
March 7th, 2013 at 10:42 am
Crunchycons have a soft chewy center. It should probably be called the Respectable Conservative. Larison's good, and many others, but I think the publisher may be more interested in his other hobbies than the state of current politics. Hard to blame him.
carroll price
March 7th, 2013 at 10:42 am
JoaoAlfaiate,
When have Islamic terrorist ever attacked the United States? Certainly not on 9/11. And Islamist terrorist were clearly not involved in numerous other false flag attacks such as the Underwear and Shoe Bomber episodes and several dozen other staged "terrorist attacks" arranged and carried out by the FBI.
donna
March 7th, 2013 at 11:57 am
So much for the "libral (sic) open democracy of Israel"
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/opinion/sunday/…
Axle
March 7th, 2013 at 11:58 am
Widely reported by the mainstream cocrporate controlled media? … really Giraldi ? … like the same group that reported on the weapons of mass destruction Iraq supposedly had … or the group that widely reporting on Irans nuclear bomb progress trying to get us waste that nation. Are you the same philip giraldi I usd to understand that these toilet outlets reporting these stories are mouthpieces for the most corrupt entities in the world solely dedicated to sprsading propaganda for said entities …. or are you a space cadet recently landed on earth without a clue?
You want to talk about corruption? How many actual successful military cou detats has turkey had in the past 35 years 3 or 4? Does that maybe haveahything ti do with corruption? what about worlfd wars, did turkey play any role in startting one? How many genocides has turkey been involved in? is turkey currently involved in running guns into another nations civil strife? How many people has turkey out to death over the past 50 years. Compare that with european countries.
Get your head screwed on right giraldi … your starting to sound like a clown
donna
March 7th, 2013 at 12:04 pm
Those "1000s of rockets" might have killed 13 Israelis in all the years they were fired. And they were fired because Israel has continued to steal Palestinian land. Now compare those 13 deaths with the thousands of civilian deaths the Israelis have caused in Gaza. The simple truth is: if there were no occupation, there would e no rockets. Furthermore, the Israeli militia who boarded the flotilla was fully armed and shot many of the unarmed civilians in the back and head–clearly execution-style. You cannot defend Zionism or Israel without also defending genocide, war crimes, apartheid, and murder.
conumishu
March 7th, 2013 at 1:13 pm
"welfare state" – utter absurd statement
Almost all social safety nets have been stripped out and 2 million are working outside the country. Foreign companies have full control of most of the resources, jobs (directly and through subcontractors that depend entirely on their masters) and natural monopolies – like gas, water and electricity utilities. Banks are all foreign owned and practice outrageous fees and loan interest rates. Employers enjoy all kind of privileges and employees syndicates have been reduced to mere stooges. Agriculture was completely crushed into tiny parcels of land, subsidies are well below EU standard and snubbed at by the colonial komisars in Brussels. And this process started well before Romania was swallowed by the EU monstrosity. Your statement is baseless, if not ill intended.
baz
March 7th, 2013 at 1:19 pm
err, axle…. do you realize turkey was a democracy while greece was still a fascist military dictatorship? have you ever even been to either country? in that case i just have one word for you amigo
Books!
try to pry your eyes away from the latest Kardashian episode and crack one of those suckers open
on another note, Turkey has had a stable, popular and successful government since 2002. Greece has not had the same luck, And the Coups you speak of in turkey were normally the result of our covert actions to suppress genuine popular movements.
Axle
March 7th, 2013 at 1:44 pm
Err baz,
Do you know democracy first eppeared on this earth by the greeks ocer 2400 years ago?. What stupid thing to compare turkey as a denmocracy to greece. Did you know That the military dictatorship you refer to in greece was the product of the cia (to which president clinton appologized for) and most importantly overthrown by the greek people in no time.
Turkey on the other hand:
1960 under the National Unity Committee headed by Cemal Gürsel overthrows Adnan Menderes
1971 under four force commanders of the Turkish Armed Forces overthrows Süleyman Demirel
1980 under Kenan Evren overthrows Süleyman Demirel
1997 under military commanders of the National Security Council overthrows Necmettin Erbakan
Baz
I think reading books is a good idea …. but you must be able to understand what is written in them.
