Three weeks ago, the Zionist Organization of America gave what it called its highest honor to former President Donald Trump. According to Morton Klein, who runs the Z.O.A., the award commemorated Trump as the “best friend Israel ever had in the White House.” Last week, at Mar-a-Lago, Trump had dinner with Ye—formerly known as Kanye West—and the white supremacist Nick Fuentes, setting off the biggest firestorm over Trump’s bigotry since his response to the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville (which Fuentes attended).
After Trump’s dinner with Fuentes, Klein told the Times, “I have become very frightened for my people.” He added, “Donald Trump is not an antisemite. He loves Israel. He loves Jews. But he mainstreams, he legitimizes Jew-hatred and Jew-haters. And this scares me.” A child of Holocaust survivors who was born at a displaced-persons camp in Germany, Klein became an economist before eventually transitioning into pro-Israel activism. He took over the Z.O.A., which was founded in 1897 and is the oldest Zionist organization in America, in 1993. Since then, he has hewed to a hard-right line, opposing a Palestinian state and frequently supporting right-wing politicians in America who favor right-wing policies in Israel.
I recently spoke by phone with Klein. During our conversation, which has been edited for length and clarity, we discussed his confusion over Trump’s dinner, why Trump has got close to bigots in recent weeks, and Klein’s questions about Barack Obama’s birthplace.
Can you just walk me through the past few weeks, and the medal you awarded to Trump, and why it’s important?
Yes. The Z.O.A.’s highest award, rarely given, is the Theodor Herzl Gold Medallion. We’ve only given it to Lord Balfour—
Of the Balfour Declaration.
That’s right. Of the Balfour Declaration. Winston Churchill, Harry Truman, David Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir, Menachem Begin—and I think that’s it.
Sheldon Adelson, too.
Oh, yeah, we did give it to Sheldon. That’s true. I forgot. This was given to people who’d done extraordinary work benefitting the Jewish state of Israel and the Jewish people. And of course Trump was the greatest President supporting Israel we’ve ever had. From moving the Embassy to Jerusalem to recognizing the Golan Heights as Israeli sovereign territory, to not giving any U.S. funds to the Palestinian Authority as long as they pay Arabs to murder Jews—which they continue to do. It’s shocking. Being the first President to pray at the Western Wall. Because he was such an extraordinary President, we thought—especially because no Jewish organization that we’re aware of honored him to say thank you—we felt it morally incumbent upon us to say thank you.
Someone had to do it.
And people told us he’d never show up. Well, he showed up, and, when he walked in, over a thousand people gave him a five-minute standing ovation. We turned people away, because there was no more room. We couldn’t sell any more tickets.
During his speech, there were constant standing ovations. Constant. It was an electric evening. I never had so many people tell me that it was the greatest dinner we’ve ever had. And we’ve had extraordinary dinners. I mean, we’ve had Jon Voight, Mike Pompeo, Ice Cube—the rapper—Ted Cruz. Every dinner we have is extraordinary. And people said this was the best ever. And it was.
You had Ice Cube and Jon Voight?
I had Ice Cube and Jon Voight. Ice Cube is my friend. In his talk to us, he condemned anti-Semitism.
Doesn’t Ice Cube have some anti-Semitism in his past?
Well, in the nineties, in one of his rap records, he said some things that clearly were anti-Semitic.
Oh, I thought he’d posted some things that were anti-Semitic more recently.
Well, he posted pictures saying “Happy birthday” to Louis Farrakhan in the last couple of years—which is horrible. And I told him so. [Ice Cube posted numerous anti-Semitic memes on social media in 2020, several months before the dinner.]
But he is a supporter of Israel?
That’s what he tells me. And, look, he let us honor him at our dinner.
Well, if Ice Cube and Jon Voight can come together to kill that snake in “Anaconda,” it’s good that they can also come together to support Israel.
You saw that movie?
Yeah.
I thought I was the only one who saw that movie.
You traced this long arc of everyone from Churchill to Sheldon Adelson who got the medal. This month, we saw Trump’s arc, from getting the award to unfortunately having dinner with a neo-Nazi. How did that come about?
Oh, I don’t know. I mean, I find it deplorable that he had dinner with an overt anti-Semite like Kanye West—Ye, I mean—who only a month ago called for the death of all Jews, for God’s sake.
So, how do you understand this? You said that Trump was a huge friend of the Jewish people.
