Esther Perel on How to Get Through Quarantine with an Intact Relationship

[chiming]

[Esther] This is such a petri dish moment to really look

at how some couples under confinement,

all the cracks will begin to appear,

and others, it's all the light that comes through the cracks

that will begin to appear.

[calm guitar music]

You know, something I've noticed in your work,

from reading your books, listening to your podcast,

is that you say that one of the strains on modern couples

is that so much is expected of our partner now

that used to be sort of diffused around communities.

This has brought that into such high relief.

Couples are sort of isolated with themselves more than ever

to do all those tasks at once.

They are definitely isolated around the tasks.

They don't have to be isolated around the support.

I think that really what is essential at this moment,

especially when we have this one person to give us

what an entire village should be providing,

or an entire community,

is that we really create boundaries, routines, and rituals.

So, the boundaries really means that there needs to be,

as best as people can, a separation

between daytime and evening, week time and weekend,

working time and idle time, family time and individual time.

The routine that creates a structure,

that brings a certain sense of order

in a world that feels so chaotic and so unsure, is crucial.

The ritual is what separates the ordinary and the mundane

from something that becomes more elevated, more separated,

more sacred.

All of these three things are essential,

management of stress and creation of freedom

and then meaning for people, actually.

Something I've been hearing from some of my friends

is that being at home with their partner

has made some of that invisible work

that their partner took for granted quite visible.

All of these things that you have, kind of, during the day,

when you don't see your partner in their element,

or whatever they're doing, you're now suddenly seeing,

have you seen that affecting couples at all?

Yes, but it affects them in very interesting ways.

So this notion that we are getting the view

of the other person, what is happening in this expanded view

of ourselves and of our partners, can go in two directions.

In one direction, you say, I'm curious, I'm observing,

I'm noticing, that's interesting, tell me more,

I never knew, I really appreciate it,

I realize how invisible I was to it,

how clueless I was, how I let you do the whole thing.

And it becomes really a source of connection.

In the other version, it becomes a source of blame.

So, it's not an appreciative thing, it becomes a,

You want me to tell you how much I've been doing?

I just did the laundry, I just brought the sheets,

I just folded the towels, I just cleaned the sinks,

I do more, and I feel worse, and you owe me more,

and I am the victim, and I'm unappreciated.

And this is one of those things

that really, people have to pay attention to, you know?

You start your day, or you live in your relationship,

and you just say, No, no, no, no, no!

You know?

Do ten of those.

Versus, Yes, yes, yes, yes!

You know?

Hard, though, and I mean, that brings me to the question

of how people should fight?

Because I think, you know,

couples are going to get into arguments and logjams

during this time, but you literally can't walk away.

I mean, my sort of fight mentality is

I'm kind of like a flight person, it's like,

I will confront for as long as I feel I can,

and then I take a long walk.

[Esther] Then you're out.

Can't do that here.

If your type of fighting ends in flight

and you just shut down and you go on silence,

you can do that mode, [Rachel laughs]

you know, in all circumstances.

You don't need to have a door, you know, to leave the house,

you can leave, and be, you know, just somewhere there

without being absolutely present, you know.

I think that couples, by definition,

go through harmony, disharmony, and repair.

I don't do this.

This is the dance.

Whatever is negative, I will highlight.

And whatever is positive, I will take for granted.

The positive is a given, the negative should be mentioned.

You know, if we made it on time,

it's because there was no traffic, and if we got there late,

it's because of you.

It's like the negative is attributed to the other person,

and the positive is just taken as,

that's the way it should be.

Why do I have to thank you for that?

You wanna change the other, you start by changing you.

What do you want the other to do for you?

Start by doing it for them.

First of all, A, you're modeling.

B, you're inciting a response in kind.

It is a feedback loop,

and it is a reinforcement of the positive

versus a reinforcement of the negative.

Three, make a request and not just a protest.

Tell him, I really wanted you to do this, I counted on you.

Can you do that by twelve o'clock today?

I want you to take care of this

and I want it to be out of my way.

Can we agree on that?

Fight from a place of enlightened self-interests,

says my friend Terry Real.

Wow. It's really, really sharp,

you know?

Rather than just to get it out of your system.

I wanted to get into sexuality a little bit,

under lockdown, and how you're seeing sexuality play out

among couples right now.

It's people are getting engaged,

and people are having babies,

and people are completely in abstinence mode.

It's all of it.

It is absolutely clear that under stress,

some people turn to sexuality as a way to self-soothe,

be it self-erotic stimulation, be it with a partner,

be it, you know, so the actual release is soothing

in and of itself, the touching of oneself,

the holding oneself, if one is alone,

or if one is with somebody.

And other people under stress completely shut down,

and that's the last thing they can think about,

because they're in survival mode,

and the anxiety is just too much, because we know

that a little bit of anxiety is a powerful aphrodisiac.

Too much anxiety is what may shut some people down.

I think something that's interesting right now

that I feel like is,

when you're with your partner all the time sometimes,

I mean, the mystery or the sense of like,

I've been away from you all day,

and now we're coming back together for dinner

or a date, or those kinds of things,

just absolutely go away.

How do you reignite the attraction

when you're always basically in the same room

as somebody else?

I may not be in the mood.

I'm not turned on,

I'm not walking around thinking about sex,

fantasizing, imagining it, anything.

But I am okay, I'm willing to be taken to a certain place.

And that notion that you start not from arousal,

and not from desire, but you start from willingness,

from just an openness, Let me be there and see,

and then let yourself be engaged in the experience,

and then maybe the desire actually comes,

which is true for many people, generally,

is even more so something that people need to keep in mind

at this moment.

I'm not always hungry.

You've cooked something, but it smells good.

Then I sit next to you, then I taste it with you,

then I actually take myself a plate.

Did I want it in the first place?

No, not at all.

But I got seduced into it.

I got taken by you, by the senses that really got awakened

and that made me then want more.

What's the one thing everybody can do daily

that could improve their relationship

while they're stuck together?

I think that the first thing I would say

is it's really important to normalize this.

You need to know that this is what happens under stress.

When people get into this stress like that,

they often will turn on each other,

and they will take it out on each other

because they don't feel

that they can control the bigger picture.

This is normal, first of all.

This is not just because your relationship is really

in bad shape.

There is,

that additional stress will create the fragmentation.

It exists in couples, and it exists in society.

Then, instead of fighting about it,

and competing about it,

and getting into the who has it worse here,

just basically admit it together.

It's an acknowledgement of what we are both experiencing.

And go from the I and you, to the we.

You know, what is this doing to us?

If you can think about that third entity

called the relationship, and you will do certain things

'cause the relationship needs it,

even if it's not what you need,

it will give you a very hopeful framework,

because when the relationship does well, so will you.

[peaceful music]