Axle
March 7th, 2013 at 2:44 pm
Do you know democracy first eppeared on this earth by the greeks ocer 2400 years ago?. Did you know That the military junta you refer to in greece was the product of the cia (to which president clinton appologized for) never succ3eded and most importantly overthrown by the greek people in no time.
Turkey on the other hand:
1960 under the National Unity Committee headed by Cemal Gürsel overthrows Adnan Menderes
1971 under four force commanders of the Turkish Armed Forces overthrows Süleyman Demire
l1980 under Kenan Evren overthrows Süleyman Demirel
1997 under military commanders of the National Security Council overthrows Necmettin Erbakanr baz,
Whats that 4 successful overthrows of elected governments?
Yiu said turkey has had a stable gov since 2002 … 11 whole years! ?.. stop the presses everyone.
I also belueve books are a goid idea … but one must understand what they are reading.
Avi
March 7th, 2013 at 4:11 pm
No, in fact my statement is spot on and you helped me prove my point.
Romania's economy was in shambles — as you stated — and yet the EU took it as though it were a bum of need of welfare.
Meanwhile, Turkey's geopolitical position AND economy both stand to be a great advantage for the EU should the EU bring Turkey into that family of states.
Axle
March 7th, 2013 at 4:40 pm
Giraldi,
I have a lot respect in your writings since you left the dark side as a cia analyst. More often than not your ana0lysis is solid and you seem ti be able to speak truth to power as of late. One wonders however if you truely understand who you worked for all those years as a cia analyst. One wonders if you can really tell the diferrence between right and wrong even today … after you've been cast aside by the same people you once worked for ..or do you believe you were actually doing good for god and country. Because from where I stand, the cia has hurt this country more than almost any other organization since its founding as the blowback keeps growing and growing and will one day destroy everything we hold dear.
Do you realky believe it was the lowely worker who brought iceland, ireland, greece as reported by the oligarchs mainstream news outlets? Tomorrow it will be spain, italy, france and others … will you keep listening tto these outlets as they spin their lies. Please tell me a veteran intelligence analyst is not that naive.
The truth is that the besf thing that ever happened to turkey is that she never joined the EU … just as yhe worste thing that ever happened to european nations is to have been duped into this grand scheme to wrest sovereignty from the people of the nations and hand it over to an elite dadre of kleptocrats capable of murder and mayhem on a grand scale.
The truth is that these same elites want the inclusion of turkey into the eu … it is the people they supposedly represent that dont want it.
So here is my question to you mr ex-cia:
Why do you suppose the elites want turkeys inclusion into the eu … because they care about helping the turks?
Why do you suppose that most people in the eu do not want to see 80 million or so muslim turks join the eu.
Here are some topics you can pick from:
Jobs, crime, language, growth of government, strain on existing services, cultural impact, education, assimilation, political power via Votes. Are there any concerns for you.
Turkey has a better standard of living than many asiatic nations, would the turkish people readily open their doors to millions from there?
Avi
March 7th, 2013 at 4:40 pm
Thomas Sm:
I don't like Islamohysteria but it is understandable that some Europeans would like Europe to remain Christian.
————————————————————————————————————————-
Is that so? Prey tell, how do you feel about Jews in Europe? Surely, they are tainting your Christian purity.
But who knows, perhaps you're another Neo-Nazi who is just waiting for the right moment to finish what Hitler started.
Either way, I can smell your racism through my computer screen.
———————————————————————————————————-
After all, you will have trouble starting churches in Turkey!
———————————————————————————————————-
Nice propaganda.
By the way, how is religious freedom doing in Switzerland? Are you still preventing Moslems from building mosques?
Surely, you're busy printing posters likening Mosque minarates to missiles.
richard vajs
March 7th, 2013 at 4:45 pm
I was in Turkey for about a month – long enough to learn that the average Turk is actually anti-Arab —– and, most surprisingly, the average Turk sees little difference between Arabs and Israelis; to him, it is funny that they hate each other, but are so alike.