You know what? I can’t answer that. It makes no sense. Somebody who’s such an extraordinary friend of Israel, whose daughter is an Orthodox Jew, whose grandchildren are Orthodox Jews—I cannot explain why he would want to have dinner with an overt anti-Semite and dinner with a white-supremacist Jew-hater, an ugly, ugly scum like Nick Fuentes. And Trump says, “I didn’t know who it was.” Even if I take him at his word, that he didn’t know who Fuentes was, fine, now he knows. Why doesn’t he say, “Fuentes is a despicable scum whose beliefs have no place in the United States of America”?
One possible answer is that he’s sympathetic to those views, as evidenced by the fact that he didn’t want to distance himself or really go after the people who marched at Charlottesville. And one of those people was Nick Fuentes. That might be an answer.
No, no. I can’t believe that. Somebody who’s as hostile to Jews and Israel as Fuentes and Kanye are would never do all the extraordinary things for Israel. Trump didn’t have to do all those things. It was way beyond the call of duty.
Do you think that there could be people who, for whatever reason, have sympathies with Israel but don’t like Jews much?
I think it’s highly unlikely. If you like Israel, which is the Jewish state filled with Jews, how can you hate Jews? Can you like Italy and hate Italians? Can you like Spain and hate Spanish people? It’s beyond my comprehension that that’s a possibility.
It’s possible that Trump doesn’t think too hard about Israel aside from that he’s popular there.
Look, when he came, he said, “I hate wearing tuxedos. I’m wearing a tuxedo tonight because I wanted to wear it in honor of Israel and the Jewish people.”
At your dinner?
And he got a standing ovation when he said that.
Tough crowd.
“I’m wearing it in honor of Israel and the Jewish people.”
I mentioned Charlottesville, and Trump has a long history of—
Wait, what did he do at Charlottesville that was inappropriate? What did he do?
Well, he seemed very grumpy about criticizing the people who—
Well, what do you mean? Did you read his speech? He condemned in his speech neo-Nazis and white supremacists, saying that they’re despicable and have no place in America.
We both know that it took him a while to do that. He looked like he was being tortured while he did it. And then he condemned people on “both sides.”
No, no, no. He said that there are fine people on the side of keeping the statue up and fine people among those who want to tear it down.
He was talking about both sides of the demonstrations, one of which included people marching through the streets saying, “Jews will not replace us.”
Are you trying to tell me that you think Donald Trump said that there are fine people among Nazis? Is that what you’re telling me? No one would ever say that there are fine people among Nazis. No one. “There are fine people among the Ku Klux Klan”? Nobody would say that.
But you just said that he is clearly friends with Kanye West, who you just said doesn’t like Jews. Don’t we know the answer to this question already?
I cannot explain his friendship with Kanye West. Now, Kanye West is a Black conservative, so obviously that’s something that Trump appreciates. Maybe he thinks his being friends with this very well-known Black conservative will help him politically in getting votes next time he runs for an election.
Possibly he didn’t want to say bad things about Nazis because he thought they would give him votes for the next election, too. That’s all I’m suggesting.
If that were the case, I would really attack Trump. But, look, he refuses to condemn Fuentes and Ye, and we strongly criticize him for that. We use the word “demand.” We’re demanding that he condemn these people as despicable, odious human beings. He hasn’t done it. And that’s very disappointing.
How do you think about Trump’s feelings toward Jews in the context of what he has said about other groups: African Americans, Muslims, Mexicans, and so on?
Well, what did he say? You have to tell me what he said.
Well, he said that President Obama was not born in the United States. He said a judge who had Mexican heritage couldn’t fairly rule on a case, and he said Muslims should be banned from America.
In Obama’s own book, which I have, it says on the cover that he was born in Kenya. [The mistake was in promotional material about Obama released by his literary agency in 1991.] I mean, he allowed them to lie? And why? I asked the governor of Hawaii why she wasn’t releasing the birth certificate when this was a big controversy. She said, “He won’t let me.” [Linda Lingle, Hawaii’s Republican governor at the time, told me that she has “no recollection of such a conversation.” Obama shared a copy of the certificate publicly and its authenticity has been repeatedly confirmed by state officials.] What’s that noise?
It’s just a truck.
You are not in a room?
I’m standing outside. Apologies.
Why are you doing this outside?
It got loud in the room I was in. I apologize.
The governor of Hawaii——
Honestly, I mean, you really don’t have to do this. You’re just going to cause trouble and embarrassment for yourself.
Cause trouble? Sir. I’m sorry, sir, you don’t tell me what to say. I’m giving facts. [Klein called me later in the day to say, “I believe Barack Obama was born in the United States.”]