Axle
March 7th, 2013 at 8:57 pm
Baz,
Here's something right out of .. you guessed it .. err … books.
Here are some facts regarding turkey that may say thing or two about "values". Who knows, it might efen be concerning for some:
Human rights in Turkey have been the subject of much controversy and international condemnation. Between 1998 and 2008 the European Court of Human Rights made more than 1,600 judgements against Turkey for human rights violations, particularly the right to life and freedom from torture. Other issues such as Kurdish rights, women's rights and press freedom have also attracted controversy. Turkey's human rights record continues to be a significant obstacle to future membership of the EU.[63] According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, the Turkish government has waged one of the world's biggest crackdowns on press freedoms. A large number of journalists have been arrested using charges of terrorism and anti-state activities such as theErgenekon and Balyoz cases, while thousands have been investigated on charges such as "denigrating Turkishness" in an effort to sow self-censorship. As of 2012, CPJ identified 76 journalists in jail, including 61 directly held for their published work, more than Iran, Eritrea and China.[64] A former U.S. State Department spokesman, Philip J. Crowley, said that the United States had "broad concerns about trends involving intimidation of journalists in Turkey.
Bianca
March 7th, 2013 at 9:28 pm
Based on many facts on the ground, this does not ring true to me. He is not anybody's project. Islamists are not the problem, but the generals. At least — not yet. There are two kinds of Sunni divisions today. Nationalists, like Turkish or Moslem Brotherhood are bad for empire. If economy is doing good, and people are united on the basis of religion and external enemy is identified — good luck to any empire getting them controlled. On the other hand, Saudi Wahhabi are the creation of the House of Saud and US. With the authority of Mecca, Wahhabis chose Salafists, the old fundamentalists — rigid, cruel, extreme — to spread "the right faith" to the world's poor moslems. They DO NOT believe in national governments, but are conrolled by Mecca. With US help, Saudi money and Wahhabi missionaries THE WEST is creating the armies of zombies. They are USEFULL. Be that in Russia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya or Syria, Iraq or way before that Bosnia and Kosovo. And now in Egypt and Turkey to undermine NATIONALISTIC governments. Hint, Moslem Brotherhood are being challenged by Saudi Salafists today. This is a process of creating a moslem Vatican.
Bianca
March 7th, 2013 at 9:34 pm
You seem to be mixing up many apples, oranges and carrots. The cleptocracies are created by various "revolutions" engineered by the West, and are ruled by the people West put in place. They are meant to do what they are doing, that is, rob the country of all of their assets, get some rich, and masses of poor. Then declare it all the fault of the "Balkan kleptocracies", as if we have nothing to do with them. We chose each and every one of them for the obedience they showed. The only guy not under control is the president of Republica Srpska, and the big time push is now in place to topple him. The HINT? He actually made economy work, as opposed to the western darlings in the Moslem-Croat federation that is broke. So, he has to go. Naturally, he will be accused of corruption and being rich. How tiresome are the worn out imperial tools.
Bianca
March 7th, 2013 at 9:41 pm
Well, you are slightly biased, so the bias is build in. The Greece made fatal mistake. Trusted Goldman Saks with the swindle of the century, and is paying the price. Turkey was much smarter. It is still trading with Iran, and has a robust economic relationship with Russia and China. Without Russian energy, their economic engine would not have succeeded. Turkey has as of June 2012 been accepted into Shanghai Cooperation Organization, on the first entry level, Partner in Dialogue. Without the trade with the six of these countries, where would Turkey be? And what often does not get into statistics is the volume of construction business that Turkey gets in Russia, or the volume of tourism from Russia. Yes, Turkey is doing well, but it has nothing to do with the Imperial values. But being an empire once has its advantages. Turkey has a tradition of diplomacy and ability to take advantage of its supremely important geographic location — and make the most of it. But let us not forget — Greece put trust in wrong friends.
Bianca
March 7th, 2013 at 9:44 pm
The gentleman protests too much.
Bianca
March 7th, 2013 at 9:53 pm
Let's get real. Turkey is NATO country, and need not get under Brussels thumb to serve the Western interests. On the other hand, strategically important Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary were promptly put into EU, because that was the ONLY way these countries were going to agree to join NATO. Well, they have calculated wrong. Being EU member does not mean you will get all the rights of membership. These countries STILL do not have basic rights, but have all the negatives of EU, that is, were forced to sell out all their industries and any assets of value. Now, they are destitute, and DEFINTELY in worse shape then they have ever been as part of the Russian block. Even today, they still live of whatever was developed then. Today, without Russian nuclear power plant, where would they be? As it is under American pressure they cancelled a deal with Russia to expend and modernize the plant to latest standards. And when the electric bill jumped — the government fell. People have had enough of European illusion, sinking of their economy and the huge loss of young people without perspective. Let's get real, the Western economic model is failing, and not only in those that are at the bottom.
eric siverson
March 7th, 2013 at 10:05 pm
I recently seen a corruption index where countries were rated as more corrupt or less corrupt . Finland was rated as the least corrupt and Somolia was close to the most corrupt . the United States was rated with a fairly low level of corruption . It just dawned on me if we took into consideration Ponzi finance on the part of the government as a way to stay ahead of the bill collectors . If we might not get a complete reversal in our corruption index . Ponzi finance is always considered to be corruption when it is done by anyone accept a government .
conumishu
March 7th, 2013 at 10:30 pm
Not at all. EU ruined the economy and then picked all the juicy parts for cheap. Also, before entering the organization the country had to accept all the demands (mainly to open the market without any protection) while having none of the (supposed) benefits.
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
—–
A friend of Turkey surely won't wish it is brought into the strangling web weaved in Brussels.
Thomas Sm
March 8th, 2013 at 3:16 am
Remember the recent history of political Islam in Turkey. Necmettin Erbakan founded the National Order Party (MNP) in the early 70s. It is quickly banned. He founds the National Salvation Party (MSP) and participates in government – until a coup and it is banned again. Then he founds the Welfare Party, which grows quickly and wins a plurality in 1995. Erbakan becomes prime minister in a power sharing agreement – until the military forces him out and bans his party. Erbakan is banned from politics but supports the founding of the Virtue Party, which comes in third in 1999.
A couple years later, one of his more talented followers forms a different group, Justice & Development (AK). AK is pro-EU/pro-US/pro-NATO, the sort of Eurocommunism of political Islam. It is hard for me, but also for many political observers in Turkey and anywhere else, to see this as anything but a cynical realisation that this is how they obtain power. Anyway, they rose extremely quickly – and with Western approval. I do not know the details of their funding or media coverage, but I imagine after 2001 it was far more generous than the Virtue Party's.
Now they've arrested the generals who were any threat to their government. Maybe they are right in doing so. I am not defending Kemalism – and I prefer the religious Turks I've met to the secular ones. The EU and US appear to be behind AK in its domestic struggles, and I strongly believe all of the above shows it is an Islamo-democratic project.
The Muslim Brotherhood is working within the AK party in Turkey, which, itself, is offered as a model by the globalists to budding governments in North Africa. Ergo, the Muslim Brotherhood in Turkey, given a chance now, backs the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria. That is the threat. I do not think Salafism is a problem in Turkey and the Salafis fighting in Syria are probably almost 100% imported. In any case, MB and the Sauds are fighting together!
Thomas Sm
March 8th, 2013 at 3:19 am
If you think Social Security is a mass Ponzi scheme, I think you would find that might be par for the course with governments. I think what would screw the US most is if you considered the non-enforcement of law on Wall Street and insider trading in the corruption schemes. Truly, in that measure, the US is the most corrupt country in the world, probably followed by the UK. If you just look at bribes, then it is relatively low (but falling in the rankings fast!).
Phil Giraldi
March 8th, 2013 at 4:42 am
Axle – I never said that I wanted 80 million Turks to join the EU. It will never happen anyway. BTW I was NEVER a CIA analyst. I was an operations officer.