I’m saying that you don’t have to.
I am giving you facts. Why didn’t Obama release his birth certificate when he was being challenged? All I’m saying is that it’s very suspicious. Why does it say it in his own book?
His literary agent admitted to making a fact-checking mistake. You think you’ve uncovered some great plot here?
I don’t know anything. I find it peculiar—that’s all.
I mentioned wanting to ban Muslims from America. I mentioned saying that a judge—
Ban Muslims? Wait, sir. He wanted to ban Muslims? He wanted to ban people from countries that have a disproportionate number of terrorists.
No, he originally called for a broad ban that went beyond the seven countries that they eventually settled on.
He wanted to not allow people from countries—
O.K., so—
Sir, do you want me to answer, or you want to interview yourself? I don’t care. I don’t need this. I mean, if you’re interested in my answers, I’ll give them to you. If you’re not interested, we can hang up.
Go on.
He said it was banning people from countries which have an inordinate amount of terrorism and countries where the people are not vetted. We don’t know who they are. We can’t get information about them. And he said he wanted to ban them. Countries like Libya, Iraq, and Syria. It wasn’t Muslims, it was terrorism. The issue was terrorism.
In 2015, Trump called for “a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.”
Well, that was not my understanding. If he said, “We want to ban all Muslims coming to America,” I would condemn and repudiate that position. If that’s what he said, I don’t know where he said that. If he said that, I can then repudiate him for saying that. That’s simply unacceptable. Intolerable.
O.K. He said that a judge of Mexican descent couldn’t rule fairly on a case. Trump has a long history of this stuff. We don’t need to go through all of it. I’m just curious if you thought that that long history had anything to do with his recent dinners with anti-Semites?
Yeah, the thing about the Mexican judge—that was troubling. I remember that, you’re reminding me of that. I forgot about it. That certainly is troubling as well. No, look, he’s clearly a flawed person. That’s clearly a flawed person. But my issue as head of the Zionist Organization of America is looking to promote what’s good for Israel and the Jewish people. And, when it comes to that, he’s been fabulous. If in fact what you’re saying is accurate, and I trust that it is, those are unacceptable policies that he was promoting and unacceptable statements he made. Absolutely.
Is it possible that right-wing figures in America, who may advance certain agendas supported by right-wing governments in Israel, might be making alliances with people in the United States that would be dangerous for American Jews? Is that something that you think about?
I would think that would be horrible. No, that’s unacceptable and intolerable and disgraceful. No, I would fight against that.
Do you feel like you couldn’t support Trump for President again unless he denounces these things?
We’re a 501(c)(3), so I can’t support or oppose any candidate for office. I can’t answer that. But I thought you wanted to discuss anti-Semitism.
Is there anything else you would like to say about fighting anti-Semitism more broadly?
I think one of the reasons that Jew-hatred and Israel-bashing has been legitimized and mainstreamed is that there have been no negative consequences for the dozen or so overt Jew-haters in Congress: Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, A.O.C., Ayanna Pressley, Betty McCollum, Cori Bush, Jamaal Bowman, and others. A year ago, Joe Biden made a speech profusely praising Rashida Tlaib. I mean, imagine if somebody would praise David Duke. We’d all go crazy, as we should.
Do you think Rashida Tlaib and David Duke are sort of in the same—
Yes. They’re both overt Jew-haters. That’s correct.
What was her overt Jew-hatred?
“We should stop funding Israel. We should boycott Israel. Israel is not an ally. We should have nothing to do with Israel.”
That’s overt Jew-hatred of the David Duke variety?
Yeah, it’s overtly Jew-hatred. At her office—which I went into—on her world map where there is Israel, she put a piece of paper over it that says “Palestine.” She’s an overt Jew-hater.
It seems like your definition of anti-Semitism relates very closely to how much support people give to Israel. Is that fair?
Not support. You don’t have to support Israel at all. That doesn’t make you an anti-Semite. Say anything about Israel. But if you condemn Mexico, I assure you you have problems with Mexicans. If you condemn France—inappropriately condemn, not appropriate. I mean, obviously there’s legitimate criticism for all countries.
Oh, O.K. Well, I guess it comes down to what you consider inappropriate versus appropriate criticism, then.
Well, if you say Israel’s a Nazi state, then you’re a Jew-hater. Of course it’s not a Nazi state. If you say Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians, when in fact the population of Palestinians since Israel was established has risen dramatically, then of course you’re a Jew-hater. So I think it would be important to have really had serious consequences for the Jew-haters in Congress. ♦