Jane
March 8th, 2013 at 10:05 am
Anyway you slice it, the forming of the EU was a disastrous experiment that has failed abysmally. It was hatched by the globalists as a way to centralize banks and gut and strip thel sovereign wealth from the member states – as we have daily proof with financial and economic reports from the toppling Eurozone! I don't care how they tried to sell the advantages of membership, if you were to ask most citizens in these countries (who had NO say in whether they wanted their country to join), I think most would agree that they were better off under their own sovereignty and retaining their own sovereign currencies and individual cultures.This action was forced upon them to their detriment and has brought most of Europe to its knees. Only the elite benefited – yet again.
conumishu
March 8th, 2013 at 10:44 am
The nuclear problematic one is Bulgaria, Romania has western licensed nuclear reactors, but slowly sells the energy producing industry. For now the nuclear produced electricity will be only partially privatized. Of course, it makes absolutely no sense since it is profitable and there's not much need to increase production when most of the industrial capacities have been drastically reduced.
The young people want to earn money and are willing to leave the country if necessary but they don't believe anymore the west is a garden of Eden filled with good intentions and bursting with honest people. They look at employers with extreme cynicism. Western corporations, who pay slightly better the qualified ones, have turned into sweatshops where there's no love lost between the employers and employees and already some of the young people ponder if no-life left for themselves is worth some extra cash. While "everyone for himself" through any means turns the society into a jungle, the reduction in self-deluding (despite the incessant propaganda and globalist views instilled in the educational system) may prove a good thing.
conumishu
March 8th, 2013 at 10:50 am
Europe is Christian in its "substance" but EU is anything but a Christian friendly organization. And I'm not thinking about the separation between church and state, I'm thinking about the overt anti-Christian attitudes you can find at any level in the euro-imperial apparatus.
Thomas Sm
March 8th, 2013 at 12:17 pm
You are right. But it is the EU élites who want Turkey to join. I was talking about individual citizens, which would include many people who are not practising Christians but want Europe to preserve a Christian heritage.
Thomas Sm
March 8th, 2013 at 12:27 pm
Nobody's interested in the 'everyone is a racist, anti-Semite, or Islamophobe' act, but if you want an answer …
I do not mind Muslims. I hate the neocon propaganda that is directly solely at Muslims. However, I believe in limited and controlled immigration as a principle, and I think that Europe should retain its Christian character, which I believe is threatened far more by atheists than Islam anyway, but that is another issue. Note there are neocons as well as more liberal Zionists who will say that the US has to have unlimited immigration, at least from East Asia and Latin America, the EU should have mostly open borders and free labour mobility, advanced countries have to be fully secular and treat all religions the same, etc., but Muslim immigrants alone are some evil threat and Israel alone is allowed to apply quasi-Nazi racial laws and be an ethnonationalist state with a dominant religion.
I find that that position is racist. But saying you are racist if you do not have free immigration or treat all foreign and minority religions the same as the dominant national tradition is stupid.
As for the treatment of minority religion, no, the situation in Switzerland and Turkey is not quite the same. Switzerland forbids minarets, I believe. Turkey nationalised churches and ethnically cleansed minorities. Now the purge is over and Christianity is not illegal but there are huge barriers in practising. I think it is bad when far-right politicians try to ban the construction of *any mosque*, but good to not allow the Saudi Wahabbis to fund mega-mosques, as they are known to do.
In addition to that, there is the fact that Christianity was in Turkey before Islam (and is the site of many holy places!!!) whereas Islam was totally foreign to Switzerland until a few decades ago.
See the difference :) ?
Thomas Sm
March 8th, 2013 at 12:33 pm
I agree that it is a fake conflict to a degree – since Israel remains a close ally of Turkey. And I know Syria is ultimately about Iran…
But are you trying to say that any semblance of conflict between Erdogan and Israel has been set-up just to increase Turkey's popularity and give it leverage during the so-called 'Arab Spring'?
And are you claiming Likud is sponsored by Qatar? You think the Qataris are so afraid of Tehran they use their oil money for Bibi? Sources?
Thomas Sm
March 8th, 2013 at 12:38 pm
I don't think Dreher is a committed apologist for Israel…I think Dreher has a mediocre IQ and is very emotional – as easily swayed and shocked by mere accusations of racism as a middle-school kid.
I think TAC is still relatively pro-Palestinian, which in America means roughly neutral. Dreher just likes to immediately jump on bandwagons concerning racism, anti-Semitism, and sexual scandals.
Guest
March 8th, 2013 at 3:16 pm
Is AmConMag going to publish this?
PeacefulProsperity
March 8th, 2013 at 4:26 pm
Here:
"The inflation is countered by a long measures of both legal and illegal methods and means, but the US Dollar began its death agony in 2007. In 2007 the government of Qatar sent USD 10 billion to the Muslim Brotherhood based freedom and justice party of Turkey´s Prime Minister R. Tayyip Erdogan via Turkeys´s Foreign Minister Davotoglu. The money was earmarked for preparing the Turkish Muslim Brotherhood and Syria´s Muslin Brotherhood for a coming, covert war on Syria. The primary goal for Qatar was to prevent the completion of the Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian pipeline by all means and at all cost." http://nsnbc.me/2013/02/27/the-dynamics-of-the-cr…
"Netanyahu’s and Yisrael Beiteinu campaigns funded by Qatar" http://www.voltairenet.org/article177297.html
"Syria, Turkey, Israel and a Greater Middle East Energy War"
"Little noted was the fact that at the same day as Turkey launched her over-proportional response in the form of a military attack on Syrian territory, one which was still ongoing as of this writing, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) undertook what was apparently an action to divert Syria’s attention from Turkey and to create the horror scenario of a two-front war just as Germany faced in two world wars."
"The significant question to be asked at this point is what could bind Israel, Turkey, Qatar in a form of unholy alliance on the one side, and Assad’s Syria, Iran, Russia and China on the other side, in such deadly confrontation over the political future of Syria? One answer is energy geopolitics." http://www.voltairenet.org/article176200.html
"There’s a deal being struck between Israel, Turkey and the EU to transform Syria into three states, so that the issue of the Golan Heightsa as well as Syria. So there won’t be any state that will have armed forces capable of confronting Israel." http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-new… http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2011/10/25/… http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/12/30/press-tv-… http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-nato-israel-agend… http://news.antiwar.com/2013/02/18/israel-announc…
PeacefulProsperity
March 8th, 2013 at 4:37 pm
"but Muslim immigrants alone are some evil threat"
It has been designed and planned by MI6 and other services long time ago. Radical islamists are almost 100% salafis and takfiris ("military wings") funded by brutal GCC wahabi regimes.
You (and hopefully every honest, good person) need to understand that Zionism, Wahabism and Muslim Brotherhood (a political wing) all have been British imperial projects from the very beginning.
"islamic terrorism" is a Operation GLADIO redux ("leftist terrorism") used as a part of the "divide and conqer" strategy and a scare tactic.
csmallo
March 8th, 2013 at 5:10 pm
Tax evasion is a great American tradition.
csmallo
March 8th, 2013 at 5:13 pm
I have no problem at all with Israel, other than the fact that the welfare gravy train from DC to Tel Aviv is never ending. Let Israel and the rest of the world do what they want,. I am just damn tired of paying for it. It is time for American politicians to put the interests of the United States ahead of those of an alien culture on the other side of the world. It is time we ended dual citizenship for all other nations. You can be an American or you can have another nationality, not both.
PeacefulProsperity
March 8th, 2013 at 5:26 pm
I mean that the goal has been to subvert Islam.
PeacefulProsperity
March 8th, 2013 at 6:01 pm
"n enemy that was no longer under the leadership of an ailing Osama Bin Laden who had to dye twice before NATO propaganda experts would finally let him rest in peace. The enemy came increasingly under the leadership of a man of many names. A man who had been groomed into position for decades. One of the names he uses, besides Hasadi, Hasidi and a cohort of others, is Abdelhakim Belhadj. The Belhadj, who had fought US troops in Afghanistan, murdered Serbs in Yugoslavia, organized the murder of US troops in Iraq to create a pretext for the continued occupation of the country by the USA and other jobs.
A man who without doubt is one of NATO Intelligence highest ranking mercenary officers. A man who is now in command of NATO´s new friends in Libya and Syria as the commander of the Tripoli Military Counsel (19) and the NATO liaison to the Free Syrian Army.(20) Abdelhakim Belhadj, who according to historian Webster Griffin Tarpley and former Spanish Prime Minister Aznar also has been involved in the Madrid Train Bombings that killed scores of innocent Spanish civilians and facilitated Spain´s continued participation in the “war on terror“. (ibid.)"
"Mavi Marmara and the Gaza Freedom Flotilla. The most deceptive false flag in contemporary history.
Many would say strangely enough, but I would suggest to say not surprisingly; the top NATO Intelligence Operative Abdelhakim Belhadj has also been on board of the Turkish registered Gaza Freedom Flotilla vessel Mavi Marmara (21)"
"After the terrible events on board of the vessel, which were traumatizing for many, it must be even more traumatizing to learn that their courage and integrity has been cynically abused by the Turkish and Israeli intelligence services, NATO, and parts of the governments of Israel and Turkey. "
"What many analysts have been asking themselves long before the Mavi Marmara left port was how and why the Turkish government seemed to significantly change its public policy towards Israel by materially and politically supporting the Gaza Freedom Flotilla. The operand word that was the giveaway was “public”.
Turkey and Israel may at times be adversaries in international and Middle East affairs, but none of these diplomatic differences could cover over the fact that Turkey is Israels closest ally in the Middle East. "
"That Erdogan´s speech and the diplomatic response was nothing but a deception is also strongly supported by the fact that relations with Israel were normalized only weeks after Erdogan´s grand standing charade of solidarity with the People of Palestine.
On 25 January 2012 nsnbc received information from a reliable Palestinian Intelligence Source, known to nsnbc. The Palestinian who is resident in Turkey, confirmed that an article, stating that Abdelhakim Belhadj had been on board the Mavi Marmara (27) was indeed correct. He also drew attention to the question how it could be that all of the persons that were murdered by Israeli troops on the Mavi Marmara were Turkish citizens. There were many people from many nationalities on board, the situation on board was chaotic. How, and particularly why would Israel target nine Turkish citizens ? Because the IDF troops had been well informed about the situation on board, and because nine members of the Muslim Brotherhood in Turkey, who were opposed to the Muslim Brotherhood´s involvement in the armed insurgency into Syria were ensnared into participating in a non-violent activity against Israel. The agent who co-ordinated the NATO / Mossad Operation was Abdelhakim Belhadj, who is now in charge of NATO´s training of the so called “Free Syrian Army“." http://nsnbc.me/2012/02/02/gladio-bin-laden-to-er…
3/8/13 Philip Giraldi | The Scott Horton Show
March 8th, 2013 at 7:12 pm
[...] for the National Interest, discusses the backlash against Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan for daring to lump Zionism together with fascism and anti-Semitism in the ‘odious ideology’ category; how Mustafa Kemal Ataturk’s monocultural, [...]
Axle
March 8th, 2013 at 11:52 pm
Giraldi,
Fair enough. I agree it will probably never happen anyway. I still believe you are one of the best analysts of geopolitics and strategic positioning I have come across on antiwar.com. I felt perhaps this piece was less so in both regards and over-reaching in a few areas.
That said, I cant wait for your next article.
Best
Dave
March 9th, 2013 at 8:12 pm
Apparently, Mr. Giraldi feels compelled to be pro-Turkish because Turkey is (temporarily) anti-Zionist (even as Turkey bus weapons from Israel and does billions in trade with Isreal).
Turkey is not entitled to speak out about human rights violations anywhere, given its own miserable and well-known record involving torture, denial of cultural rights, genocide, repression of Christians, and the jailing and intimidation of journalists.
So go ahead and hold up Turkey as some sort of paragon of virtue, and lose your credibility in the meantime, Phil.